As noted elsewhere in this thread, "club racing" is no longer synonymous with SCCA. The proliferation of alternatives has thinned the car counts for each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
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As noted elsewhere in this thread, "club racing" is no longer synonymous with SCCA. The proliferation of alternatives has thinned the car counts for each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
"Analytics" is the new buzzword in sports.
Lets pretend there is a master analytic study being done in Topeka. The analysis would point out that a lot of old folks aren't racing because it requires more than a 1975 budget to do so. Those oldsters are complaining about seatbelt expiration dates, transponders, fire bottles, tire costs, etc., etc. Meanwhile folks that drive Miatas don't seem to be bothered by those issues and keep showing up in larger numbers.
Analytics would steer Topeka to market to their growing market. Just saying.
For 20 years I kept a running spreadsheet of all my costs of racing. I was the self-proclaimed "King o' Cheap". I was racing cars I purchased for about $10K, doing all my own wrenching, sleeping in the paddock, running tires to the cords almost. All that calculated 10 years ago it worked out to about $2,000 per weekend. That was at 10 year ago prices, I'm sure it has climbed since then. e.g. 2014 $4 dollar VP110 is now costing me $14.75.
So, at some point I just said the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. It grew beyond my budget. All that said you won't hear me complaining about the current costs. There are valid reasons why things cost as they do. If some of the costs folks are complaining about on this forum are taken out of the yearly calculation it really doesn't effect the average weekend cost all that much if you are doing 4 to 5 weekends per year.
I'm just thankful this day before Thanksgiving that I got to do it for as long as I did.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
That it costs more than 1975, that everything else does, too, make it all the clearer that *any possible way* to race for less will improve car counts.
You are indeed lucky to have raced when you could, but that also means those who haven’t have a polar opposite take on everything expenses-related. It’s not a matter of being cheap, or incessantly whining while combing a white beard, it’s about listening to *everyone* and being on a similar page in how to move forward.
Yes, seems we all agree there are too many classes. But there’s also a ton of dormant cars begging their owners to run.
I talk to lots of vintage racers yearning for real competition again, since it’s pretty apparent that vintage isn’t about rabid racing here as it is in England.
They consistently report they left SCCA strictly because of politics, their car or engine being fazed out without respectful warning to respond to, and for expenses doing nothing for them but gaining a few tenths for a few thousand dollars and demanded if wanting to win.
Steve Lathrop’s idea is *very interesting*. His Zink Z10 with a 600cc bike engine is curious in many regards, why couldn’t an older FF chassis be run with stickier tires or more intake or whatever to find parity? Wouldn’t a massive Formula Ford or Vee grid at the June Sprints again be worth it regardless of class merge?
What do the 22 F600 guys at this year’s Runoffs do now? A little intake restriction or a stock and blueprinted engine and they could pay entry fees with FF and make for grids of the past.
But what I mostly hear is that one doesn’t wanna play with their neighbors and dwindling comrades.
I think what’s often forgotten in the Formula and Sports Racing categories is a willingness to blend in as many different cars as possible, Example: Kent Prather raced the same MGA in GP for probably 40 years, and went to vintage when G Prod died out. It happens, but begs the question of alternative.
Imagine how awesome and affordable that was, and the paid entry fees over probably 200+ races helping the Club all along… Does the Club not need money?
I also think we also forget there’s probably more people with high liquid income more than ever. They can afford it all, but they’re clearly not exposed. The average income guy certainly teeters on the wrong side of the edge these days more than ever maybe, add having to plunk down several Grand a year to pass Tech at a race or two and at some point it becomes stupid money. Gone racer, not coming back, and not for a second being too cheap to do it.
More money and more population today *should* equal more (cars), like in so many other sports — but only if they know about it.
That’s a huge part of this problem, for example how many of those 30,000 spectators at Road Atlanta in the ‘70s to ‘90s went on to race ONLY because of being inspired LIVE and IN LIVING COLOR?
When I talk to karters with family budget about “moving up,” they mention a lot of goals but barely know what SCCA even is. That’s bewildering if not shameful for a Club turning 100 in a couple decades.
The fact that SCCA is willing to kick aside its 8th most populated class speaks volumes.
Glenn
I'm not sure being restricted from 4 or 5 Super Tour events out of the mass of races on the yearly schedule is exactly being "kicked aside".
