Zetec vs pinto question answered sun

Enough guesswork guys, we now have the facts. A true, real life race was run between a Pacific F2000 car and an 01 VD pinto this past weekend at Buttonwillow raceway. This is a 3 mile demanding track with slow stuff, fast stuff and medium speed stuff. Here's what went down. Our points leader J.R Hildebrand qualified 4th in his PR1 zetec car. As you know, PR1 does a lot of testing, and this was their home race. In the race J.R crashed and his car could not be fixed. PR1 then rolled out Les Phillips old 01 VD, which hadn't turned a wheel in over a year, and gave it to J.R to race Sunday. This car had a Zetec nose/wing combo on it. It ran the Zetec spec wheels and tires and didn't have the 3rd shock, didn't have a fresh motor, no trick do dads, just a good, solid 01 VD. Remember, J.R had never sat in this car before Sunday. Guess what, he out qualifies his teammate and is within .3 of pole. In the race he was about 3 tenths off of our car per lap before the p.o.s pinto motor gave out. Remember, no trick nose, no trick motor, no testing, no trick shocks.
SCCA should adopt our rules for FC and be done with it. We have a proven formula, one we have known for 2 years, and its the easiest to put into place. If I am wrong about any of the facts, sorry Bobby, we were kinda busy with our own deal. If anyone wants more info, call PR1 and ask them, or call anyone at DFR.

Could someone who was involved write a short report detailing the situation and forward it to SCCA CRB before they vote next month? The more information they have, the better.

Can someone post results from the weekend? This series needs better P.R.

I would like to see Zetec adopted. Made that clear here more than once. But until a Pinto wins in a straight up speed contest against a Zetec all this parity talk is just that...talk. I've heard all the yabba-dabba-do about "engine mapping", "close to", and within "ten tenths of Zetec times"...sorry don't cut it. Only wins will sway the hard core naysayers. Which is why I tried to get a couple of former Cooper series winners to drive my Pinto car at Infineon. Hopefully, to do just that , investing 12k of my own money...(okay, most of that was just normal rebuild money but I could have just chucked it and bought a Zetec). When my car wasn't ready I was hoping someone else might do it but nobody else stepped up (what a surprise). I also tried (and failed) to rent Les' car last weekend..not so much for me but maybe to run someone else that might be able to actually win. This is why I think Les should keep the Pinto's in the series next year. The proof of parity just hasn't been shown yet.

.

[size=2]Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think J.R had ever even sat in a Van Dieman before he ran it in qualifying.(Not even 1 hardship lap) He ran his Zetec all day thur, fri, sat, and the pinto for 0 laps before qualifying. He ran the tires on sunday that were on his crashed car. He ran a Zetec wing in front. He ran an old Ivey engine. Someone tell me this, if he had run the pinto car thur, fri, sat, with all trick parts, and a fresh quicksilver, would he still be 3 tenths off pole. Remember also, Mike Forest, the new 05 champ, out qualified J.R when they had the same cars, then J.R drives the pinto and is quicker than Mike. I'm sorry guys, but this seems pretty cut and dry to me. What "real world" test is going to be better than this? Do we go race dynos? Do we listen to people who haven't driven both cars? Let facts speak. [/size]
[size=2]All I can say is that when our team saw that car sunday morning in the PR1 tent, that was the only time all weekend we thought someone had a chance to beat us. FACT[/size]

What are the speeds like with the FC wheels/tires and not the Zetec size on the 01? Would this mean that all the FC cars would have to also purchase new wheels and tires, to be competitive?
Keith

[size=1]Last season Tom Hope did back to back testing with both wheel/tire combos and he felt the small wheels were better suited for the pinto car. I'm not sure why PR1 ran the wide/heavy wheels sunday, Bobby could answer that. My guess is that they wanted J.R on something he was used to since he was already going to be on a new chassis. [/size]

Could this be the thread that sets the record?
Come on yall 20 pages or bust!!!

