National Class for 2007..I guess not.

I am sure I will not be the first one to respond to this news about the new national classes for 2007 (page 12 of November Sportscar) but not seeing FSCCA listed as one of them just ticks me off to no end. :mad: I feel the guys running the FSCCA cars this past year in the regionals were busting our butts to make these races to get the car counts up but I guess this was not the case. Nothing against F1000 as it really is a cool concept but I did not see one single one of them at any regional race in Cendiv. How in the world did they get National status for 2007! Am I missing something here??

Tom Mihelich
FSCCA#43

Tom,

For what's worth, it absolutely makes no sense to me that FSCCA will not be a national class in 2007.

I also think the F1000 class is a good idea but shouldn't it have to run as a regional class for a year or two before a decision is made about it being a national class?

I am one who usually, rightly or wrongly, sits out on the politics of the club and lets the chips fall where they may. However, I was pissed when I read the Sportscar as well.

Trying to figure out the gyrations to go through to help our class reach a National status as soon as possible made my head ache last year. Here in Sowdiv we have growing numbers and probably averaged 4 or 5 at each event this year. I didn't see a single F1000. Last year at the ARRC, 11 SCCA cars - 2?F1000. This year at the ARRC 20 or so. How many F1000?

While I don't need another headache, I would like to know how in the world F1000 is being granted National status for 2007.

Will I be up in arms if F/SCCA has another year in Regional? Not if we are all playing by the same rules.

All you folks passionate about F1000, please do not take this as an attack on your class.

Mark

Guys,

As one of the team that put together the F1000 rules, I must admit that I was as surprised as you guys are by this outcome. Regardless of your view on F1000, FSCCA has like 110 or so cars in inventory. You guys are getting out and racing and having good events - now.

From what I can tell, you guys suffered from the timing of the potential Enterprises sell off and a fear of the appearance of preferential treatment in light of the Fran-Am legal settlement. If those events hadn't happened, I think you guys would be a shoe in for 2007.

That being said, "Becareful what you wish for". I am not sure that you are really suffering from the results. You have an excellent series of regional events and the ARRC. Given my experiences at HPT last weekend, I am not sure you guys have the inferior setup.

Sean

On October 3 Erik sent a letter to the CRB requesting a national class for the FSCCA. I believe he sent a copy of it to all the FSCCA owners that they have email addresses for. If you contact Erin at Enterprises she can probably send you a copy of it. If not, email me and I will send it to you. I have also sent in a letter of support for his request to the CRB with a copy to the SCCA BOD. It would be good if you all did the same.

Chuck

Chuck,

Because some regions (like Phoenix) start the 2007 National season in November, I think it is too late to effect a change for 2007. As explained to me those changes needed to be on the BOD meeting agenda in July/August.

Still it is never too early to begin the campaign for 2008 inclusion...

Sean

Actually, it is not too late to petition for 2007, but write soon! The addresses are crb@scca.com and bod@scca.com.

In the meantime let me cast some light on the situation. F-1000 was submitted as a Regional class right at the time that the CRB and BoD were re-evaluating the present system of classification, and so benefitted from good timing when the old system was scrapped. One of the first questions we asked was "what about F-SCCA?", but we were left to understand that you wanted to remain Regional for another year. It is now clear that is not the case and so we on the CRB are seeking your input. But please don't flood this thread -- write us at the addresses above. We have some letters (emails), but need more input, so please write a quick note with your preferences.

I've made additional comments on an F-1000 thread that you may wish to read: Link

Stan

OK, who's the one guy that said they wanted to stay a Regional Class for another year. Stand up and get your beating:confused: . I've been running as many weekends as possible to try and help our class get National status as I'm sure EVERYONE has been doing. As Stan pointed out, I think Eric eluded to in the letter and what I thought - there should be a board meeting Nov/ early Dec? Lets push to get it done!

Thanks for the input guys. It is so nice to have people in the know on this board.

Sean, you hit the nail on the head about us not having such a bad deal right now. I think the ARRC is a great event at a great venue. The Regional series this year has been a great success in my mind. That being said, my personal feeling about becoming a National class is that the biggest benefit would be an increased interest in the car. I think the car/class has a huge potential that I would enjoy seeing realized and a National class status would certainly help that happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Mabee

OK, who's the one guy that said they wanted to stay a Regional Class for another year. Stand up and get your beating:confused: . I've been running as many weekends as possible to try and help our class get National status as I'm sure EVERYONE has been doing. As Stan pointed out, I think Eric eluded to in the letter and what I thought - there should be a board meeting Nov/ early Dec? Lets push to get it done!