But, I can appreciate the FV guys that usually run the Sebring Super Tour are upset. The FC folks should have seen this coming since 2006. For a few years I entered an old Reynard with a homebuilt motor in Major events just to help the FC numbers. Once or twice I didn't get lapped. LOL
While it *might* be only "4 or 5 Super Tour events", it is being kicked aside. The small formula cars are being kicked aside so that more miata's can be on the track.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
And what comes next year?
That's entirely in the hands of competitors. Bring the number up and there won't be a problem. That might mean having to bring them up higher than one of the Miata groups. In the mean time, I see the club responding to changes in competitor preference. We no longer have exclusive FF fields. We no longer have exclusive FV fields. We do have exclusive Miata fields. To a great extent it's a numbers game. I hate to see a classes I love disintegrating, but every class has a finite life, some longer than others (FV,) but sunset is inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
If FV is set to go away then good luck to the rest of the open wheel groups. The 8th largest majors class and the 3rd largest at the runoffs this past year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
And FV will be at the 2025 Runoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
I understand the frustration. My introduction to SCCA was crewing a FV co-owned by two car salesmen from Red Bank, NJ. When I raced I moved from production to CSR to FF and it was a wonder to compete in a run group with nothing but same class cars. That was a long time ago and competitor preferences have shifted elsewhere.
At the same time, there is pressure from competitors to shorten the Runoffs which means fewer race groups which actually returns the event to its multi-class origins.
There is a very real challenge in combining FV with any other open wheel class. Small events can pull it off because they don't run into the Brian Holtz Rule effect (the number of on track incidents is exponentially related to the number of cars on track.) At the request of the FV competitors it has become common practice to implement a gapped start, i.e., separation of classes but only a single green flag from S/F. This keeps the Vees from tangling with other cars in turn one for reasons I'm sure I don't have to explain to anyone.
Now comes the growing Miata participation. As a closed wheel car there are more options for combining them with other classes (not to mention the size of SM fields alone.) Those participants have also shown an interest in running in multiple classes at an event, an option not open to FV, F600 or FF. Add in the constant calls for SCCA to be run more like a business and when they look at the numbers and try to adjust someone's inevitably going to find themselves on the wrong side of the ledger.
I understand. It's your class. It's your investment. It hurts.
As much as I've come to understand the ability of stewards to function as Time Lords and squeeze things into an increasingly rigid schedule, we've hit the wall on that.
My personal opinion on how to deal with all this is radically different from almost anyone else's in the club: Eliminate the Runoffs and return the National Championship to Its original form of accumulated points in events with more for Super Tours, less for Majors and the least for Regionals.
That would complete Bill Kephart's observation that there are two main types of competitors in SCCA Road Racing: Those with the means and desire to seek out the best competition and those who primarily run local events. Divisions already have locally based championships that serve the latter. The Runoffs has had a good run, but like any given class in the club, it's reached a point of diminishing returns.
Going back to Brian's question about impeachment, I guess if there is such a vehicle available, it would be in the bylaws. I remember the days when you purchase of a competition license the club would send out the rule book to all of us. I think it stopped in the late 90's not sure.
If, and I did not renew my competition license this year for I think $125, that if I could navigate the scca website and look in the right place I could find if the powers that be even though about having that option for the times when the bod and comp board did things the majority of the racers didn't like. I dislike the website since in my opinion, is like most things in the club, you need to know the secrets in order to find anything.
When I complained after the fact, about the rain light rule, I keep hearing that it was my fault for not paying attention.
Really? That sounds just like most governments who basically approach rule making the same way. It should be the club's responsibility to inform everyone about what they want and NOT our responsibility to search the bs to find what they want to impose on us. In the information age this shouldn't be an issue but it follows the old saying of the secret car club.
I hope everyone is enjoying a good Thanksgiving. Ed
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
We don't always agree but I've been saying this for years. It will always fall on dead ears until it's too late and NASA or Gridlife or some other club that is willing to listen to all their members has taken the market share. The SCCA is not too big to fail and the Mazda bubble will pop one day, likely due to poor decisions by "leadership".
