The $3,000 Zetec Solution

With all this talk about achieving parity between Pinto and Zetec engines (and the lack of money to experiment and find a solution) one has to ask why don't we just get rid of Pinto all together and find parity between an ECU Zetec and a carb Zetec? Why can't we just allow unresticted Zetec (carb'ed or ECU) into FC starting in 2008 and just dump the Pinto? Seriously, it would cost less to do than to rebuild your Pinto one more time.

Spotted recently in the back of an FC car this carb Zetec. Total cost to install: $2500-$3000. This same car (carb'ed Zetec and all) won a recent SCCA National event in FC. Yes Virginia, it finished first in FC.

Isn't this more what we should be doing? Finding a cheaper engine to install in FC? Do we really need an engine that cost more than half what the car cost? $15,000 for an ECU Zetec engine compared to $3000 for a carb Zetec engine?

Is FC just suppose to be a dumping ground for old trashed out pro cars? Is that the true agenda for allowing an Zetec (an ECU only one) into FC? One has to wonder.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...r/109_0982.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...r/109_0981.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...r/109_0983.jpg

Looks clean, nice job.

I'd like to see or hear the true cost figures for converting a pinto over to the carb'd Zetec. Please include header, pan, ignition, etc. etc.

Thanks

Don't forget adaptor to the gearbox, moounting farication, oil and water lines, cost of the carbs and the manifold, the cost of the header and the cost of spares.

I don't think that the intent of letting Ztec cars into FC was to provide a dumping ground for old pro cars as it was to offer an option to allow another viable engine option in the class.

What chassis is this? If you have a VD then adaptor is not an issue as the bolt up is the same for all.
Barry

Ditto on the nice install. I thought I remember reading something about Zetecs with carbs in the UK.

Rob Poma

I think this is the car that raced last weekend at the national at Kent Washington. This car evidently had tons of HP and illegally took first and second place points in FC. A certain friend of mine neglected to protest, so this car has a bunch of NORPAC national points. What kind of person would show up and race an obviously illegal car. This really sucks.....

Then your certain friend did the class and the Club a disservice. By allowing the individual to race successfully it undermines the entire process. And, to state that the car was obviously illegal without official proof, when the opportunity existed to prove that, doesn't help either.

Also, it shouldn't go unnoticed that our seemingly frugal friend had several thousand dollars to spend on his TT44 Ohlins shocks.

That should have nothing to do with the equation. If you are saying the friend did not protest because of "putting his money where his mouth is" then he has no claim to bitch. However, we can not start making inferrences about people based on their level of financial commitment.

Charles
I don't really understand your point. I have NORPAC points and was not at this race. This effects me and undrmines my lagitimate competition for a championship. How can I rectify this? Also, are you saying that there is a question about this car being illegal????????
What is your point????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????
I also notice from your profile that you don't even race in FC. Of course you wouldn't care!! Do you race in SCCA nationals or just vintage??

Doug,

My point is that the "certain friend" you mentioned is responsible for protesting a car in his class if he feels/knows it is illegal. Only in this way can we police the system. I understand your frustration at the situation and I don't know what you can do other than go to an event as either an entrant or racer and protest the car. You might be able to convince the Chief of Tech to file an RFA. I don't know if that can be done (Larry?)

My other point was that the fact that the individual has Ohlins shocks has nothing to do with the discussion. It appeared as if you felt it was a factor.

As this is a hot topic in the FC world right now I suggest all FC racers watch the issue closely and do their part to make the system work. We (the Formula/Sports Racer Advisory Board) can do nothing about "illegal" cars running. Tthe competitors will have to step up to the plate. I'm not saying you are not doing that, as you were not present. I would suggest a discussion with the certain friend about his responsibilities.

My"certain friend" made a deal with this person not to protest him if he let my "certain friend" win the race. In the first race my "certain friend" lost two laps in the pits and the illegal car got the win. In the second race, the illegal car let my "certain friend" by to win, thus taking second. My "certain friend" didn't really care about others who race this class, just his own curcumstances.