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All is not lost. The BoD and the CRB are each meeting in December, and the question of National status for F-SCCA in 2007 is on the table. Write us with your preferences.

Stan

Okay guys, you heard Stan, get the letters in! Mine is there. Looking forward to a national class in 2007 and a standing line to get new cars. Thanks for the encouragement Stan.
Chuck

I would love to understand the decision making details on this issue....:mad: Anyway....just sent my second letter.

My e-mails are on their way. :D

I feel like I am getting down on my knees and begging.
What a bunch of BS this is. I guess I picked a bad day to get my physical with how high my blood pressure is today because of this.

Tom

WOW, you guys can get ahead of my responses fast. Here are the rationale that I added to the original request. Anyone not readng the letter I sent to every FSCCA racer should look at our webiste as it is posted in the far right "communications" area (Tom, we seem out of synch, have I lost your correct e-mail?).

Facts to update your knowledge of the FSCCA community:

• There will be 110 cars delivered before 1/1/07.
• Less than 5 are SRSCCA cars, 5 are “ambidextrous” in use and we have a known 90 plus car active list for FSCCA.
• With almost no National competition my very accurate calculations (using compliance figures) show we will have brought the club 425 total race entries in 2006. This compares very favorably with some National Classes and is in excess of the strongest possibilities for some brand new National classes in the foreseeable future. We know, through close customer communications, that participation is transferable to the National level and can assure that total entries would soar given a National class of our own.
• We have a waiting list for the next 2 batches of cars for 2007 (not 100% firm now). Used cars dwell on the market for less than 20 days, and sell for 80% or more the new kit price…all signs of health and a strong future.
• We have a Customer Service Representative (CSR’s) for all but SPDiv and MWDiv already in place virtually guaranteeing the FSCCA community service and parts second only to the SRF community. (OK, and GLDiv now)
• The rules already exist, so no major task awaits you if you chose to allow this request.

Erik,

I have read all of the corespondence that have been sent and they are all very positive.
My only issue is with this National class subject. Many of us have been racing these cars for 3 or 4 years now (3 for me) with this goal of a National class and increasing car counts.
I am sure there are many upset FSCCA guys out there today that have just had their hopes dashed for next season with this November Sportscar issue. What is killing me is we have appeared to have met all of the requirements that SCCA has in place and yet no class for 07. What more can we possibly do? I would even go out on a limb here and say I bet we would have enough cars running in 07 nationally to get a 08 Runoff's race.
I have done my part (along with many many of my fellow competitors) by running regionally this past season and petioning the board in writing for National status. But what appears to have happened with F1000 is very hard pill (more like a bowling ball) to swallow. (No offense to the F1000 guys)
I am sorry to everyone for getting so emotional on this issue but in my 12 years of being in SCCA, I have never been this ticked on any subject more than this one.
I just cannot believe this will help car sales in the coming year or make the CSR's very happy.

Tom

IMO, this whole thing is one of the problems with SCCA. We don't need more classes. I can see the groups of the future now:

Group 1 - F-A, F-C, F-1000, F-SCCA, CSR, DSR, S-2000, S-1000, F-2986, F-newclassbecausewecantfigureouthowtorunintheclasses thatalreadyexist, F-whynotjustkeepaddingmoreovertiredunderpoweredwinge dcarstothelist,
F-Libre, F-SV, CFA, CFC, F-builtunderatreeinmybackyard,...

Group 2 - FF, FCF, FV, FCV, FVV, FVVV, FVVVV, FFFF, FFFFF, F500, F600, F700, F-greatherthan700butlessthan1000, F-this, F-that, F-U

Group 3 - GT-1, Gt-2, GT-3, GT-4, GT-5, GT-6, GT-7, GT-8, GT-9, GT-Libre, GTSCCA, GT1000, GTE, G-noge, GTL, GTH, GTwhateveryoufeellikedrivinginourclubbecausewehave nocontroloverourselvesandcantsayno,..

Flame away...