You know I'll do my part.:p:

20 pages is not needed althought it would be neat. Just go to VIR Oct. 8th and 9th for the cooper series race and see for yourself. The top two Gold cup cars (Kniffin and Vassmer) were never close to the front runners. Top 10-15 at best. Do not get me wrong they were faster than many of the Zetecs, but not at the front. I have crewed at every race except Elkhart Lake and the closeness of the two formulas is not as mentioned as above. PR1 has been present at many of these races and contested with frontrunners regularly. Unfortunately there have not been any pintos in their mirrors on this side of the mississippi. If it were that close, I do not think Mr. Kniffin and Vassmer would be sporting Zetecs next month. Maybe Doug can give us his perspective having been on track. Just my Observations. See you at VIR!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the Pacific 2000 series on the west coast the cars are restricted through a remap and restrictor plate. Don't the cooper series cars run unrestricted except in Les' series?

Just to clerify...

The East-coast and Pacific Series run different rules packages. The Pacific series restricts the zetecs with a restrictor plate and ECU mapping, in attempts to create an even playing field so that pintos can race equally with zetecs. Your Vassmer and Kniffin example has no relevence to what is being discussed here, since the eastern Cooper Series runs their zetecs unrestricted.

and for my $0.02...

What Les has created out here on the west coast is the closest thing you can get to being equal. In my opinion (and i know in many others with first hand experience) taking the other variables out of the equation such as car preparation, set-up, testing time, budgets, and driver ability, a pinto-powered car in fact would be slightly faster than a restricted-zetec car. Reasons for this are that the zetec wheels, while they are wider, are sufficiently heavier--in the range of 25 lbs overall. In addition to the weight, they are smaller, punching smaller holes in the air and making the car faster in a straight line. The wing packages are different as well. The zetecs have to run the raised nose and less-efficient front wing, in addition to a less-effective rear wing which has to be run further forward on the car. The pinto cars also run a lower minimum weight, 40 lbs lighter than a zetec. Given all that, a pinto car's number of tires it can run in a Pacific F2000 race is unlimited compared to the four tire only rule for the zetecs to be run in both qualys and both races--a huge advantage come Sunday as we saw with Yorio getting the pole this year at PIR.

Bottom line, the zetec engine was restricted down to equal torque and horsepower numbers as the pinto engine. The Pacific series has run and tested this formula for the past two seasons and it has shown to be very close. Why hasn't a pinto won a race yet? Maybe its due to the overwhelming number of zetec to pinto ratio on the grid or the driver talent behind the wheel. Or maybe its because there aren't any big teams in the series running pintos and the young talent that has been dominating the series since its inception have all been from the larger teams.

I'd have to say that the formula in the series right now is as close as you're going to get to equal. In fact, I've said this before that if I were to go out and try to win in the Pacific F2000 series that I'd buy a pinto because I feel that the package is faster. What I will not argue is that it is the wave of the future or that its more cost-effective. But the rules that are in place in the Pacific series right now give everybody on the grid an equal opportunity to win.

Hopefully the SCCA boys will do what's right and allow this formula to run in FC.

[size=2]As a mechanic for the east and west series and also from the tons of miles i have done in both the pinto and the zetec i believe that there is parity among the two packages. Having raced the last buttonwillow race for the west series i am extremly surprised at how even with the difference in tires, motor and weight, you are looking at a fairly even match. I will agree with Geoff that the pinto has a slight advantage due to the tire size and the aero hole being created but what it gains in a straight line offsets what it loses corning wise to the wide tire. And the weight i fell just gives the pint that little edge it needs to continue to attract the guys that have a small budget or presently have the pinto car.For the big teams such as DFR, P1 and PR1 they have just made the zetec car look better by the prep and the caliber of drivers that are in each corral. It has nothing to do with one package being more domnant than the other. if there were and more restrictions to any of the packages it would really mess things up.so ya...... there you have it[/size]

Geoff. I was unaware of the restrictions for the west coast series. Sorry. I knew there was a series with restrictions, but did not put 2 and 2 together. As for tires, the pintos and zetecs follow the same tire rule (6 for the weekend starting with qualifying).

