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bill, excellent suggestion. i saw todd's car at the 40th and it seems obvious to me the degree of intent there is to support us from Honda. i probably spent more time with sandy this weekend than anybody (unfortunately not at the bar) and there is no doubt of the longevity and corresponding economic impact this motor could have on our class. i have sent my email to the board voicing my support and hope all those in favor on this thread do the same.
Plus another cool factor is with the fit engine, the FF will be JDM tyte! :thumbsup: I say that kidding, but I bet it put's the car in a lot of younger Japanese sports car enthusiasts heads, that would have never thought of racing a FF car before. I know my 60 year old neighbor, who is the biggest F1 fan alive, flipped out when I talked to him yesterday about what engine may be going in FF. He was really excited about it, guess why? He drives a Fit. He was grinning ear to ear, and immediately popped his hood so we could look at his formula engine. :D This is no lie I wish I had a video camera rolling. I told him he might come out one morning and have his engine sitting in my garage. Now he want's me to build a FFit.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeL
amazing. in less than 10 minutes i got a response fro John Bauer saying that my support would be forwarded to the Club Racing Board for consideration. i urge everyone else to do the same....ric
That's an automated acknowledgment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ric baribeault
But, yes, definitely send your support/opposition to the CRB. That's where the decision will be made, and they don't scan the forums looking for input.
Ric, I wish I could have come out for the Festival, I was bummed. I talked to Neil Porter and Clay Arnold on their way home and everyone seemed to have a geniune blast. I really would have liked to see the FIT car up close and personal as well. I am very excited about this development. When a long time competitor like Douglas Brenner, who had hung up his spurs, starts thinking about coming back into racing because of this project, that is a really good sign. I got my fingers crossed. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by ric baribeault
Is there any direction on a migration path for the engines into FF? Such as initially approved for National competition and after 2 years they are approved for Regional competition and 2 years later vintage? My only concern with approving it across all subgroups is making alot of Kent motors obsolete. Just food for thought I am not proposing this only that this should be a consideration. I personally am for it and think HPD, Sandy and Todd did a great job on the conversion. Also if there is such a plan then SCCA needs to hold true to it versus the Zetec fuzzy timeline.
Joe
Quite so, but it IS certainly the case that if the decision is taken to admit the Honda into FF, then the follow-on decision is binary: Either we go through a formal process of selecting a single replacement engine for the Kent, or we come up with a process for admitting new engines that anyone can follow. The details to that second choice are open for discussion, but I do not believe that the Club can simply accept Honda's proposal and then slam the door to any follow-on requests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wren
This is rank speculation on your part, Wren, not incontrovertible fact.Quote:
Multiple new engines will drive people from this class quite quickly.
Again, you are speculating. Multi-engine classes abound in the Club devoid of equalization bickering...FA, SM, pretty much all Prod classes, to name some. GTL is about the only class with intractable equalization issues, and those issues really don't have much to do with the engines.Quote:
I cannot imagine that any FF driver wants to end up like the tin-top classes that do nothing but sit around and bitch about performance equalization.
Well, okay. If you cannot understand Honda's motivation I am not surprised that you can't understand anyone else's... :DQuote:
I have a hard time imagining another car manufacturer wanting to get involved with a club no one has heard of and a class no one cares about(I really don't understand Honda's motivation). But, if they do, nothing could possibly stop them from sending their own proposal in.
there will be no need for any kind of official process, any other manufacturer can follow the process that Honda has, which is the same process that has been available for more years than I know for every manufacturer. And, if the members don't want it, it shouldn't be allowed in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Clayton
Why do we need any process other than what we already have?
Obviously, but thanks for explaining that in case there was someone who didn't know that I can't tell the future.Quote:
This is rank speculation on your part, Wren, not incontrovertible fact.
I hear all of those classes except for FA bitch, plus touring classes.Quote:
Again, you are speculating. Multi-engine classes abound in the Club devoid of equalization bickering...FA, SM, pretty much all Prod classes, to name some.
Please stop with this red herring of alternative engines or write your own proposal and don't hijack all of Honda's hard work.
Here is the dyno graph for the Fit vs. Kent.
