Which AIM dash/data systems out of production WILL work ?Quote:
Originally Posted by romoman
And can you put more than 1 device on the CAN2 bus? (Like Tire Pressures and Flagtronics)
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Which AIM dash/data systems out of production WILL work ?Quote:
Originally Posted by romoman
And can you put more than 1 device on the CAN2 bus? (Like Tire Pressures and Flagtronics)
MXL2, MXS/MXG 1.0. Any device that uses RS3 for configuration will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Yes, you can put a near limitless number of devices on a CAN network. The issue becomes the protocol writing, but that is not hard to make work. I supply the protocol for the TPMS and Flagtronics for anyone that bought a TPMS from me. If you had something like a Solo 2 DL or MXm with only 1 CAN input and the ECU was using it, I'm 99% sure I can get you a protocol that combines the ECU and FT200 protocols. It depends on the ECU, but I'm happy to help anyone that wants to do it.
I am surprised that no one has complained about a 35 mph purple speed limit. In my experience as a pinto FC driver and assistant-something in the FRP Series, I can tell you it is very hard to drive a car with a 70 mph first gear along at 35 mph. Plus many cars will overheat if held to that pace very long. We always told pace car drivers to try to maintain 55 mph. And, talking to a lot of SCCA starters they also recommend 55 as a speed to approach green flags.
Go out sometime and try to drive a whole lap at 35. Just saying.
YMMV
A low volume production solution would be expensive. I could see using a Pi or Arduino item to implement a strip light interface with CAN. It just needs to be done by someone willing to open-source it as opposed to trying to make a buck. I wish someone would have done that for older AIM systems to add GPS, but you know, companies want to sell stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
I'm not sure a remote FT200 display helps much, while thinner, it's still a lot of surface area. Make it 50% wide and 50% tall by using half-size LEDs and reducing the spacing and that might be a lot more palatable. Now THAT would be easily doable by Flagtronics. From a cost perspective, all you'd be adding is a housing for the smaller display. You could even delete the brightness buttons and the sunlight sensor and just let us set the level in the setup. That just leaves having a spot to keep the comms antenna vertical - like velcroed to the inside of a body panel.
I agree. With Trans Am at the Glen, they changed it to 65 mph. That worked very well (and I really didn't expect it to).Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
Again the purple one points out something we all have missed
So you have to set the car up and learn to drive at 35. I think that is not asking too much.
At a minimum, the emergency works are going to feel more comfortable and get the job done fast.
Brian
With the gearing I commonly use, first at idle is 32. And that the slowest first I use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Were going to be riding the clutch to stay slow enough.
I know speed is a complaint with workers and open wheel cars. I would say most going through a yellow are doing 60.
If they implement this purple speed idea were going to have to reach a middle ground.
It just struck me that at many facilities it is the track's emergency team that set the criteria for 'hot' tows. IF we want 'hot' tows then they will dictate the speed required.
Brian
Essentially correct. For example, the whole Code 35 thing at VIR came out of Emergency Services. Same at other tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
One minor correction: Even under Code 35 etc,. they do not do hot pulls anymore. More like 'lukewarm pulls'. :)
Since everyone is so peaceful in this discussion (a disappointment to the lurkers who like to watch all the fighting), I think that if the CRB is happy with 35 mph zones/laps then they should be happy allowing 5 speeds in FC cars so that the drivers will have a "safety car / purple gear" available to comply.
Someone knows how to poke a bear ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
Just curious.. what's the 'idle' speed of an FE in 1st? Pretty sure that SRF3 will be able to make it OK.
Brian have you lost your mind. The minimum turn speed in a FC at Mid Ohio is about 50-60 mph. And you say just set the car up to run 35 mph. Have you lost your mind or have you simply forgotten simple realities ore do you want everyone to sacrifice performance just so you can say that "we" implemented Flagtronics??Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
I like that idea and Flagtronics can pay for the conversions!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
The reality is the tracks are going to require 35 IF you expect them to do 'warm' pulls. This is going to be the new reality.... you compromise your setup to handle the 35's. Everyone in a given class is in the same boat, so you seek out a competitive advantage by doing a better job of adapting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
If 60-70% of the cars racing find this easy to do, then it is a done deal. Assuming the track insist on 35 or no warm tows, then not complying just means a continuation of the current PC and black flags. Track management does not really care which way you decide to go.
Brian
Gents;
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108376&stc=1
This, plus a remote transponder. There is only so much space in a formula car.
These Purple sessions will need to be extended to retrieve stalled cars.;)
That may be counter productive.
