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No.... Where is Reg official info posted?Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
1) More accurate to state the Regions might be happy with the changes, but they still signed up for the HST events. So
they must not think it is that bad.
2) I have not seen anything that indicates the two Bonus races per event will be exclusive to only Major competitors. That would seem to be a risky proposition for the Regions.
Brian
When I was on the CRB (which seems like ancient times now), I tried to sell something along these lines. I got nothing but eye rolls (from the polite people) and absolute disdain from others. Everyone had a "good" reason for not wanting to go that direction Oh, well.Quote:
Originally Posted by EYERACE
Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by EYERACE
The club tried that at Road America in (?) 2013. It was a good-faith response to requests, but did not get traction.
I have to say, this attitude in the SCCA really pisses me off. Maybe it's more a question of those who are willing to travel 8 -10 hours one way for a race weekend, and those of us who are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
This multi-tiered elitist attitude only seems to exist in SCCA club racing. If we look at NASA racing for example, there is no such multi-tiered racing - it is all regional racing, and finishing in a certain number of regional races qualifies a driver for their national championship race.
What really differentiates SCCA from all other club racing sanctioning bodies are formula cars and open cockpit prototypes. Otherwise SCCA would just be another organization running spec Miatas and modified tin tops. The SCCA should be embracing this differentiation and promoting our "real" race cars at all events, and not threatening to eliminate any of us.
Being pissed off at a reality you then proceed to prove is odd. As to embracing the differentiation, any analysis of class/category participation shows that would be self defeating. The real participation growth is coming at the other end of the spectrum; TNIA, CRE & TT. Something does need to be done to preserve formula car racing, but so far nothing has bubbled up that doesn't threaten one or another significant entity within SCCA including my proposed thought experiment to eliminate the Runoffs. I suggested a formal debate with that as the subject to be held over Zoom. The idea is to get all the possibilities out in the open in such a way as to avoid being ignored or dismissed. It was greeted like a communicable disease.Quote:
Originally Posted by douglap1
"Something does need to be done to preserve formula car racing, but so far nothing has bubbled up that doesn't threaten one or another significant entity within SCCA"
After reading through this meandering and frustration-filled thread, I can not but chuckle wryly at this statement. Would that this attitude could have been prominent way back when I was on the SFRAC (1990ish) and every bubba and his cousin wanted to establish a new class because they wanted to race a certain car which was not recognized. Some of the newly proposed classes were pushed by the manufacturers (I.e. Mazda and al) and others "seemed" like a good idea. (Who could have predicted the Frankenstein-like growth of the Spec Miata?) Unfortunately, the poubahs at that time caved to the pressure instead of standing firm and letting those racers who wanted to drive a car not recognized go elsewhere.
The Club lost its way many years ago when it tried to be all things to all racers (with money?). The djin is out of the bottle and way down the road.
Ed, I proposed a solution a couple weeks ago that I know will get you back on track based on your post_ I'll buy you the rain light. Please PM me and I'll get it headed your way. All you need to do is run three majors next year and it's your to keep forever. If ypu run less than three, Just ship it back to me along with $50 for my troubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
This is year 8 for us in FF. This year alone we did 22 races plus six test days for $22k total. That's $800 per day. The kid won 13 of the 22, the Cen-div championship, plus the Runoffs. Point being, this was a competitive budget. We used 9 sets of tires.
Prior to the recent inflation crap, we did the same on $15K or so per year.
The point being, its a lot but it's not crazy. The only thing cheaper now than in the 1970's is TV's. I think TV is boring,
Team, a proposal that is possibly more interesting and fun than just a Runoffs champion: Should we create a couple new grass roots/Do it ourselves National Championship Cups for the following separate FF sub-categories - Kent engines, Honda Engines, DB1, Van Diemen, DB6, Pre '82, Pre '98?Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Maybe its a nationwide points duel: Each drivers best three Majors where ever they happen to be against the others (where ever they happened to race) in their Subclass. A points tie being the fourth best result. If it's still a tie after four - joint champions?