A couple of notes about the graph. First, there are 16 small vertical divisions on the graph between each 5 hp. That is, each of those vertical divisions represents 5/16 hp. Second, there are two blue lines (for the Kent) and two red lines (for the Fit) for both hp and torque. The lower line of each pair represents the power under acceleration against the water brake and the upper line of each pair represents the power under deceleration (this is the standard way the Quicksilver does their dyno runs). To compare the Kent and Fit, look at the difference between the two lower lines or between the two upper lines.
Dave
Actually it's a mystery to me why Honda is doing this. Formula Ford hasn't been a stepping stone for young drivers for decades. Shifter karts to ProMazda is the route, SCCA is irrelevant. No one is interested in an old-fashioned tube frame race car with no wings. I know FF is the best young driver training ground, but you can't convince anyone of that today.
Cost will not be reduced, new rules never reduce cost, they only increase it.
But as long as Honda is willing to put a few bucks into it, what the heck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stohr
Why are they doing it? My guess is to compete with Mazda.
Mazda has Skip Barber, Spec Miata, MX-5 Cup Star Mazda and Pro Atlantics. Overall a Great ladder system in place and that has produced a huge grassroots group of Mazda fans.
I don't know about anyone else but I'd sure like to see how well a Fit motor worked in one of the Stohr FF cars.
not to be adversarial, but having talked to sandy at some length about performance and longevity parameters of the motor, i cannot see how anyone can say there is no reduction in cost. a conversion will cost $10,000 and will have the same longevity as a zetec. there was 6 years on my zetec, and i could have gotten another year from it. i spent $6500 2 weeks ago to rebuild a FF motor. while this is a bit more than usual. under the best circumstance i can expect to get 2 seasons from the bottom end. freshening the head every year isn't free. the honda motor will last 5 years so thats $2000 a year initial cost for first 5 years and much less for every year after as the swap will be about $2500. i defy anyone to show me a competitve driver who spends less than $2000 a year on his ford motor. just how i see the math...ric
.....and that's not mentioning essentially removing the motor from normal weekend snafu equation
Send me the money and I will put one in the back of my Stohr. Oh I will also need a lap top for chasing the little electrical gremlins that will live in the ECU and a FI manual. How do we ensure everyone gets the same ECU?Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleyjb
Which also eliminates the need for competitors to have multiple engines in the trailer.Quote:
Originally Posted by ric baribeault
I vote for "Formula Four," since that's what all my friends think I'm saying anyway. And it still abbreviates FF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim FF19
Honestly, I don't care what we call it. I just want one.
If I tell people it's "Formula Fit" people will take one look at me and laugh.
See my post in Honda Pictures
The 09 Fit motor is only $2500 if it is from HPD w/ the purchase price subsidized by American Honda. Thus the rational for the motor being sealed by HPD to control cost and maintain performance equality. Unsealed motors = pro built engines and Spec Miata engine costs of $7500-10k looking for every last HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by ric baribeault
This would also negate the use of homebuilt and salvage yard motors further balancing the field.
nevermind
Peter:Quote:
Originally Posted by PCalhoun
Are you sure the $2500 price is being subsidized? The HPD people were pretty clear that there were not in this to lose money, but also were not looking to make it a cash cow. Your price quotes of $3600 dealer cost is not what it costs Honda Motor Company to produce the engine. Surely Honda MoCo has its markup to its dealers which very well could put it at the $2500 'cost' that they have specified all week. Their whole 'grassroots racing' program is about getting access to the parts not via the dealer network for specialized use. It could very well be that the $2500 figure is the cost + sales admin overhead that Honda will incur to support grassroots racing. It sounds to me the distribution network is direct without intermediary markup. The benefit to HoMoCo is not by selling more race parts, but by building brand loyalty when buying your commuter so break even still has an upside to them.
I think the real issue as you say is that of sealed versus not sealed. Sandy is reportedly saying that blueprinting won't buy you anything; but apparently it is buying drivers things in spec miata which itself is a modern manufacturing tolerances engine. I think the devil is going to be in the details. If every part that must be used is HPD in unmodified form, then sealing is prolly not necessary. But if particular parts are 'free to change' for example a better oil pan, scraper, etc then the escalation will commence and we as drivers will be on a constant keep up program. The devil will be in the details, which have not yet been released. When that happens we'll have more info to determine if this is a good thing (TM) or a pandora's box. Until then we really don't know, or Sandy knows and we trust that he's interpreted the details the way SCCA will.