Tom, the paradigm for assigning National status was only changed 6 weeks ago, so why are you claiming that your hopes have been dashed? Good grief, brother, I've been trying to tell you how to go about it...will ya write me a stinkin' one-paragraph email? ;)

But you do ask a good question:

Quote:

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What is killing me is we have appeared to have met all of the requirements that SCCA has in place and yet no class for 07. What more can we possibly do?

---

Now, before I answer Tom's question, will you all please review 17.1.11 on GCR page 83?

Consider that there are approximately 300 races held each year by the 50+ Regions. Under the rules in effect for the past 20 years or so a Regional class has to average 4.0 entries per race in the top 5 of 8 Divisions. Let's simplify that by assuming there is perfectly even participation across the country (I know that isn't the case, but work with me here...). Averaging 4 entries per race is 4 x 300 = 1200 entries. Hmm, 425 is not even close to 1200, so let's refine the argument. The top 5/8 Divisions is 62.5%, so let's do the numbers for 62.5% of the Divisions, or, 4 x (0.625 x 300) = 4 x 187.5 = 750 entries, IF THEY ARE ALL ENTERED IN EXACTLY THE CORRECT RACES. That obviously isn't going to happen, but it is safe to say that a Regional class needs somewhere between 750 and 1200 entries per year for two years running to qualify as a National class under the rules in effect since the mid to late 80's.

In effect, F-SCCA needs to either double the number of cars running the same number of races, or each current car owner needs to double the number of races entered (for two consecutive years!) to achieve the required entries to qualify as a national class. So I'm sorry, Tom, but your class has not "met all of the requirements that SCCA has in place" to qualify as a National class. In fact, your class is barely half way there.

That's why the CRB recommended the BoD change the way new National classes are created. The hurdle is so high that only one class (SM) has fully qualified in the entire history of the Club. And just to drive the point home, SM had about 1000 logbooks issued before they actually first hit all the numbers.

F-SCCA is a far cry from reaching those lofty numbers, but that doesn't mean it won't be a success as a National class. Heck, there several classes currently qualifying for the Runoffs with less than 100 active cars in the country. One qualifying class has less than 50.

So write the CRB and the BoD at the addresses above to tell them you want to be a National class, if that's what you want. Then upgrade your license to National and enter as many races as you can if it is approved. Nothing creates success like success, but the future of your class is up to you.

Hope that helps...

Stan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Mihelich

Erik,
I would even go out on a limb here and say I bet we would have even had enough cars running in 07 nationally to get a Runoff's race.

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Actually, I counted the F-SCCA National entries after about 60 of the 69 National race results were in, and there had been 49 entries. Since the lowest National class (T3) had 173 National entries, it is probably safe to say that F-SCCA did not bump them.

Stan

Paul, you forgot

Group 4...SM

Group 5...SSM

Group 6...new SM :skull:

Stan, I think Tom meant we would have enough in '07 to get 1 of 24 Runoffs spots in '08. I know my National participation would go from 1 entry in '06 to at least 6 in '07. I feel I can speak for my three teammates who would also probably have 6 entries each, when they combined for a whopping 0 National entries in '06. With the ARRC our team will have combined for 32 entries this year (my fourth in FSCCA). I think it would behoove the CRB and the BOD to placate the 100+ RACERS out there, with who knows how many standing in the wings, and FINALLY give us a chance to prove what a benefit our class would be to National racing.

BTW, I've only stayed in one class (FF) longer than the one I'm in now and I plan on crushing that record with this car.

And, yes I've written a letter to the CRB (actually three, I believe).

If you read both posts with respect to becoming a National class, you can see SCCA's dilemma. One side is upset that their class did not get moved up to national status. For the reconrd, i was suprised it didnt happen as well and fully support it FSCCA moving up. I personally feel the class will grow further once it makes the step.

On the other side, there are those that are done right pissed that new classes are being formed at all and it is just a kick in the a$$ that they are being brought to National status. I get the impresson, right or wrong, that the belief is that if we limit the classes those that want to race will just funnel into what is avaialble. In some cases that may be true, but not all. I will race F1000 this coming year but had no plans to run in FC. I was going to run F1000 whether it was regional or national. There is just one example.

SCCA has a dilemma as they will always have a group of people alienated by whatever decision they make.

Ken

Ken- what's your thought process on the attraction of running F1000, but not FC? I presume here a FC with a 10K mile motor and proven competitive racing, not to mention multiple Pro series VS a set of recently written rules and a few of homebuilts running FS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SStadel

Stan, I think Tom meant we would have enough in '07 to get 1 of 24 Runoffs spots in '08.

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Opps, my bad! I thought Tom was referring to '06 National entries bumping someone from the '07 Runoffs.

Sorry Tom!

Stan

Why F1000? I have been following DSR for quite some time and like the technolgoy and revs of the bike engine. Also, the sequential transmission that comes along with it is pretty appealing. I have talked to suppliers and the prices range from 2400 to 3600 dollars for engine and transmission. One dealer had a brand new 06 GSXR (no mles as the bike was bought new and parted) for 3900. I thnk that is a bit pricey though and will probably be sold for less. That is engine and transmission.

So, nothing against the Zetec and its 10k miles, but wtih stock internals of the bike engine and possibly an SIR, it should run for awhile and be cost competitve to rebuilds/freshenings of engine and tranny against the Zetec. I personally think teh Zetec is great for FC, that said, I have also seen a lot of displeasure expressed about allowing that in FC from some of its competitors. Kind of my point about pleasing some and alienating some.

I have heard some people say the new F1000 design looks hideous, but I think they are gorgeous. I think in some cases people can't see the appeal of the others as they are on the inside looking out. That is fine, I don't hold that against them.

Ken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VehDyn

Why F1000? I have been following DSR for quite some time and like the technolgoy and revs of the bike engine. Also, the sequential transmission that comes along with it is pretty appealing. I have talked to suppliers and the prices range from 2400 to 3600 dollars for engine and transmission. One dealer had a brand new 06 GSXR (no mles as the bike was bought new and parted) for 3900. I thnk that is a bit pricey though and will probably be sold for less. That is engine and transmission.

So, nothing against the Zetec and its 10k miles, but wtih stock internals of the bike engine and possibly an SIR, it should run for awhile and be cost competitve to rebuilds/freshenings of engine and tranny against the Zetec.

Ken

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I'm not sure where you are getting your info on the reliability of bike engines, but from what I've seen you will not get anything approaching Zetec reliability.

The motorcycle engines are powerful for their weight, rev like hell, and come with an internal transmission but they were designed to be run on the road with a small contact patch and 600lbs of mass (bike + rider). Put it in a race car with two wide sticky tires, twice as much mass, and constant high revs and all bets are off.

Even with the supposedly cheap replacement cost, how much does it cost to carry spares and enough crew to perform a quick swap at the track? If you don't have that then you will find yourself with many ruined weekends when the motor gives up.

Just my opinion. All these cars are essentially the same, its a shame some organizing body can't bring them all together with a reliable engine package and promote the heck out of it.

"The motorcycle engines are powerful for their weight, rev like hell, and come with an internal transmission but they were designed to be run on the road with a small contact patch and 600lbs of mass (bike + rider). Put it in a race car with two wide sticky tires, twice as much mass, and constant high revs and all bets are off."

I think the rumors on this board of DSR engines (which are a bit more stressed) blowing up so very regularly are a bit overstated. We'll see how these stock engines survive.

Just my opinion. All these cars are essentially the same, its a shame some organizing body can't bring them all together with a reliable engine package and promote the heck out of it.

You mean FC and F1000? Sound great. But in reality the racers don't want it. Really they would like me, you, anybody to come directly into their sandbox. I have read quite a bit about the Zetec inclusion stink and that probably will continue as they make adjustments. On some levels I understand it, but things have to change over time for the viability of the class. Adding the bike engines would just have people marching on Topeka mad as hell. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

To me, FC makes a for a great class for those that want to race there. For that matter so does FSCCA and F1000.

Ken

I think the whole idea is racing and competition in conjunction with how much you're willing to pay to get it-the classes that offer an acceptable bang for the buck survive and the ones that don't die or morph into something else. Its great to have a 12,000 rpm red line, cool sounds and sequential shifting, but if there's no one to race with, where are you?

