Facts about Zetec

I don't want to upset anybody, but some of you have not got the facts correct. I am just going to list some numbers and leave it with you:

Mileage: 5,00 to 10,000 Pro Series Champion 4,700 miles on pole for one race and won both rounds at Rd. Atlanta....some say this track has something to do with power. Do the math 3 to 4 National Seasons.

Van Diemens - that can convert '98-'04 - 237
Cost of Engine: $9,950.00
Cost of Kit: $5,300.00
Blow Ups: Zero
Rebuild: $3,500.00 fixed
Electronics: Pectel $2,400 M.B.E $800 - $1,000

Crossover to Pro Series: No problem 2 race exemption.

Availability: 500+ at Ford Racing alone, produced here until the end of '04, Europe until '06, parts available until 2012, from Ford aftermarket forever - 3.2 million worldwide.

Duratec: Not an option, won't fit, don't want it to, not as good as Zetec, have both, don't compare.

Other Manufacturers: Don't bother, been there done that, besides if you don't like the conversion cost now you definately won't be happy if you see one for another engine.

Chassis Stability: We are not planning on any changes until '06, we are working on something with a V-8, but if the Zetec owners group want something different we will look at it.

Other Manufacturers: I am encouraging their participation, I would love to see Citation, Carbir, Piper and Stohr fit Zetecs. There is a market for new Zetecs not Pinto chassis, we need some variety.

Who said anything about the Zetec Series dumping the engine or changing the chassis. Where do you guys get this stuff!

Unless I've missed something, why is anyone afraid of something that has proven itself for two years to be a suitable replacement for something that needs to be replaced.

What is the cost of a new Pinto? And how long to get one?

i don't think it's fair to make a judgement without some experience of the issues. Having been on both sides, and for over twenty years with Pinto, all I know is what I see. Much more reliability and performance per dollar with 80% less maintenance.

With the Zetec based Formula you have the fastest, safest and most cost effective racing tool for under $40,000.00

Anybody wants to talk, call me. Thanks, Jon Baytos

Office: 727-522-7544
Cell: 727-744-5255
Home: 727-363-3279

ya gotta love a guy like jon. gives you the facts and ALL his phone numbers if you've got questions.

mark d

Gee..that was like a breath of fresh air!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Cape Motorsports:
I don't want to upset anybody, but some of you have not got the facts correct. I am just going to list some numbers and leave it with you:
<snip>

Availability: 500+ at Ford Racing alone, produced here until the end of '04, Europe until '06, parts available until 2012, from Ford aftermarket forever - 3.2 million worldwide.

Duratec: Not an option, won't fit, don't want it to, not as good as Zetec, have both, don't compare. <snip>

Thanks, Jon Baytos

Office: 727-522-7544
Cell: 727-744-5255
Home: 727-363-3279

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Mr Baytos,
Respectfully, I must disagree with you on these two items:

One...The only Zetec engine currently available in the United States is the limited issue SVT Zetec installed in the Ford Focus. Ford will drop it's use after 2004 altogether. I do not have specific information about the Zetec's future use in other parts of the world. However, I must point out that the Duratec in it's three displacements...1.8, 2.0 and 2.3 liter is already found in more Ford and Mazda vehicles than the Zetec ever was. In addition, Ford and it's subsidiary companies like Volvo will continue to introduce this engine into even more vehicles in the coming years. Worldwide production is slated to be about one and a quarter million Duratecs annually with over three hundred thousand assembled in Dearborn, Michigan by American workers.

Two...Your assessment of the performance potential of the Duratec engine versus the Zetec is incorrect. Both engines perform well in a stock configuration but the Zetec requires extensive modification and/or major parts replacement including the block and cylinder head if it is pushed beyond it's reliable limits of about 300 h.p. The all-aluminum Duratec engine weighs about 45 pounds less than the Zetec and does not require replacement of the block and head to make high horsepower numbers. In fact at least one engine builder ( Circle Performance, http://www.circleperformance.com ) has easily exceeded 330 h.p. with a change of connecting rods, higher compression 14-1 forged pistons and a short list of modifications on a stock OEM 2.3 Ford Ranger Duratec engine. The Sports 2000 group is quite succesful using their stock Duratec 2.0 liter engine in competition, www.sports2000.co.uk/pro_series_engine.htm .
Minister Racing, http://www.minister-power.com , has recently won several prestigious endurance races with their Duratecs. Even on the drag race scene a Mazda version Duratec is capable of high boosted horsepower with a stock block and cylinder head, http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2002/news/110601.html

Why does this engine have such great potential? The Duratec is based on a Cosworth-inspired race design and was believed to be intended for use in F-1 competition. Ford "found" the design when they purchased a controlling interest in Cosworth and allowed Mazda to perfect the manufacturing processes. However, the inherent strength of the engine design...skirted block, gerotor oil pump, girdled crankshaft main caps, cross-flow pentroof head, etc. was maintained. A multitude of aftermarket companies are manufacturing improved components specifically designed for racing. Even Cosworth America plans to offer a kit of aftermarket improvements in the Spring of 2004.