Tim-Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
Agreed. I'm using "subsidized" in the sense that they are selling at less than normal mark-ups as compared to when sold to their dealers. This model is no different than what Toyota or Mazda have done for years. Where dealers theoretically could purchase parts for less thru motorpsorts than the normal parts distribution network.
Toyota had to put out a watchful eye a number of years ago when "racing" dealers were ordering an abnormal amount of parts to try and beat the good intentions of the program.
The 40th regenerated my enthusiasm for FF and racing in general. While my size 13 feet won't fit in a DB1, I'm silly enough to fit a Fit to an old CF and have some fun!
Honda is trying to emulate the Mazda grassroots program and I see their interest in open wheel as a lifeline back to FF and open wheel racing meaning something in the US again. One step at at time guys!
My last engine cost $5800, and that was a cast iron head, 109 hp unit.
We are long overdue for a new engine package. $12k is not out of line for the complete conversion, given the cost of Kent's today.
Plus, add in trickle down of good Kent bits and guys like me can suddenly play at a higher level before moving to the Fit engine. Everyone wins.
Plus, when was the last time the winner of an FF race won contingency from the engine manufacturer?
I added to my letter that there should be contingency monies for Regional and National winners. Not big $$ but something is better than nothing.
Love live FF!
How tall is this engine compared to a Kent. In the DB-1 pictures it looks like the air filter is just below the air intake hole in the body. Is this low enough for other cars (not DB-1)? Do other modern cars now have intakes above the driver's head?
In either case, I say go for it.
Paul
now that the FF 40th anniversary event is over and the participants have had an opportunity to return home, it's time to contribute to the latest insanity making the rounds in the community. my letter has been sent to the BOD requesting the FF engine changes floated in the August Fastrack be REJECTED, NOT tabled, and NOT studied.
with 200+ FF's at the 40th anniverserary celebration at Road America (it was a long tow for many of the competitors), the Club's time would be better spent understanding the attendence. for a class that is supposedly dead or on its death bed bed in the eyes of some in the community and at the Club, where did all the competitive cars and drivers come from?? and more importantly, where are they competing and why are they not competing in SCCA National races??
it's my view the engine proposal would kill FF as we've known it for 40 years and turn it into an open wheel version of the year round whining and SIR battles that is tin-top racing in the SCCA today. if the unsolicited (???) proposal is approved, every Tom, Dick, & Harry is certain to want one of their engines approved and the Club will have NO choice but to approve them too; can you say Formula Renault?? the Club has NO documented requirement for a new engine in FF, NO studies have been commisioned that are worthy of reporting to the membership for consideration, there is NO tactical plan for open wheel classes worthy of reporting to the membership for consideration, there is NO strategic plan for open wheel classes worthy of reporting to the membership for consideration (unless the rewrite of the engine rules for "clarity" meets your standards and expectations for a plan for FF), and NO rationale is provided by the CRB for fast tracking a proposal to kill FF when their considered "solution" for FV was to create yet another open wheel class, FST (FV: the Club's other long time extremely successful open wheel class based on a single engine, rules stability, and free market access to required parts).
FS is available to all wantabe's; this group too! historically there's been no shortage of "grass roots volunteers" to write rules for a new class to be green lighted where there was the real or imagined perception of merit. if the unsolicited (???) proposal has merits in the marketplace they might even qualify for participation at the RunOffs in two or three years. FF doesn't need SIR's or year round whining or six new sealed engines full of sole source parts for competition assembled and sealed by a chosen few engine builders!! FF is alive and well as evidenced by the number of cars/drivers at the 40th anniverserary celebration at Road America.
at the end of the day the Club has an unsolicited (???) proposal from an organization new to FF for a sole source product the Club has NO written requirement for AND is NOT addressed by any tactical or strategic plan for FF worthy of submittal to the membership for consideration. impulse buyers almost never get what they thought they were buying and seldom at competitive pricing.