Note - originally posted in the Facebook Formula F/1600 USA group
This upcoming Thursday will be the third Zoom meeting relative to this topic. 9pm eastern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
The head of the CRB attended the first one and shared a lot of good internal SCCA information.
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us05web.zoom.us/j/82013141123?pwd=6fYy6kZCrpFsUTp9IyE2YweV8a3HBw.1
Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123
Passcode: G5G7wm
Please attend. Especially if you own a FF.
I love the effort that is being put into this for our class.Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I firmly believe that FF just needs promotion and for the local guys to pick specific events (out of the too many events) to attend as a group.
Bob is already in the middle of bringing in new chassis for FF and FC, and QS has already tuned Sigma engines to fit in both classes.
No need to re-invent the wheel. What makes this class great is old-fashioned hard racing. By creating other sub-categories, that will dilute the class even more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think this budget is attainable when you factor everything in.
When I raced 8 weekends a year, we spent an average of 4k a weekend. And this was for local races close to home.
When I did FRP, we spent upwards of 6k a weekend.
This is with us doing everything ourselves.
I don't think you factored in maintaining a top-notch car, or things like maintenance for tow-vehicles.
Here is a little breakdown (3 day weekend - track 350 miles away):
Entry fee for weekend + test day : $750
Food ($50 per day): $150
Hotel ($200 per night): $600
Race Gas : $200
Consumable/cleaners: $25
Engine & Geabox oil: $100
1/2 Set of tires: $600
1/2 set brakepads: $100
We are already at $2525 and we didn't factor in maintaining racecar, having truck/trailer depreciate, maintenance of truck/trailer.
What's cute about this $2525 estimate, is this is the bare minimum for all classes to run a 3 day weekend in the SCCA.
This is not a Formula Car issue, the cost of everything has just gone up. It has to, that's just general inflation. It hurts when income has not adjusted for inflation properly.
Factor in an additional $600 an hour for maintaining a FF to a high level, if your wrenching on it yourself.
On a 3 day weekend, there is about 3 hours of track time.
3 hours * $600 = $2400
If you have to buy a truck and trailer to do this
Estimate $1.75 a mile for a F150 with a 20' trailer.
This estimate factors in the cost of both vehicles (that will need to be replaced every 12 years) and what it cost to maintain it.
Towing: $1.75 per mile * 350miles = about $600
To race a regional 3 day weekend at SCCA really cost about 5k.
And that's with you working on your own stuff...
Paying a good team will defiantly save you a lot of time, but might actually save you money - when you think about the team calling the shots: which will reduce accidents on track and dramatically lead to less failures. (ex: not looking for signs of failure, gear breaks in gearbox, and now you need a new box.)
I get asked constantly, what does it cost to get into racing. It really does depend on the type of program you want to run. But when you start looking at everything, the real cost is more than people think. Even with a barebones program...
Jonathan, trust me its everything. I have a separate bank account and card - and every single thing gets paid out of that account. All travel, entry's, license, gloves, gears, wax, oil, grease, every part, every rain light, harness, fire extinguisher, bearing, CV, every everything. Its the deal I made with my wife and she is very diligent making sure I'm not touching any other accounts. She uses that card to stock up on track food. Together we make sure there is $25K in on January 1st, and the racing stops when its gone. We have $3K left from this season. She won't let me start with more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Lee
I did a previous post in here somewhere with all the expenses for the year. Too lazy tonight to go look for it. But I remember the three items that accounted for 80%: Tires, entry fee, brake pads.
Hi Tony,Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
That's a great system you have there! Probably how most guys should race...
I think you and me are comparing apples to oranges.
My estimate is includes purchasing all the equipment, and putting a value on it deteriorating. Knowing that one day something expensive is going to need replacement.
While you are looking at what you spent this year for 2024 for x amount of weekends.
Some years you can do a lot of racing for not much money.
Other years you could spend a lot of money and not race much. What happens if you need a engine rebuild, gearbox rebuild, and a frame up all in the same year. Then most of your budget for that year is going to be spent on maintaining the car...
I know one person who spent 60k this year on damages alone.
Shoot, just to start out racing you'll need 50k minimum for that year. Between drivers school, buying a cheap trailer, then a used racecar.