Perhaps the Duratec engine is not the best choice for installation into some racing applications but it is incorrect to say that it is not as good as a Zetec.

With regard,
Gerry Dedonis
dedonis@kans.com
Kansas Racing Products Inc.
http://www.kansasracingproducts.com

Hi John,
Would you elaborate on gearbox costs in Zetec's? I understand that many teams have experienced annual gearbox costs matching or exceeding their previous Pinto rebuild costs. Since I do not want to proliferate false rumors I thought I'd ask you directly. Specifically how much more maintenance is required, what service life are you experiencing with components, how often have you seen failures.

Gerry, all, ,,

This Duratec discussion is missing a few imortant points.

First no one is talking about a 300 hp engine, ..
but the most important fact is it does not fit the current chassis. To make it fit would require a new bellhousing/ trans adaptor, ( big $$$) input shaft, .. headers, .. rework of motor mounts and rear chassis,,.. the costs to convert any current chassis to anything BUT a Zetec would be silly.

Curtis

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Originally posted by Curtis Boggs:
Gerry, all, ,,

This Duratec discussion is missing a few important points.

First no one is talking about a 300 hp engine, ..
but the most important fact is it does not fit the current chassis. To make it fit would require a new bellhousing/ trans adaptor, ( big $$$) input shaft, .. headers, .. rework of motor mounts and rear chassis,,.. the costs to convert any current chassis to anything BUT a Zetec would be silly.

Curtis

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I do agree that a Zetec engine might be the best choice for many race applications. My point of contention with Jon had to do more with his assessment of the Duratec being inferior to the Zetec engine. I simply pointed out that a Duratec has the ability to serve in it's stock capacity AND as a performance engine requiring few modifications. A Zetec has but one reasonably priced option (emphasis on reasonably) and that being in it's stock internal configuration. Sizewise, the Zetec and Duratec engines are very close in overall dimensions. The Duratec's intake and exhaust are configured same as the 2.0 Pinto engine. The Zetec is the opposite. Of course the issue too that the Zetec is going to be discontinued from production where as the Durated is at the beginning of it's life cycle and is already accepted in the new SCCA Sport and Formula class.

Please notice in the F2000 Off-Topic Forum several photos of a Carbir chassis fitted with a Duratec 2.0 liter.

There is at least one company making an adapter to fit a Duratec oe Zetec engine to an Mk8 gearbox. This same company also makes carbureted conversions and stand-alone ignition systems for the Zetec, Duratec and GM-Olds Quad 4. Visit with John Ehrlich at Altech Precision in Colorado or go to his website at http://www.quad4rods.com

I imagine John would be willing to talk about other ways to adapt a Duratec to the current chassis.

Thank you!
Gerry Dedonis

Please amend my last post to include an adapter to mate the Duratec to an Mk8 and Mk9 gearbox.
Regards,'
Gerry

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Originally posted by Gerry Dedonis:
Please amend my last post to include an adapter to mate the Duratec to an Mk8 and Mk9 gearbox.
Regards,'
Gerry

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99% of the cars use LD200 gearbox's.

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[/qb]

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99% of the cars use LD200 gearbox's. [/QB][/QUOTE]

OK then, talk to John Ehrlich to see if he can adapt the Duratec to the LD200 box or provide a new casting altogether.

Scott, thanks for pointing out this fact. I'm still on the learning curve with road racing. :D :D :D
Regards,
Gerry Dedonis

A little birdie told me that ICP is building a Citation/Zetec right now. Was that birdie telling the truth Richard?

i'm not extremely knowledgeable about pintos, zetecs or duratecs but i have picked up a few things about ld200s.

The talk of a 300hp duratec seems kinds of silly. If my memory serves me correctly a top national pinto makes about 150hp. At this HP level guys seems to be popping gears and breaking stuff pretty often. So why would anyone ever think putting a 300hp engine in front of an LD200 is a good reliable combination?

Nobody is talking about putting a 300 HP Duratec in.
As I heard many times in school as a youth - "let's focus now class"

Happy Holidays [img]graemlins/santa.gif[/img]

Chris
ck-r.com

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Originally posted by HazelNut:
i'm not extremely knowledgeable about pintos, zetecs or duratecs but i have picked up a few things about ld200s.

