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I guess if someone is willing to rent the track in advance. Otherwise the SCCA rule regarding only using one set of declared tires will prevent that. Other series could adopt the same rule. Isn't this about increasing car counts by controlling costs?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Renting the track in advance (Runoffs test days, etc.) is exactly what really serious competitors will do. That adds a lot of time and expense to the effort, and will, IMO, deter some drivers from attending because, as before, they will feel that they are at a disadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by hdsporty1988
At least both tires are Hoosiers, so the people that would feel guilty about changing suppliers won't have that issue.
Steve and others,
In regards to offering both radials and bias ply tires as the spec tire, I am on the Ad hoc committee and I pushed for exactly what you are asking for several times and was simply told no. I still do not know why. I thought it was a reasonable solution.
I am sorry I couldn't make it happen.
Skip Weld
Pacific has a rule against testing at the event track a week before for this reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Thanks for trying ! What is 'funny' is the FRP radial is about the same price as the new bias spec. So ya can't say it's a cost issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Weld
Hmm.. :heli:
I may be wrong but I thought the low price on the radials was only for the FRP competitors. Perhaps someone reading this knows the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Skip,Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Weld
Thank you for trying. It does suck when when you aren’t given more info as to why & are part of the committee involved. I’m sure those who made this choice did so, in their minds, trying to make the best decision possible. I’m not against anyone who has to make these decisions, it just seems that sometimes there are other options to please more then less while still achieving the desired goal on this topic. If Hoosier said no we only will make this tire as an option then I would understand but they aren’t, so what gives?
So how does this end? It’s a good Hollywood movie scca wants money for spec tire and now nobody wants to play I luv it. So this is going to bring out older cars that are parked ? I race in 3 weeks and what tire to use ? Lol. And where do us fc cars that don’t play ball race in scca. Fx??Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Having a spec compound with only 2 constructions available from a single supplier, can still be considered a spec tire (or spec tires). Imsa and other SportsCar racing series do that all the time. It is still a massive improvement from an open tire rule that allows variables like tires that cost 25% more and are optimal for only 2 sessions. While competitors can make their choice and accept any performance difference as a convenience factor, having 2 defined choices totally eliminates any kind of more expensive, lighter, faster, limited availability options that could exist today, or be introduced tomorrow.
It's 'run what you brung' until May 1st. So basically through all but 1 majors race. (Buttonwillow new track)Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoe z
Didn't see any Majors in SFR this year.
0.002 cents
for Avon or Hoosier byply.
Okay, this is really out there. 2 tires options, radial and bias, both R60 compounds. However, you must pick an option at the beginning of the year and you can't switch back and forth. Everybody gets the tire they want or need and it eliminates the testing Dave was talking about. Never mind, it will never sell......
I believe it is accurate to say that Hoosier has established that their radial construction is faster than their bias construction, when they have the same compound. That would, in effect, create the radial as the prime, and the bias as the alternate for those convinced their cars would require massive mods to run a 21st century tire.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark defer
It may actually be a compromise that would be most inclusive, yet keep the expensive short-life tires out.
Well Dave W seemed to imply that the radial wouldn't necessarily always be the fastest. It might depend on the track and conditions. I'll take Dave's word for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
When interviewing a number of FC racers at an SCCA event late this past season, those that had voted yes to the Spec tire survey, did so believing that tire would meet their specifications (type, cost, manufacture, compound, etc.). Thus, there was/is going to be an acceptance issue if the tire was not what they had in mind. Some did not want it at all and one even called me two days later to inform me he tried to contact SCCA and to change his vote to No..Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Keith,
In retrospect, you are absolutely correct. However, the fact is (was) that whatever was chosen, some folks wouldn't like it.
That's why the survey started with the question of whether the respondents wanted a spec tire at all:
"1. Do you support the idea of SCCA adopting a spec tire for FC?"
The majority wanted "a" spec tire. There was no way, no matter what was chosen, that it could have been everyone's 1st choice.
Whether the radial or the bias would be faster on a given track depends, IMO, on the track's character. A track with a lot of sequential opposite-direction medium-speed corners (Grattan comes to mind) might favor a bias tire due to its transition predictability and less abrupt breakaway. OTOH, a track where putting down power, straight-away speed, maximum lateral grip, and braking ability are the most important factors, the radial would likely be faster. So, as I mentioned, the only way you'd know for sure for most tracks and your own car/driver would be to test both.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark defer
At tracks like Indy, Road America, or Road Atlanta with long straights and several fairly slow corners, the radial would almost certainly be the choice.
This is hilarious. I left this thread a few weeks ago and haven’t been back until today. Why do I do this to myself?? What a joke.