[size=1]I think its going to be tough for anyone to do a test that is as valid as this one. You had a kid driving his heart out trying to win a championship in both types of cars on the same weekend. [/size]
[size=1]He had just spent 4 days at the same track, using as many tires as he needed, driving 100 percent. Who among us is going to do this for a parity test? The results show what we have said for 2 years, the cars are equal. If any pinto guys who raced Pacific F2000 think this isn't true, let us know.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Also remember that at the last Cooper pro race, Ricardo ran faster than all UN-RESTRICTED zetecs in practice just by switching to goodyears. Imagine how fast J.R would have been on sticky tires.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]I think we would all love to hear input from the fast east coast guys as to what they think.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Finally, SCCA F2000 needs more cars, TODAY, not 3 years from now. Make the rules so that people can run in all 3 series, (Cooper, Pacific, SCCA), without much fuss. An open engine is the worst idea I can think of. Nobody that runs Pacific F2000 thinks its a good idea. If you must build your own engine, just keep running the pinto. Why screw up the best part of the Zetec car, the spec motor, by opening it up. Let QS or Elite do the motors. How many people will leave the class if they can't build their own motor anyway? How many even build their own? Pay your $3500 every 2 years for your brand new motor and go racing. Spend the money you'll save on your wife or girlfriend. [/size]
[size=1] [/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]

I generally don't chime in on these discussions, but I am going to now because I hope this thing gets laid to rest soon and allow the restricted Zetecs in.

There have been several of both cars ran from our camp since the inception of the radial tired Zetec. I have not tested a restricted Zetec, but I can only imagine that in restricted form it would be at a disadvantage. Due to the heavier wheel/tire combo and camber needed on radials on the Zetecs, every pinto car I run can easily brake deeper than any Zetec. I also believe that there is not much cornering advantage with the larger tires since the Zetecs have a disadvantage with the aero package. If Zetecs were in restricted form and had to use the same bias tires as Pintos but the lower downforce package, then the Pinto would surely be faster.

Even if the Zetec were at a slight disadvantage, I would choose to run them because the engine package has proven very reliable and cost effective. How many pinto engines can make two seasons without at least a cyl. head refurb and only be 2 - 3 hp off of a new engine? I can go through 2 Zetec engines for the price of 1 pinto so it makes it an easy choice for me. As Pinto blocks dry up there has to be an alternative.

Club racing is for trophies and not money so why can't we all get along and move this thing forward and have fun racing.

Bill Vogeley

[size=1]So tell me if this will work.[/size]
[size=1]06 SCCA F2000 cars:[/size]
[size=1]1) Pinto car built to same specs as current,maybe change caliper rule[/size]
[size=1]2) Zetec car built to 05 east coast specs, with west coast engine rules. Let car also run new 06 nose. Maybe run 06 calipers. Run spec pro tires.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]car 2 will be slower. [/size]
[size=1]problem solved. pinto cars hold value. class saved. everyone wins.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]pinto guys sell cars during season to bring in fresh blood (don't convert a pinto to a zetec car, you'll spent too much) and buy used zetecs. [/size]
[size=1] [/size]
in 07 you let the zetecs run a better tire to even gap, or put pintos on a spec tire to slow them and keep the tire bill lower.

3 years from now almost everyone has zetecs and we use the pinto cars as cheap entry level cars.

I came up with this idea in 10 minutes, I am sure someone smarter can tweek it to make it work.

[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]

Well, we're all in agreement here... can we email this thread to SCCA?

Also, I was only refering to the Pacific F2000 tire rule, not the Cooper Series rule which is 6 tires for both...

Comp board vote is in 2 weeks. If you have something to say, say it now or don't cry later.

Well, I wasn't going to go much farther on this topic but...