I am very aware that I am snipping out a small part of your post, but I think it is important to understand that there is an incorrect assumption here. Specifically, except for the Runoffs, entry fees have nothing to do with how well "The Club" fares financially. The Regions take the fiscal responsibility for every event (Regional, Divisional, HST, Majors) that they host. That means if the event fails to draw the minimum entries for the Region to at least break even (for whatever reasons), then the Region eats the deficit. Topeka (The Club) does not take a hit (nor to be fair, do they participate in any surplus). Yes, membership and license fees go to Topeka, but they are a small part of the overall budget. The Road Racing part of Topeka needs to "soak the rich" at the Runoffs or that part of the Topeka operation goes over the falls financially.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Dave
P.S. I will acknowledge that I have oversimplified some of the above, but I don't have all day or all week to get this precisely right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
I'm aware of the reasoning for some things but I'll respond with many reasons why I feel that someone should lose their job over how this was handled
First there were rumors of FV, FF and F6 not being allowed at Super Tours in 2025 before the runoffs. All of those in positions of power denied it as they didn't want to deal with it with everyone together in person.
When the decision was made public they didn't have a schedule out for the "bonus majors" or have any idea what that was going to look like. Also speaking for FV specifically 13 of 26 drivers qualified through the super tour, eliminating that makes it much more challenging for people to qualify and is one less option. Did they think any of that through? No.
Its funny how they cite participation numbers nationally with Super Tours, especially when we all know the participation numbers outside of the northeast and central are far lower. They're fine with keeping FV, FF and F6 at the west coast events to make the numbers. What they stand to lose is 20+ entries at the Watkins, Mid Ohio and Road America super tour events.
What does all this mean for the regions and why are they upset? They're losing all of those entries from the open wheel group and what are they being replaced by? Nothing. This move won't bring about added entries from SMX so they stand to lose in many cases $20,000-40,000 in entry fees from eliminating our group. For the regions that can be the difference from them making money or losing money on an event.
Oh but they'll make it up with the "bonus majors" right? No. The regions are being forced to add an additional run group over what they normally have to put this on. That means paying for an extra hour of track time at $5,000+/hour. They are going to run a separate motorsportreg sign in and will give the "bonus majors" group a longer run time. The dates are also an issue as the Watkins Glen "Bonus major" conflicts with an FRP event so lets see how few cars go to that.
Then there's the decision of making P1 and P2 into the same class. First how can you do that when one class is a flat bottom class and the other has tunnels? Why make that change when they run in the same run group? Why not just have them race together as separate classes at the Runoffs in the same race with a split start?
I can go on with all of the tin top classes that were combined against their will.
From what I was told they want to eventually replace SM with SMX at the national level and phase the older cars out. That is being pushed by Mazda who don't want to keep making parts for the old SM cars. And when Mazda is writing checks they get what they want no matter the cost.
We're talking thousands and thousands of dollars in race cars and all of the time and effort that are being thrown aside. For what? A class that's existed for 2 years that most of the drivers are kids that just arrive and drive. What happened to the club being about grass roots racers that work on, build and modify their own cars?
Nationally the regions aren't happy with Topika as well as countless competitors that have had their investment threatened. I want to know who is responsible and start looking into how we remove them from their position. Also to start tracking when those currently on the BOD are up for reelection and work to get them out. Ive been around the club almost 30 years now and I can't remember a time where such big unpopular moves were made .
FV, FF and F6 put on the best shows at the runoffs, we want that to continue not to go away.
-Brian
Major decisions like the HST & majors class eligibility revisions, FIA rain light, and Flagtronics should be (have been) HEADLINED in Kerry Speed's weekly email to all members. IIRC, I don't think they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
As long as it has existed the SCCA web site has never been easy or logically laid out to navigate. I still fumble around trying to find stuff even though I've bookmarked a lot of places I often visit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
Reminds me of the arguments we used to have with an ad agency Art Director about the newspaper ads he wanted to clutter up with lots of cute graphics that would obscure the actual text messaging. I'm convinced the SCCA website is being held hostage to the whims of some graphic designer who has no idea what the actual club does or how the national office serves the membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
1) There are no Regions upset. If they were they would simply not signup for the HST event. The Regions are in control.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
2) Bonus races: There will not be any additional run groups. The Bonus race runs within the normal regional grouping which will include regional only classes.
Brian
Brian,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Have you actually spoken to anyone?
Did you not actually read what was put about the Financials and processes?
This information is directly from region leaders.
If you have actual factual information then feel free to share your sources. Otherwise your thoughts and feelings aren't fact.
-Brian
Correct me if I'm wrong...........RunOffs is like any other Event in that there are a couple of days of Practice for the various Classes......then a couple of days of Qualy for the various Classes,,,,,and then a few days of Racing. The implication being necessity to spend many days there.