SRF3 can definitely handle running 35 in first gear, with either the old or new transmission. Can see how this would be a problem for formula cars with only 4 gears and taller gear stacks, but they could just set the target speed to 45 (40?) for the wings-and-things group instead of 35 and it'd be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
Well, Advanced Fire and Rescue still does hot pulls for VARA at Willow Springs, Buttonwillow, and the dear departed Cal Speedway, and I'm sure everywhere else they go. And they do this without a given speed limit, although you will get an ass-chewin if you blow through the recovery area faster than Craig thinks you should.
The cartek device is very similar to the shift lights I used to have on the car before I got the AIM - made by a company called Revlight, seems to be out of business now, but there are tons of those designs out there.
Speaking of Cautions breed Cautions... :ha:Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Might need to have my EE crew chief design that Raspberry Pi solution for a remote display with a couple of LED strips. He's been bored anyway, since the last thing I had him properly design for the car was the gear display, and that was in, like, 2012 or something. We do have a 3D printer on the team too... maybe open source the designs, if I can convince the designers...
I have been chatting with my dash supplier (Race Technologies) about how we could try to implement this stuff... not easy because black/white LCD display dash, and only red/green LEDs... and here I've complained for years that they don't do color dashes... not trivial to implement (though the CAN side is trivial). Mainly a matter of working out a good HMI strategy... which they don't have a great track record on (not the reason I chose that data system)...
But a separate LED strip display we can stick on the edge of the cockpit would be better, by far...
Flagtronic's response to my list of issues relative to a formula car installation:
To address your questions:
1. The standard FT200 should remain within ~10deg or vertical for a variety of reasons.
2. Any metal obstructions will be problematic for the antenna.
3. What's the goal for the GPS? To make an extension or something else? This wiring is unprotected because we control it. Opening this up more broadly can be problematic. We do have some new GPS options coming out and do plan to offer CAN integration with some GPS options from AiM & possibly others.
4. The signal from the antenna is toroidal (a donut). We don't currently offer the xyz plots for this.
5. Yes, we plan to separate the control and LED boards. The LED housing must remain capable of substantial heat sinking which is why the case is aluminum and there is a back plate / head spreader. We intend the LEDs to live for years which requires excellent thermal control.
The proposed form factor, at this point, is a 2x12 matrix instead of the original 6x12 matrix. This goes to a flying lead pigtail with different termination options. It will still need a head spreader and aluminum case for the aforementioned reasons. The reduced matrix can still show most flags reasonably well, reduces the power requirements, and reduces the thermal requirements. CAN based control is simpler in terms of wiring but adds some power consumption and the cost and complexity of an additional local processor.
Regards,
--
James Ballenger
Flagtronics, LLC
It looks promising at least from an install standpoint....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
Steve, first page.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108399&stc=1
Gents;
There is safety in numbers. WE CAN COMPEL. If this is going to be another mask mandate, then it needs to ergonomically engineered for Formula cars. Ain’t talking long division here. A micro head in the cockpit, a transponder where the ever.
I think a 1/4 size version of their current display, using half-sized LEDs would be more informative and less of an integration challenge(for them) than a 2x12.
needs a heat sink on the LEDs? Out here in the desert west it will put heat INTO the LEDs before taking it out....Like, leave the car out in the sun and the heat sink will probably hit 180 degrees.
Rick, I must be blind. I went back and searched for the first page and at least I could not find it. Must be getting ....
Steve, post #24.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
Just started to install my first FT2000. I am a fan overall of going this path, so I wanted to get a headstart. Putting them in two Stohr F1000s for testing purposes at SVRA in November at COTA. Looks like we need to be live with them in February for SCCA SuperTour at COTA. I bought my own connectors and made my own harness because I felt the one supplied was far too clunky for the tight space of a formula car. So far so good. I have it just under the composite (non-carbon) bodywork for the first test. It was an easy location to install and will be easy to move if needed for signal strength.
Glad to see the active discussion here! I'll try to quickly cover the most common points.
- We are unique in having no required subscription fees.
- We do not want to gatekeep safety.
- We are racers who want corner marshals too. We are working to give corner marshals improved tools to communicate directly with racers.
- We plan a CAN based LED strip display that will fit in at less than ~1/4 the vertical form factor of the existing FT200 display.
- We plan a Helmet based option.
- We plan an LCD system that will be bigger than the FT200.
- Our LED panels at corner stations are indeed AMAZING and almost impossible to miss. We are sometimes able to put the panels in locations where we can't place humans due to safety and offer improved visibility.