given it's a sole source MARKETING proposal, how many independent assessment(s) of the unsolicited (???) proposal's merits has the Club obtained? (where can a member review the reports/recommendations?)
how many directed sole source parts are required for compliance with the GCR changes as proposed?
how many of the directed sole source parts does the SCCA retain design authority for?
how many of the directed sole source parts are "remove & replace" versus having a sole approved source of repair/calibration?
what is the nature of the Club's CONTRACT with the organization that submitted the unsolicited (???) proposal for the availability AND pricing for the directed sole source parts? ie: can everyone buy parts at the same price with the same opportunity and with the same terms and conditions?? (ie: think Zetec).
how is compliance with the GCR verified? or is the plan to turn FF into another "sealed engine" class with a chosen few engine suppliers?
send the organization that submitted the unsolicited(???) proposal a polite NO THANK YOU or send them a thank you we MAY (NO legal commitment) get back to you after we've had an opportunity to review the merits of your proposal in light of emerging and as yet undocumented potential requirements we might have...................
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
Marshall Pruett, SpeedTV.com road racing contributor, has chimed in on the HPD proposal in this week's column:
Quote:
Will Honda’s Formula Ford Engine Fit?
Great to see Honda unveil a grassroots parts and support program last week. The only oddity that stood out was their proposed Formula Ford ‘Kent’ engine replacement they’ve put in front of the SCCA Club Racing division for consideration.
At $12,000 for a dry-sumped Honda Fit engine (complete with ECU and mounting pieces) it’s a tad pricey for anyone looking to retrofit a Swift DB1 (the car used by Honda as their demo).
http://assets.speedtv.com/images/art...img_large7.jpg
The Honda Fit engine does fit in the back of a Formula Ford, but will the price tag fit anyone's wallet at the Club racing level? (HPD) » More Photos
With the iconic DB1 having first made its mark back in 1984 and now trading for $15,000 on the used racing car market, I’m somewhat curious how and why anyone believes the FF class has the interest (or cash) to buy engines that cost nearly as much as a complete car.
Move to an older (and equally iconic) Crossle 32 or 35 and you’ll spend somewhere between $8000 and $12,000…less than or equal to the new engine Honda’s proposing. FF owners could try to sell their Kents to offset costs, but the market isn’t exactly overflowing with used FF motors these days.
FF was once theplace for open-wheel talent to cut their teeth, but those days are long gone. Everything from F2000 to FBMW have taken its place, and while I applaud Honda’s efforts to offer an alternative for the aging 1600cc Kent engine FF was created with (my father and I took a Kent engine out of an old Ford Capri to build our crap-can Tiga FF), I fear the price point is too high in this economy.
The problem they’re trying to solve is one Ford recognized in the ‘90’s – the Kent is too old and parts are too hard to find to keep them going. Ford offered the Zetec engine for FF and F2000 and those mills have become staples in Europe and in our own F2000 series.
But FF in North America never recovered from the influx of new training series in the early ‘90’s and the class has become an afterthought. Making the Fit engine available could be the lifeline the class needs, but if we’re going to seriously encourage ditching Kents for Fits, how about establishing a 2-3 year payment plan? Would that not be a better fit for the average Club racer?
Honda’s intentions are good, but unless the engines are cheaper or buying them can be stretched over a few years, I’m afraid their plan might not take root and grow.
The opinions reflected herein are solely those of the above commentator and are not necessarily those of SPEEDtv.com, SPEED, FOX, or NewsCorp.
Marshall Pruett is Auto Racing Editor for SPEEDtv.com. Pruett grew up at "Pruett's Olde English Garage," his father's shelter for abused foreign cars, and spent his childhood being dragged across the West Coast to help with his dad's amateur racing exploits.
Pruett spent twenty years working in the IRL, CART, IMSA, and most of the known open-wheel feeder series before retiring from active duty in 2001. And in case you were wondering, no, he isn’t related to Scott Pruett.
Marshall lives in Northern California with his wife Shabral.
This is the 4th written article where the writer has completely failed to recognize that the $12,000 price tag is NOT for the engine—it is the total price of the conversion kit for the DB1, the engine and the motorports engine parts required to make the engine a race engine. It is NOT a $12,000 engine in a $12,000 car!