How about overlapping (no pun intended) Classes and the schedule. Example: some Classes need not be there the first few days because other Classes are having a Practice / Qualy the first day or two.....while others yet are only Practice on the 2nd or 3rd days.....followed by those of the first day Racing on day 2 or 3 - and then going home..... with the final Classes showing up for a Practice / Qualy day........and that 2nd group Racing on the day that last group Qualys - and then going home......and the last Classes Racing on the last day.
The attempt is to have every Class only being there 2 or 3 days.....and saving people some money by not stretching things out for days on end.
Please keep some things in mind. You can have a class in the top ten and yet not be compatible with other classes. The ones in the teens can be grouped with other cars in a single race group.
There are other groups in the wings who could jump over existing groups. The Radicals come to mind, and also the new Club Spec classes. There is always the chance that another manufacture can jump in with either a spec series, either pure race or street modified.
Don’t assume the existing groups are static.
ChrisZ
No.... Where is Reg official info posted?Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
1) More accurate to state the Regions might be happy with the changes, but they still signed up for the HST events. So
they must not think it is that bad.
2) I have not seen anything that indicates the two Bonus races per event will be exclusive to only Major competitors. That would seem to be a risky proposition for the Regions.
Brian
When I was on the CRB (which seems like ancient times now), I tried to sell something along these lines. I got nothing but eye rolls (from the polite people) and absolute disdain from others. Everyone had a "good" reason for not wanting to go that direction Oh, well.Quote:
Originally Posted by EYERACE
Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by EYERACE
The club tried that at Road America in (?) 2013. It was a good-faith response to requests, but did not get traction.
I have to say, this attitude in the SCCA really pisses me off. Maybe it's more a question of those who are willing to travel 8 -10 hours one way for a race weekend, and those of us who are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
This multi-tiered elitist attitude only seems to exist in SCCA club racing. If we look at NASA racing for example, there is no such multi-tiered racing - it is all regional racing, and finishing in a certain number of regional races qualifies a driver for their national championship race.
What really differentiates SCCA from all other club racing sanctioning bodies are formula cars and open cockpit prototypes. Otherwise SCCA would just be another organization running spec Miatas and modified tin tops. The SCCA should be embracing this differentiation and promoting our "real" race cars at all events, and not threatening to eliminate any of us.
Being pissed off at a reality you then proceed to prove is odd. As to embracing the differentiation, any analysis of class/category participation shows that would be self defeating. The real participation growth is coming at the other end of the spectrum; TNIA, CRE & TT. Something does need to be done to preserve formula car racing, but so far nothing has bubbled up that doesn't threaten one or another significant entity within SCCA including my proposed thought experiment to eliminate the Runoffs. I suggested a formal debate with that as the subject to be held over Zoom. The idea is to get all the possibilities out in the open in such a way as to avoid being ignored or dismissed. It was greeted like a communicable disease.Quote:
Originally Posted by douglap1
"Something does need to be done to preserve formula car racing, but so far nothing has bubbled up that doesn't threaten one or another significant entity within SCCA"
After reading through this meandering and frustration-filled thread, I can not but chuckle wryly at this statement. Would that this attitude could have been prominent way back when I was on the SFRAC (1990ish) and every bubba and his cousin wanted to establish a new class because they wanted to race a certain car which was not recognized. Some of the newly proposed classes were pushed by the manufacturers (I.e. Mazda and al) and others "seemed" like a good idea. (Who could have predicted the Frankenstein-like growth of the Spec Miata?) Unfortunately, the poubahs at that time caved to the pressure instead of standing firm and letting those racers who wanted to drive a car not recognized go elsewhere.
The Club lost its way many years ago when it tried to be all things to all racers (with money?). The djin is out of the bottle and way down the road.
Ed, I proposed a solution a couple weeks ago that I know will get you back on track based on your post_ I'll buy you the rain light. Please PM me and I'll get it headed your way. All you need to do is run three majors next year and it's your to keep forever. If ypu run less than three, Just ship it back to me along with $50 for my troubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
This is year 8 for us in FF. This year alone we did 22 races plus six test days for $22k total. That's $800 per day. The kid won 13 of the 22, the Cen-div championship, plus the Runoffs. Point being, this was a competitive budget. We used 9 sets of tires.
Prior to the recent inflation crap, we did the same on $15K or so per year.