The people who race these different cars all believe they've achieved that or they'll change. The comment above somewhere that 60 of the 110 FSCCA cars sold were bought by FC drivers is a real statement that something was (or still is) wrong with FC... and FSCCA was the better mouse trap. [I think its almost a great car- just needs a couple of tweaks)

My opinion is that the cost of the pinto motors was hurting the class way back and that FM and FSCCA sucked drivers away with reason. Jon Baytos saw the problem with FC and was in a position to effect a change to the Zetec motor within the Pro FF2000 series with the stoke of a pen (and a good measure of risk on his part). He set the stage for the future of FC in club racing; the jury is out as to whether it will survive and thrive, same for FM same for FSCCA, same for F1000.

There are only so many open wheel drivers out there, and there are too many classes already.

I can understand the reasons a Motorcycle engine/gearbox sounds like a good idea to some people. The one thing people seem to overlook is that the Motorcycle companys change what they build constantly and every year come out with something "new"? If you don't have the latest and greatest "package" will you be left behind? How can a club police any equality in that situation? Seems like a real Can of Worms to me? Just my 2 cents. I have seen way to many motorcycle powered cars with engine and/or driveline problems spilling oil and/or parts on the track.:eek: I'll stick to a Zetec.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VehDyn

"
I think the rumors on this board of DSR engines (which are a bit more stressed) blowing up so very regularly are a bit overstated. "

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Most of us have seen it happen regularly, so its not really a rumor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VehDyn

"To me, FC makes a for a great class for those that want to race there. For that matter so does FSCCA and F1000."

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I agree. All those chassis are essentially the same. Tube frame, pushrod suspension, wings, etc. The major difference is what type of engine drives the wheels. The costs of a new manufactured roller seem to be within $5,000-10,000 too. So the problem becomes one of dilution, overall you have a significant number of open wheel racers but no one class or formula large enough to garner good run groups or national status within SCCA.

If they all could be brought together, then they would have quite the power within the club (like the other large groups). The question is how to bring them together? Write a rule package that equalizes all cars (and piss off many of the groups) or elevate one class to national status and screw the rest (and definitely piss off the non included groups)?

It would cause huge pain in the short term, but I think if SCCA picked Zetec or FSCCA and backed it strongly for 5 years you would end up with a thriving open wheel crowd. Of course that would require a strong leader willing to endure the wrath of those disaffected, but in the end it might just work.

Of course that would leave those of us without one of those cars out of the picture unless we switched.

Quote:

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Most of us have seen it happen regularly, so its not really a rumor.

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After going thru the motorcycle based race car in the early '90s, I think you will see more and more once the competition heats up.

I do not think the $12,000 engine will kill the class as much as when Enterprise starts dumping the former Formula Ireland cars on the market.

Quote:

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If you read both posts with respect to becoming a National class, you can see SCCA's dilemma. One side is upset that their class did not get moved up to national status. For the reconrd, i was suprised it didnt happen as well and fully support it FSCCA moving up. I personally feel the class will grow further once it makes the step.

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If the membership would ever band together and force Enterprise to payback all loans, accumulated ligation costs, and sell the cars at the true market value, the class will never reach the numbers needed.

Quote:

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If the membership would ever band together and force Enterprise to payback all loans, accumulated ligation costs, and sell the cars at the true market value, the class will never reach the numbers needed.

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Enterprises is making money. Enterprises is paying back their loan from the club. Recent litigation and litigation expenses were a result of very poor decisions by a former SCCA board of directors, and not the fault of Enterprises. Enterprises is under the best leadership and direction it has ever seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LJennings

After going thru the motorcycle based race car in the early '90s, I think you will see more and more once the competition heats up.

I do not think the $12,000 engine will kill the class as much as when Enterprise starts dumping the former Formula Ireland cars on the market.

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I agree, but I think the total cost to purchase a car capable of running at the front of the grid will be in the $40,000-$50,000 range and there are already plenty of classes for this. F1000 will only dilute the potential open wheel racers. Unless it catches on and everyone jumps ship into F1000, but I doubt it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LJennings

If the membership would ever band together and force Enterprise to payback all loans, accumulated ligation costs, and sell the cars at the true market value, the class will never reach the numbers needed.

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This is propaganda and has been refuted many times. Please contact Enterprises if you have any questions or want the facts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ktoombs

Enterprises is making money. Enterprises is paying back their loan from the club. Recent litigation and litigation expenses were a result of very poor decisions by a former SCCA board of directors, and not the fault of Enterprises. Enterprises is under the best leadership and direction it has ever seen.

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At their current rate of repayment we will all be dead before the debt is repaid.