While we certainly have a good group of guys supporting the class, there is just no way around it - racing ain't cheap...
I suggested something similar in a recent post: bring your "prior generation" FFords to FRP, have lots of fun, and crown your own unofficial winners and champion. There's already a Masters subcategory, maybe if enough of you show up Bob will formalize your subgroup. :greenflag: (call it RCFF resurrected?)Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
Team, In hopes of capturing the best ideas I've been reading about here, and the work B-Spec and FC did a few years ago:
Attached is a first draft of a FF growth plan for 2025. Please comment with suggested changes and improvements. And most importantly, what else do we need to be doing? Lastly, what's the best use for this document? This is OUR document, not mine. Let's create something useful we can use to guide our efforts. Mostly, we just need to write down the best ideas so we all have something we can refer back to so we know how to help each day or week.
Like racing, the results will be a direct result of our efforts.
Attachment 113558
So there I was thinking that SCCA dropped FF from the HST's because they needed to make time to add SMX ...
Here's the Sebring schedule; look at how early the last sessions of the day run :confused::confused::confused::meatball:
Geez - Union hours?
What time does it get dark?
That is interesting. They are also leaving 15 minutes between groups for clean up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus7
They need to build in extra time when inevitably SM, SMX and SRF will cause delays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus7
Comment about the Sebring schedule thing.........this past Sunday of Turkey Trot weekend, the last grid for a 35 minute race gridded at roughly Two O'clock.......by roughly then 2:40 > the group was coming in off the cool down lap..... with a 20 minute or so Impound. Everybody back to the paddock by 3:10 or so with the chance to pack up and leave well before 5:00 PM.........with the Track people, not SCCA, kicking everybody out by 5:00.
Eastern Standard time would have sundown at Sebring about 5:20 in January
Hitting the nail on the head here. It's not an issue of too many run groups or not enough time and entirely an issue of at the larger races, like Sprints, run offs, and sadly this year even the Cat Majors there are simply too many cars on track. I don't want to point the finger at any one class or group as crashes can happen in any class/group. I will not deny that in my experience I agree that SM and SRF have the highest likelihood of causing a delay/having multiple moderate to major incidents that cause clean up, sometimes before the race even gets going like at runoffs. That said my unprompted opinion is that there needs to be more time built in between sessions to allow for the unexpected cleanups, and also some way to better limit the numbers at super tours/promote an even spread of cars across all races, ie. have a better defined ladder of qualifications from regional, to majors, to super tour.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
That is a spectacular idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by MackRb15
As a sometime racing time lord (Operating Steward,) let me say I would also appreciate more time between sessions.Quote:
Originally Posted by MackRb15
However, when creating a tower schedule (the one competitors don't generally see when the Supps show a To Be Followed By schedule) and when creating a schedule for a big event like the June Sprints with something closer to a time certain schedule, things get a bit trickier.
There is a defined time block from start of first session to completion of last session (and mid day "quiet times,") beyond which the region will be charged additionally. That is the first and most important thing that has to be considered with any schedule.
There are requirements for minimum scheduled session times for HST/Majors.
There are recommendations/limitations on which classes may be grouped together.
There is historic memory of the capabilities and limitations of track staff and responders which vary from location to location.
There is the Brian Holtz Rule - The number of on track incidents is exponentially related to the number of cars on track - which must be taken into account.
HST requires that all session start times be adhered to (can't start earlier than the published time.)
It's been my experience that days fall into thirds.
There are a minimum of incidents enabling the tower schedule to be maintained
There are fewer than anticipated incidents creating extended delays between sessions and/or finishing the day early
There are more than anticipated incidents requiring subsequent session curtailment
There have been extended clean up situations in all race groups regardless which classes are involved or how many cars are in the session.
That's the world schedule makers and operating stewards live in. We all do our best, but some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you.
I just submitted the following letter to the SCCA:
Hello, I was a bit surprised to see the Sebring 2025 Super Tour schedule. Specifically, the early end time each day and the 15 minutes between sessions. Related to that - we did our first Runoffs in about 30 years this fall and were surprised by the one-hour time slot per race group. If we cut down on the white space time between sessions, there could be a lot more live track time which could mean more sessions available.