1. I'm all for Zetec adoption. I'm hoping the CRB allows it.

2. Parity is just a theory, and like any theory it has to be proven. "Close to", "within", and "running second" only proves it can run and run close, not that it can win. Saying it can win and seeing it win are two different realities. I like to deal with the real one. Like when it actually really does win. Not when it maybe should have or could have but for this or that... and until it actually does win, Pinto parity with restricted Zetec is an unproven theory.

3. There's this idea that those of us with late model Van Diemens can just "sell their car and buy a Zetec". I only wish it was that simple as I have certainly been down that road. I see a few late model Van Diemen's (some of them supposely excellent cars) laugishing for weeks sometimes months on end on the used car market without a buyer. So just selling your late model VD and buying a Zetec may not be as clear cut an option as it may seem. Some of us may have no other choice but to convert if we want to run Zetec. Especially now that Zetec prices seem to be going up.

Another reality, at least it seems to me anyway is that the only cheap Zetecs for sale (those in the $30-35K bracket) are the ones that have been converted from Pinto's. The real Zetec have always been in the higher cost ($37-$45K+) bracket. I saw a $30K Zetec for sale awhile ago that had so many miles on it that if it was an airplane it would have been in one of those junkyards out in the desert. Retired for scrap.

I see an average selling price of $26K for a VD Pinto (without spares). I'll take a real hard up buyer to pay much more. The going rate for a good quality non-converted Zetec seems to be around $40K. Difference of $14K. To convert to Zetec it'll cost between $18K and $20K. Figure you'll spend at least $5K to get any car you buy the way you want it after you buy it so cost-wise it's almost a wash (no car is "turnkey" especially ex-pro team cars...ask me, I know!!...I'm still cleaning stuff off the car not from the last guy that owned it, or the one before him, but the pro team that owned it before him!...not to insinuate that all pro-teams are like that).

Figure I'm better off converting something I know (and invested tons of time and money in) than buying something I don't know that'll cost thousands to get running right. Either way I'm just like a lot people here that want to run Zetec, about 20 thousand bucks short. Just wish there was a way to cut through the chafe and run both types of cars in Zetec trim. Or make the cost of converting more affordable.

To me affordable conversion is the key to opening the market up. It's the cost to covert that is bottlenecking the car market, not the engine choice.

As a Pinto driver in the Pacific F2000 series, I will state that the performance potential between the Pinto and Zetec is very, very close. Les put his Pinto car up to third at Cal Speedway before having to avoid someone else's mess; Jesse Yorio ran up front at PIR with his Pinto car, and JR did the same this weekend. Given these examples, it is clear that a well driven, well prepared and setup Pinto can run with (and beat) the fastest of the Zetecs.

The rest of us just don't have the talent/budget/etc. to challenge the big teams - but that doesn't meant the speed potential of the two isn't the same. I've been able to run with and have great battles with some of the Zetecs in the series, and us Pinto cars do have a slight advantage on the top end.

[size=1]The question of parity in Pacific F2000 is over, sorry. Time to move on to new subjects.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Some of the cars running scca races are nice, but most are not even close to pro levels of prep, and thats why they don't sell. An average beater 01 vd pinto can still get 25,000 easy, and a beater zetec sells for 32,000. $7,000.00 difference. Not bad.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Problem selling the pinto cars is that everyone is scared of the used motors. Used Zetecs can run just about forever, so buying a used one isnt scary (7,000 mile motors are the norm)[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Its true that you can't buy a 2002 zetec for what you sell a 98 vd for, but thats just the way it is. The cars are 4 years different in age. Run the car as a pinto until you see the light, then sell it for what you can. Nobody said you'd make money at this deal.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]I don't think the rules should be written to suit 10 or 20 guys who want to do the conversion.[/size]
[size=1]How many of these pinto/conversions are going to be done in the next year? Not many.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Who wants to spend a bunch of money making their car way slow?[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Write the rules so that the current zetecs can run today. Its the only way to grow the class.[/size]

[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1] [/size]

I really don't have a dog in this fight, and I'm in favor of Zetec inclusion, but I think there needs to be some additional discussion points here because I doubt the comp board will miss them.