The talk of a 300hp duratec seems kinds of silly. If my memory serves me correctly a top national pinto makes about 150hp. At this HP level guys seems to be popping gears and breaking stuff pretty often. So why would anyone ever think putting a 300hp engine in front of an LD200 is a good reliable combination?

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A bit of clarification regarding a 300+ h.p. Duratec mentioned by Curtis Boggs. One Duratec engine builder, Circle Performance, has adapted an engine for competition in circle-track midgets. I don't believe Curtis was advocating a 300 h.p. engine as a replacement for formula competition but it is very beneficial to know that an engine offered in a street vehicle has the affordable potential to serve in several capacities. The OEM Zetec engine does not unless the aftermarket block and cylinder head is utilized for a high hp application.

Hope this clears the issue.
Thanks and regards,
Gerry Dedonis

Gerry-

We get it.. you like the duratec. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I don't think Mr. Baytos downplayed the performance of the duratec.. it is what is used in the FSCCA car. I believe his statement was ONLY intended for fitment in a FC and F2000 chassis... nothing more.

The focus engine (zetec) is the one being used most for the midgets, even having their own turn-key, spec engine class, using the zetec powerplant. I believe they get over 200hp with them reliably.

At any rate - I don't believe this needs to become a duratec versus zetec pissing match...
I agree with anyone who wants to see more manufacturers in F2000's.... Carbir, Mygale, Swift, Stohr, Piper, Citation, Taatus.... that was fun when there were more than 2 manufacturers duking it out.

MM
The talk of gearboxes though is very interesting.

Marc,
I believe the change to the 8 & 10" wheel had a lot to do with the gear breakage. I don't think that was an issue in 02 when they first introduced the Zetec with the smaller (FC) wheel tire combination.
I have not experienced any problems, but I only have about 2000 miles on it. I wouldn't expect any more than I had with my Pinto if I stay on the smaller wheels.

DOH!!! my bad.

don't know how a double post got in there, ..

sorry

Curtis

[size="1"][ December 25, 2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Curtis Boggs ][/size]

[quote]Originally posted by Gerry Dedonis:
[qb]

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A bit of clarification regarding a 300+ h.p. Duratec mentioned by Curtis Boggs.
Gerry Dedonis

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Gerry,

Ummm,, .. I think we do need to clear things up YOU are the person who brought up 300 + HP Duratecs, .. NOT ME !!!!!!! :mad:

I am NOT in favor of the Duratec and never said anything of the sort! What I AM in favor of is using the fully tested Zetec package in a chassis that it bolts into and has proven reliable for our racing series.

Gerry, .. we all know you like the Duratec, ..

The cost to convert any of our formula cars to Duratec would be silly, .. and bringing it into this discussion is also silly, .. so don't muddy the waters with sales attempts!

Curtis

[size="1"][ December 25, 2003, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Curtis Boggs ][/size]

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Duratec: Not an option, won't fit, don't want it to, not as good as Zetec, have both, don't compare.

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Hey Mr. Beytos brought it up and Gerry just told you the facts. I've sat here and wondered why we are so enamered with the Ztec when Ford isn't. Gerry also gave us information on getting the Duratec to mate up to our gearboxes. They seem to be very happy with the Duratec in England in the Sports racers and if you think 15k to convert isn't silly money Curtis I want to come work for you. Just becuase Mr. Baytos says the Ztec is the "only" power plant that will work in our cars doesn't make it so.

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Chassis Stability: We are not planning on any changes until '06, we are working on something with a V-8, but if the Zetec owners group want something different we will look at it.

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I heard this rumor over a year ago and I don't call two more years much stability. FC is a very stable class and I fear that if we let this genie out of the bottle we'll never get it back in. I believe that we will at some point need to look at other power plants and in the other thread I laid out my feelings.

Sorry Michael,

I get a little angry when some one attributes a quote to me, .. that in fact they them selves made.

The cost of a new bell housing / trans adaptor to get the Duratec in the car would add another $2,000 to $3,000 to the conversion, .. .. place on top of that the new body work, etc.

All these things exsist for the Zetec and the Zetec will bolt up to the pinto trans adaptor and use the same input shaft.

why use something else when all the work is done and it's proven?

Curtis

Two reasons why the Duratec might be a better choice.

Ford is into this motor for the long haul

Badged as Mazda we could get contingency money. Something Ford doesn't offer club racers.

I am still leaning on the "extend the life of the Pinto by using better rod/piston and let the pro guys have their own deal" side of this. But and this is J-Lo sized but I do believe that at some point in the evolution of FC a new motor will have to replace the Pinto. Right now with only 70-80 Ztec cars in the entire country and maybe 6-12 Pinto cars willing to convert I can't see why we are letting this format mold our class. Pinto powered FC's have been and still are some of the quickest (lap times) cars in the SCCA. They are good looking pure racing cars and the current format works.