I propose:
1. 'Followed by" schedules for the entire weekend. This is not hard for drivers or crew to live with.
2. If there are eight groups for example, Maybe its "followed by" for four, a 15 minute break/catch up or a set restart time, then "followed by" once again for the last four groups.
Green to checker option for this proposal:
To encourage green to checker driving and car preparation: During the followed by schedule if a class needs seven or ten minute of clean up for example, seven or ten minutes would be taken out of that groups next session. Interclass peer pressure and prep help would soon reduce the amount of cleanup.
I realize that maybe the Runoffs schedule was to have podium ceremony broadcast time. Relative to that:
1. For sure there are people excited to see that, namely the families and crews who are present at the ceremonies. I honestly don't think anyone else would miss the broadcasts of the ceremonies.
2. The track time is expensive to rent - we should be getting as much green track time as possible for our money.
Note: All of these ideas are based on decades of motocross, motorcycle road racing, and karting experiences in addition to SCCA racing starting in 1987.
Thank you for your consideration and efforts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I don't have the time to write this out as fully as I'd like but I want to post something because I think that it might provide some helpful food for thought.
I think I'm one of the drivers that you've identified as an opportunity for improved SCCA Majors car counts. I'm a non-SCCA driver with a CF. I mostly race it with RMVR but I've also raced with SVRA.
When I think about running with the SCCA these are the questions that come to mind.
What hoops will I have to jump through to enter?
Will I need to make any changes to my car to be legal? It's currently legal for RMVR but would need a distributor change to run with SVRA.
Will I have to make any changes to be competitive? I'm mostly thinking about tires and any related setup changes here.
What does the SCCA offer that might make me want to run some SCCA events? Keep in mind that due to time and/or budget constraints running an SCCA event likely means skipping an event with RMVR or SVRA.
While the specific answers to some of these question will drive my decision making process having to do the research to find the answers has so far kept me from even considering running with the SCCA. I can already have a full fun, racing season without the extra work. I suggest that if you're prepared to answer these questions before reaching out to driver's like me you'll be ahead of the game. Maybe a short document with links to relevant sections in the GCR?
I hope this is taken in the helpful spirit in which it's intended.
Steve M.
Hey Steve,
thanks for chiming in - all very good points. I am your close neighbor by fly over standards (4 hours away). I too occasionally run SVRA events and am looking at more in the future with our FC driver and possibly myself in a Post club ford FF with ford power. If I build the FF I will also run it in SCCA majors with the radials as SCCA is my first lover (45 year member).
Glad to visit privately about any and all thoughts you have.
Jay Messenger
Amarillo, Texas (in about 30 days).
muleshoeracer at yahoo you know what!
Steve,
I started off driving in Formula Ford approx 15 yrs ago. Been running in SCCA for about 5 yrs.. I am currently in FE2, but would be more than happy to talk with you about what steps it took to get entered in my first event with SCCA.
Homeport for me is the Phoenix, AZ area. There are quite a few Formula Ford that run around here. Below are a couple of links which contain the location and dates of SCCA Regional and Majors event in Arizona.
Feel free to shoot me a PM and swap contact info's. Also, on the links below I am sure you can find contact info for the AZ SCCA region to inquire about attending any of their events.
https://azscca.com/saguaro-series-standings/
https://mailchi.mp/e3258601693a/scca...7?e=d734240aae
December 5th Zoom meeting: A link the the video files with audio is attached. The short story is that were successful getting volunteers to be the Points of Contact for the first seven Majors of 2025. Thank you very much to them and see attached image of the list of people and the task list we agreed to.
We discussed many ideas and it was fun and fruitful. Ideas we definitely want to do are:
1. A T-shirt noting our 2025 efforts. Is anyone in the group a graphic artist?
2. Create a website that non-Facebook and Apex Speed users to find us at, and learn about FF. There are thousands of Formula Ford IRacing participants who may be able to find us through the website for example. We want to tell the exciting story of FF.
