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shielded twisted pair won't work?
Good advice. Wait for a mature product. Tell that to the SCCA.Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
That is what we used with guidance systems in defense industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
As a manufacturing engineer, I followed the specs/designs of the electronic engineers. So if I shield my cable to a remote FT200 display, am I grounding to the car chassis?
What fun is it waiting for a mature product.
Brian
I'm not sure I understand all the animosity here.
I am excited about this addition. I will find a way to fit in the cockpit. It won't be as hard as some are suggesting for most cars.
I am all for moving to a light panel based system instead of flags.
I have been hit and taken out of races too many times by people not noticing flags. A couple hundred dollars for this thing could have potentially saved me tens of thousands of dollars over time.
The animosity comes from the cost. Not everyone is an arrive-n-drive driver with a pro prep shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamuwere
While as a prep shop owner, I can look at this as a frivolous luxury that is insignificant as I pass along to customers doing events that cost 5 figures. But I choose to consider this as the 30+ year FV racer who managed every $10-$20-$50 in my efforts to pay entry fees and buy tires as I lived in poverty so I could race cars.
As a side note, in my 40+ years of racing, I have never had crash damage as a result of someone missing a yellow flag. We have a system in place which requires some degree of intelligence, awareness, and competence. If a driver cannot maintain that degree of intelligence, awareness, and competence now, why do we believe that they will suddenly develop that?
As a driver, I certainly spent a lot more time looking forward than I did at my dash (perhaps several seconds per lap. less if I did not had a timer display).
Post #352 says it all.
"Good advice. Wait for a mature product. Tell that to the SCCA"
This will undoubtedly cost some organizers entries if they push this through for use in 2024.
I fully appreciate the cost factor, in the inflationary market, I think it is a reasonable cost.
Replacing my afterburner rain light is another story. It makes me all unhappy.
Considering all the discussion about the development and evolution of the product (even from the manufacturer), I am having difficulty believing that this will be a "one time purchase".Quote:
Originally Posted by TimH
I have. 2009 Rd America Runoffs. FC driver missed an obvious-to-me waving yellow for a complete track blockage in the kink, and when I stopped, hit me hard enough in the rear to punt me into another car that was crossways on the track. This knocked me out of the race and caused me a cracked vertebra.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
If he missed an obvious waved yellow while looking forward at 135mph, why do we assume he would see a light on his dash?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Flags move (relative to your view). Dash lights don't. As someone who does sim racing where flags are always displayed in the same spot of the screen, that's a very significant factor.
But actually, that brings me to a very relevant point.
Is there a way to train on Flagtronics?
- You should be able to sit in the cockpit and have a buddy send test flags to you. This would help you train your recognition when sitting in the actual car.
- Can we get an identical module that wires into a PC over USB for use in iRacing/Asseto Corsa/whatever? I am aware you can get light doohickeys out there, but the value here would be that you can mount the literal exact same thing in the same place in your sim rig.
I would also argue that before Flagtronics is made mandatory for events below the Runoffs tier, it should be enabled at all tracks which have SCCA drivers' schools and new drivers should be drilled on it there.
This is why you notice that low oil pressure or high water temp light.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaJustice
I'm okay with a strip of LEDs added to my dash, but I want information in the places I already look.
- Forward 85%
- Mirrors 10%
- Dash 3%
- Flag Station 2%
(Just guessing on the %) - but the dash is mostly peripheral unless I'm looking for some specific info (lap time in Q, etc)
I don't want another place to look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimH
A 360-post (so far) thread, summed up in one line.
it is so amusing that people think that one undeveloped tool will cure all our troubles.
Did anyone watch the Laguna Indycar race?
We have a professional race series. Race control has video, a more developed FT-type system, many professional officials, communication with all teams, and many years of experience with these tools.
The teams have professional staff using all these tools plus real-time data and radio communication with their drivers.