The point being, its a lot but it's not crazy. The only thing cheaper now than in the 1970's is TV's. I think TV is boring,
Team, a proposal that is possibly more interesting and fun than just a Runoffs champion: Should we create a couple new grass roots/Do it ourselves National Championship Cups for the following separate FF sub-categories - Kent engines, Honda Engines, DB1, Van Diemen, DB6, Pre '82, Pre '98?Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Maybe its a nationwide points duel: Each drivers best three Majors where ever they happen to be against the others (where ever they happened to race) in their Subclass. A points tie being the fourth best result. If it's still a tie after four - joint champions?
Note - originally posted in the Facebook Formula F/1600 USA group
This upcoming Thursday will be the third Zoom meeting relative to this topic. 9pm eastern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
The head of the CRB attended the first one and shared a lot of good internal SCCA information.
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us05web.zoom.us/j/82013141123?pwd=6fYy6kZCrpFsUTp9IyE2YweV8a3HBw.1
Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123
Passcode: G5G7wm
Please attend. Especially if you own a FF.
I love the effort that is being put into this for our class.Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I firmly believe that FF just needs promotion and for the local guys to pick specific events (out of the too many events) to attend as a group.
Bob is already in the middle of bringing in new chassis for FF and FC, and QS has already tuned Sigma engines to fit in both classes.
No need to re-invent the wheel. What makes this class great is old-fashioned hard racing. By creating other sub-categories, that will dilute the class even more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think this budget is attainable when you factor everything in.
When I raced 8 weekends a year, we spent an average of 4k a weekend. And this was for local races close to home.
When I did FRP, we spent upwards of 6k a weekend.
This is with us doing everything ourselves.
I don't think you factored in maintaining a top-notch car, or things like maintenance for tow-vehicles.
Here is a little breakdown (3 day weekend - track 350 miles away):
Entry fee for weekend + test day : $750
Food ($50 per day): $150
Hotel ($200 per night): $600
Race Gas : $200
Consumable/cleaners: $25
Engine & Geabox oil: $100
1/2 Set of tires: $600
1/2 set brakepads: $100
We are already at $2525 and we didn't factor in maintaining racecar, having truck/trailer depreciate, maintenance of truck/trailer.
What's cute about this $2525 estimate, is this is the bare minimum for all classes to run a 3 day weekend in the SCCA.
This is not a Formula Car issue, the cost of everything has just gone up. It has to, that's just general inflation. It hurts when income has not adjusted for inflation properly.
Factor in an additional $600 an hour for maintaining a FF to a high level, if your wrenching on it yourself.
On a 3 day weekend, there is about 3 hours of track time.
3 hours * $600 = $2400
If you have to buy a truck and trailer to do this
Estimate $1.75 a mile for a F150 with a 20' trailer.
This estimate factors in the cost of both vehicles (that will need to be replaced every 12 years) and what it cost to maintain it.
Towing: $1.75 per mile * 350miles = about $600
To race a regional 3 day weekend at SCCA really cost about 5k.
And that's with you working on your own stuff...
Paying a good team will defiantly save you a lot of time, but might actually save you money - when you think about the team calling the shots: which will reduce accidents on track and dramatically lead to less failures. (ex: not looking for signs of failure, gear breaks in gearbox, and now you need a new box.)
I get asked constantly, what does it cost to get into racing. It really does depend on the type of program you want to run. But when you start looking at everything, the real cost is more than people think. Even with a barebones program...
Jonathan, trust me its everything. I have a separate bank account and card - and every single thing gets paid out of that account. All travel, entry's, license, gloves, gears, wax, oil, grease, every part, every rain light, harness, fire extinguisher, bearing, CV, every everything. Its the deal I made with my wife and she is very diligent making sure I'm not touching any other accounts. She uses that card to stock up on track food. Together we make sure there is $25K in on January 1st, and the racing stops when its gone. We have $3K left from this season. She won't let me start with more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Lee
I did a previous post in here somewhere with all the expenses for the year. Too lazy tonight to go look for it. But I remember the three items that accounted for 80%: Tires, entry fee, brake pads.
Hi Tony,Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
That's a great system you have there! Probably how most guys should race...
I think you and me are comparing apples to oranges.
My estimate is includes purchasing all the equipment, and putting a value on it deteriorating. Knowing that one day something expensive is going to need replacement.
While you are looking at what you spent this year for 2024 for x amount of weekends.
Some years you can do a lot of racing for not much money.
Other years you could spend a lot of money and not race much. What happens if you need a engine rebuild, gearbox rebuild, and a frame up all in the same year. Then most of your budget for that year is going to be spent on maintaining the car...