The most obvious is the spec aero package on the Zetecs. Easily policed now in the two series because the officiating is consistent and the number of competitors small. To have spec aero at the club level will mean templates or some other relatively foolproof means to identify the correct parts.

I don't understand the issue with having one supplier for the engine. More suppliers should mean cheaper engines. I cannot believe that after 40+ years of spec'ing VW and Ford parts that the components cannot be sufficiently described to prevent horsepower escalation - and the use of an ECU means a set rev limiter can put an absolute limit on performance. If that's not the case then the club needs new national staff that can do the job.

I also still believe that in the greater dollar war, the equivalency of Zetec vs Pinto in performance is overwhelmingly offset by the difference in operating costs. That savings will turn into tires, neato shocks, or just additional track time.

If the Pinto guys get some cost relief in the way of components that make the motor last longer, it can only help the class more.

I've seen some Pro-level prep. It's taken thousands of dollars to get it off my car and put things right. Things that some pro team mechanic slapped on the car quickly to make some event years ago and never went back and put right. Dig down deep enough...you'll see.

If I recall correctly this $30K Zetec conversion car I mentioned was a Zetec pro race winner. So a conversion car can be competitive. It's after all the exact same chassis.

A beater Zetec will probably take another $10,000 on top of that $32,000 to get it right. $3K just to fit you in it properly, another $8k to get all the worn out and cheapo garbage off and bolt on real components. No longer looking like such a good deal. Especially if you already invested thousands in getting your late model Pinto version right.

Parity I guess is in the eye of the beholder. Just because some car dealer tells me it'll go mach 12 doesn't mean it will.

Once the (now fresh) Pinto in my car is gone at the end of next year I will probably be converting my car over to Zetec. Especially given the used car situation as it exists today. Even if I had spent $100K on it and and had it gold-plated it'll still be hard to sell as it's a Pinto car. I also know of at least two other Pinto drivers just in my area that will be converting (one currently converting and another who has already bought a Zetec engine that will be doing it later if the Zetec is adopted). This in an area not know for it's FC numbers. I can only imagine what it must be like in other areas where the FC numbers are much larger.

Seems to me that growing the Zetec car count significantly is going to take converting a great number of the existing Pinto cars over to Zetec. Not by dumping late model Pinto VD's on unwary buyers (if there is such a thing) and buying newer Zetecs.

[size=1]Sorry for all the posts, slow day. [/size]

[size=1]Its all about crossover. Crossover is the key between SCCA, Cooper Series and Pacific F2000. Now is the time to introduce the package proven in both pro series. Leave the pinto class open and let the pro cars stay the same, but with Pacific engines, so we can race anywhere, any time with both cars in all three series. Once you open the flood gates with ecu's and motors and the cars don't crossover, your done.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]If the engine builders get involved, do you think the motors will still last 7/8000 miles. Buy your motor from Sandy and get it replaced every 2 years or so for $3,500. If you want to support your local motor builder, have him rebuild the motor in your tow vehicle. [/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]As far as policing the spec parts of the cars, what about formula mazda, formula scca, spec racer ford. The tech people have been doing this stuff for years, so I see no difference.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]The current zetecs are ready to come in and race today, not a year from now. Don't wait for people to convert pinto cars to the new rule package being voted on or your gonna have to wait along time to build the fields.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Recap-05 cooper car w/pacific engine rules=slower than pinto, why are so many people afraid. Just let these cars in. [/size]

Most of this information is still up to date, albeit 1 year later.

http://home.mindspring.com/~rboltik/

[size=1]My point about the beater car was if you already have a beater pinto and you replace it with a beater zetec, you can do it for about $7,000. I didn't say anything about making it right.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]Goto the wanted section, post that you have 37,000 and you want a car, and I bet you can find a sweet car. [/size]

There seems to be some confusion on what the CRB will or will not be approving in October. IF the Zetec engine is approved, it will be allowed in any legal F2000 chassis. That means, among other things, F2000 tires/wheels. The CRB will not be voting on whether to allow ProZetec cars in their Pro trim to be run in FC. This is an engine proposal, not a car proposal.