3. We want to create fliers for each race that notes where to park, where the Saturday night cocktail hour will be, etc. Graphics help would be appreciated.
4. We need to make more progress on the Registry in the next two weeks. More complete contact information in particular. More posts on that topic to come.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12jO...usp=drive_link
Note: its a two hour meeting - I hope there is a way to run the speed faster:https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=113580&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=113581&stc=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger Racing
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGOffroad
Thanks guys. If I look seriously into running with the SCCA I'll definitely reach out to you.
This upcoming Thursday will be the fourth Formula F Zoom meeting relative to this topic. 9pm eastern.
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us05web.zoom.us/j/82013141123?pwd=6fYy6kZCrpFsUTp9IyE2YweV8a3HBw.1
Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123
Passcode: G5G7wm
Please attend. Especially if you own a FF.
Team, the driver registry is up to 159 drivers! Plus the first Majors of 2025 are only a month away. One of the action items from Zoom meeting #4 last Thursday was to ask this group for volunteers' to be the Lead person for each division. The nine divisions are listed just below.
Here's what you'd be asked to do: We are going to send an email to all the drivers who happen to have emails readily available in your division requesting them to contact you, their Division Lead. You would respond back to start a conversation about their plans for 2025 and encourage them to come race with us. In some cases it would be to do a race or two more than last year, in other cases to get back on track after a break. Part of that conversation would include uncovering the barriers and helping them overcome them, as well as helping all of us understand what barriers real people are facing. Plus it would be important to know what we can do to make racing more often fun for them.
We'd also want to encourage them to network with their friends in hopes of more participation in 2025 compared to recently. It's very likely their friends are not on our registry. I'd be surprised if as many as 25% of the drivers we know are actually on our registry. Please message me if you'd like to be a Division Lead for FF.
BTW - we chose this communication path to preserve the privacy of the individuals on the list, including you. Most probably would be fine with a "cold call" or email from you, but its possible some would not. So we're going to take a gentle approach.
SCCA Divisions are as follows:
NP Northern Pacific
SP Southern Pacific
RM Rocky Mountain
CD Central
MW Midwest
SW Southwest
GL Great Lakes
SE Southeast
NE Northeast
Thanks Tony for sharing. As several have said - the change from Super Tour to a focus on Majors actually makes life easier for most of our competitors and we are seeing a lot of excitement due to the energy and attention this has brought to our competitors. Not to mention the class as a whole. I think the thing that gets overlooked is we are a massive/diverse nation and these cars are loved everywhere you go. Yes, there are many local preferences but at the end of the day - Formula F/1600 are a blast and the absolute best training ground to develop driving skills in my opinion!
Jay
It's a shame that Mr. Farley.......of Ford......doesn't drive a (once known as) Formula Ford but instead races other virtually priceless cars. Maybe it's time to appeal to Mr. Farley for some help.
Positive news coming FV and FFs way.
Thanks again to Andrew Abbott who wrote the letter and to all of those that wrote letters in support.
From the latest fast track
#37307 (Andrew Abbott) 2025 FV Runoffs Qualification Proposal
The CRB is appreciative of the effort that you and others have made to rally FV competitors and the time spent to develop your
submission. We further understand that removal of FV from the Super Tours will may make it more difficult to reach the top
50% because there will likely not be as many cars scoring points within each conference. One of the objectives of the changes
being implemented was to increase competition and participation during the season. The increased level of difficulty and
competition to earn a Runoffs invitation that you anticipate is therefore not necessarily a bad thing.
Prior to introduction of the Majors and Super Tours, Runoffs invitations were based on the driver’s final point standing within
their Division and thus more “in line” with what we currently have in FV and FF. Earning a Runoffs invitation was more difficult in
some Divisions than others. Qualifying for Runoffs under the current Majors/Super Tour program is significantly easier than it
was under the previous system. As we move forward to update the SCCA Road Racing Program, a decision needs to be made
with respect to Runoffs and whether the qualifying criteria should be tightened or relaxed to a standard more in line with what
SCCA Fastrack News January 2025 Page 2
you have proposed. As important, we need to determine whether, and if so how, Runoffs can be leveraged to improve
competition and increase participation during the season.