If it is the competitors responsibility to point out illegal cars, than why do the tech people weigh and check fuel of the first few cars in a class at impound? I don't think this is because of someones protest. It is because the club has some responsibility to see that cars comply with the rules. This was not a subtle bit of cheating. It was very obvious.

Doug,

I find this allegation extremely disturbing. I suggest all concerned read GCR 4.5 as I feel this definitely comes into play. I have a "certain friend" who was banned from Club competition for a year due to blatant cheating. I can see no difference here if this can be verified. And, I would apply the penalty to both drivers. Also, read GCR 14.1.2, 14.1.3, & 14.1.7. Also, GCR 4.8 allows for the Divisional Executive Steward to call a court to review a driver's or official's conduct. I see no time limit.

GCR 6.18.1 does place the responsibility on the Chief Scrutineer to make sure cars are compliant. However, he can not be expected to know the details of each class. It is, therefore, encumbent upon us as competitors to point out any glaring discrepancies. He should then (as I understand it) file an RFA.

I certainly understand your frustration at the conduct and lack of ethics involved here. I would certainly mention it to the Comp Board privately and possibly contact the Divisional Executive Steward. I would suggest strongly that any information be presented fairly, unemotionally, accurately, and professionally.

Thanks Charlie
I think you are right. I will try, but unemotional is not my strong suit (as you can probably tell!!!) Thanks again....Douglas

It has just come to my attention that certain officials at the race KNEW that this car was illegal but decided not to do anything unless someone protested!! This car was from the region that was putting on the race, so if this isn't a show of bias by the officials there, I don't know what is. I think that there should be some sort of investigation into this incident. If officials know a car is illegal (there was no question here that this car did not comply, it was very easy to see) then they had a duty to disqualify this car. This was a DOUBLE NATIONAL POINTS RACE!!!!!! I am sure that a Zetec with no restrictors and two big carbs can easily get 180hp or more with no problem. This car would be a dandy FS car, so no one is keeping this car from running. There are plenty or regional races.

Doug,

I agree that an investigation should occur. Follow the protocol, contact your Divisional representative (assuming he is not involved) or call the Club and ask how to proceed. Again, NO SHOUTING, OK? Calm and cool will get you a lot farther. Get your ducks in a row. Like Less Nessman, don't go off half-cocked - go off fully cocked.

Doug, My understanding is "your certain friend" thought you had told him you were "out" for the season. In fact, since everyone except 1-2 or maybe 3 persons already in the top standings in the NW division aren't going to the runoffs anyway taking points away is a mute point ain't it? I think if you had let your "certain friend" know that you needed/wanted points he probably would have protested the car. As it was, I think he had his own point to make. It's not always in the best interest of the party involved to protest someone even if they know the car was illegal. Nor is it "cheating" to decide not to protest either. If your certain friend had known your feelings were that strong he might have reacted differently. But that is a separate issue to this thread. Maybe you should call your "certain friend" and get some vent out. You probably find he's willing to listen. Unfortunely, the genie's kinda out of the bottle on this one.

Back to the case in point:

Wouldn't it be be better for FC if they tried to find parity between two similar engines than kluging some half-as* fix between Zetec and Pinto? Wouldn't it be better for the class in general to finally, at long last, get rid of the Pinto engine? Wouldn't it be better for everyone in FC if we could find a engine to put in our car that only cost $3000? Seriously, do you want to pay $15,000 for an engine? If that's how you all feel then I really am wasting my time with both this class and everyone involved in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smc

Doug, My understanding is "your certain friend" thought you had told him you were "out" for the season. In fact, since everyone except 1-2 or maybe 3 persons already in the top standings in the NW division aren't going to the runoffs anyway taking points away is a mute (sic) point ain't it? . . . .Nor is it "cheating" to decide not to protest either.