Dave

[size=1]The current rule change being voted on will do nothing to bolster fields. Pro teams will not spend money on their cars to make them slower than pintos, so you'll get none of those people. A few people will put zetec motors in thier pintos, but how many people next year will put all that money into their cars to make them slower than the current pinto? Any guesses?[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]If you let in restricted pro cars, you bolster fields today. Sure, they will be slower than pintos, but I think alot of teams would run just for the practice. We let them run with atlantics, so why not as a restricted F2000. [/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1] [/size]

Podlesni84, in previous threads there has been a lot of discussion about many of your comments. But to respond to a few of the important points:

The current proposal is for the engine, but you WILL be allowed to run your pro car in Pro spec trim otherwise. The only required change is the tires and rims.

There was no support from a broad cross section of current FC owners to only allow the pro spec Zetec in FC but required to run pro spec trim.

The open engine builder versus sealed engine builder was a point of discussion. The proposed rules are the same limited preparation rules either way. The question is whether the engine should be sealed or not.

The current proposed restrictor/mapping is quite close to what is run on the west coast. A little dyno time was spent to make the bottom end torque a little closer. With over 600 pinto powered cars out there, there was only support to bring the zetecs in with a handicap which ensured that 600 pintos would not be rendered worthless by a miscalculation or bad assumption in performance. Then with the time table in the proposal, the zetec and pinto would be made EQUAL through weight and engine mapping changes.

Send a letter to the comp board with your opinion since that is the only official way for the comp board to get their input. If you want to have the zetec in FC (so you can run your car in full west coast pro spec trim but with FC wheels) then send a letter of support. If you want a sealed engine, say that as well. But there is no current proposal to allow a spec zetec car required to run in spec trim into FC since not one of the 10 FC drivers who helped put the proposal together supported that concept.

Parity is obviously only a part of the equation. I have in a past racing venue (boats) run in classes with obsoleted (from productiuon) equipment and know first hand that logic would dictate changing. For that reason I support a logical planned approach to change with a caution. Some other parts of the equation have to include costs and the economy in our country is greatly different by region. You cannot make cost/value assumptions in California that are valid in the midwest. I only hope the committee proceeds with a diverse amount of input in a fashion that is well thought out.

[size=1]Running the 6/8 wheels with bias tires is not an option for most all of the current pro teams. Here's why:[/size]
[size=1]1) Buying wheels, not that big a deal for most, but still a pain[/size]
[size=1]2) Setup on bias car and radial car is night and day, you wouldn't learn anything running on the bias tires[/size]
[size=1]3) The biggest reason though is the fact that the radial is so good. They have good grip, they are all the same size (don't even have to scale your car when you change them), and they are constistent all day long while lasting forever.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]The answer I believe is to let all zetecs next year run the 10/12 wheels with spec Cooper tires as an option.[/size]
[size=1]At a place like mid-o, they would be 2 sec. off. Who looses in this deal, I can't think of anyone?[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]I think most pro guys would still run as an atlantic, rather than change wheels/tires for FC. [/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]If the reason for not doing what I have mentioned above was missed, could someone fill me in.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1][/size]

The issue you are missing in car count is the trickle down effect. If we don't align the pro cars with FC then no new cars will be available to grow the FC class. I think that only 1 new car has been delivered in the last 2 years. This is not healthy for growth
Curently the only difference between pro and FC is tires and front wing the rest of the car is the same.
Allowing the ZETEC will provide an avenue for pro cars to be bought by FC drivers thus increasing car counts and ensuring the future of the class.