I know one person who spent 60k this year on damages alone.
Shoot, just to start out racing you'll need 50k minimum for that year. Between drivers school, buying a cheap trailer, then a used racecar.
While we certainly have a good group of guys supporting the class, there is just no way around it - racing ain't cheap...
I suggested something similar in a recent post: bring your "prior generation" FFords to FRP, have lots of fun, and crown your own unofficial winners and champion. There's already a Masters subcategory, maybe if enough of you show up Bob will formalize your subgroup. :greenflag: (call it RCFF resurrected?)Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
Team, In hopes of capturing the best ideas I've been reading about here, and the work B-Spec and FC did a few years ago:
Attached is a first draft of a FF growth plan for 2025. Please comment with suggested changes and improvements. And most importantly, what else do we need to be doing? Lastly, what's the best use for this document? This is OUR document, not mine. Let's create something useful we can use to guide our efforts. Mostly, we just need to write down the best ideas so we all have something we can refer back to so we know how to help each day or week.
Like racing, the results will be a direct result of our efforts.
Attachment 113558
So there I was thinking that SCCA dropped FF from the HST's because they needed to make time to add SMX ...
Here's the Sebring schedule; look at how early the last sessions of the day run :confused::confused::confused::meatball:
Geez - Union hours?
What time does it get dark?
That is interesting. They are also leaving 15 minutes between groups for clean up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus7
They need to build in extra time when inevitably SM, SMX and SRF will cause delays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus7
Comment about the Sebring schedule thing.........this past Sunday of Turkey Trot weekend, the last grid for a 35 minute race gridded at roughly Two O'clock.......by roughly then 2:40 > the group was coming in off the cool down lap..... with a 20 minute or so Impound. Everybody back to the paddock by 3:10 or so with the chance to pack up and leave well before 5:00 PM.........with the Track people, not SCCA, kicking everybody out by 5:00.
Eastern Standard time would have sundown at Sebring about 5:20 in January
Hitting the nail on the head here. It's not an issue of too many run groups or not enough time and entirely an issue of at the larger races, like Sprints, run offs, and sadly this year even the Cat Majors there are simply too many cars on track. I don't want to point the finger at any one class or group as crashes can happen in any class/group. I will not deny that in my experience I agree that SM and SRF have the highest likelihood of causing a delay/having multiple moderate to major incidents that cause clean up, sometimes before the race even gets going like at runoffs. That said my unprompted opinion is that there needs to be more time built in between sessions to allow for the unexpected cleanups, and also some way to better limit the numbers at super tours/promote an even spread of cars across all races, ie. have a better defined ladder of qualifications from regional, to majors, to super tour.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
That is a spectacular idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by MackRb15
As a sometime racing time lord (Operating Steward,) let me say I would also appreciate more time between sessions.Quote:
Originally Posted by MackRb15
However, when creating a tower schedule (the one competitors don't generally see when the Supps show a To Be Followed By schedule) and when creating a schedule for a big event like the June Sprints with something closer to a time certain schedule, things get a bit trickier.
There is a defined time block from start of first session to completion of last session (and mid day "quiet times,") beyond which the region will be charged additionally. That is the first and most important thing that has to be considered with any schedule.
There are requirements for minimum scheduled session times for HST/Majors.
There are recommendations/limitations on which classes may be grouped together.
There is historic memory of the capabilities and limitations of track staff and responders which vary from location to location.
There is the Brian Holtz Rule - The number of on track incidents is exponentially related to the number of cars on track - which must be taken into account.
HST requires that all session start times be adhered to (can't start earlier than the published time.)
It's been my experience that days fall into thirds.
There are a minimum of incidents enabling the tower schedule to be maintained
There are fewer than anticipated incidents creating extended delays between sessions and/or finishing the day early
There are more than anticipated incidents requiring subsequent session curtailment
There have been extended clean up situations in all race groups regardless which classes are involved or how many cars are in the session.
That's the world schedule makers and operating stewards live in. We all do our best, but some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you.
I just submitted the following letter to the SCCA:
Hello, I was a bit surprised to see the Sebring 2025 Super Tour schedule. Specifically, the early end time each day and the 15 minutes between sessions. Related to that - we did our first Runoffs in about 30 years this fall and were surprised by the one-hour time slot per race group. If we cut down on the white space time between sessions, there could be a lot more live track time which could mean more sessions available.