Wouldn't it be be better for FC if they tried to find parity between two similar engines than kluging some half-as* fix between Zetec and Pinto? Wouldn't it be better for the class in general to finally, at long last, get rid of the Pinto engine? Wouldn't it be better for everyone in FC if we could find a engine to put in our car that only cost $3000? Seriously, do you want to pay $15,000 for an engine? If that's how you all feel then I really am wasting my time with both this class and everyone involved in it.

---

I suggest you read GCR 14.1.2 carefully. It may not be "cheating" but it most definitely is a breach of the rules and, IMO, totally unethical and unsportsmanlike, regardless of who was amassing points or who plans to go to the runoffs. To many racers it is enough to attain a certain standing in their own region or division while playing by the rules.

As far as your "wouldn't it be better" argument, that truly is a moot point. You are clearly suggesting that breaking the rules is justified as long as you feel it is. As far as you wasting your time with this class and everyone involved in it - I agree. Stop wasting your time.

Charlie, Glad you speak for the whole FC class, especially considering you don't even run in it. But for your info, I probably will be getting totally out of FC and SCCA at the end of the year. Got no time to waste with people who want to throw their money away recklessly. As far as the GCR is concerned. It's a joke. The SCCA breaks it own rules all the time.

SMC (whoever you are - no public profile),

I don't speak for the whole FC class. However, as a Formula/Sports Racer Advisory Board member I have a responsibility to the group at large, and, as an SCCA member, I find your attitude unacceptable. If you don't like the rules then work within them to change them. If not, go play in someone else's sandbox. And, didn't your mother ever tell you that it's not OK to break the rules just because (you think) some else does? Or is that an example of "Extreme Ethics?"

GCR 14.1. BREACH OF RULES
In addition to any other offenses or violations of specific rules, each of the following shall be deemed a breach of the GCR

14.1.2 Any action having as its objective PARTICIPATION IN A COMPETITION OF A PERSON OR CAR KNOWN TO BE INELIGIBLE or not properly entered or credentialed.

14.2. WHO MAY BE PENALIZED
Any ORGANIZER, ENTRANT, DRIVER, crew member,OFFICIAL, WORKER, guest of the above, or SCCA member may be penalized.

I'm not an FC driver, but have been looking at it for a long time. I understand the point that Douglas was trying to make with the expensive shock setup. If we are to assume that this guy used an unregulated engine because it cost less and made a bunch of power....but can afford multi-thousand dollar shocks then something is wrong with the equation. I don't know what his motives were, just noting that the origination of the thread was discussing the inexpensive engine.

The pictures alone show that this is an illegal car. Why would you show up at a NATIONAL in that car? Why not run in FS at a regional? I'm not sure what the parameters of tech are. I had my engine cover removed (FV) and had my engine inspected in impound once because my exhaust note was "different". This was not under protest, just an observation by the tech guy. I would have hoped he would have disqualified me if he found a 1600 block or a dual carb hiding under there...and not relied on a competitor to file a protest.

That said, obviously the guy should have been protested and there shouldn't be any blame on the officials. It may have been a sportsmanlike agreement between the two drivers, but it sets a bad precedent.

James

Thank you James. This is just the point I was having trouble expressing.

If you feel that strongly Doug- Then you should protest everyone who took part in the FC competition at Pacific cause everyone knew. Maybe you can get everyone's points yanked and get them DQ'ed for the whole year and you can be on top of the heap after all the dust settles.

As far as my attitude towards ethics...I can be flippant and just say I don't have any. Not true. But is it cheating if your competitor doesn't mind if you run "that engine?", Or "that gas?" . Or that "additive?". Even if running that doesn't offically break the rules but everyone knows you got an advantage? Seen it hundreds of times. Nobody ever protested that. Equally unfair but totally legal. Is that ethical?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agitator

That said, obviously the guy should have been protested and there shouldn't be any blame on the officials. It may have been a sportsmanlike agreement between the two drivers, but it sets a bad precedent.