- We're keenly aware of up front and continuing cost concerns which is why our system is the most budget friendly offering up front and has no subscription fees.
- The FT200 is standalone and has no additional hardware requirements.
- We do split starts now and have a workflow for this using local flags.
- The FT200 is a very small form factor as-is but we understand some applications are difficult.
- We plan a flying lead offering in the current form factor.
- Our connectors were chosen specifically for size, quality, and cost. We do have Motorsports grade options and connectors available. Very high end interconnectors and wiring can cost as much as the whole system does now.
- Latency is sub 1s.
- Flagtronics has millions of miles of use, thousands of units, and years of active use in the field at this point.
- We fully cover, and have for years now, difficult tracks like Road America, Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, Ozarks, etc.
- Corner marshals get remotes for their station. We've heard, from corner marshals, many stories wishing they could get driver's attention in critical moments and Flagtronics offers tools to do exactly that using both in car lights and light panels.
- Our links for our product manual, software, CAN integration and documentation are at https://flagtronics.com/pages/downloads .
- Code35/Code60/Purple is EXTREMELY popular with tracks and safety crews for their ability to get the incident faster, provide faster rescues, keep everyone safer on track, and get back to green flag racing faster.
- We provide full visibility in race control for safety vehicles as well as the lead and tail cars. We're often able to get back to green flag racing faster through improved visibility and communication in race control.
Awesome news, happy to hear, thanks for the reply here and directly to my email. Will get you a dimensioned pic of my cockpit layout when I'm home again in a week, hopefully it'll help drive the development...Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
Just a random thought as I am reading thru posts about the concerns of old-school dashes that will not display the FT numbers & minimum speeds of some cars for a Code Purple...Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
What if the planned LED strip could be set to show the purple lights (obviously), but also perhaps the end LEDs or whatever with a yellow one to show you are within a speed threshold (whatever that may be) and a green one to show you are exactly on the limit (35/60/whatever), and flashing purple if you are over?
That would make sure you are abiding the limit, and cars without a full display can still get almost 100% of the FT goodness.
And as a side note, after more talk at the track this past weekend with the Challenge Cup Series at Watkins Glen, I think it would be very handy to somehow allow multiple lights to be plugged in to the "new" FT unit that is coming.
The topic of missing flags came up, and one of our series leaders mentioned that the most common reason given for missing a flag in our group, is because they were "gearbox racing". As I mentioned earlier in other posts, our pack racing adds another level of trickiness, so if we had the option to add a 2nd LED board to the back of the car (right next to our fancy new FIA rain lights), then the guy focused on drafting (or pushing you) would absolutely see that one.
Some excellent ideas, Matt!
On Purple - how about:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
Flashing if over the speed.
Solid - all LEDs if at speed.
LEDs progressively off as you drop below speed.
I don't really like the idea of mixing colors. Keep it simple.
Technically it's a yellow flag situation so if you are not at speed the guys behind you are going to start honking and flashing their lights ;)
In the video from FT referenced above, James indicated (IIRC) that the latest version of firmware would show 'PURPLE/xx' steady if at or below 'xx' speed. and would flash slowly if above .. until 5 mph above at which point it would flash 'faster' ?? Sounds pretty adequate to me.
Steve
I haven't seen this mentioned and don't find it on the FT website. Looks to me like it will require AT LEAST 2 inches behind the unit .. including the FT 200 base connectors and whatever cable connects to it. Even if I could find a spot for the ~3"wide, ~1" deep and 2" high unit.. how in the world could I possibly find a place to mount it that includes an ADDITIONAL 1.5" of space behind it for the cables and connectors? I can hardly find room to put a piece of TAPE on my dash and there is already a complete data system with all it's wiring right behind that dash
...
SO.. has anyone actually installed one of these in a single seater formula car (I think I remember a picture from Bob Wright but can't seem to find it now) and knows just how much room it took? Looking at the picture from post #89, I can't see how there can even be enough room behind that display for the EMPTY connectors that are on the back, much less wiring and the plugs to go into them. I did find the picture on the VSCDA of Eric's vee.. but he has a LOT of room that I don't have and it looks like it takes a couple inches from that pic. Those connectors REALLY need to come out the sides ... or have a LOT smaller connectors. I'm surprised FT didn't just provide a SMA female on the back for the GPS- then we could use a 90 degree SMA adapter. .. but what we really need it for the display to be in a separate box with a connector on one end - not the back.