The drivers are professional drivers with all the same technology as above. They also have extensive training, experience, and skills that make them some of the best in the world. Presumably they have some understanding of physics and contact between moving objects. Presumably, they have been trained in such procedures such as following team and official instructions when re-entering the track after incidents (especially considering the limiting lateral visibility caused by safety equipment in their cars.)
So why did 95% of the drivers make repeated errors resulting in damaged cars, ruined races, and continuous yellows? We even had a 3-time Indy winner look like the world's biggest moron by spinning off while battling for last place, and then trying to take out the leader by pulling onto the track without guidance from his team or officials. The reason is because our sport/business requires constant decisions by human beings in the heat of battle. If these guys can get it so wrong, how can we expect volunteer senior citizens in race control and "joe the plumber" amateur racers to get it right? I think that too much technology is much of the problem for many of the officials and drivers. Please note that I am a senior citizen myself and well aware of my limitations in multi-tasking with the current technology while restrained in the car by a device that won't even allow me to assess my environment by moving my head laterally.
Some people are going to make lots and lots of money selling an evolving but immature technology. This whole process needs to be slowed down. Let us start by having officials and racers improve their operation with the current technology and processes.
My oil pressure light is so bright that with peripheral vision I could probably see the glow if it were down between my knees. I don't need to look right at ANY of my lights to know when one comes on (or the shift lights flash). Flags, not so much, though a vigorous enough wave may catch my attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Thank you for the feedback and the productive dialog. We are excited to be working with you as racers and the SCCA. We do plan to offer niche variants to make install as simple as possible in these tight cockpit scenarios. We'll be busy at runoffs so may not have time to check back here over the next few weeks. Good luck, race safe, and we hope you have a great race event!
Clever spin! Thousands of units across millions of miles of race use for several years and rave reviews from race control speak loudly.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimH
It may, it may not. That internal bus isn't protected and isn't meant for external exposure. Take ESD precautions before touching the components.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
We've maintained the same platform for years now. Initial design involved glorious overkill levels of resources, expandability, and substantial forethought from years of automotive design. We have tweaked the hardware over the years and SCCA is getting 3rd generation production hardware. This is transparent to the racer as we don't deprecate your FTxxx revision 1 when FTxxx revision 3 comes out as some consumer electronics manufacturers do.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
The FT200 does currently have USB for PC connection but the communication method is via a drive, not a serial communication method. There are ways to implement and we do plan this but it will take some time. Any pressure or contacts towards this goal with Sim makers will definitely help.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaJustice
Race control loves it. Great. Door-slammers and tracks have figured out to install it. Ok. You've figured out the software and SOME of the hardware. How many millions of miles were there in open wheel formula cars?Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
This isn't about you. You admit you still have work to do for tight cockpits. My beef is required adoption before your technology is ready for all of us. When it's mature, I think you'll have a very good thing. Meanwhile, I'll say SCCA is all about autocross and gimmick rallies, as it was back when it thrived in New England. Racing is just a sideline.
BTW, I still run Replay cameras...
Flags moving is a very good point! I missed the black flag at Pitt in June and after looking around throughout the day, I kinda figured the problem was flaggers just hanging the flag out of the stand which are brown. I did tell the steward about the problem and he said that he would let the flaggers know.
At Nelson last weekend there was a black flag in the first test session and I went and told the person hosting the day that the flaggers were vigorously waving the flags and very easy to see. He did agree with me and said thanks and he would pass it on to them for doing a good job.
Ed
As another quick example of how visible the flag boards are in low-visibility rain/fog... this video does a really good job, especially considering how we know cameras are worse than our eyes on track. This session got to be absolutely miserable, but again, the LED boards were visible thru the spray & fogged visors. You were NOT going to see the flags otherwise.
https://youtu.be/-Fn2EWc7iRE?si=luwbA2m15dkrUWpU
I know this may be a bit of an ask... but would it be possible for FT to kinda maybe show us almost real-time concepts & development of the "niche variants" for formula cars in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
That may help soothe user nerves, and given the list of feature/option suggestions so far, also help FT come up with a more widely accepted product right away.
ApexSpeed member Mike Hinkle is a New England FV racer, and works at iRacing... just throwing that out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/mem...666-mikehinkle
I am surprised this has yet to come up in the 369 posts but, will there be "period correct" versions available for vintage racers?
2 questions right off.. WHY was there a YELLOW showing at T2 right after the start .. T1, T3, were green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
#2.. It seemed pretty obvious to me that there was a FCY going into the boot on L1.. yet Nathan continued to BLAST AT SPEED .. why?? Makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to 'close the gap' under FCY. He continues 'at speed' through lap2.. still under FCY. Has he NOT read the many times repeated .. Leader should drop to pace lap speed.. ?? FINALLY, he catches a 'back marker' coming out of the boot and blasts right past him .. at speed. He finally slows down 'a little', but continues and blasts by another 'back marker' on the front straight on the 3rd lap. What's going on here ?? Nathan IS showing remarkable car control in bad WET conditions... but.. he isn't supposed to be doing that. Half way through L3, the yellows disappear. It IS also a remarkable 'point' for the LED 'billboard flags', but ... What am I missing here?
Finally on lap 5 (maybe something else since there's a 'clip' in the video that might have dropped 1 or more laps. I can't understand what he's saying, but SEEMS he's finally slowed down in response to something someone told him on the radio? The camera view is pretty much TOTALLY OBSCURED by now. I can only hope that Nathan can see better than the camera. AH.. he wipes his shield (or whatever is in front of the camera) and NOW we can see he's run up on the pace car and HAS to slow down.
I don't understand... I guess I'm confused. Then the vid ends behind the PC.. and I can finally understand him saying "I'm so glad I kept it off the walls".. I think :D.
Was he NOT passing cars under the yellow?? somehow?
Steve
This boat has sailed. Why should SCCA wait for a 'hardware solution' for fewer than 10% of competitors? There is no administrative reason that those 10% cannot be exempted until a remote display, etc. is provided.
This platform is very well established and in current use. Nothing to the contrary has been posted on this thread.
Changes to the implementation software is where the development is at. This is somewhat sanction body specific. The only way SCCA gets this perfect is to actually use the system and make software changes. This is how ii is being done in Champcar with no major issues reported.
Brian
I was in that race in a F2000... those were actually yellow/red "oil" flags because it was slippery, we were never under FCY until lap 5 or whatever.... the color isn't coming thru too good in the video. my main point was the brightness of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
at the 7:13 mark he has a near-miss with the wall, and unfortunately was not the only one... the rain picked up quick there & all of us had issues. I got demolished from behind, you can barely make us out sitting there at 9:53, when they finally threw the FCY.
Bright but the yellow/red does not come through. Just blurs together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
Maybe instead if mimicking the stripped yellow/red flag exactly they could split the screen half yellow half red.
Same with yellow/blue.
They would be much easier to distinguish at a distance.
maybe. I would have to see it more in person. the video definitely makes it harder to distinguish, but it worked decent on track.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
I was thinking if they just made the stripes a little wider, that would be ok. doing a 50/50 split may be confusing to some.
Yellow with a red X and border, blue with a red X and border, but it depends on how many "pixels" they have to work with.
This is all kind of interesting to me from another standpoint. This is all about cognitive human factors. Many of the projects I worked on for the Navy had cognitive human factors at the center of them. To quote an old friend who was an F-14 RIO "how do you get someone's attention when their IQ shrinks to their shoe size?"
Now the Navy and Air Force did thousands of man-years of research in this area in the 50's through the 80's (not nearly as much since, despite the appearance of huge flat panel color displays). So what's been done with some real scientific rigor for race cars? Likely nothing. Yet there are a lot of good simulators out there to make collecting data easy. Before today's military simulators, we'd take the cockpit from a crashed aircraft, put it on a stand, spend several man-years in duplicating all the power and buttonology requirements for use in a lab, project scenery in front of the pilot, and then tape the exercise before spending 10x the time doing analysis of the tapes. It's not nearly that hard anymore.
Heck, you could drag a simulator to the track in a trailer and you'd get a hundred data points every weekend.
After last year's University of Vara we were going over Lessons Learned and discussing the number of out-of-zone passes that people got called for (we limit passing to specific straightaways and gradually open up more as the students progress). In an earlier attempt to address this we built a sign board with 2'x2' panels that had the number of the zone in red on a white background. If it's just the number, the zone is open. If its the number in a circle and slash, it's closed for passing. This monster board of hanging signs is located right at pit out, we point to it as they roll, we discuss it in the pre-session meeting, and 90% of the students or more have an instructor in the car. And still we get violations.....
And its much different for open car vs closed. In an open car, you just look up. In a closed car, you're ducking and trying to see around the mirrors, and the nets, and the pillars, and the guy in the other seat.
So I call up some guys at the DOT's research lab, asking them what standards and research are available that would be applicable for this situation and guess what - nothing. They're focused on the green, yellow, and white signage you see every day that's been stable for nearly a hundred years.
Well someone has a good idea of what works, otherwise the billboard companies wouldn't pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to put a huge Las Vegas LED panel right next to the freeway to distract you.
If you want to see how badly this is done in cars, just look at some of the flat screen MMIs that you encounter - and those guys have serious money. They just don't think it matters all that much.
And OBTW, this needs to be done for effing rain lights as well.....
Are you listening SCCA? Or do we now need to mobilize another letter campaign?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Brian, re post 371 , as a member of the CRB (I think) when are you going to campaign for that exemption for those with no place to put the unit?
I've read all 377 posts with great interest and have come to the conclusion that this is SCCA and SCCA will do what they want, when they want and membership be damned...
Brian is not on the CRBQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
This information is readily available when you log in to scca.com.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
Thanks for setting me straight Fred!!!
Gregg:Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
I agree with you wholeheartedly, friend. Again, this is not a growth industry, and we need to be penny smart. The technology is there by virtue lap transponders.
Gregg:Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
I agree with you wholeheartedly, friend. Again, this is not a growth industry, and we need to be penny smart. The technology is there by virtue lap transponders.
"Some people are going to make lots and lots of money selling an evolving but immature technology. This whole process needs to be slowed down. Let us start by having officials and racers improve their operation with the current technology and processes."
That is right on the money. Let the tech mature rather than making people spend money on it before it is ready
There are enough superfluous expenses in club racing without adding another one
Recent email response (blue bold text) from Bob Wright, FRP, not a prediction of what SCCA will do:
-----------------------------------------------------
Makes sense. At this point we will probably not make it mandatory next year. A little early for prime time ?
On Sep 20, 2023, at 1:04 PM, Dave Weitzenhof wrote:
Bob,
Sounds like there may be more space-efficient versions coming out sometime soon. So I plan to wait for one that has dimensions that will fit better (visibility, function, and steering wheel clearance) in my Citation before I buy one.
------------------------------------------------------
I cannot say that I noticed a big improvement in reduced full course caution time at the Runoffs.
The extended FCC time seemed to be a reflection on the competency of SCCA race operations. In the SMX race for example, they raced for 1/2 a lap, then drove around for 35 minutes behind the pace car, before checkering the race. Yes, I can appreciate that race control is a complicated job, but could someone not have realized that 50 mins was required to repair the track? It was evident, based on previous issues) that once the backhoe was required, the FCC would be extended by at least 20 mins.
Clearly, there are operational issues that need to be fixed, that FT will not fix.
Here you go again blaming everything on SCCA race control. There was no way to know what the significances of using a backhoe for repairs might imply. They are trained for race control, not track maintenance.
The Flagtronic system is going to shorten FCY periods , not eliminate them.