James

---

James,

I have to disagree regarding the officials. If, as has been alluded, they were aware of the illegality of the car, then they are in breach of GCR 14.1.2, possibly 14.1.3 and definitely 14.1.7. If the officials can not be held to a high standard then why should the rest of the group feel bound to? That attitude has clearly been stated by SMC. Unfortunately, ethics and morality appear to be taking a back seat in this argument.

I think you are using the term "sportsmanlike" in reference to a gentleman's agreement. I would not consider the intent of that agreement sportsmanlike. In fact, a stretch of definition could apply 14.1.1 in reference to bribes. e.g. "I'll let you win if you let me win."

I just discovered that this was a spectator event for which tickets were sold. While this does not make the offenses any worse, it does add a dimension of grandstanding and the possibility of bringing the Club into disrepute if such shennanigans were publically known.

So does anyone want to discuss the possibility of an inexpensive Zetec engine solution or do we just want to go off on some tangent about the unfairness of the whole rotten world?

Anybody?


..I wasn't planning to but since this thread went in a direction I was hoping it wouldn't I will unmask myself as SMC. No point in hiding anymore...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smc

As far as my attitude towards ethics...I can be flippant and just say I don't have any. Not true. But is it cheating if your competitor doesn't mind if you run "that engine?", Or "that gas?" . Or that "additive?". Even if running that doesn't offically break the rules but everyone knows you got an advantage? Seen it hundreds of times. Nobody ever protested that. Equally unfair but totally legal. Is that ethical?

---

If your car is legal to the rules using "that engine," "that gas" or "that additive" and you have attained an advantage over your competitors, then good on ya. That's what racing is all about. We all play by the same rules and he who plays to those rules the best usually wins. What is there to protest? That you aren't as clever as someone else? Or that you don't have as much money as someone else? To answer your question, Yes, that is ethical.

I don't consider it ethical. Anymore than running an illegal engine.

Thomas,

Then I suggest you buy a spec car of some sort because that is the basis of fair competition. Build a better mousetrap to the rules and win.

I would ask "what do you consider ethical" in this case? If I can afford those neat shocks, or a brand new engine, or new tires every race am I supposed to ask you to what level I may prepare my car so you don't feel I am being unethical?

After the hulabaloo raised over the schedule for equating the Zetec to the Pinto, I am amazed at the general lack of a sense of outrage over this blatant cheating (if the incident happened as depicted), not to mention the collusion that seems to have gone along with it. Next time I get s slew of emails complaining that the CRB is cheating on the Zetec again, I'll know where to file them, eh?

And OBTW, he may have bought the long block for a few thousand dollars, but the total cost of installation had to come close to what the whole Zetec EFI package costs. I'll be there isn't $2000 difference in the total cost.

And OBTW again, the Zetec won't fit into the vast majority of pre-1997 chassis, so what is your solution for them?

Stan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland

I don't consider it ethical. Anymore than running an illegal engine.

---

Well, then, never ever buy another set of new tires/brake pads/whatever if there is any use at all left on the old ones. By your definition, that would also be cheating.;)

Well now

Stan, I was told his total cost was no more than $3,000. For everything. Engine was bought from Ford Racing. Not sure what to do about pre'97 cars. But how hard can it be to build an adapter? Bet it's cheaper than rebuilding a Pinto. Bet it's cheaper to buy a Zetec and an engine adapter than to rebuild a Pinto. bet it's cheaper to buy a Zetec, an adapter, and modify your diffuser and whatever else you need than to rebuild a Pinto. This car was a Vector chassis.

Outraged? Why should I be outraged? There are disadvantages all over this class. What's one more?