[size=1]You will get no trickle down with the new engine rule, and here's why.[/size]

[size=1]Heres what you would have to do to re-produce a car equal to say Ricardos pole winning car from last week[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]1)change to 4 way shocks[/size]
[size=1]2)change front wing/nose assembly to something that works[/size]
[size=1]3)third spring front end[/size]
[size=1]4)alum. diff carrier[/size]
[size=1]5)2 sets min. of mag o.z wheels[/size]
[size=1]6)new style rear bar assembly[/size]
[size=1]7)think of the future, more trick stuff will be coming (diffusers, rear wings, etc)[/size]
[size=1]8)then you have to build a zetec motor, because someones gonna build 'em with more power than the stock ones run in the pro series.[/size]

[size=1]add up just these things and tell me how much your gonna spend after you purchase your $40,000 zetec and make it as fast as possible under the new rules. This is just the big stuff, the list can go on and on between a pro car and a converted car. Someone will say that you don't need all this trick stuff, but maybe you should ask Ricardo how much faster his car is compared to January.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]and when you sell off the stock zetec stuff, you get pennies on the dollar [/size]

If someone wants to buy a used Zetec and go pro race it they'll have to go buy new noses, new front main plane and secondary wings, new calipers and new uprights to be on par with the new 2006 cars. Jon told me the new nose and front wing is 30% better so the existing pro nose is now completely obsolete. No one in Club racing will want it and no one in the pro series is going to use it anymore. Now there are light weight calipers so everyone will have to replace those or else they'll have a huge disadvantage in unsprung weight. The new upright is lighter too so again replace all four or pay the penalty for unsprung weight. Look at all the changes over the past 4 years that have been mandated! Keep in mind in just 4 years every Zetec owner has been forced to replace all their wheels, their nose twice, their front wings twice, rear wing supports and gears just to name a few things. If Jon decides it's cool to have a third front spring, adjustable rear sway bar or whatever on the Zetec then get your checkbook out. With that said I think the improvements are very good but I wanted to point out the hypocrisy in previous posts.

FC is an open class with open development. If we wanted spec cars we'd be FM or FSCCA racing. I for one really enjoy developing my car to handle the way I want it to. The Zetec FC proposal hasn't even passed yet and I know of two cars that have been purchased on the hope that it'll pass.

Personally I think the move of the Runoffs to Topeka will do more to grow the Pro series than any rule change.

[size=1]Last post on subject, I promise. My reason for this rant the last couple of days was just to bring up a few things that seemed to be missed in earlier threads. Hope I didn't upset anybody, if I did than I am sorry. You guys did alot of work to come up with the proposal, and I respect that. We all want the same basic thing, a strong future for these cars. Maybe some of us just don't agree on how to do it. (but can the zetecs still get the 10/12 spec radials;) )[/size]

I believe I am correct in saying that the proposal presented to the CRB is to allow a restricted zetec, at a lower performance rating, with gradual increases, until it is proven that no performance advantage exist between the pinto and the zetec, in FC trim per the GCR. I am sure that the West coast series, through countless hours, has proven that the two diffenent trim packages, with the two diffenent motors are equal in all aspects for racing purposes. The flaw that may exist is that equality has only been proven (to my knowledge) utilizing wheels that are not legal per the GCR on the zetec. The proposal only addresses the zetec motor as a subsitute component and does not address any other language in the GCR. It would be an interesting test to see the restricted West coast series zetec run a number of laps in the pro trim and then return to the paddock to bolt on 6"/8" wheels, with tires of the same compound and the most efficient front wing assembly and diffuser. Then return to the track with the same driver, on the same day to dial in the car to its full capabilities. I would suspect that the FC trim would be quicker than the pro trim.
I belive the mindset of the proposal was more focused on the heath of the class and it's existing car owners than the sale of new cars and its trickle down effect. To allow the so-called equal zetec into the class, without consideration of the current car owners investments, could be devistating to the car counts in club racing, if the so-called equal zetec proved to be superior. As the West coast series knew early on, it took track time to find the equation of equality. This was not found souly on the dyno. I support the restricted zetec proposal for the following reasons.
1. It does not religate the pinto motor obsolete.
2. The zetec has proven reliability for over 5000 miles of racing without a loss in performance
3. For the cost of about three to four engine rebuilds of an existing pinto powered FC car,
you can install a zetec to run in FC trim. (correct me if I'm wrong)
4. It will fit into many engine bays of current cars without chassis modifications.
5. For those who wish to keep the pinto, more quality motors will become available from
those who converted to zetec.
6. The more modern technolegy may attract people into the class, who would not have
consider FC because of the 30 year old motor and its known reliability issues.
7. The sealed motor ruduces the possibility of cheating. This too could be lifted after the
club becomes more familiar with the motor and its components. As well as the
competitors knowing when something is afoul on track. Sealing the motor and specing
the ECU makes it easier for the club to police at conseption.