I propose:
1. 'Followed by" schedules for the entire weekend. This is not hard for drivers or crew to live with.
2. If there are eight groups for example, Maybe its "followed by" for four, a 15 minute break/catch up or a set restart time, then "followed by" once again for the last four groups.
Green to checker option for this proposal:
To encourage green to checker driving and car preparation: During the followed by schedule if a class needs seven or ten minute of clean up for example, seven or ten minutes would be taken out of that groups next session. Interclass peer pressure and prep help would soon reduce the amount of cleanup.
I realize that maybe the Runoffs schedule was to have podium ceremony broadcast time. Relative to that:
1. For sure there are people excited to see that, namely the families and crews who are present at the ceremonies. I honestly don't think anyone else would miss the broadcasts of the ceremonies.
2. The track time is expensive to rent - we should be getting as much green track time as possible for our money.
Note: All of these ideas are based on decades of motocross, motorcycle road racing, and karting experiences in addition to SCCA racing starting in 1987.
Thank you for your consideration and efforts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I don't have the time to write this out as fully as I'd like but I want to post something because I think that it might provide some helpful food for thought.
I think I'm one of the drivers that you've identified as an opportunity for improved SCCA Majors car counts. I'm a non-SCCA driver with a CF. I mostly race it with RMVR but I've also raced with SVRA.
When I think about running with the SCCA these are the questions that come to mind.
What hoops will I have to jump through to enter?
Will I need to make any changes to my car to be legal? It's currently legal for RMVR but would need a distributor change to run with SVRA.
Will I have to make any changes to be competitive? I'm mostly thinking about tires and any related setup changes here.
What does the SCCA offer that might make me want to run some SCCA events? Keep in mind that due to time and/or budget constraints running an SCCA event likely means skipping an event with RMVR or SVRA.
While the specific answers to some of these question will drive my decision making process having to do the research to find the answers has so far kept me from even considering running with the SCCA. I can already have a full fun, racing season without the extra work. I suggest that if you're prepared to answer these questions before reaching out to driver's like me you'll be ahead of the game. Maybe a short document with links to relevant sections in the GCR?
I hope this is taken in the helpful spirit in which it's intended.
Steve M.
Hey Steve,
thanks for chiming in - all very good points. I am your close neighbor by fly over standards (4 hours away). I too occasionally run SVRA events and am looking at more in the future with our FC driver and possibly myself in a Post club ford FF with ford power. If I build the FF I will also run it in SCCA majors with the radials as SCCA is my first lover (45 year member).
Glad to visit privately about any and all thoughts you have.
Jay Messenger
Amarillo, Texas (in about 30 days).
muleshoeracer at yahoo you know what!
Steve,
I started off driving in Formula Ford approx 15 yrs ago. Been running in SCCA for about 5 yrs.. I am currently in FE2, but would be more than happy to talk with you about what steps it took to get entered in my first event with SCCA.
Homeport for me is the Phoenix, AZ area. There are quite a few Formula Ford that run around here. Below are a couple of links which contain the location and dates of SCCA Regional and Majors event in Arizona.
Feel free to shoot me a PM and swap contact info's. Also, on the links below I am sure you can find contact info for the AZ SCCA region to inquire about attending any of their events.
https://azscca.com/saguaro-series-standings/
https://mailchi.mp/e3258601693a/scca...7?e=d734240aae
December 5th Zoom meeting: A link the the video files with audio is attached. The short story is that were successful getting volunteers to be the Points of Contact for the first seven Majors of 2025. Thank you very much to them and see attached image of the list of people and the task list we agreed to.
We discussed many ideas and it was fun and fruitful. Ideas we definitely want to do are:
1. A T-shirt noting our 2025 efforts. Is anyone in the group a graphic artist?
2. Create a website that non-Facebook and Apex Speed users to find us at, and learn about FF. There are thousands of Formula Ford IRacing participants who may be able to find us through the website for example. We want to tell the exciting story of FF.
3. We want to create fliers for each race that notes where to park, where the Saturday night cocktail hour will be, etc. Graphics help would be appreciated.
4. We need to make more progress on the Registry in the next two weeks. More complete contact information in particular. More posts on that topic to come.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12jO...usp=drive_link
Note: its a two hour meeting - I hope there is a way to run the speed faster:https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=113580&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=113581&stc=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger Racing
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGOffroad
Thanks guys. If I look seriously into running with the SCCA I'll definitely reach out to you.