Steve
There was an RF97 at Fall Vintage at Road America last weekend that had one between the gauges and the steering wheel. The gauges were analog so maybe a bit more room than a full dash (AIM, PI, CDS, etc) but it didn't appear too obtrusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
I absolutely would support adding a LED display to the back of formula cars. This would be a great addition and very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
Yeah...It wouldn't be quite as bad if the FT display could also be used as a RAIN LIGHT. Putting one in the REAR of my car would be WAY WAY easier than trying to cram it into my cockpit somewhere .. pretty much IMPOSSIBLE in it's current form factor. However, the LED panels are still a better option. I saw a picture of LED panels mounted at VIR for a Champcar enduro.. I wonder if those same panels will be in place for the Runoffs. There has been NO MENTION of that anywhere that I've seen.
Steve
The GPS unit is more than an antenna, it is a transceiver. Position calculations are done in the GPS unit and sent to the main box. I believe this was done to keep the main box smaller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
Brian
So.. there is more than a piece of coax on that connector? Sure LOOKS like a 2 pin connector in the pix, but none of them are very clear. AND .. it seems that the power connector could have been several connectors MUCH MUCH smaller than what they used. I guess they need different inputs for +5, +12 switched, and BATTERY, but no need to put them ALL on the same connector.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
I think I have come up with a way to mount the unit in my car in a 'moderately seeable (most of the time)' location, but that, how many pin.. (when you only need TWO) connector .. still don't see a way.. but I'm working on it. I made a 'mockup' of the device, but without a real unit and the stuff that goes into those connectors, I'm just guessing... Guess I'll get to see some at VIR.
A real shame they didn't make the display a separate item for mounting purposes. Guess none of the FT team drive formula cars...
Looks like we also lost an FV entry since I last looked.
Good thermal design includes spreading the heat evenly and controlling it well. Energy put into the system will be in addition to convective and radiative sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
This is the current behavior as adopted in 2023 for the FT200:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
"35" solid at 35mph or less
"35" & "SLO" 2Hz alternate flash at 36-39mph
"SLO" 4Hz flash at 40mph+
Yes, the FT200 has been in single seaters. Below is the image previously shared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
I think there is some confusion of scale. These are JST JWPF connectors, some of the smallest sealed automotive connectors in the world with 2.0mm centerline spacing. We hear about the connectors being too small more often than too large. We install backshells on them which can be omitted to reduce depth behind the FT200. The JWPF connector plug itself adds less than 5mm or 3/16th of an inch. The total connector depth is 14.5mm or 9/16th of an inch.
As mentioned above we do plan Motorsports Connector and flying lead options which will allow an even tighter bend radius. We also plan the smaller remote display as mentioned above. SMA & 90 deg SMA connectors are larger than the 4 way connectors we use, require extra steps to waterproof, and our GPSes aren't antennas only.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...7&d=1689709014
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108449&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108450&stc=1
Flagtronics offers both in car lights and panels around the track. This thread references them and how visible they were recently at WGI in the rain. https://www.facebook.com/MidgetRacer...51537921339817 .Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
This is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
There are a 4pin and an 8 pin connector. The size perception seems to be a scale issue as your suggested replacement is as large or larger than what was used. Your guess about formula cars is incorrect.
We're committed to making this work for racers. There is no one size fits all single solution for all platforms. Some compromises offer benefits on one platform that become a problematic on another. We do plan to offer a robust solution set with the necessary components to accommodate all vehicles with our goals of making racing safer and more efficient with more green flag time.
James,
I very much appreciate your response to questions raised in this thread.... however, your caliper measurement of 0.18 shown is not relevant to the conversation. The problem (for me at least) is not just how much the inserted connector sticks back.. it's the entire depth of everything from the front of the display to the backmost distance to the wires coming out of the inserted connectors. The 0.18 means nothing compared to the 3/4" that the base connector shell sticks behind the ~1" depth of the unit itself. That makes for very close to 2 full inches of depth required.
The picture you show of it installed in a formula car LOOKS to me like the device is sitting at an angle (for viewing) that would place the top antenna at way more than a 10 degree off vertical and I have no idea where the wires are behind that installation. It SEEMS that the back of the unit is very near the steel frame tube .. I mean within <1/2".. and there is a full inch of connector back there .. 2 of them. Tilting it like it seems to be, could make it work.. but that would tilt the top antenna well back and the instructions clearly tell us that doing that is not acceptable. In that car, I can't see the front roll hoop very well, but my car has the front roll hoop RIGHT behind (1/8") that spot .. and all across the car to the other side as well. The body work also rests right on top of that roll hoop, so there is NO room above it... only below the dash, and that is so far out of the driver's view as to be worthless while DRIVING the car at speed.