Crypes! Reading is a skill!
And they should investigate the average engine and maintenance costs already being spent by Formula Ford guys around the country.
Geebus, the sky must be falling and no one told me. :rolleyes:
The moon set very early last night, making it hard for me to see all the flat black helicopters hovering over my home, beaming in exotic hypnotic rays into my brain to force me to follow the herd.
A few things I do know.
1. To say FF racing is healthy based on the turnout of the FF 40th is a big leap. You aren't going to see even 30 FFs at any SCCA non-Runoffs event 3 weeks from now.
Last Thursday Joe and I did annual techs on over 50 cars. Many of those cars logbooks had their most previous last entries in the 1980s. I saw at least 50 cars had had gone through frame-up restorations to be ready for this one very special event. Most of those cars will go back to Canada, vintage race organizations, small US race groups, or garages.
Many of the cars were being driven by drivers that didn't own the cars, but were willing to pay to play at this special event. they will return to their FCs, FBs, FMs, FAs, etc, the next time they race.
2. The vast majority of active SCCA racers, and engine builders that did attend the FF 40th stated wholehearted support for this Honda initiative.
3. The vintage guys (pre-70s cars, 70s cars, historically correct cars, etc.) could care less. They know it doesn't effect their cars.
4. My own opinion: If Hundyai, Toyota, Kia, VW, Suzuki, etc. etc., all wanted to get involved, it would be a wonderous time. If there were 7 or 8 different engines, then there would be at least 7 or 8 FFs at every National... better than today's averages. I remember the hey day of Trans-Am when AMC, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Plymouth were duking it out on road courses across the country. (I doubt you'll see a lot of makers ante up... unless we invent a "green" class for electric, hybrids, whatever... where there would be some marketing potential.) So i think worrying about other makers is wasted worry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Smith
blah blah blah
It was the "F"ing 40th at an epic track, what the hell did you expect. Apples and oranges compared to your everyday regional or even national race. I agree with PF people were pulling cars out of the barn for this one.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35204 Read the first sentence.
Good God. I have been out of the game for 4 years and can see Ford has done nothing for the class and now, out of nowhere Honda is stepping up to try and give CPR.
I believe you'll find that many of the participants at the 40th were racers who race in other classes and/or are owners of multiple cars. The 40th gave cause for these folks to decide to race FF that weekend instead of something else. It gave reason for those owners hanging on to their FF for sentimental reasons, cause to dust it off and fire it up so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Smith
I'd guess that many of the folks that don't fit the above description were there racing their FF at this event instead of racing it at another. Pretty safe assumption that FF attendance at other events that weekend were down.
I'd suggest that you'd find many of these cars racing more often IF they felt they would receive adequate pleasure in doing so for the effort required. ROI if you will. I forsee the Honda situation helping that equation for many people.
Having said that, I understand the strong opposition to this proposal from all those who have something to lose. Those who have invested lots of time and money in developing their current Kent(s) and acquiring bits to keep it going for quite some time. One of the reasons I wrote what I did 10 pages ago:
"Are the major FF motor builders behind this? How many of them make most of their revenue rebuilding/servicing and selling motors other than the Kent?"
it's my sense the discussion/debate of engine rules and other rules would procede far more graciously with with more facts & data and less self serving fluff.
where is the value in reporting an unnamed competitor purchased a National engine from an unnamed National engine builder for $X,XXX ??
without a competitor's name there's no one to contact privately about what was requested.
without an invoice the reader has NO idea what was purchased and for how much.
without a dyno sheet with test conditions there is no basis on which to judge the value of the purchase.
where is the value in a post from a member with a "nom de plume" that reports an unnamed competitor purchased a RunOffs engine from an unnamed National engine
builder for $X,XXX and now it's going soft??
without a competitor's name there's no one to contact privately about what was requested.
without an invoice the reader has NO idea what was purchased and for how much.
without a dyno sheet with test conditions there is no basis on which to judge the value of the purchase.