Kodiak Motorsports\Daryle Redlin is fitting a Zetec engine to his FF2000 chassis as we speak. With a slightly different front motor mount, the Pinto motor and Zetec seem to be interchangable. Please add Kodiak to the chassis manufacturers that see this as a viable series.

Also, Kodiak wheels meet all of the Zetec series wheel specs and are coming on board this year.

Curtis, my sincere apology to you regarding the mention of a modified 300+ h.p. Duratec engine used in another form of racing.

In it's stock configuration, a Duratec and Zetec are closely matched in power output. The main differences are:

One...the overall weight, 200 pounds for a Duratec versus 245 pounds for the Zetec.
Two...the location of the intake and exhaust ports.
Three...the stock bellhousing bolt pattern.
Four...the Zetec is at it's end of production and the Duratec is about five years old.
Five...the Zetec requires extensive modification and major parts replacement for high horsepower output. The Duratec can retain it's stock block, head and perhaps it's crankshaft.

The greater the versatility of an engine then the greater the opportunity that it can be used in a variety of racing classes. BrooksHall mentioned the possible award as contingency money. The Duratec is a globally produced engine that is or will be installed into many different brands of cars and trucks. Why wouldn't Mazda, Ford or Volvo want the recogition? They sure won't provide a nickel's worth to the dying Zetec. Even the competitors in USAC's Ford Focus Zetec Midget Series using an internally stock 180 h.p. Zetec don't get a break from Ford. Any contingency money or purse is paid by the Ford dealer's association and not Ford Motor Company. I wonder how they can continue to call themselves Focus Zetec Midgets when the Focus itself no longer has a Zetec engine? Yep, it's been replaced by the Duratec.

Best regards,
Gerry Dedonis

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this issue, so I invite everyone to comment about this musing>

Regarding argument over the production #'s and production lifespan of either the Zetec or Duratech and that relationship to SCCA use: Hasn't production of both of these engines already surpassed the production #'s of the 2.0 Pinto motor?....and we're still using Pintos after 30 yrs.
IF my admittedly "shot from the hip" estimates are correct, then isn't the "production #/life argument" moot?

Just wondering if anyone knows the real #'s for 2.0 Pintos to corroborate my point.

Bruce Allison

Gerry, a few questions on the Duratec. It has have been explained to me that the Duratech is a "throw away" engine. Is it true that if you seriously overheat these, you pretty much need a new engine? Can it be rebuilt?
This isn't an attack on Duratecs, I've just heard so much stuff and thought you might know.

Steve

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Originally posted by Steve Thomson:
Gerry, a few questions on the Duratec. It has have been explained to me that the Duratech is a "throw away" engine. Is it true that if you seriously overheat these, you pretty much need a new engine? Can it be rebuilt?
This isn't an attack on Duratecs, I've just heard so much stuff and thought you might know.

Steve

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Hi Steve,
As I understand manufacturing processes, most everything is built with an expected lifespan. An item will last "X" amount of years or "X" amount of use cycles then considered to be worn out or obsolete. Fifty years ago, a car engine would need internal maintenance...valves ground, a re-ring of pistons, bearing replacement, overhaul, etc. after a short period of miles to maintain top performance...similar to Formula Ford 1600 engines.

Modern casting and machining technology and metalurgy plus superior oil and filtering systems have allowed engines and other components to "live" a very long time without the need to rebuild. A point where they are considered to be "throw-away" as it is often cheaper to replace with a brand new engine then to try a restore a used engine to exacting tolerances. The current Formula Zetec engine proves this point as a regularly maintained engine can be raced for years until wear reduces it's performance. It is less expensive to remove the exterior race components and transfer them to a new Zetec engine.

Of course the type of racing is relative to a component's life cycle. The life of a Top Fuel dragster engine component might be five seconds of hard use then it is discarded. An engine block, cylinder head, crankshaft, etc will have so many cycles then be replaced. That being said, a Duratec engine (or Zetec engine) can be rebuilt but it might be hard to duplicate exacting tolerances within a reasonable and affordable cost.

As for overheating issues...it does appear that alloy engines are more prone to suffer damage than iron block and head engines. There is no indication that a Duratec engine has design flaw that makes it more prone to overheating.

I hope this answers your questions.

Regards,
Gerry Dedonis

The thread's gotten so long and rambling that there's hardly a point any more. [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img]

The Comp board came up with some options. There are really only two questions:

Are those the options you want to voice your opinion on?

If not, what else?