I sent emails to SCCA and FT about availability of FT200 units during the event. SCCA replied right back saying 'ask FT'. FT has not responded. SO.. will there be someone at VIR with units that did not get ordered during registration.. and will they be available during test days? My SCCA registration has that option LOCKED OUT, so I couldn't add it there. I'm guessing NO.. and presuming it was locked out due to lead time that you needed to meet the 'pre-order demand'.
Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
Excellent point if you are trying to squeeze it into a formula car cockpit,.
Comments:
1) The two wires coming out of the 4-pin GPS connector above seems odd. The GPS unit needs 3-5v, so that means two wires for power and 1-2 wires for output signal.
2) The 8-pin connector: The harness (non CAN) provided has 6 conductors. One wire 12v+, one wire for 3.7v battery, 4 wire for UBS cable/plug. All use a common ground wire. So that is 6 of the 8 pins in use as currently shipped. I can see the two remaining unused pins being used for CAN communication.
Need to remember that you need the USB connection to do the very active firmware updates.
Both connectors are THT mounting, so a pigtail installation should be possible.
3) I ordered my unit using one of the other club listings.
Brian
4-pin GPS connector implies serial data.
We'll do the picture time method:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108458&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108456&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108457&stc=1
With respect to the installation depth and difficulties I think these points bear repetition:
Yes, FT will be on site and will have some hardware in hand. The option was locked out to follow good planning protocols and arrive prepared with a solid implementation plan. We are coordinating many things at the moment and will be getting back in touch with you shortly to respond to your email from last night at 7:30PM and subsequent comment here, 12.5 hours later, at 8AM that you had not yet received a response.Quote:
As mentioned above we do plan Motorsports Connector and flying lead options which will allow an even tighter bend radius. We also plan the smaller remote display as mentioned above.
Agreed, James. I didn't 'lambast' FT for not getting back to me.. just mentioned that they hadn't. SCCA is 2 times zones away from where I am and FT is in MY timezone I think, so I didn't expect a return 'right away' from them (or SCCA for that matter). I did get a response from FT answering my questions a little after noon today.
OK on your new measurements.. since I don't have a unit in hand, I could only guess at the distances .. but I also considered that there are WIRES in both connectors that have to be accounted for. I can't put the back of those connectors up solid against anything - it takes some addional space not indicated by your calipers.
At any rate, I guess we've beaten this hard enough. It's still a real shame that I didn't see your podcast video sooner since it definitely made me much more interested. All I had was the 'spring' that SCCA put on us just about the time that registration opened. I had heard that FT existed and even read a little about it, but had no idea that it would be IN PLAY at THIS year's Runoffs and REQUIRED for '24 Runoffs. My negative reaction was following the OTHER 'SPRING' that SCCA put on us about the new RAIN LIGHTS required if we want to race next year... at all.
$500 worth of unplanned expenses in about a month just didn't sit very well with me - not to mention the additional WORK to install these things.
After all this, the ~$250 + work for the FT is probably a decent tradeoff for actually getting more than 2 timed laps in a 20 minute session.. or even RACE ..assuming I can figure out a way to install it. Your comments about 'what's in the future' doesn't help us solve the installation problem NOW. The rain light will remain a 'sore spot'.
Brian has decided to 'explode' your product and attempt an installation. It might be helpful for some of us 'electrical types', if you could comment on the modifications that he plans. Without knowing for sure just HOW you are driving the display, it's impossible to tell how much RF might be generated by 'remoting' the display .. and how that might possibly interfere with the RECEPTION of data .. both GPS reception and 'FT commands' .. and TRANSMISSION of GPS and other data back to RC.
We are all getting busy (those of us headed for VIR, anyway) quickly. I'm heading that way Friday morning, so will have less time to 'play' here on the forum until I leave - I'm sure you're in the same situation.
Steve
Gents;
Micro displays with a remote transponder, period. Forget the one size fits all concept. Consider GT1 cars as opposed FVs.
James,Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
Have you considered an option placing the connectors on the end of the unit? This would provide more mounting options. As an example , with my 94 Van Diemen I could mount it to my front roll hoop with that option putting it in a very optimal sight line.
Yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by hdsporty1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
Yes, this mirrors the sentiment above:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Iverson
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
There are many benefits to racers, the system is complex, subscription-less, and it's cheaper than far simpler devices. We will offer a way for you to install it. Making the display remote in the way proposed here exposes a bus that is not meant to be extended to external RF (not the other way around). That is why we would use noise tolerant CAN to drive the remote display instead. My best suggestion is to find a place to fit the current form factor or wait for flying lead side exit option and/or remote display.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis