I'm looking to get a feel for how many of our forum guys use a form of head restraint/neck safety. So what ya got guys??
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I'm looking to get a feel for how many of our forum guys use a form of head restraint/neck safety. So what ya got guys??
Keith,
Thanks for the poll. Appropriate to me as I just backed my Reynard into the Road America wall at something over 100. Impact was on the left rear and provided for a rotating impact on the helmet. Cracked the helmet. The HANS definitely restricted the rotating motion on the head. Without it I am sure there would have been quite severe neck injury. As it was not even a stiff neck.
I'm a HANS user and glad to see how many other drivers are as well. As for the "collar", I remember a presentation by an orthopedic surgeon at Phoenix about 5-6 years ago when the HANS was first getting serious consideration in amatueur racing. I used to wear a collar until I heard him describe how it works as a fulcrum in a crash rather than an aid. That sold me and I tossed my collar in the trash that afternoon.
El Guapo sports a very stylish paisley ascot. For some time now, he has coveted a HANS device, but has yet to see one with a stylish paisley motif. Seriously, EG would like to get a HANS, but there always seems to be something else that takes priority. Anyone else who has fallen prey to this rationalization?
EG
Evidently 41% are in the same boat. :rolleyes:
i have a hans (2 years now) and it's never been a problem. separately, i tried to vote in the poll, but got a popup that says i'm not eligible. is that because i drive an s2? i didn't think we were too much of a problem :D
[size="1"][ October 01, 2004, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Keith Carter ][/size]
I decided to get some neck protection after a hard crash at VIR. I felt the Hans was priced a bit high so I purchsed a D-Cell system (just a variation of the Hutchins Device). I feel like it does a good job of restraining the motion of my head. It was $450
My only objection to the system is that I need help to fasten the helmet attach buckles sitting at the grid.
El Gaupo! You sound like me back in '03.
Shame shame. May the thorn of an agave cactus wake your sensibilities.
DaveW's impact this summer blew open my checkbook. He's 62 years young and walked away from a 100 mph nose-in impact. He strolls happily into work the next day. Ca-ching. I grabbed the purple pen and started writing a love poem to Mr. Hans.
It meant I had to skip one race. In the big scheme of things, it was not a significant loss.
It's easy to use the savings of not having to buy a $60,000 mouth-operated wheelchair as cost justification for the decision.
But, I didn't use that radical of an argument. I asked myself what would be the impact on my business if I spent two weeks stoved up from being real sore. The $1,400 was a no-brainer when compared to two weeks of not being able to roll out of bed, having to gingerly walk around, unable to work at 100%.
I think the Hans may actually be more important for us 55 and older guys than the young studs. Not because of the "big one" that might happen, but because a "little one" can sideline us for a long period of time.
I just looked back at a photo Carnut169 took of the grid at a non-points, little mickey mouse, regional event last month. 1/2 the field was sporting Hans. It was nothing close to that a year ago.
Back before the article published in Sports Car was put to press, I was contacted by the manufacturer(not to get in trouble) asking for a statement in regard to it's ability to protect in an impact. I was the only person to have sustained a heavy impact at the time and walk away from it. Little did we know the internal damage from the violent rotating of my mellon caused by the device straightening my head to my shoulders at impact. Those who know me may be laughing about now, but have no idea the change brought about from the spinning of my brain inside my skull. My wife hates the thing, as do I, and would have rather risked injuring my neck. I wish I never would have bought a neck device.
The main problem is there is no provision for the deceleration an a frontal impact from an angle. It rotates your headstraight, and then to a violent stop, like a dog running out of leash. All the automotive companies spend millions on software and testing in an effort to create crumple zones to decelerate the impact g's felt in the body. All racetracks use tire barriers in the bad spots to decelerate the impact. NASCAR and the IRL use the SAFER barrier to lessen the impact to the driver, not the car, the driver. Ralf's crash at Indy would have been much less severe had he hit the SAFER barrier, but missed it (he was wearing one). Close your eyes an picture slamming into that special wall we all have in the back of our minds without a gravel trap, or tire wall to soften the crash. That is what your brain feels when it hits the inside of your skull.
I will sound this into the hills for as long as I breathe.
I have a Hans and like it fine. I thought I would add that for some reason the 30 deg. would hit the back of my helmet (remember the angle is the angle of the back of your seat, not the angle of the Hans itself) The more upright you sit the more of an angle the back the device has. So I needed a 20 deg, and for some reason it is in the $800 range instead of $1100+. If you have clearance in back of your head for the Hans sitting a little more back, you save $. I asked if there was a functional difference if the device sat a little further from your helmet, and I was told there was none.