So it looks like we could have an expensive engine in this class. The fact that so many seem hung up on what happen at one out of the way race rather than concentrating on the the big picture just proves I am wasting my time in this class. Focus on the negative, forget about the positives. We could have an engine in this class for $3,000! Doesn't anybody care about that? Talk about having your priorities outta whack!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland

Stan, I was told his total cost was no more than $3,000. For everything. Engine was bought from Ford Racing.

The fact that so many seem hung up on what happen at one out of the way race rather than concentrating on the the big picture just proves I am wasting my time in this class. Focus on the negative, forget about the positives. We could have an engine in this class for $3,000! Doesn't anybody care about that? Talk about having your priorities outta whack!

---

Thomas,

How about some numbers? You keep saying it will only cost $3000. Show us! Why would it only be $3000 all up costs to install a carbed Zetec in an FC chassis (assume a Van Dieman don't forget) yet so much more for a FI Zetec? Are not the ancillaries the same? As has been pointed out, adaptor, exhaust, etc. etc. I think you are accepting someone's line of BS about this because it has become your personal cause celebre. Back up and look at the real numbers. And, don't forgrt to factor in the costs of time and labor, such as fabricating, welding, machining that might be done by a skilled racer/mechanic. Not all racers have these abilities and have to pay for such work. Or, would that be unethical?

As far as the event, I would not call a Spectator Double National an "out of the way" race. Does that even matter? Or is it OK to cheat at an out of the way event but not a "major" one?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stan Clayton

After the hulabaloo raised over the schedule for equating the Zetec to the Pinto, I am amazed at the general lack of a sense of outrage over this blatant cheating (if the incident happened as depicted), not to mention the collusion that seems to have gone along with it.

---

If things happened as 'smc' describes, then I am outraged. Cheating is cheating, no matter what the motive, and no matter whether one of your buddies gives the wink in exchange for a win. If the GCR is member-optional, why stop at running an illegal engine? There are all kinds of boring old rules that shouldn't apply to 'me'. It's a slippery slope.

Charlie, You mean like when you pay hundreds of dollars to see a Grand Prix and Ferrari has one driver pull over right at the finish line to allow another one win? Seems to me a lot people on this site thought that was just fine and dandy. Isn't that cheating? Quite a few people don't think so. Isn't that unethical? No one got penalized on that one. In fact if I remember right, the guy ended up a world champ or some thing like that.

I'll see if I can contact the party involved and get numbers. When I talked to him it seemed reasonable that he was on the up and up. I did quizz him for awhile about it, but I didn't write anything down.

Can we get off the cheating nonsense now because it's childish, really. They do in pros, do it in club. Let's all grow up shall we? This should be more about getting a a cheap Zetec into FC. And besides, I'm not the one who was cheating. I have never cheated. I have however, caught more than one doing so. This was one tme I just didn't do anything about it. Guilty as charged. Dock all my points! Whatever. Honestly, I think I don't care anymore. Think I just made my mind up about some things today. Thanks for making it all so clear.


.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland

Stan, I was told his total cost was no more than $3,000. For everything. Engine was bought from Ford Racing. Not sure what to do about pre'97 cars. But how hard can it be to build an adapter? Bet it's cheaper than rebuilding a Pinto. Bet it's cheaper to buy a Zetec and an engine adapter than to rebuild a Pinto. bet it's cheaper to buy a Zetec, an adapter, and modify your diffuser and whatever else you need than to rebuild a Pinto. This car was a Vector chassis.

---

The engine costs $2595+ shipping from Ford Racing, Tom (Link). A dry sump costs the same whether one uses carbs or EFI. The headers cost the same. The adapter and mounting hardware costs the same. The spark controller (ECU?) costs the same (carbs or EFI). The EFI manifold costs about the same as the IDAs and manifold together. It's a wash, Tom. Maybe the EFI costs a bit more...maybe a grand or so. Please show me how he did it for $3000.

Quote:

---

Outraged? Why should I be outraged? There are disadvantages all over this class. What's one more?

---

Gee, Tom, you were pretty outraged that the CRB didn't get a Zetec map posted until late January, remember? In case you don't, here's what you wrote...

The map was suppose to be something called an "SCCA map". The map was suppose to be CRIPPLING. Not equal or near equal. CRIPPLING. They didn't like what they saw so they changed the map. They changed the map after the season started. And then they didn't tell anybody. Had to find out about it on a blog for christ' sake! That's being secretive. No conspiracy, just secretive.

...and then they wonder why no one trusts the CRB anymore. DUH....

I'm all for giving the Zetecs a chance in SCCA which is why I sent in a letter supporting it. But it has to be done properly and over a period of time. Not like bang...here we are. Suddenly everythings equal. Because everyone knows that's B.S.

This guy in Seattle evidently showed up sporting 180 or more horsepower and blew away the field with a cheater motor and you say, "no big deal!" Convince me you're serious.

Quote:

---

So it looks like we could have an expensive engine in this class. The fact that so many seem hung up on what happen at one out of the way race rather than concentrating on the the big picture just proves I am wasting my time in this class. Focus on the negative, forget about the positives. We could have an engine in this class for $3,000! Doesn't anybody care about that? Talk about having your priorities outta whack!

---

Okay, let's look at your "big picture". Please explain to the assembled how one converts an FC to Zetec for under $3000. Personally, I think the guy was blowing smoke up your arse, Tom, but that's another issue. Just tell me how to do it. That's all I ask.

Stan

Stan, it was RIGHT THEN that I made up my mind that none of it even mattered anymore. The schedule, the parity, all the talk, etc, blah, blah...none of it. If the CRB is going to spring pro maps on us what's the point of the whole process huh? Say one thing, do another. Make pro maps club maps. How am I suppose to know what's coming next?

So why don't we give the Pinto the burial it should have gotten years ago and allow both ECU and carb Zetec in FC. It's a just a far cleaner way of doing it. Face it, you'll never get real parity between Pinto and Zetec. You're chasing a mirage.

Well now, isn't this interesting? There are obviously several facets to this story. Without going into great detail on each point I would like to say a few things. #1. The concept of a carbureted Zetec to replace the Pinto may be worthwhile looking into. From the photos it looks like a neat package. #2. Is it cost effective? Maybe? #3. Is it legal? NO, not at this time. Doug you are correct regarding the points issue, if the car was allowed to run in the configuration as pictured with carbs, then it should have been disqualified and no points awarded. Some may say that if nobody protests then all is fair, I say B.S.. If this were true then why do we routinely weigh cars at national & regional events if no one has filed a protest? Is it not to ensure that the car is legal for that class as stated in the rules? The car in question is illegal under the current FC rules (I say that as a member of the Tech staff)and is not entitled to receive National Points if run in this configuration!

If the owner/driver would like, he can run the car all he wnts in FS. Granted FS is a regional only class, but he can race legaly, gain points, develop the car and petition for acceptance in FC at a later date.

I have no problem with someone investigating new engine options (we in the FF group have been doing this for years) but lets not destroy what we now have in the process. By sitting back and allowing blatant cheating to go unchecked we are only hurting ourselves.

One final note, I would hope that the entrant of this car is man enough to step up and forfeit the points, after all if you can't win playing fair then what does that say about you as a person?

I'll get off the soap box now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland

Stan, it was RIGHT THEN that I made up my mind that none of it even mattered anymore. The schedule, the parity, all the talk, etc, blah, blah...none of it. If the CRB is going to spring pro maps on us what's the point of the whole process huh? Say one thing, do another. Make pro maps club maps. How am I suppose to know what's coming next?

So why don't we give the Pinto the burial it should have gotten years ago and allow both ECU and carb Zetec in FC. It's a just a far cleaner way of doing it. Face it, you'll never get real parity between Pinto and Zetec. You're chasing a mirage.