NO definiton is provided for "soft" and NO insight is provided into how much the engine has been used and how it has been cared for.
just like all engine builders are not created equal, all parts lists are not created equal;
there are reasons some engines make more power than others!! aluminum head, when ported, by whom, whose intake manifold & Weber, pistons, ring pack, rods, crank, flywheel & 5 1/2" clutch, oil pump, water pump, fuel pump, exhaust, ..........
I have explicitly communicated to my engine builder on multipal occasions my interest in ANYTHING that makes power for a minimum of four hours that doesn't require machining; a set of gaskets and some owner labor is potentially very inexpensive horsepower! what were the engine builders in the two reports above told by the competitors involved??
I struggle feeling sorry for competitors who run their flywheel into the track and then whine about the fragile crank/block in 1600 Kents.
I struggle feeling sorry for competitors that take their crankshaft to the local Chevy speed shop to beprepared and then whine when it grenades their 1600 Kent.
I struggle feeling sorry for competitors who miss shifts without a rev limmiter or who persist in operating their FF engines at or above 7000rpm and then whine about the service life/cost of 1600 Kents.
I struggle feeling sorry for competitors who have never changed the jetting in their Weber adjusted the ignition timing, or adjusted their valve lash and whine about the service cost of 1600 Kents.
I struggle feeling sorry for competitors who do hot have replaceable stainless steel filters in both their fuel and oil supply lines and whine about service life/cost of 1600 Kents.
I struggle feeling sorry for competitors who dry start their engines with cold oil, operate their engines with less than 20psi of oil pressure hot, operate their engines with water temperature above 180F, and whine about the service interval of 1600 Kents.
1600 Kents from one of the reputeable National engine builders are REAL racing engines and need to be treated accordingly. they need constant and endless TLC AND appreciate the very best synthetic racing oil, quality fuel, and cool cooling water!
in more than thiry years around 1600 Kents I've never seen one fail a crank sensor, a mass flow senosr, a high pressure fuel pump, or an ECU...................
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
I struggle feeling sorry for anyone who enjoys doing all that crap to go race...
There is a lot of this thread that duplicates the FV issues. Parts are getting harder to find, more expensive and "new" engines and rebuilds are out of sight. (At least for the typical FV budget.) There is no "savior" to step in with a new engine package for FV. (At least one that maps relatively close to the existing FV 1200.)
The FST package is a close as it comes but it would require about a $6000 upgrade conversion. This upgrade was pretty unacceptable to most of the FV guys. (and generated very ugly threads in oposition. So a handfull of us wrote our own rules and started racing in a new class. (FST - Regional). At this point after 4 or 5 years, we have a package that is far cheaper to run, more reliable with readily available parts and most all available over the counter at any VW parts seller. We had to take this approach due to the naysayers and inabilty to make the FST and FV close in competition.
You (FF people) now have a package that does this and still keeps the class intact. You will be able to buy parts a couple miles from the track at the closest NAPA/CARQUEST, etc. dealer at cheaper prices. The $12000 initial out of pocket when pro-rated is a nit in under 3 years, assuming you race actively. If you don't, stay with the Kent.
We are engine builders (not many FF's) and retailers so we might have a different view, but this really seems like a no brainer. The guys who don't want to change don't have to and their engine prices will likely drop a bit. (and they arguably have a bit more HP).
The guys that do change will obviously see a lower long term expense and better reliabilty.
Where is the downside? You will have enough lead time to work out the budget if the upgrade is the route you take,
RE: a couple unknowledgable posts:
There will not be any differerce in Fit performance via ECU's. The map(s) (firmware) is what controls the timing, fuel, etc. thus HP. Could someone alter the maps? Of course. And it's real easy to catch. If you were to cheat, that would be the last way to do it.
Can they cheat internally in the engine? Of course. Welcome to racing. You can cheat in any venue.
Re: Reliabilty of components. I highly doubt this will be an issue. There will likely be some growing pains as more miles are put on the engine, but they will be minor.
Re: Complexity of the ECU and other electronics. This engine is not the rocket science of todays technology. Engine diagnosis will be as easy as the Kent when you learn the package. THe ECU contains, all of the same service features that the typical current OBD car has. You may even have a check lamp. You can read codes with a $29 reader and for a few bucks more you can scan sensors, etc. (and if you do need a sensor etc., it's right down the street.) (BTW, the ECU has some data logging built in to it if you want to access it.)
We spend the vast majority of our time here working with FI ECU'd performance engines.
The ease of tuning and diagnosing is multiple times easier, once you understand the logic. And frankly the logic is much simpler than a carb'ed mechanical engine.
This is a good deal dollar wise, competition wise and even a great time to learn a bit about modern engines.
And as far as I can determine there is no downside to either Fit or Kent chooser.
In between the lines, all I can see is " The Kent was good enough for my grandfather so it's good enough for all of you". :D
P.S. I don't expect the Fit or any other engine to build FF fields without promotion of the class. That is the last thing the SCCA does well. MAYBE Honda will help in that regard.
[quote=Purple Frog;221539]
2. The vast majority of active SCCA racers, and engine builders that did attend the FF 40th stated wholehearted support for this Honda initiative.[quote]
I wholeheartedly disagree.
There were many many FF ACTIVE racers that don't agree.
There were many that said, 'lets celebrate the history of FF, enjoy each other and the racing while here, and we'll politic and lobby later.' It was NOT the time or place.
I would also think the engine builders would want to speak for themselves.
There are some huge issues from the proposal premises to begin with:
Direct from the Honda proposal:
This proposal is a "turn key" engine solution with all parts (intake through to exhaust) being a mandated single source kit sold exclusively through Honda Performance
Development.
Do I need to remind us that this is NOT a spec class. We already have a great FE class if you want a spec formula engine.
also from the Honda proposal:
Goal of the project: Add as an option the (L15A7) Honda Fit production-based engine to the Formula Ford rules as a stock themed power plant that will resolve the class parts supply issues from the current.
THERE IS NOT A CLASS PARTS SUPPLY ISSUE
-they are offering a solution to a problem that does not exist.
-their premise is WRONG, there isn't a problem w/ FF that needs to be solved
AND ANOTHER THING,
IF>>>> this was ever to be looked at seriously,
Where is the 3 year deal that Zetec had to phase in, while having lower performance,
as to not upset the class, and FORCE everybody to change with higher performance,
of course now that they're past 3 years, that has been done, all but obsoleting the Pinto.
What are all the current owners VESTED, and INVESTED in FF going to do when the unrequested engine mapping change that happens, and the suddenly legal larger SIR appears, and 3 years from now all the kents are not competitive. Ask the FC pinto guys if they wanted the last round of changes. (or had any input, or any real testing was done).
I suggest you DO look a gift horse in the mouth.
Question everything:
If it is too good to be true, it probably is.
To be clear, I have no problem with them running Formula cars. But there is a clear path for cars to be converted and run in SCCA.
Sell away on the kits, and run the conversion cars in SCCA.
There is already a class perfectly allowing that: FS
If they want a National class and status, let them, just convert enough cars, be in the top 24 in national participation, and you can have a Runoffs race. Same criteria all the other cars and classes must meet. If it's such a great idea, and will be THE formula class, then that shouldn't be hard to accomplish. No need for Honda to be involved in FF, they have a clear path to run formula cars already within the club.
Formula Ford is argueably THE most precious class in the club.
We need to be very cautious, and have a clear plan for the class. Not just react to others ideas, and their outside interests.
As some other smart people have said....
"rules stabilization is a key to the overall health of the class"
Well, they are neat several decade old engines, but I am not quit sure I would refer to them as "REAL racing engines."Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Smith
As any racing engine should. But the FIT will be far more forgiving.Quote:
and need to be treated accordingly. they need constant and endless TLC AND appreciate the very best synthetic racing oil, quality fuel, and cool cooling water!
Scare mongering...:D Obvisouly since Kents don't have any of those things. But those things give you a precise a/f ratios, timing, and keep engines cooler and alive much longer. And failures are not all that common. And easier to fix and/or replace.Quote:
in more than thiry years around 1600 Kents I've never seen one fail a crank sensor, a mass flow senosr, a high pressure fuel pump, or an ECU...................
In regards to ECU's they are quite robust. I have seen several replaced over the years (by box swappers who knew little) and the majority had nothing wrong with them.