While being empathetic to the increased competition and difficulty FV participants will now face in qualifying for a Runoffs
invitation, the CRB has concerns about the resolution you propose in that it would create varying standards amongst the classes.
There is a desire to maintain consistency across the classes and events that clearly conflicts with your proposal. That being said,
under the circumstances the most equitable decision is to change the 2025 Runoffs invitation criteria for FV and FF to the
following: a) participate in a minimum of three (3) separate Majors or Bonus Majors event weekends; and b) have a minimum of
three (3) individual Majors race finishes.
Per the GCR, FV and FF will still have to meet and fulfill 3.7.4.A.1.a but will be exempted from 3.7.4.A.1.b for 2025. The CRB will
further consider the additional criteria you have set forth in your letter (Part 2) as it concerns the qualifying percentage rule and
will announce any changes for FV and other classes no later than publication of the Supplemental Regulations for the 2025
Runoffs. We collectively look forward to large grids in both FV and FF in 2025 as a result of this change and your continued
efforts."
I sometimes wonder if they understand the irony of what they do & say.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
As a member of the Formula F/1600 Racing USA group I was in the process of drafting a letter but thank goodness Team FV beat me to it! Thank you FV crew.
An item I am seeking clarification on:
1. Does the tow fund dynamic change? I am not sure but I have been thinking on it. I do not think the tow fund should be a disincentive to traveling during the year. For example - I ran three majors weekends last year - in three different conferences. I earned the 16th most majors points driver in the USA (per our groups calculation - this is not something currently tracked by SCCA). I did not qualify for tow fund as I finished too low in all three divisions due to running only 2 races in each division. Of course with the announcement today some of this may change for the future - actually a lot of good news and opportunities coming out of recent announcements.
Again thank you to Team FV and to SCCA for addressing major (pun intended) concerns for FF/FV.
Jay
I know that most if not all of the FF, FV & F600 drivers are not happy with the current HST schedule eliminating the small formula class from being a run group, but I am trying to help in making the best of the situation as the chief steward for the Summer Sizzle @ MRRA (Road Atlanta, for us old farts) I posted here on Apexspeed for your help in making the July 19-20 Event at MRRA an outstanding event.
For those who haven't seen or read my post about the July Race here it is again:
Hello everyone, I am John Fine, the Chief Steward for the 2025 Summer Sizzle @ Road Atlanta with a bonus Majors Race for FV, FF, & F600 so that they may qualify for the 2025 Runoff's @ Road America.
I know it's early in the season, but for planning purposes I am attempting to get a feel for the number of small bore formula cars that will be attending this race. Driver feedback from you the drivers of those cars will help me ensure that we have adequate time on our race schedule to ensure that you have a great race experience at a Destination RACE TRACK!!
My goal is to have the initial schedule for the weekend done by the middle of February 2025, so your input is desired. Reply on this thread or contact me @ jefine3878@gmail.com.
Thanks in advance for your help;
John E. Fine
Chief Steward, Summer Sizzle 2025
John,
This is really great of you to ask. I’m a F600/F500 driver and part of a F500 vintage prep shop.
Unfortunately this date conflicts with the WeatherTech® International Challenge with Brian Redman at Road America.
Vintage racing is important to our class as this is where the many 494cc cars currently parked can race competitively. The 494 cars were made obsolete by a series of rules changes that made them uncompetitive for SCCA racing. We’re also trying to get them to come out to specific Majors and run as a “B” class for points and help us get our numbers back up.
And while I'm here, can you confirm that small bore Major group will be combined with the Regional small bore group as one run group and that the Majors entry fees will be the same as the Regular event fees?
Jeff Jorgenson
F500 Vintage Rentals
Quote:
Originally Posted by teamfun
There will be one Small Bore Formula Group for both Regional & Majors dirivers unless entries dictate otherwise. I will be working with the Atlanta Region Board & the National Office concerning fees. Reminder I will be writing the Schedule & the Supps for this Event
John E. Fine