---

If it doesn't matter to you, Tom, why are you still arguing about it?

And while we've been over this before, it is worth saying again. The CRB did not "spring" any maps on the Zetec. We tested map and IR restrictor combinations to find a setup that put the Zetec at an initial competitive disadvantage, as directed by the BoD, but "CRIPPLING" was never part of the equation. That word, and the emotional response that goes with it is your invention, Tom. As it stands the Zetec is 2-4 seconds a lap off the pace in Club trim, although it will get closer and will achieve parity over the next year and a half.

We are not going simply "dump" the Pinto. And I reject your argument that we cannot achieve parity. Parity in this context simply means that they have the same or very similar performance potential, which I believe we can achieve, but the engines do not have to display 'exact equality in all respects' to achieve parity.

You have those cost data yet?

Stan

Man come on that is just flat out cheating! As far as riggin up the finish thats an old Sat nite dirt track trick and just another reason I quit racin stock cars.

What kind of satisfaction can a guy get racing a car like that? All that work just to cheat?
Were there other drivers that finished behind the 2 guys involved and did they know about the deal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Douglas Brenner

My"certain friend" made a deal with this person not to protest him if he let my "certain friend" win the race. In the first race my "certain friend" lost two laps in the pits and the illegal car got the win. In the second race, the illegal car let my "certain friend" by to win, thus taking second. My "certain friend" didn't really care about others who race this class, just his own curcumstances.

If it is the competitors responsibility to point out illegal cars, than why do the tech people weigh and check fuel of the first few cars in a class at impound? I don't think this is because of someones protest. It is because the club has some responsibility to see that cars comply with the rules. This was not a subtle bit of cheating. It was very obvious.

---

I just looked up the results on Mylaps. Just click on the results for the two Group 1 races to see who the FC competitors were.

Let me get this straight....someone comes on the board under a secondary screen name. Boasts about a new cheap, but ILLEGAL engine for FC. Turns out that he was the competitor that did NOT protest the illegal car....and now doesn't like the turn the thread has taken and only wants to discuss the merits of introducing this engine.

How about being straight up in the first place. This discussion would have never taken the turn it did if Randy Keen had shown up at a REGIONAL running as FS.

Thomas, you really expect people to overlook blatant cheating and collusion to discuss the merits of a cheaper engine while you sit there and brag about how this guy won a NATIONAL FC race? Yes, Virginia (see the original post) , THAT is what started this.

If the original post had left out all the crap about this being a national race and just focused on "some guy" that has put in a carburated zetech at a decent price then I think you would have received a much different response.

James

Mark, there were no other drivers involved. It was a two horse race. The only people who might have gotten hurt in this were some that had points in the the division. But like I said, if they are "finished" for the season and none of the rest of them are going to the runoffs who got hurt here? Is this really about bragging rights to how many points you earned during the year? If that's the case they can have all of mine. I'm on top of the standings in FC in the NW divison and I at this moment I couldn't care less. And I earned every point too. Legally. Like I wrote, I don't cheat. Never have, never will. I'm also over 100 pounds heavier with my car than the rest of my competitors which means I have to drive twice as hard as they do. And no, I can't just go on Jenny craig and lose it. I'm always going to be at a disdvantage.

Like I said, this was one time I just decided not to make a big fuss over things because it was only the two of us racing in FC that weekend. Nice to have someone to race against even if he has an illegal engine. I wasn't thinking about others in the division when I did it. My understanding was they were either done for the year or didn't have a bone in the points race anyway. If they did, then why didn't they show up? How geninue can you be to not show up for race and then piss and moan because somebody took your points away. Give me a fu&%king break!

But if the truth be known I lost out too. I could have had first place points from both races. All I had to do was drive 10 laps in each race to do it. So I lost at least 3 national points in all this myself. The person who probably got hurt the most in this was me! Don't hear me whining and crying about it do ya?

Stan, it's going to take me a little time to track the guy down and get those numbers. He doesn't exactly just live down the street from me.

And I wasn't boosting about a cheap Zetec engine. Simply putting it up for topic. But now that you see what has transpired, wouldn't you use a screen name too? Also, I outed myself a whole page ago so everyone who has read the first 1o replies knows SMC is me! So I'm not exactly being sinister here.

And the fact that this was a National race probably would have come out anyway. The topic is over as far as I'm concerned. I'm outta it. And outta this class too. Just ain't worth the hassle anymore. And none of you are either. Why should you even care? Doesn't really effect you directly anyway. Most of you are just piling on to satisfy your own sick twisted desires at this point.

Anyone interested in a FC Pinto car? Will sell it cheap,. Just want out of this now. Just want out. Somebody, get me the h##l out. email me offline cause I'm done here. Adios.

I agree this might be a package to consider but it is absolutely the wrong way to go about. I don't know who allowed it or why this car was allowed to run in National competition but it is absolutely wrong regardless of any other credible or incredible rationalization on your part or the officials part.The rule book whether we all endorse it or agree with everything in it I believe that any and all competitors with any integrity realize we have to uphold to keep any semblence of fairness intact.This is an aboration of our rules and direct insult to our club.You the person who entered and drove this car must realize that you have shown poor sportsmanship and it should not be tolerated.The fact that you mock the club and rationalize the rule book implies to me you are not the type of member we seek.Shame on you and shame on the officials of the race.

blase' attitude about cheating. postings under an assumed name. desire to dis-infranchise 100s of pinto powered competitors. from what i've read here today, i don't feel like thomas' decision is a big loss to FC.

mark d

Good for you Mark. Bravo. Thanks for reinforcing my decision. Interested in some spares? Got plenty. Will probably break up the car. But the Pinto will probably go where it belongs. In the trash.

As one of the co-creators of the Zetec FC proposal I can say that Rick and I evaluated the carburated version of the Zetec before presenting the proposal to the team and tabled it as a later discussion due primaily to lack of R&D. Obviously there was a significant amount of dyno and track information available for the EFI version so we chose to focus there. Additionally the EFI gave us a lot of flexibility to "tune" the engine quickly and easily in the quest for parity.

In terms of cost, there are some cost savings to be achieved by replacing the fuel injection with carbs but it's not significant. As already mentioned, the big costs are the engine, oil pan, oil pump, exhaust, oil lines, water lines, engine mounts, fuel pump, flywheel, clutch, engine cover, etc. The costs are outlined in the proposal. If you get a junkyard engine, buy a lot of used parts and don't count the time you spend you might get one together for under $5k. Keep in mind that the pro series has done a lot of R&D on the current EFI engine to ensure reliability. For instance we evealuated the stock fuel injection to reduce cost but abandoned it due to reliability concerns. I'm anxious to hear how the carb version holds up after it's been raced and crashed a few times.

On the cheating thing all I can say is if I'd been there he would have gotten protested no question about it. With that said I would have like to run with him to see how well it runs and begin to get some data but I would have done so only if he agreed not to run for points as was done when we tested the Zetec at Pocono last year.

Looks like some really good work was done here on the conversion, I'd hate to see us loose this opportunity to get data, it just needs to be gathered properly. I'd love to hear what parts were used especially the carbs, intake and ignition but also all the other stuff like oil pan, oil pump (and all the other stuff listed above).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland

Anyone interested in a FC Pinto car? Will sell it cheap,. Just want out of this now. Just want out. Somebody, get me the h##l out. email me offline cause I'm done here. Adios.

---

So I went out and looked at the results and found an FC (in the hands of the NWDIV points leader, no less) going 5 seconds slower than all the FMs (and three seconds slower than the FFs). I'm sure there were extenuating circumstances, but don't get your hopes up for being able to sell your stuff at a premium price.

Are we sure this isn't the world-famous MattBerg under an(other) assumed name?