What would happen to the price of the cars if SCCA called in the note and Enterprise was to secure a commercial loan.

It is a lot easier to "make" money while using "daddies".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LJennings

At their current rate of repayment we will all be dead before the debt is repaid.

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I could use this opportunity to crack a joke, say:

"Given the average age of SCCA members that won't take long."

But I won't.

Instead of repeating unfounded rumors, why don't you educate us all and post all the numbers for this loan and your proof.

Thanks

Anonymous roadrace27,

The "propaganda" may have been "refuted", but refuted means to prove to be false, and I don't think that's been done. Denied maybe, but not refuted.

For starters, here's a snapshot from SCCA's IRS form 990.
(The whole document is too big to be uploaded to this site but it can be found at websites like www.GuideStar.org)

Who wouldn't want to borrow $1Million + at 2.84% to expand their business?

Good luck finding this in Fastrack.

Also, it was established (during depositions of Steve Johnson and others, and using SCCA Enterprises documents) that SCCA Ent. was selling the FSCCA cars well below cost.

Regarding Kelly Toombs' assertion that:
"Recent litigation and litigation expenses were a result of very poor decisions by a former SCCA board of directors, and not the fault of Enterprises."

LOL, That's rich ! Like they were asleep in the back seat and woke up in a strange place!

Enterprises' CEO was in Europe in Sept 2001 trying to get Fran-Am's deal. His letter to Renault is attached (MSJ exh23)
Enterprises' "liason" was at the SCCA Board meeting in Dec 2001 asking that the Board not allow Fran-Am cars in club racing.
Seven months later, Enterprises had a concept and no more when they asked the Boards approval. Then they gave you FSCCA.

The sport truly deserves better stewardship than this.


Arden Weatherford

Nothing like a little dirty laundry to stink up the place?;)

Who is "Charles E Cottrell" ? He is the signer of the above posted letter as the CEO of SCCA Enterprises. Having worked pretty closely with Enterprises since its start, I've never heard of him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ALW

Also, it was established (during depositions of Steve Johnson and others, and using SCCA Enterprises documents) that SCCA Ent. was selling the FSCCA cars well below cost.

Arden Weatherford

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Wow, so all along the SCCA was trying to get us a good deal on racecars! Someone should be thanked. Isn't that the club's job? To use the collective purchasing power of all its members to get us cheaper things (insurance, track fees, cars, etc)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by roadrace27

Wow, so all along the SCCA was trying to get us a good deal on racecars! Someone should be thanked. Isn't that the club's job? To use the collective purchasing power of all its members to get us cheaper things (insurance, track fees, cars, etc)?

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The FSCCA price circa 2003 may well have been below cost, though I can't claim to know one way or the other. Certainly the intent was to offer an incentive, to jump-start the class. I have no problem with that, and I have no problem with the F1000 manufacturers who are currently doing the same thing. If you buy into a class in its formative stage, you can pretty much be assured that you're going to be a beta tester. A low early-adopter price is an incentive to put up with that.

There is nothing wrong with SCCA using its clout to work a deal/discount for the racer, however in this instance the point being made is that SCCA subsidized the car. That type of activity is not appropriate. If they are going to subsidize those cars why not every other new car?

Quote:

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Wow, so all along the SCCA was trying to get us a good deal on racecars! Someone should be thanked. Isn't that the club's job? To use the collective purchasing power of all its members to get us cheaper things (insurance, track fees, cars, etc)?

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While part of the job is to work on behalf of the membership in collective procurement, it needs to be done in an honest, open, and forthright manner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John LaRue

in this instance the point being made is that SCCA subsidized the car. That type of activity is not appropriate. If they are going to subsidize those cars why not every other new car?

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If all the allegations are true then they were subsidizing the class, since after all its is a spec series.

Additionally they were doing it at a time when they could have taken the lead in the open wheel feeder series and grown the club. That is their job. Due to politics, everything was delayed and now you have Star Mazda, Formula BMW, and Formula TR (all spec series!) diluting this market.

Why is everyone against building a successful single-make open wheel series with affordable cars? Apparently the club leadership can see that this is currently the most viable and successful option (SM, SRF) to grow the club.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by roadrace27

If all the allegations are true then they were subsidizing the class, since after all its is a spec series.

Additionally they were doing it at a time when they could have taken the lead in the open wheel feeder series and grown the club. That is their job. Due to politics, everything was delayed and now you have Star Mazda, Formula BMW, and Formula TR (all spec series!) diluting this market.

Why is everyone against building a successful single-make open wheel series with affordable cars? Apparently the club leadership can see that this is currently the most viable and successful option (SM, SRF) to grow the club.

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Then spend your own money, not the clubs!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LJennings

Then spend your own money, not the clubs!!

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The entire purpose of the club is to collect members money as dues, then decide how to spend it in their interest!!!

I still have no idea how people can think that the club spending money to provide us with a low cost, reliable, and fast race series is bad.

Ah yes - the Socialist Racing mindset at work : Everyone else has an obligation to pay for my pleasure. :mad:

As with most people, when I pay dues onto an organization, I expect the dues to be spent across the board for the good of all, NOT for the good of a few, NOR at the expense of those of us who have dedicated our livelyhoods to the Club and its members.

For the Club to use ANY portion of my, or anyone elses, dues, to subsidise the racing pleasure of only a few members, or to set up private businesses AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BUSINESSES AND CLASSES THAT HAVE BUILT THE CLUB TO WHERE IT IS TODAY, is totally dishonest and unconscionable. They did it with SRF, and again with the Canned Spam, and every one of you have subsidised those screwups.

You want someone to give you money to go play with your toy? Go scrounge it up yourself, or revert to using strictly your own, like most of the rest of the Club does. Or maybe actually try out the thought process of doing only what YOU can afford, and only on YOUR money.

The rest of us are NOT here for your pleasure.

The club spends everyone's money in order to recruit new members. If they didn't do this we would all eventually pass on and there would be no members left. To recruit new members they need classes that appeal to a large number of people. You apparently think SRF is the worst thing to happen to the club, yet the numbers show it is one of the most popular classes around.

The club spends lots of money funding other people's racing habits. When you pay only a couple of hundred dollars for a race weekend you are benefiting from the low rental fees, insurance rates, and emergency medical services that the club can bargain for. Lots of people get towing incentives for traveling long distances, etc, etc. Which other of these so-called socialist practices would you be in favor of ending?

If you want to take your complaint of socialist racing and prove a point, go ahead and quit the SCCA. Just rent an entire racetrack, arrange for insurance, and hire all the workers to put on an event for just you and your car. That would be expensive wouldn't it? Want back in the club now?

In all seriousness, why are so many of you in the FSCCA forum anyway if you so anti-FSCCA?

The Club does indeed spend money to recruit new members and put on the races, but the monies for those efforts comes equally out of everybodies fees AND is spent for the benefit everybody in the Club equally.

The monies that come out of everybody's fees to subsidise YOUR racing habit by subsidising the purchase price of YOUR car DO NOT benefit everyone in the Club equally - it is solely YOUR benefit, and in fact adds an extra cost to all of the participants in the traditional established classes.

There is a place in the Club for spec cars, and most who post here have no problem with that. The problem comes in when, for some reason, you seem to think that you are entitled to partially fund your pastime on MY (and everyone else's) dime!

I thought this thread was about getting a national class for FSCCA not rehashing the debate over Enterprises that has been going on for years ad nauseam. It's history......regardless of what happened nothing can change it now.

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Originally Posted by R. Pare

The monies that come out of everybody's fees to subsidise YOUR racing habit by subsidising the purchase price of YOUR car DO NOT benefit everyone in the Club equally - it is solely YOUR benefit, and in fact adds an extra cost to all of the participants in the traditional established classes.

There is a place in the Club for spec cars, and most who post here have no problem with that. The problem comes in when, for some reason, you seem to think that you are entitled to partially fund your pastime on MY (and everyone else's) dime!

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Check your facts and numbers please.

Enterprises is profitable. That profit comes from the people who buy the spec cars. That profit pays back the loan PLUS INTEREST to the club.

Therefore, the people who buy spec cars are contributing more money to the club than everyone else (dues + purchasing cars and parts from Enterprises).

With profit going into Enterprises, Enterprises pays back the loan to the SCCA plus interest. So SCCA gets extra money that it can use to keep dues and entry fees low FOR EVERYONE. SCCA also gets new members paying dues, helping lower the fees FOR EVERYONE.

So the people paying money into Enterprises should be the ones upset that the rest of the club partially funds its pastime off of their dime!