Had my HANS before I ever did one race lap.
Went ahead and threw down the 1400.00 for the Hans. I look at it like a cheap insurance policy!
Jon,
Let me understand this. You are saying that the abrupt stop of the rotation of your head (as limited by the HANS device) caused your brain to impact the inner cranium, thereby causing damage. At the same time, you are saying that without any device supporting or controlling your head's rotation, your neck muscles, cartilage and skeletal structure would have been strong enough to dampen that same rotational movement without damage to either brain or the neck? Sorry, I don't buy that.
Not being a physiologist, I would still imagine any rotating force that would lead to internal brain damage due to an abrupt stop would be well above that force needed to lead to severe neck or spinal injury if left uncontrolled. We will probably never know the truth. I choose to wear the HANS and proved its efficacy (in a high speed accident with rotational force) less than a month ago.
Now that I've found my way into this posting and read the poll results, I'm impressed to see how many are using a head and neck restraint. I am one, having an Isaac for the season just over which I like very much. It's the only head and neck device, to my knowledge, which addresses the concern of Mr Horgas. That is, it not only restrains the head, but decelerates it in a controlled fashion, progressive with the force of impact. It also can be used in any car, at any seating angle without modification. It's very easy to unlatch when used with the standard latch pins, allows for a convenient amount of "normal" head movement, vertical and side to side, and does not change the length or position of the shoulder harness belts.
Fleetdude: You should be aware that the Isaac device is not approved for SCCA Club Racing and is prohibited by the GCR.
What? The Issac is prohibited? Where did you find that?
The FastTrack clarification of a few months back. The Issac doens't meet the "There shall be a single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness." specified in GCR 20.4. This will also make sternum straps with separate buckles non-compliant
I noticed that in two of the four racing deaths two weekends ago in California it was implied that they were non-hans drivers dying of fatal head/neck injuries. (The other two had to do with rolling a convertible without a rollbar...)
I'll keep wearing my Hans.
OBTW, I adjusted the tethers shorter than factory spec, and am quite comfortable. This will also lessen the distance your head can rotate before the tethers tighten.
Its shocking to me that SCCA would rather you wear no head restraint over the Issac. I rented one a while back (no intention of bringing up the whole Issac vs Hans debate) and found it to be comfortable and easy to remove. I realize they want to make it quick and easy for the workers to get you out but prohibiting an Issac does not make sense... I think both sides of the before mentioned debate would agree that it was better than nothing.
I've posted this into the FF forum before - but I think it's worth doing again.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...will/crash.jpg
The picture is of me and my Royale RP31 hitting the tyre wall at Castle Combe (UK) back in about 1995 - I reckon at about 50mph. The belts were as tight as I could get them, and my head still hit the wheel - partly belt stretch, partly neck stretch. As you increase the speed of impact, the deceleration force for the same distance increases exponentially. This is bad news.
I had a very stiff neck for weeks, and suffered from various neck problems for a couple of years after - with very occasional recurrences even now. I still suffer from tingling in my left side. This is also bad news.
I was spurred into action following a friend's high-speed impact into the tyres at Laguna Seca after a rod-end broke. His head hit the wheel hard enough to bend it - with brand new belts fully tightened down.
I now have a HANS.. It is expensive, but I could not guarantee that I'd get off so lightly a second time!
James
James, great picture and story...thanks for sharing it again for the benefit of those who may not have seen it before.
I've worn a HANS device all year, never noticed that I had it on. I do feel better protected.
Frog, I'm intrigued that you've tightened the tethers...they do seem pretty loose to me although I sent my helmet back to Georgia and had the HANS folks do the installation. Is this just a gut feeling sort of thing on your part or is there some compelling engineering reason we should consider doing the same?
Regards,
Allan
Its shocking to me that SCCA would rather you wear no head restraint over the Issac.
Sean: SCCA did not make the decision to wear nothing rather than the ISAAC, it reminded us of the GCR requirements in 20.4.
Owners of ISAAC devices were sold a device that is non-compliant to the GCR, and it's a case of caveat emptor. There were proposals made to the CRB to remove this requirement, documented in FasTrak, and were denied. The Hutchens device, the Simpson device, and some other designs are compliant to 20.4, the ISAAC is not.
I did consider the ISAAC - but I wanted to keep a single release for the belts.
Given the number of times that I forget to disconnect the radio before getting out of the car, this seems like a good idea!