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Did I actually read “2 tires can be considered a spec tire”? Consensus seems most are unhappy? Really???
So really this isn’t about a getting spec tire that is both inexpensive and durable. It’s about making YOUR tire the spec tire. Bob Wright did what he should have done. Protect his series. I don’t blame him one bit. Club racers- stop talking and drive the tire that was selected. If you voted for this, too bad. It wasn’t the tire you wanted? Oh well. It wasn’t the tire I wanted either. I didn’t want any spec tire. If anyone is allowed to whine about the decision it would be the people that didn’t want a spec tire in the first place. It’s over.
This is ridiculous. Want to make 2 tires the spec tire now?? Ok. How about the Avon and Hoosier of yours choice?? Hahaha. So dumb.
And for 10 years I have run FRP and club events the same year. One on the Hoosier pros and the other on Avons or Hoosier bias plys. It’s not that hard. It feels different. Takes a few laps to get used to it. It’s not a huge, incredibly difficult change - and I’m no Mario Andretti. I have a regular job and don’t do this every weekend and I am able to do it.
I’m sorry, but I am having trouble hearing the cries of everyone who wanted this and now aren’t happy about the decision. Be quiet. Get your cars to the track. I’m too busy actually supporting the class by driving my car at the first SCCA event of the year like we have for 12 years. AND - my rookie son just went 1 second slower than the track record at a place he has never been to, in the third time ever in a race car, on 5 session old Avons. (You know, those expensive tires that supposedly only last 2 sessions). Perhaps it’s more about doing it than talking about it?
Do I need to post that stupid picture of me with all my Hoosier stuff on again??? Get over it. Your wish has been granted.
Rob Allaer
FC #52
PS - no Pintos entered at Homestead and we’re still 20lbs heavier
I'm on the west coast so the whole FRP thing is not in my wheelhouse. BUT, Wright was on the 'panel' whatever that means. He apparently agreed to 'go with' whatever was selected. He's changing 'his' tire to the same compound but still running a radial.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallaer
I see it as giving the finger to SCCA - and something he agreed to. If anyone is 'complaining' about not getting his way, Wright is #1. So of course others, that wanted a radial start thinking, if Wright can have it why not us?
Yeah, we were all shocked too about the bias. But if anyone stirred the pot it was Wright.
And, if you really want this to work, you and other FRP drivers should buy-in to the bias for FRP too. You say he's "protecting his series". If the FRP drivers insist on the SCCA spec it'll happen. But in reality y'all want the radial and this is your excuse.
Good perspective. Hopefully this will be even easier with the same compound.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallaer
I started a thread in the FE group to ask about the compound and it's been positive.
I think we need to run it for a year and stop making assumptions.
And I'm more Mario Kart than Andretti.
I shouldn't even answer this- and I've been advised not to post at all on these forums.
You are trying to make it sound like its my fault we're not all singing the same song. I run a business and if my customers go elsewhere, I'm out of business. Re-read my post above.
As to the rest of your post, I'm not going to answer any of it.
Bob has said most of this, but to summarize...Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Bob's decision making was done IN RESPONSE TO, not in spite of, the feelings of drivers and teams that consistently run in the FRP F2K Series. If a majority of those folks had agreed to accept the bias tire he would have also. The decision was NOT giving the finger to SCCA. It was done with a great deal of trepidation and very serious consideration.
FWIW, I told Bob I would be OK with the bias tires even though I have openly favored the radials.
Rob,
Each time I wrote something on spec tire I realized if anyone got left out it was you based on your tire choice.
As I said before I was making my suggestion on what I personally thought would be the best compromise. The compromise wasn’t meant for myself, it was meant for the class itself. I’ve raced on more different types of tires & compounds on the same car throughout the years & could adapt fairly well. That however was thanks to having a competent prep team & track time. Both cost money. Not saying a Club racer can’t do it, this was just helpful for me.
My attempt was to come up with a workable solution to a bad decision overall. No crying on my end.
Good to hear new blood is getting into racing. Hopefully he loves the sport too. Good luck & hope you have another great season.
All good, but the complaint by Allaer was that people were talking about 2 tires and it was ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
There are other people that have financial interest in what is happening here. There are prep shops and other series that fear their customers will go away if the performance level drops, and again the "Church of FRP" believes they are entitled to do what they want and everyone else should comply. I know, you're Pros and the rest of us are just ignorant clubbers.
Reality check: Y'all never planned to change, just got involved to push for the radial.
Somehow I don't see this as best for the class.
I'll put on the spec tire when it's available and go racing. It's what us club racers do.