Fail to answer and the Comp board will let us peter away like Formula Ford, figuring we don't know WHAT we want. [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img]

To refresh:
"The options being presented by the comp board are as follows:

1) Leave it alone as a Pinto class
2) Add a restricted version of the Pro Series Zetec engine to bring it back to the current Pinto 2 litre engine, possibly with a weight penalty.
3) Solicit engine manufacturers for a replacement engine to be phased in.
4) Return FC to an open engine formula (similar to FA) as it was prior to 1984 with the Pinto as the performance standard. This would have the advantage of accommodating some other combinations (motorcycle engine single seaters for example) in the National Program"


This is like a high-school exam. It doesn't matter if you provide a great and well thought out answer, if it's not the question on the test.

Let's try to bound the problem. Keep a couple of things in mind:

Regardless of the decision made on the Zetec, you'll be able to count the number of pre-98 cars that convert on one hand. So, how many cars did Van Dieman produce between 1990 and 1997? That's a good estimate of the number of total older cars out there that can't realistically convert.

How many 1998-2003 cars have been produced to Pinto Spec? These are the cars suitable for conversion.

How many 2001-2003 cars were produced to Zetec spec? Double it, and that's the maximum pro trickle-down that we would ever see.

With those numbers in hand, and the conversion costs presented by Sandy and Baytos in previous posts, the picture ought to get clearer. Mr Baytos - care to provide some numbers? I figure the total production of all other manufacturers combined is less than 10% of Van Dieman's and the write-off/CSR/FS rate is probably close to 10% as well. Call it a wash.

But looking at the four options as presented, I haven't seen a lot of support for Option #1 as written. Frog offered up the Marshall plan, and I attempted to build on that with a poll on engine mods, which has garnered not a single response. :mad: From this I'm led to believe that the majority of the folks discussing own '98 and up cars, and are really weighing the alternative engine issues.

Option #2 seems to be possible, but again, not as written, and the devil is truly in the details. If someone has data showing where a pro trickle-down worked to the advantage of the existing cars, please present it. An while you're at it, take a good look at the ratios of the production numbers if we get them.

I've seen no indication that Option #4 is what folks want.

Option #3, in one form or another, is where the thread has gone for the last couple of days. While I would love to see a more modern alternative to the Pinto THAT FITS THE PRE-98 CHASSIS (after all, 98 and up have the Zetec), that option is DOA. There's no need to solicit another manufacturer - the FC of the future is the FSCCA. Why would the club consider any option that threatens to take away sales from Enterprises with a nearly identical product?? That decision has already been made - both by the comp board and the marketplace when one considers the number fo chassis sold already. Better get your deposit in the mail, because in five years FC nationals will be dominated by FSCCA cars.

So lets get on with discussing variants of Options 1 and 2.

Option 1 is for all the pre-1998 cars and a great number of the 98-03 cars.

Option 2 is really about making sure the pro guys don't get stuck with a bunch of hardware when they move on to the next big thing. But since I don't own one, I don't have a dog in that fight. If I were you though, I'd be looking for ways to get that conversion down in price.

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Fail to answer and the Comp board will let us peter away like Formula Ford, figuring we don't know WHAT we want.

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You are somewhat incorrect with your statement Rick, the CB is not lettting us "peter away" they have been a huge help. WE do know what we want and have got it approved by the Comp Board in the last 2 years. (we are actually being more proactive getting parts approved by the CB than FC)carefull what you guys say here, we read things too and we can also write letters.
:confused:

New Parts for FF1600
Aluminum aftermarket head
Electronic Ignition
2 aftermarket cranks
15.5 OEM Flywheel and a new aftermarket flywheel
3 different aftermarket gasket kits
aftermarket rocker pedastals
Moroso Oil Pans/valve covers
soon we will have forged pistons when they are proposed and new cams (see Jan fastrack). IF and when we get somebody to cast blocks most of our problems will be solved.

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How many 1998-2003 cars have been produced to Pinto Spec? These are the cars suitable for conversion.

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Read Mr. Baytos's post a little closer. :D (237) the car I work on in the Zetec pro series was originally a 01' Pinto Pro car that was converted to Zetec specs in 2002, the 15K number is pretty close,(probally low) but this is racing always assume it's going to cost more than you think (it always does). BTW, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that 3-4 of the 237 98-04 cars have been converted to Kent Formula Fords ,I doubt they would want to go to Zetec ;) -Dave

[size="1"][ December 27, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hopple ][/size]

Thanks for clarifying it for me Mike! That's exactly what I meant. Nothing else believe me!

I did obviously miss JB's stats on the 98 and up cars. If there are roughly 230 98-04 cars remaining, and roughly 60 are Zetecs, figure by 06 there might be something like 250 total, and 80 of those Zetecs if nobody converts.