James
I’m with the Frog on this one. I’ve been wearing the HANS for 3 years now, and as previously stated, have had no problems adjusting to it. As for the tethers, I have mine adjusted so that when I lean my head forward I can feel the tethers stop my movement before full extension. The rationale being that if it’s looser than that, I’m going to get some “stretch” in an impact. This gives me about a 45-55 degree rotation to either side, but with peripheral vision, I have a full 180-degree angle of view.Quote:
Originally posted by Purple Frog:
OBTW, I adjusted the tethers shorter than factory spec, and am quite comfortable. This will also lessen the distance your head can rotate before the tethers tighten.
Not sure about anyone else, but one thing that I’ve noticed is several drivers who wear a HANS (both amateur and pro) have the tethers so loose that I doubt they would do any good in an impact.
My two cents worth.
I have been using my HANS all year in the zetec, and nolonger notice. I won't get back into a race car without, especially after pitting next curtis at watkins glen. Its a piece of equipment everyone should use.
When I got my Hans, I had the same question about the tethers seeming to be long when the length was set according to the instructions.
I called the Hans folks and it was explained to me that it was intentionally done that way and that the Hans ( this was a while ago and I my memory may be a bit foggy) is designed to move forward a bit when the belts stretch in an impact and that when that happens the tethers do tighten up and stop head movement before the design travel of the neck is excedded.
I put my helmet and Hans on, belted myself in the car, threw myself forward against the belts and the Hans did in fact stay in position relative to the belts, but the thehers went tight long before I ran out of "neck travel".
I may have not explained this very well, but it does work.
The following excerpts are from the HANS Owner's Manual FWIW:
Tether Length
The HANS is assembled with an approximately 6 inch (153 mm) tether length that is acceptable to most users and takes into consideration the type of helmet attachment being used. However, the tether length can be adjusted plus or minus ¾ inch (19 mm) for individual preference. The tether length should be long enough to allow motions of the head and helmet that are actually needed, but no more. Trial and error is needed to optimize the tether length preferred by a driver. Different tether lengths may be desired for different tracks. Please be aware that very short tethers do not increase safety.
Function
In a crash, the driver moves forward relative to the HANS, which is initially held by friction with the belts, until the tethers come straight, start to bear load, and pull the HANS along with the head and helmet. When the loads in the shoulder belts restrain the torso,the HANS restrains the head to stay with the torso. In this way, the tethers are in tension before the torso and head are restrained and differences in tether length are not significant to HANS performance. The only caution is to make sure that the tethers are not so long that the HANS will come rearward off the shoulders.
Guess my thought was that if you shorten the tethers x amount then they'll maybe arrest the movement of your head so early that your brain will impact the inside of your skull harder in an accident than if the tethers are more loose.
This is the sort of thing Jon was talking about earlier, although with rotation thrown into the mix.
I'm thinking the HANS folks have a fairly well thought out rationale for leaving the tethers a little on what I would consider to be the loose side. Some folks have short necks, some folks have long necks...maybe there's an optimized tether length to suit a range of variations.
It would be interesting to hear if Dr. Hubbard or someone else from HANS has some thoughts on this.
Regards,
Allan
OK, I should probably explain my last post. I haven't re-adjusted the tethers from the factory setting. Pulled out the tape measure and TOTAL length is 5 3/4", (or 5 1/2" from HANS to attachment) so within the factory spec. This setting allows me the amount of movement described in my post.Quote:
Tether Length
The HANS is assembled with an approximately 6 inch (153 mm) tether length that is acceptable to most users and takes into consideration the type of helmet attachment being used. However, the tether length can be adjusted plus or minus ¾ inch (19 mm) for individual preference. The tether length should be long enough to allow motions of the head and helmet that are actually needed, but no more. Trial and error is needed to optimize the tether length preferred by a driver. Different tether lengths may be desired for different tracks. Please be aware that very short tethers do not increase safety.
Maybe it's my imagination, but it seems to me that some drivers have them a lot looser than that, but hey, as the saying goes, "you pay your money and you take your chances". All things considered, I still won't get into a car without the HANS.
When setting my system up, I also worried about that 3/4" plus or minus allowance for varying factory tether length that they write about in the instructions.
I tried the factory 6" setting. Maybe it's because I'm real old, and real stiff, but 6" seemed too long in my car. I strapped into the car and had a crew member push my head forward trying to get the 6" setting to tighen up. Too hard to reach that point, even in that static test. So.. I set them at 5.25". Tried the same test. It still seemed like I would hurt my old stiff neck before they tightened up. I'm now happy at a little over 4.5".
Those instructions are very carefully written. It says you don't get any added safety benefit by running them tighter, but it also doesn't say that you lose any benefit by running them tighter.