Possibility of a $31-$36k zetec powered FC with data and spares
Roller with data and spares $15-$20k
Sealed quicksilver motor with injection, air box, ecu, loom, fuel pump etc. $13k
Engine cowl, alternater, exhaust, chassis harness, misc bits & pieces $3K

Used Zetec with spares in pro trim only $36-$45k
New Zetec with no spares in pro trim only $50k

This post is based on my opinions and some facts from reading the related posts over the past two years.

Jason Byers

Ok for purposes of this thread maybe nobody cares, but here are some facts on JR driving the Pinto - for what it's worth.

First - JR was as fast as the leaders on Thursday and Friday and made a bad call on set up for qualifying, putting him fourth. This is the first time in the last six races that Forest outqualified him - JR qualified second each of the two previous Buttonwillow races behind Podlesni. So this probably supports that the cars were roughly equal.

Second - JR ran the Zetec tires (and related replacement wheels) off his wrecked car as PR1's understanding of the rules was that regardless of what car you drove, you had to use the tires you had registered prior to qualifying.

Third - JR had never been in a Van Diemen or a Pinto. He did notice some handling differences, but didn't really think the Pinto was noticeably more powerful - just different.

Fourth - the Pinto motor seemed to be significantly less reliable - he has missed shifts in the Zetec numerous times in testing, once destroying the diff, but never hurt the Zetec. A few over revs and goodbye Pinto.

Fifth - great job Podlesni.

A few overrevs on a Pinto bye bye? Bull. I missed so many gears when I was starting out it was pathetic and never hurt my Elite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scott Gesford

A few overrevs on a Pinto bye bye? Bull. I missed so many gears when I was starting out it was pathetic and never hurt my Elite.

---

I think the point is simply that the Pinto is a grenade as it is built to its limit, while the Zetec is well within its engineering limitations as evidenced by its overall design. Since the advent of the Pacific 2000 series this discussion is largely moot as J.R. made abundantly clear. BTW, nice way to end the season Poodles, good luck to you and DFR next year.

Hi Chas,
If the group of changes for the 2006 Zetec series go through as you have listed them it will be a mistake in my opinion. I fully agree if the yearly layout for "updated" parts starts looking like 02->03 again the series will be back to struggling. With Primus no longer the importer I expected there was less motivation to change the class specs y2y.

~ Chris

Hey Chris,
I'd like to say that I think the new updates to the Zetec are very good and in the long run are the right direction. I do not believe they are mandated as some of the parts in the past have been so you don't have to go get them however it's likely you will be at some disadvantage if you don't. Just my opinion.

It's racing, change is inevitable and necessary. It takes guts to make changes since most people will resist. I applaud the direction Jon's taking to keep the series fresh and modern, it's certainly not going to be popular at first but everyone will eventually get over it and they will benefit. Remember Elan bought Van Diemen not Primus or the Pro Series so they can change whatever they like although I'm sure they work closely together.

Jason,
Excellent post, you've summarized the goals perfectly especially points 1, 3 and 5.

btw... no question the Zetec is a better engine but the Pinto is still pretty darn good all things considered. I buzz my motor about 4 times per race weekend. My last Elite lasted 2400 miles (30 plus revs above 7500) and just before taking it out I turned laps at Summit Point that would have put me on pole at the last 3 nationals.