Brian
In the case of THIS runoffs, there were so few Flagtronics units in play they could not really be used to determine much. If the field is 'fully saturated', the results would be much better. The valuable thing for SCCA Race Control is that the unit will provide the 'exact' (more or less) position of ALL cars.. including any that might be OFF COURSE or 'in a tire wall'. Additionally, it provides 'guidance' about the severity of the incident by reporting the appox G-Force that impacting cars experience. THAT info can give RC a MUCH improved ability to make a decision as to how long an FCY situation might need to be.
I don't really have any idea HOW MANY were in play, but would think that the SMX class would likely be 'more populated' with Flagtronics units than any other class during the event.
BTW... the backhoe is generally used to MOVE TIRE BOLTS around and assist if there is significant guard rail damage. The front bucket is the most used part, but occasionally the rear backhoe is called into action. Both the backhoe and the truck/Trailer carrying new tire bolts move around the track at a snails pace. Seemed about 1 LAP of FCY after they leave their stations to get to the location of the incident... and they generally don't leave their stations before at least 1 lap of FCY has occurred - generally MORE than that since they both also wait for the EV 'evaluation team' to arrive on site and assess the damage and need for the other 2. I really have no idea if FT would have improved that. They can't really impose a 'Pink/35' or any other speed unless the entire field has it.
The 3 pace car implementation can make things WORSE if most of the cars are still packed up - like near the start. Personally, I was assigned my own PRIVATE PACECAR during Q2.. which placed me on the opposite side of the track from the rest of the field when we were finally released from the pace car(s).
Steve
Proviso - I saw NOTHING of the SMX race since I was working on my car at the time, so I know NOTHING about the incident. I didn't even hear the PA.
Makes sense. At this point we will probably not make it mandatory next year. A little early for prime time ?
FRP is doing it right.... Listening to their customers AS NORMAL
The SCCA also has not mandated it until the 2024 Runoffs. Although they've left themselves that option:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108622&stc=1
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/ima...AASUVORK5CYII=
Competitors need to get clear in their mind what the Flagtronic system can do for you.
1) It can alert you of yellow flag zones and help prevent more accident activity in that zone if the drivers follow proper yellow flag procedures.
From all the Runoff races I followed, I think I saw only one post accident in a yellow zone. Car lost control and slid off track.
The Flagtronic system does not help prevent driver errors on/in green flag zones.
2) Unless the whole run group has the system (race control can tell) then there will be no use of the VPC feature, Code XX. It is very unlikely any run group was fully subscribed.
Brian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Well, yeah. Somebody needs to accept that race control has serious issues which will not be solved by a money-grabbing new toy. If by Saturday morning, we had figured out that the backhoe activation meant extended delays, then surely someone in race control should have been able to form the same conclusion. The TV coverage should have helped significantly. If the TV coverage was not used as a tool, then that just supports my assertions.
Having the field drive behind the pace car for over 30 minutes is inexcusable, and I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise. Would you be understanding of the process if it was you who spent all the time and money to be there, raced for less than a lap, and then followed the pace car for 30+ minutes before being checkered?
This is you opinion...always has been. Just because someone disagrees with how a situation is handled does not make it a serious issue that needs solving.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
I have experienced FCY racing many times, so do not say that I have no understanding. Ruined races have aways been part of SCCA racing and always will be. Every run group should eat the delays they create. I have no empathy for such situations, nor expect any. There is no crying in motor racing.
The SMX race: I am going to ASSUME: Race control has a script for almost every race situation by this time. The only judgement involved is choosing what script to follow based on the facts of the situation. The Runoff race groups had specific time frames. Even though SMX was the last event, I can imagine that there was a contractual shut down time for the day.
So, driving around behind the pace car or sitting in the pits, does it really matter? I think not.
Brian
Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
I was not in race control, but their thinking was pretty clear and understandable.
It was a 40-minute race. Clock stoppages are at the discretion of the race director. (From the supps:" Clock stoppages will be at the discretion of the Race Director and are NON-PROTESTABLE.") Since SMX was essentially a demonstration race, not a championship race, and since there was going to be a second race, I can understand why the race director would not stop the clock for a BFA. I believe they did stop the clock for at least one championship race.
Further, until one knows the full extent of the cleanup time, it is always better to keep cars circulating behind the SC. Bringing the cars into the pits under BFA means another (slow) pace lap, and less potential racing. Having the cars already on track under FCY speeds up any return to racing.
If I were race director, I would have made the same decision: Have the pack circulate behind the safety car until it became impossible to go back to Green, then Checker. Given the non-championship status of the SMX races, do not stop the clock.
I find it mind-blowing that we treat "customers" this way. That some people accept mediocracy/incompetence is beyond my comprehension. If I ran my business that way, or anybody else ran their business as such, that business would fail immediately.
Does it matter that SMX is not a championship race? They paid their money. Based on 17 cars, they contributed more to the entry fee revenue than half the other races. In terms of "the show" for spectators they would be one of the better races. Every class should get a minimum of 4 laps of racing. That definitely falls into the "mediocracy" status but it is better than zero.
That people believe that a new toy will fix all these problems is also mind-blowing.
The racing I saw was very good. There was just not enough of it. The delays in activating the backhoe were unnecessary. As soon as we saw that backhoe appear, we knew that it was going to be an extended delay, and usually gave up our viewing spot and headed back to the cooler for supplies.
If the product is to be improved, race operations needs to do a better job. Period!
In a perfect world, those two Miatas would not have gone into the tire wall and you would have enjoyed an exciting 15-lap SMX race.
However, once they did put themselves into the tire wall, it stopped being a perfect world, and the question became: How to allocate the cost (i.e. time to repair the tire wall) for their incident?
Given that it was a demonstration race, not a championship race, it was a reasonable decision not to stop the clock, and to assign the time cost to SMX. I note that race control did stop the clock for at least one championship race.
The ONLY situation that could possibly see improvement with the 'new toy' is a local yellow,Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
when crews need to get on track with the race cars and remove a disabled car.
Slowing the field with the Purple 85 will get crews on and off faster.
But that is going to take PRACTICE and TRUST and FULL participation.
Other than that, it will become a tool of disagreement (like video can be) if the RD starts to hand out penalties for speeding or passing under yellow.
I'm waiting as long as I can on this.
Blame the customer! That is the logic that is the core of SCCA problems. Whether it was a championship race or not, they were customers who paid their way. There were 15 customers that did not crash, who paid their way to be there. SCCA just shrugged their shoulders and said "what do you want us to do?" Good leadership finds solutions to problems such as this. Saturday had an extra hour to work (GT1 cancelled) with but did they take advantage of that time? Did they add 8 or 10 minutes to each race? No. The FV race, among others, finished under yellow while the extra time was ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nesbitt
It is no wonder that entries are down, especially in the classes that have options to race with other groups.
The SMX race was just one example of delays with poor conclusions. I am sure race control will blame their customers in those cases too. Are we still going to blame the customer once they pay $300 for FT?
I wasn't at the Runoffs so can't comment on the specifics of this situation, but there is a general operating procedure that's followed everywhere whether it's a driver's school/regional, Majors, Super Tour, Runoffs or FRP. Any on track incident requiring ES and/or track maintenance response is effectively under their control, not Race Control. ES/track staff are in communication with Race Control and tell RC how long something will take. My limited experience at VIR suggests there may be a culture of less than perfect cooperation from track staff/ES. If maintenance misjudged recovery time, that's not on Race Control.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Scratching my head on where I'm supposed to put this stupid thing in my Vee. Short of mounting it on the exterior body work, I got nothing. Between this FT and the rainlight nonsense, I can't wait to finish up my next car that will allow me to race outside of SCCA events to maintain a current comp license.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108655&stc=1