A side benefit; late in a race at Roebling Road when my neck sometimes gets tired of that 10 seconds of constant G's at Turn 8... I can now "rest" my neck by holding my head with the straps.
For what it's worth, I bought a HANS shortly after I bought my FC. I've worn it every session, save for one, in the two years I have been racing. I went out for one practice session just to see what it was like without. It felt weird. Probably the same feeling you former non-HANS wearers felt the first few times wearing the HANS.
I won't get in a car without one now and will be wearing one when I run the enduro in November at Buttonwillow.
Here's a question (I know that its been discussed
before, but now that there are lots more people
using the HANS devices, there's a lot more
experience with them):
Anyway, I usually "crew myself" - to do that,
I must get in the car without my helmet, belt
myself in, put my helmet on and then finally
tighten my belts. Would it be possible to do
this with a HANS? Can the helmet/HANS be put
on after one is seated in the car?
Thanks,
John
The quick answer is yes. I am fortunate to have a crew to help me so I get in the car with helmet and HANS on, but have gotten in the car without the HANS and then put it on. It can be done...certainly not as easy as with help, but it can be done.
I know that when using the HANS your belt attachment point has to be about even with shoulders. on my RF94 that attachment point is in it's stock factory location which is much lower. Has anyone made the modification? Care to share any photos?
Thanks
Len
I was just on the HANS site and this was the last question in the FAQ.... Seemed appropriate:
"Does a HANS® cause my head to stop too quickly in an accident? That is to say, is it more likely that my brain could be injured by slamming into the inside of the front of my skull when wearing a HANS® device?"
No. While the brain is not securely fastened to the skull except across the lower brain where there are major nerves and blood vessels through the base of the skull, the brain is not free to move because it is filled with and surrounded by fluid (primarily water). The least possible motions of the brain relative to the skull are straight-line motions, while rotary motions are more possible. The brain in the skull is somewhat like one of those winter scene globes with the "snow" in it. If you move it quickly in a straight line, the snow does not fly. On the other hand, if you rotate it quickly, you get a snowstorm. Sudden head rotation may be more dangerous than straight-line motion. The major action of the HANS® is to keep the head from swinging. This does two things: it reduces the stretch of the neck which otherwise could cause a basal skull fracture; and, it reduces the rotation of the head, which could otherwise cause a brain injury. A few drivers have reported some discomfort in the front of their heads after a big hit with the HANS® but this quickly resolves. The medical people in racing say that this is minor relative to what would have happened without the HANS®. In the study of racing safety, we have learned that loads and accelerations on the driver are best reduced by temporarily coupling the body as well as possible to the chassis. While it may be possible to reduce peak loads in some cases by adding some cushion or compliance to the restraints, this generally leads to higher loads on people because it allows a larger difference in velocity between the driver and the chassis before the driver is restrained. In the case of the HANS®, there is a lot of compliance in the restraint belt and body; we do not need to add more compliance in the HANS®.
Regarding using a HANS when you're a one-man show - it's straightforward, you've just got to remember what order to do things in. The straps on the side are on quick release fittings, so you can:
- get in
- put the HANS around your neck
- get the belts done up
- put helmet on
- attach straps
The only issue I've had is forgetting to attach the straps (until pointed out by someone on the grid). Now I make sure I turn my head side-to-side to make sure they're attached.
James
Thanks Brad and James - that's good news.
John
I am also a one man crew. One thing I found out about connecting the HANS tethers to the helmet is: If you tighten your belts before connecting your tethers, it makes it very difficult to reach around and grab the HANS tethers. I always attach the tethers before tightening my belts, saves getting a cramp or pulling a muscle trying to stretch my arm in a weird position
The head in a rapid decelleration injury is padded by CSF( cerebral spinal fluid) in the front, back, or side and damage to the brain is caused by a counter-coup type of injury where recoil occurs and the brain hits the posterior or opposite skull. Rotational injuries cause a sheering force that causes stretch of axons and closed head injury conditions much like a concussion. Rotation also causes sheering of blood vessels and bleeding. Contusions to brain matter from a counter coup injury is what affects boxers and the damage is usually done to posterior aspects of the brain with frontal impacts. In rear impacts and rapid decel injuries it will affect frontal areas. The CSF protects brain matter in rotation and side, front, back injuries. The neck is most prone to decel injuries and with the limitations on severe range of motions, possible fractures, cord transections and dislocations of vertebrae are prevented injuries. The Hans will prevent extreme ROM injuries to the neck and not so much for brain injuries.
Terry Trammell and others have written many articles on motorsports injuries and the research done makes sense to use a hans device.