But the number I was realy looking for was the 90-97 quantities. If the production rate was roughly the same on average, there should be something like 300 of those, and maybe another 200 or so of earlier vintages going back to 84. But those numbers seem too small, like half of what I'd expect. On the other hand, there were a number of recession years in there where production of a lot of makes was in single digit quantities.

All,
First a belated Merry Christmas.

Second,
The whole thing comes down to money.

with enough money pretty much anything can be done.

Ztech, Duratec and Pinto can all be made comparable in performance, by whatever means (bring Pinto up, bring the Ztech and Duratech down).

The question is how much people are willing to spend.

If you are a pro guy, you truly do want a competitive place to dump your Ztech when the series moves on without taking too much of a beating on selling it.

To me this is a perversion of the club racing system. Club racing is just that CLUB RACING. I have been doing it for a long long time and have seen this happen with wet Super Vees and the Pinto cars, both times at great expense to the CLUB racers in FC (or FSV) at the time.

Thwe wet Super Vee thing did not last long at the club level. The Pinto car came along and the wet SV's went to Atlantic to more or less die. There weren't that many of them in club racing at any one time any way.

But the Pinto, Ahhhh. It has been in this class since 1984, if memory serves me correctly, and it is a fine engine.

Now there are a LOT of them, the class is huge (I believe third in last years National perticipation count).

So the question truly is: Do the CLUB racers in FC want to spend a ton of money to obsolete their equipment to turn the class into a dumping ground for the pro guys when they move on. Remember previous posts have indicated that there are about 1000 Pinto cars out there and less than 100 Ztech's.

My humble opinion is let the pro guys dump their "old" equipment somewhere else and keep FC Pinto powered with improvements to enhance reliability and reduce engine costs.

If you want the latest high tech engine and car, there is a class in CLUB racing for that. It is called FA.

Maybe it was the multiple [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] guys that threw me off... :D Sometimes it is very hard (myself included) for people (newbies to racing also, remember) who come here to read the posts to decifer what the facts are and what is somebodys personal opinion.

The participation levels this year for the Zetec series ( I'm guessing without going back and looking at the results) was around 23-28 Zetec engined cars showing up at each of the races. Granted there were some cars bought out on the left coast that were going to run in the west coast pro series that didn't work out in 03, hopefully a west coast series happens in 04'.

Sorry for the rant- Dave

Rick

Keep in mind that the Zetec cars have wider wheels and tires compared to FC. I believe that their minimum weight is 1175lbs compared to 1190lbs for FC. These two points, in addition to what has already been mentioned, need to be factored in when trying to equalize the cars. I'm not sure if there is any difference in the brakes. At one time, they were talking about going to vented rotors. Perhaps someone will chime in and clarify.

Dennis Cleary
VD RF94/95 NER#37

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At one time, they were talking about going to vented rotors. Perhaps someone will chime in and clarify.

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Nope, Unless things have changed we are all using the standard rotors, if I remember right, they are made by PFC, one of the series sponsors.


-Dave

Dave I think what Rick ment was that FF has declined over the last decade not that you guys haven't tried and to some degree been succesful in making your engine formula viable.

I have read JB's post carefully several times and the one thing that keeps sticking in my mind is that he contridicts himself.

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Chassis Stability: We are not planning on any changes until '06, we are working on something with a V-8, but if the Zetec owners group want something different we will look at it.

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Who said anything about the Zetec Series dumping the engine or changing the chassis. Where do you guys get this stuff!

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These statements make me nervous. Pro team have no loyalty to SCCA rules they go with the series. I heard from two of the Ztec teams that the V8/Carbon tub car was planned for the '06 season a year ago. How many new pro cars will be bought in the next two years ten? Twenty? At twenty that would give us just over 100 total cars in the country. Weight that against 1000+ pinto cars....well you see where I'm going. This Ztec thing is the tail wagging the dog in my eyes I'm voting for option #1 if we can't come to some sort of consensus on the Marshal plan.

Steve - I was going to write a bit on the WC SV trickle down in the eighties, but the post was too long. It is a good lesson learned, and a good reason to have folks reason this stuff out carefully. It is probably the only case where a class of ex-pro cars was introduced into a lower class and then moved UP.

So, under the headline of those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it, Steve, correct me where I'm wrong.

If I recall the history of FC, we started with tube-frame F3 based cars with a high-RPM crossflow engine. I don't know for sure, but those chassis could be FF, F2(FB), or F3(FC) just by changing the motor, brakes, and wheels, so I'd bet that when they got too expensive to run, guys converted them to FF (I know a couple of vintage FB guys who found their cars advertised as FFs).