HP Fuel pumps last as long or longer than LP fuel pumps. A crank trigger can fail just like a distributor. And when any of the above fails solid (or intermittently) the logged data is almost always enough to dagnose it very quickly. The ECU logs FP, trigger counts, engine misfires, and more.
Most of the ECU cars we maintain for racing (Spec Miata's, LS-1, LS-7's etc.) seldom fail in these areas and when they do they are just as easy to diagnose and repair in most cases.
An ECU/FI car does everything better. It keeps the oil in far better shape for longer periods of time. The cylinder walls seldom score. The plugs last longer, the heads/valves stay cleaner much longer. This is all due to precise control over the a/f ratios and timing etc. There is no comparison. I am guessing you will probably even get better fuel economy. :)
There is a real downside to converted cars running in FS or FH (Formula Honda, which is my "off the cuff" name for a new class that is FF in all but engine definition). Once converted, those cars will be gone from the FF car count forever.
Another thing to consider is that Pandora's box is really open this time. Honda appears pretty far down the road to being able to deliver actual engines and kits. So this isn't a purely theoretical discussion. There *will* be Honda engined open wheel cars out there.
The only real question is...are they used to build up Formula Ford, or used as the basis or an all-new entry class of open wheel cars for SCCA?
Steve
...on the FIT idea. I've read every post on the subject. What a great forum.
Seems to me that the Kent would live on, as would the builders, in vintage. To be silly about it, I don't see me transplanting a FIT into my DL2A (Hawke - not that its anywhere near ready) and attempting to go vintage racing - not gonna happen for the obvious reasons.
I also don't see many of the cars being able to swap a FIT in without carving up the rear deck/rear-facing frame tubes, etc. Also, the guy who runs 2-3 races per year is not likely to step up and convert simply due to cost up front. For the guys trying to win even at the regional level, they won't convert either as long as the HP difference favours the Kent. So it really appeals to the guys in the middle of these bookends, ie guys that balance doing as many races as possible with a relatively tight budget. They are the ones that will look for ways to get more seat time, more fun time, and less repair time, and that group I suspect may well represent the majority of FF owners. If I am correct, then the FIT conversion should result in more newcomers to our sport - I can't see this as a bad thing.
BTW, I am one of the guys who was at the 40th (with a rental, as my car was not yet ready, sigh). I had a very very rough time, and did not start the feature - victimized by unusually bad luck. Without the 40th, I would have skipped my license renewal this year, and just worked on getting my car out next year. So let's not even go to the leap that this past weekend was anything but a one-off festival re participation for a lot of guys like me. I had a great time nonetheless.
Bring it on Honda. But don't bait and switch us. Committ to a pricing level on all the various packages for as long as the engine stays in production plus say 5 years. And committ to keeping the hp/torque curve standard (ie no power upgrades over time) so we don't destroy the Kent for the guys who need/want it/make a living off of it.
Cheers folks, and keep the constructive dialogue going.
Bill Tebbutt
What will all the Kent owners do when the LS-7 engine is allowed? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by mblanc
I was not aware that re-mapping was on the table? Or any other engine for that matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
Wow, I must not have been talking to the right people, or maybe I was at the wrong event, because I talked to more than a few Formula Ford racers all weekend, and I found only one person that wasn't totally convinced about the whole L15A7 engine idea (and he had just built a new Kent engine). And none of them crooned over the emotional history of Formula Ford being besmirched by a furrin' car company putting a new engine proposal together. Not one. Zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by mblanc
Please be careful what you wish for. Unintended consequences and such...Quote:
Originally Posted by mblanc
Your suggested path could make it quite possible for Formula Fit to become a national class, get an opportunity at the RunOffs while the kent powered FF's would no longer have the numbers. After all the kicking and screaming by the Kent powered FF' owners they'd get the two combined into one class, but this time with the FIT being the majority and with HPD's involvement, surely the Kent would be required to enter the class as a known underdog.
Not sure it is such a good idea.
I keep hearing this mantra being chanted as if it is the gospel, so let me show you what 25 years of blind "rules stability" leads to...Quote:
Originally Posted by mblanc