Football has done much on neck prevention and to build up the neck muscles, trapezius muscle and work on stabilization of the neck musculature makes sense.
I will bite the bullet and buy a HANS. what a great forum. Human performance International has a neck trainer that is worth checking out to help prevent neck injuries also. The less ROM the better to limit injurie.
According to technical report I read somewhere (Race Car Engineering???) it isn't as good. The studies done where all systems were tested to the same criteria have clearly shown the HANS to be the most effective. Cost more? Yep. Worth it? IMHO, Yep.
Anybody know anything about the Isaac Head Restraint? (Other than the info on their website)
David, could you please cite what page this fastrack clarification can be found? Is the ISAAC specifically addressed? If it is not and the 'logic' is that the by releasing the single point you are not free from the car, how are radios, drink tubes, cool suits and fresh air systems being dealt with?Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ferguson
What kind of information are you looking for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Coury
I can tell you I love mine. I won't wear anything less. That probably doesn't answer your questions though.
I considered only the HANS and the ISAAC as I felt they were much better than the rest. I chose the ISAAC because I liked the manner it which it controlled the head loads, the fact that it was less likely to have harnesses slip off in an offset crash. It offered some protection in a 90 degree impact, in which a HANS offers zero and I don't need a different model for each car. I was also turned off by the misleading advertising claims made by HANS folks that emphasize that is the best device tested, with aboslutely no mention that the ISAAC was specifically not included in those tests.
We pay lots of attention to our shock valving to control rate and position. If we were only concerned about position we would only run bump stops and droop limiters so why is anyone okay with a bump stop and droop limiter on your head? Aren't we concerned with both position and deceleration?
Gregg Baker at ISAAC is very helpful and patient, he will answer all the questions about his product you have.
Gentlemen,
1) The Isaac system is approved for SCCA Pro Racing.
2) All head and neck restraints are illegal in the SCCA because the helmet attachment voids the Snell certification, except the Isaac system when used with the optional adhesive.
I met with Kurt Weiss (Chairman, SCCA Club Racing Board) two weeks ago at the SAE's Motorsports Engineering Conference in Dearborn on this subject. Long story short, he knows the GCR is a mess re the single-point release issue and noted that it will be fixed in time--too late for the 2005 GCR which is already in print. He is also acutely aware that if a racer is denied the use of any H&N restraint because of rules noncompliance and that racer is injured/killed while driving, the SCCA will be owned by that racer's attorneys.
The Isaac system is as legal as any other head and neck restraint in SCCA.
The Isaac system when used with adhesive for the helmet mounts is the only head and neck restraint in the world that retains helmet certifications from both Snell and FIA.
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
Recent research indicates that the single worst cause of brain injury is shear loads. Mr. Horgas' injury was probably caused by rotational shear.
Range of motion is irrelevant.
Range of motion is irrelevant? You have to be able to turn your head to see mirrors and maximize peripheral vision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Baker
Incidentally I have purchased a HANS and have a tucker head restraint for sale. More info at www.teamtechmotorsports.com
Thanks,
Jeff
Please, no misinformation. The Snell certification is NOT voided when a HANS is installed. I corresponded directly with the Snell Foundation, and to make a sort story shorter, it has no effect on certification if you install per the Hubbard-Downing instructions.
You can easily test this yourself with an email to Snell.
Regards,
Agreed. I was referring to the belief some have that the position of the head causes injury. This is not true; loads cause injuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS Motorsport
Occasionally a driver is injured when the steering column penetrates the eyeport, but it is generally acknowledged that the driver is going to hit the wheel anyway in a big crash regardless of what product they are using.
Greg,Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Mercurio
This is old territory. From the Snell Web site:
"Cosmetic changes to certified headgear are permissible. Such changes are generally limited to marking or trimming the headgear with manufacturer approved paint or tape.
Otherwise, modification of certified headgear creates new headgear which will not have the confidence and certification of the Foundation until samples have been submitted and evaluated....
After-market modifiers of such certified headgear should be aware that any structural modification may adversely affect a helmet's protective capability and therefore invalidate the certification." (Emphasis added)
A blanket statement re the HANS device and Snell is valid only if every model of every manufacturer's helmet has been retested with the HANS mounts installed. I doubt this has happened. In fact, as of recently the FIA had approved only a limited number of helmets for use with the HANS device.
If Snell is saying, in effect, "Yeah, the HANS device invalidates our certification, but that's okay with us because it improves safety," it is on par with the SCCA saying, "Yeah, the Isaac sytem works with the belts, but that's okay with us because it improves safety."