Yes, I wanted the radial. But I also said I'd use what ever the SCCA decided was the spec tire. Bob's situation is different in that he has a series and business to run, and if his customers go away, so will the FRP series'. I want to run in the FRP F2K series, because I think it's currently the best place that runs near me to get good F2K/FC competition all year long, not just once a year at the Runoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
My problem with club racing (not at the Runoffs) is the mixed-class groupings which are not fun and prevent at-the-limit driving because of the mixed classes. I finally got fed up with that (last straw - high $ accident not of my doing) and decided to go with FRP. I don't see that situation changing any time soon.
If I do go back to club racing, I'll gladly accept the spec tire and be glad the tire of the week syndrome is gone.
I get the mixed class problem. For years Pacific has negotiated a single class run group, but that can't happen at Majors events - SCCA won't bend - and it's even worse now than ever before.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Next weeks group: "Big Bore Open Wheel (FA,FC,FE2,FM,FX,P1,P2) 34 ENTRIES" - FC is 9.
But not everyone has a choice. FRP negotiated to be part of the runoffs qualification, not because they cared about it, but because they we losing entries to Majors when people wanted to go.
Bob's situation is NOT different. He's just like every other business around racing. You just prefer his product.
As a customer of FRP if you 'voted for staying with the radial' and this whole spec thing doesn't work out, that's on you guys.
It's NOT ridiculous that other people now want to somehow 'run the radial' too.
So, if FRP didn't ask their customers and said they are running the bias, would you still go?
I say you would. But the fact that the Church of FRP even voted on it means y'all think you're entitled to.
Has nothing to do with business, has everything to do with believing y'all are better than others.
That's why I call it the Church of FRP.
Steve- honestly the crying portion wasn’t intended for you necessarily. That is a global statement for anyone that wanted this spec tire and now doesn’t like the choice of the SCCA. I’m running the tire. And if I do FRP - I will run whatever tire Bob tells me to. I guess that is democracy. My vote lost. I’m moving on. A lot of people campaigning for a spec tire in SCCA, got one, and now don’t want it, because they thought it was going to be their tire. It’s hypocritical to say it was a bad decision. Why is it a bad decision? Because it’s not a radial? I think it’s a bad decision too. But I’m allowed to say that because I never wanted the decision made for me in the first place. Some people think it’s a good decision. Everyone has an opinion. Unfortunately, apparently, we voted to allow someone to make a decision for you. There it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
On the other note Steve- it’s a strange feeling racing with your son. I want him to do well, but wait, what does that mean for me?? ; )
By the way - Does everyone else realize that American Racer offered a tire for $200 less than the Hoosier and was going to give away cash prizes?? I doubt it. Also- the all-powerful board didn’t even entertain an offer from the Avon importer despite numerous attempts at contacting the right people. When he finally spoke to someone, he was told that they already decided they weren’t going to use Avons. Hmmm. Without hearing a proposal? Sounds like they may have already known which way they were going to go.
But, the SCCA is a business (not a club) and can make those decisions for themselves. If we want to play, we do what they say. Unless you want to start your own “club” - like FRP. In which case, Bob had a right to do whatever he wants. His playground. His rules. You don’t have to go there. And I know for a fact Bob wants what is best for the SCCA. It only helps him. However, the geniuses that decided to do this and the sheep that voted for it made their own bed. Now lay in it.
I will be on the spec tire this weekend. I will tell you how it goes.
Still no pintos entered.
Rob Allaer
FC#52
And this here is the main reason why openwheel racing is leaving the SCCA for other groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallaer
I already said I'd run whatever FRP decided on, so yes I'd still race there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
I definitely don't have a entitlement complex - I'd run whatever was mandated in whatever race series I was in.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Again, I said I'd run anything mandated by whichever series I run in. And FRP wants to stay in business and not fold for lack of customers. That has absolutely nothing to do with thinking they (we) are better than others. It's a matter of satisfying customers and staying in business.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Churches are another subject entirely.
Rob & all,
Why it’s a bad decision, only in my opinion, is because it is not a spec tire used in Pacific Series, SCCA & FRP. Do not announce a tire without the other two series agreeing. That’s why it’s a bad decision, once again that’s my opinion.
How that process flowed out, I am unsure. I tried to suggest a realistic compromise that’s all I thought.
If I was racing currently I would run whatever I had to & figure it out as best as possible. I hope to be back one day running again & if not me my son & hope he kicks my ass too. I’m ok with that as I’m sure you will hope that as well Rob. Let us know how Sebring goes, we all on here still want to see updates even if we disagree on tires we love racing.
Did the club announce a tire without the other two agreeing, or did everyone agree to go along with the decision (assuming it would be their preference) and then not like the decision?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
BIG difference.
I have no idea to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
I certainly have had my differences with FRP and Bob Wright. As I do today.
But I am always distressed when I hear people in the F2000/FC community portray Bob as a bad guy. or a problem.
I started racing F2000 in 1984 as part of a Pro F2000 series in Canada. I have been in and out of the numerous F2000 series that have been run in the last 36 years. Bob is the most passionate person about the class that I have met in those 36 years, by a multiple. He has spent more time, and invested more money in furthering the class than anyone, again by a multiple over anyone I can think of. You can feel the pain, in his commentary, that he must protect his Series by following his customer's tire preference, over his genuine desire to support a FC/F2000 spec tire.
If you are reading this, and don't understand Bob's passion and commitment as I have outlined above, then please realize that you are missing something and need to be open to change your perspective. Bob is the best friend that this class could ever have. if you do not believe me, look at the character of the people who will like this post.
Let me run the best tire, and everyone else the worst crap tire. And like many people, the fast guys will still beat me, like they have
since 1968. Just run the car, have fun and go racing.
Kenneth
A thought that's not been brought up here........but maybe at least once spoken? and therefore discussed? among the now-over-and-done-with "committee" because a tire decision has been made. I say done-with because I'm guessing now that the tire thing is finished, at least for the forseeable future, the "committee" is disbanded ???
So a rule hoping to bring out older cars concludes bias over radial..... somewhat due to the suspension tune possible [or shall we say > impossible] for those older cars. Well one thing I believe that's true of a lot of the sitting-in-a-garage cars is the older/tired engines they've got [mostly tired Pintos would be likely]. I do not say Pinto here to again have readers go into Pinto vs. long rod vs. Z discussions.
Point #1 is: it would seem to me because of the engine sitting in the older car having too many hours on it, there's not suddenly going to be a great influx of these older cars to events merely because of a spec tire rule. Once the owners freshen the engine, then they might, at best, trickle out.
Point #2. Sure, sure certain people will be watching overall FC car counts for 2021 and 2022, etc........but there should be an attempt to keep track of - and mostly at the Club level - the count of "older cars" that participate on the spec tire.......because if there's no obvious rise to the number of "older cars" over the next few years, then the decision of bias - so as to not disenfranchise older cars - will have proven fruitless............so maybe there would be a need to have a different spec tire eventually...........which would then please at least the majority of those coming out.
"Committee" are you listening ????
Some wise man just told me tonight that I'm not being positive enough for our class.
He's right... no more bickering. No more chasing my tail.
It's time to race now. I hope that everyone that has an FC embraces the opportunity to come to the track and race. And, if I am there, please come see me and say hello! I want nothing more than to make new friends and build on the friendships I am lucky enough to already have. We can get past our tire preferences and have a blast out there regardless. Let's do that.
If there is something I can help with, please let me know and I will give it my best effort!
Rob Allaer
FC #52
I am hoping everyone can come together for the sake of the class.The Adhoc committee didn’t get everything right,but I am sure this should be a positive change for the class.I am with Rob, I just want to see more FC cars at the track and I am more than willing to help anyone I can to make this a positive experience for everyone.See you at the track.
Yir
Tim Minor Fc88
Well ladies & gentleman that’s multiple Runoffs champions in our class with positive advice. Let’s listen to them & run our cars. I’ll even commit to make myself available to run again when this Covid Sh!t ends & I can cross the border to support the class in FC & I’ll make sure myself Dave W, Tim M, John L & Rob A all race together at some point amongst many others to support the class. Let’s be positive for 2021 & beyond.
Bob: I guess I am in the minority in that I did not want a radial tire. Out here in California I ran Pirelli radials to fit in with the Pac 2000 group. After 1-2 seasons I found I was 1-2 seconds a lap slower on the radials and the pirellis really went off on me a few times leaving me feeling like I was on ice. I went back to bias ply Avons and never looked back. I was quicker and my tires were more consistent. I usually use one set per weekend never more than that. The set up change was significant but I was happy to go back. I usually do not run P 2000 unless they show up where I am planning on running anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Wright
I really never wanted a spec tire. I just wanted a one set per race weekend limit with choice of tire left up to the drivers. However I am delighted with the price of the Hoosiers. I was paying 1250 for a set of Avons the Hoosier price is a rare breath of fresh air on my racing budget.
As I listen to you guys I feel I am missing something. What is so wonderful about the radials? All I have read here is that you don't want bias ply because your pro teams do not want them. I am asking because I don't know what is inherently better about the radials?
i would appreciate your input.
Bob's previously posted opinion (his quote is below your quote).
My opinion - I like the radial for 2 main reasons:
1. Size consistency - one does not need to be constantly re-scaling the car to get the weight balance correct, and
2. They last longer than bias tires with the same compound
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpietz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Wright
Dave: Thanks for the reply. The set up of the bias ply at least with AVON s has not been an issue for us, Our scale weights have been very consistent. Maybe Hoosiers will vary more. I do not know.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
If radials last longer the next question has to be what is the cost of the radial? The Pirelli radials were no bargain as I recall similar to the cost of the Avons which are about $1250 before mounting and balancing. Is the radial being used by FRP cheaper than the Hoosier bias ply? if the Hoosier bias ply is $500 a set cheaper and we only run one set per weekend a radial at $1250 that lasts longer does not make much sense or at least any more sense than the new rule we have. Your input much appreciated, Dave or anyone else.
The FRP R60 radials will obviously be more than the SCCA spec bias R60's. However, I don't know the exact cost per set of either.
Call Hoosier @ (574) 784-3152 or email: info@hoosiertire.com for an answer from the source.
Bought a set of R35B radials at M.O. mounted and balanced was 1250.00 direct from Hoosier. I would sure hope that going to a seemingly harder tire would at least have the benefit of being cheaper, as well as lasting longer.
Tires should be south of $800/set.Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsprint30
Btw, discussion on FB put them .5 seconds slower than the Avons at Fontana last weekend. Hmmm.
So, I'm anticipating Zero time differences for me! :meatball: Not even going to think about it! :checkered:
I assume you mean the bias-ply SCCA spec tires...Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
For guys running 3 to 4 seconds slower than the leader - no worries for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Our experience at Homestead, after mounting and balancing, they are north of $800. And at Homestead - a track not known for being hard on tires, they looked to be about 1 second slower than Avons - but the edges were pretty much gone after 2 - 20 minute sessions (with one of those being a shortened session). The fastest time of the weekend came on a set of Avons with 7, yes, seven sessions on them. So, I'm not an economics major but...
Any info you could provide on your camber settings, tire pressures etc? If 'what works' is regarded as a learned secret, that is fine. But, if people throw out what they have found 'doesn't work' that would go quite a ways in helping with the growing pains.Quote:
Originally Posted by LTDMotorsports
I'm guessing a camber or tire pressure issue caused the edges to get worn off. I'm betting with some more time on them you'll figure out what they need.Quote:
Originally Posted by LTDMotorsports
Possibly, however, we went with the pressure and camber that Hoosier suggested for us. Also, we are very experienced testing tires and typically, the Hoosier tire doesn't last on our Van Diemens anyway. Even the pro radial R60. We've tried the R35 too. We can't keep the fronts. We've run them many, many times. Made many changes. When you run a guy who is fast and works the tires hard, it is almost always an issue at tracks like Mid Ohio, Sebring, etc. Rarely an issue at Homestead.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
The fact in this is the Avons aren't nearly as finicky. We have never seen this happen on those tires, even the first day we tried them.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter. It is what it is. Just expect, if you are someone who runs near the front, to run a couple sessions a weekend with the tires under you. You will probably purposely shorten your sessions and take some sessions off if you want the tire to be there for you in the race. 4 tires an entire weekend won't work for you otherwise.
If the goal is eliminating seat time for our fastest drivers - mission accomplished.
Well it was the very first set anyone has ever run. I'm sure you'll get much better info from guys around the country as they try them at different tracks and the data starts coming in. Also - it's so dependent on so many things. The track, your speed, and how much you work the tires. Your shocks, springs, wings all play into it. For us, it's never just a tire pressure and camber.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGOffroad
Perhaps Hoosier's suggestion will work for you.
We are saying our first try didn't go well.
I'm curious what went wrong to cause you to eat front tires. That's just me - I like to understand stuff and I learn from trying to diagnose things.Quote:
Originally Posted by LTDMotorsports
Which edge (inner or outer) wore off, or was it both? Only on the front tire that was used most, or both sides of the car? I know VD's are hard on the fronts, but more details might help us figure out why.
When I ran the radial 35B's in FRP on my Citation, I found that they, especially the fronts, needed a fair amount more camber and pressure than the initial Hoosier recommendation to perform best.
The tire commentary from the Autoclub event on FB also seemed generally positive. Good to hear!
Big shout out to Dave and his crew for their Florida performance. It is crazy to think they were running all those cars in so many races, and with good results, but to be double-dipping in other race groups on different tires, with different cambers and ride heights, switching back and forth, etc. And with Don on maternity leave. Very impressive!