In any case, the pro SV guys needed a place to get rid of their old cars starting with the move from 1600 TyIII to TyIV motors and the introduction of tubs in '72, so they were allowed into FC sometime thereafter (not sure of the date). Sometime after the rabbit cars arrived in '75, they were allowed into FC running carbs. Then later, the wheels got bigger, the 1800 engine arrived, and injection was allowed, and these cars were just way too fast for FC, so they were moved to FA, and I believe the older WC cars were forced to follow, because the current rules in FC only allow vintage FCs, Air Cooled SV, and F2000. If memory serves me right, these cars (Ralt-RT5s, Shannons, a couple of Marches, and Martinis) did OK in FA until the arrival of full-carbon tubs and the Toyota motor. But, if you had a flat-bottom, carburated, 1600cc WC SV with 6's and 8's (Ralt RT1s, Lolas, most Marches), you were pretty much hosed.

And the air cooled guys, well, you could spend a boat-load of money on new aero stuff and hand-grenade motors to run near the back of the F2000 pack. The best AC SV chassis technology was barely comparable to the early 80's rocker arm F2000's. The board never allowed good rods and custom pistons (all stock VW!), so you got the compression by flycutting the heads, which takes out the first cooling fin and causes the heads to crack - AND you had to do mickey mouse stuff like turning valves into cutters to make reliefs in the pistons, cutting rods in half to make stronger rod caps, etc, etc. Nobody was going to put up with that for long - and I guarantee you there are few truly legal Vintage air-cooled SV's (at least in terms of rods and pistons) because it makes no economic sense whatsoever. VARA recently split SV into three distinct classes:

1700cc air cooled non-winged chassis on treaded tires (essentially 1972 and earlier) FSV-1

1600cc water-cooled flat-bottomed chassis, and air-cooled winged cars with 2000cc motors (a combo never allowed in the SCCA) on 6s and 8s - FSV-2

Everything else: ground effects, injection, 1800cc motors, 8s and 10s, FSV-3.

Maybe the older cars do need to go away, for safety issues if nothing else (my AC SV is a deathtrap). But it should be done on a well thought out, scheduled basis with appropriate input from the affected parties, and not by decree from above.

My point in all of this rambling, and it's a little different than Steve's, is that pro trickle-down is a tradition in this class, BUT! It's been done badly in the past. The only guys that lucked out were the early FC/F3 guys that converted to FF (hey, that could still happen!). I remember a lot of butchered AC SV tubs converted to WC or with strange ground effects added. My '72 Royale was butchered up that way.

Dennis - that's why when I said option #2 was a possibility, I said the Devil's in the details. It has traditionally been done, and IMHO, done poorly.

Dave - I was told there are 10 Zetecs on the west coast. I've only seen one, a CARBIR, run by Jonnie Crean. DT Benner has another. Don't know if all ten are still out here.

Brakes? Shoot - my latest results show that I would go faster if you took the brakes off the car! :D :D

[size="1"][ December 27, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Rick Kirchner ][/size]

Rick

Regarding the wider wheels/tires on the Zetec, why not have them run the same wheel/tire size that FC runs and eliminate trying to equalize one more very significant difference?

Dennis Cleary
VD RF94/95 NER#37

Good commented history Rick - I also have an AC SV - a Tui. It was (attempted) turned into a WC SV before I bought it. I ended up selling the box, engine, and rear uprights getting back whatever money I had in it.
Dennis - Seems to me the Zetec's should run with the same specs as a Pinto car - wings, wheels, etc - but somehow try to equalize the engine torque curves.
I'm also for the SCCA writing specs for engine parts like rods and pistons etc and let us pick the manufacturer. Those Crower rods are very nice for the money.

If you look at the lap times this year from last, there wasn't a whole lot of difference. So yes we have bigger tires but we make a lot less downforce now as well. It worked out pretty well to change from the high downforce wings that are on FC cars and skinny tires to what was run in 03, plus the tires last much longer. (I think I had about 15 fewer sets this year, that would pay for a good chunk of the conversion dont you think) Also, who ever said the tub/V8 car was to replace Zetec and not to challenge Atlantics so there was a ladder of SCCA/Zetec/V8 ??

Rob

Agreed on the wings/wheels/tires. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that any expense to equalize the Zetec and Pinto should fall on the Zetecs. This may not be a popular opinion but there are a lot more Pintos than Zetecs so it seems only fair.

Dennis Cleary
VD RF94/95 NER#37

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So yes we have bigger tires but we make a lot less downforce now as well.

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Bre86 this is all well and good but if the rules are written to allow pro cars to run in FC with pro specs what happens when the pro rules change?
Pro rules are fluid and sometimes change within the same racing year. How do suppose Joe tech inspector will be able to keep up. What if the spec tire you run on now is replaced by Yokohama and they give you a softer compound? Suddenly you are 3 sec a lap faster. If (and I am against it) we allow Ztecs into FC the Ztec cars must conform to current FC rules and run the proper restrictor. I personally think that if the Ztec cars are allowed they should be choked down to 5-10 hp less than a National Pinto motor untill the Ztec powered cars become 50% of the FC class. FC has thrived with the pinto as it's choice of power and allthough things have slowed down some it is still a very popular class.

Mr. Baytos started his intitial post by saying he didn't want to upset anybody. Well I don't want to upset him but frankly his agenda is not ours. Steve said it best we are CLUB racers and the pro series is just that, a series for up and comming drivers with proffessional asperasions. Pro drivers for the most part do not own their cars and the teams buy the equipment with hopes that they will be able to unload it at some point. Mr. Baytos needs to have the Ztec car in FC to continue to keep his series viable.

Well with the current chassis freeze there is not a huge cause for pro teams to unload their cars on club racers. Granted I know the freeze will end at some point but for now pro teams dont need to sell their cars off. Also I know it wasnt your point exactly but with Coopers involvement as series sponsor I dont think we will be switching manufacturer's anytime soon. Changing compounds could happen sure but I put 250 miles on my right side race tires at Road Atlanta this year due to the new rules, granted I didn't have to run that many laps in qualifying but I did and I really dont think that they are going to make the tires softer because of the way the rules are written. Typically the pro tires have been harder than club tires anyway since club tires are open. I admit that rule changes happen, thankfully though there are fewer and fewer rule changes happening. The reason for that is the Zetec is getting more and more developed. Obviously there will be an abundance of rule changes the first year because it is a whole new deal. Rule changes happen every year with practically any form of racing. If you are so worried about it then make sure you (anyone running in the class) know the rules so if you see anything or suspect anything then you can notify a tech inspector instead of relying on them to find it.

Rick,
Essentially 100% accurate, except for a few dates, but the content and point I was trying to make were right on the money: Any time in the past there has been a "pro trickle down" done, the club racers lose because it is done poorly.

Oh and btw, the Comp Board did in fact allow any rods and pistons as long as they met a certain weight and had the geometry and were made of the same material as the originals. But they weren't allowed until after a couple of years of water cooled dominance.

But, I can guarantee you that they did considerably reduce the cost of racing and infinitely improve reliability.

I used the same set of Carillos for more years than I care to admit and they still had the original bolts and they were totally trouble free.

Yes I did have a set of those trick rods with caps made by cutting the beams off of another set.

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As for the tires I've spoken with a couple of the teams that ran this season and they say the same things you've pointed out. The tires are bigger but are also harder so there is no real benefiet.

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I'd really have to see a back-to-back comparison before I believed this. Track conditions vary from day to day so how can you possibly compare times from one year to the next with any degree of precision :confused:

Let's be realistic, if someone is serious about running the Pro series, their race budget is in 6 figures. I would think that they could afford a couple of sets of Club wheels/tires if they really wanted to. This is one difference between the cars that is easily rectified so that there is no question about the equality of the wheels/tires.

Dennis Cleary
VD RF94/95 NER#37

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Rule changes happen every year with practically any form of racing. If you are so worried about it then make sure you (anyone running in the class) know the rules so if you see anything or suspect anything then you can notify a tech inspector instead of relying on them to find it.

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Andy why should I have to learn the rule book for the pro series just to let a few cars run with us. I can't even keep up with the SCCA GCR so I don't think it should mine or any other FC drivers responsibility to keep abreast of a pro series rules.

As for the tires I've spoken with a couple of the teams that ran this season and they say the same things you've pointed out. The tires are bigger but are also harder so there is no real benefiet. My point was more that sponsors and race promoters come and go. Baytos could sell the series next year or Cooper could discontinue it's involvement. Mr. Baytos said in his post that the chassis and engine package could change in just two short years. Pro racing is very fickle this way. In 1997 who would have thought Penske would leave CART for the IRL and CART would go bankrupt? Another example is the promised West Coast series that never materialized. I can name 3 ex-Cal Club FC drivers that sold their Pinto cars to buy Ztecs to run the West coast series. Well Mr. Baytos promised a west coast series and he didn't deliver. I'm sure he had sound reasons for it but that didn't help the guys who bought the cars and were forced to travel thousands of miles to race them.

If the Ztec boys really want to be a part of FC then I'll say it again. The Ztec should be restricted to 90-95% of a National Pinto motor hp until the Ztec numbers are at 50% of Pinto numbers.