Excellent letter with many good points. Thank you for taking the time to put this together. JohnQuote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
Printable View
Excellent letter with many good points. Thank you for taking the time to put this together. JohnQuote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
My letter has also been tendered .. #37349Quote:
Originally Posted by tgaluardi
Steve, FV80
I just don't see anything changing their minds. Participation is -not- the issue, we are getting cut no matter what.
"The FV, FF, and F600 classes are uniquely compatible with one another to form a run group, but not compatible with the makeup of other run groups within SCCA Road Racing competition"
https://www.scca.com/articles/201906...fv-ff-and-f600
https://www.scca.com/articles/201906...fv-ff-and-f600
This is so typical of the ready-fire-aim approach by the National Office. They trotted out the new HST groupings in isolation when anybody with the IQ of a turnip could have predicted the reaction from the affected classes.
Today's announcement is not as good as what it replaces, but it at least offers FV/FF/F6 an alternative. Why not bundle it in parallel with the original announcement, and mitigate the damage to some degree? I guess that would have been too sensible, too considerate, and requiring too much foresight.
I shake my head.
I know they aren't all in support of Andrew's letter, but there have been 40+ submissions in the last 3 days!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
I agree with SCCA's decision in THAT regard... Vees are 'borderline' with FF and F6.. anything more than that is 'TOO MUCH'. Ergo, their decision to NIX all 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
I'm not sure we're not BETTER OFF than we would be if SCCA *DECIDED* to force us into another group.. or force another class in with us in "our" group.
We can HOPE that SCCA might at least CONSIDER the options offered by Andrew's letter. Well done Andrew, though I suspect there were influences from several others as well.
Steve, FV80
I had the ARRC on my schedule for the end of the year, then they released the supps and schedule. $520 for 3 short sessions (I am not counting a 10 minute warmup 45 mins before a race as a session) is a farce, and the test day @$300 wasn't much better. The only way to make it work lap/$ was to do the TT on Sunday which we weren't allowed to enter. For effectively the same price I towed to Mid Ohio 3 weeks before and the OVR Autumn Classic event. A test day (on Friday not Thursday) with enough sessions that my neck gave out, Qualy + 3 Races. I even packed up and went home early Sunday because I felt like I got my money's worth and needed to be home for work Monday morning. We had 1 BFA all weekend with 27 cars on track.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
Also, frankly, the SCCA has said Regional participation doesn't matter for their calculations, so I went where there was way more competition and bang for my buck. At every other SARRC race this year small bore and/or big bore OW were in the top half of groupings size wise if not the largest, mostly bolstered by FV/FST in the small bore or Radicals in big bore group.
Maybe what needs to be gotten rid of are HST Weekends.
This has all the trappings of another run at eliminating the difference in event types, an argument originally used by the IT community to get around the categories regional only status.Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
Very much my thought, especially when you look at the August Mid-O weekend (which we plan to run, with either the P2 or HP car)... it's a Regional... which is sorta kinda a Majors... only for FV/FF/F6 it's basically a Super Tour! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
What idiocy.
December preliminary CRB minutes posted. Looks like they received a lot of comment on the HST changes.
https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_fi...es%2011.13.pdf
Instead of the old expression > The squeaking wheel gets the grease.
It's........
The squeaking wheel gets some WD-40.
Thank you to all the people who wrote and made the SCCA realize they'd made a mistake
I wrote a letter and inquired about the process for approving the actions and got the reply…. Thank you for your letter. Doesn’t really apply to the letter I sent but it’s a convenient way for them to file my letter in the circular receptacle…
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for posting John. Their comments show that at least they read both my letters so that's a positive. Fingers crossed they do something.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nesbitt
I normally race CF in Regionals, so I didn't think of this until I was putting SARRC stickers on the FF today. I guess we don't need Super Tour stickers on our cars anymore.
Team, I just read Andrew Abbotts letter and he mentioned that the FV community has been having internal conversations and coming to an agreement on how to keep the class heathy. This is excellent.
My question - FF needs to do the same. I know a few drivers are paying attention to this thread, but hundreds are not. We need to connect with those fine folks as well. Does anyone know of a list/path/way of tying us all together so we can have an open and honest conversation about how to get the average number of major entries up? A series of video conferences to hash it out? There are so many cars sitting on the sidelines. I'd like to help us understand why and what we can do about it. Do we need some rule changes? Is it only due to the rain light (that topic keeps coming up here)? Do we need to make our own informal/grass roots Kent class that runs within the class and bring our own trophies to distribute to the Kents (us Honda guys can pass the hat amongst ourselves to pay for the trophies)? Lets get brave and creative.
Offer - if its the rain light that is keeping you from doing three majors per year, I'll make this deal with you - I'll buy you a rain light if you promise to do three majors in 2025. If you do three, you keep it forever. If you take the deal but don't do three, you have to mail it back to me, along with $50. PM me to take the offer.
Great post!!Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I will make a few suggestions for whatever they might be worth.
First, rule changes rarely make an impact on participation/entries; rules are an excuse not to race. The rules have never been perfect and never will be. They weren't perfect when you first started racing and wouldn't miss a weekend, they aren't now. Rules stability is what builds longevity. You have a good balance in FF at the moment with the Kent and Honda; I would be very cautious messing with that. Tires are very reasonable and a competitive season can be completed for a fraction of what is being spent in karting ala Mr. Rivard.
If you can find the presentation that Frank Schwartz made at one of the National Conventions on growing classes, take the time to watch it. He and David Daughtery brought B-Spec back from the ashes; our formula classes are much stronger at this time than BS was when they jumped on board. He tries to grow the community and have everyone supporting the class. You need lots of cheerleaders, social media engagement (lots of positive posts not ones fussing about what is wrong) and comradery at the track.
I "tried" to engage some of his teachings in FC and we had great success in 2021 (30 cars at Runoffs IIRC). When we stopped the social media engagement and email chains the entries dropped.
Also, try to focus on a set of races to attend. It is difficult to include the west coast; we found that out last year. In 2025 FC is considering focusing on the following races:
May 3-4 Pitt Race - SCCA Majors
June 6-8 Road America - June Sprints
July 12-13 Ozarks - SCCA Majors
Aug 9-10 Mid-Ohio - SCCA Regional (FF/FV/F6 receive Majors points/participation)
(Chicago Region has yet to make a final decision on the format; FF/FV/F6 racers should be weighing in and contacting the Chicago Region Board to let them know if you want to be included.)
If you can concentrate entries at several events it will increase the "fun factor" and help to increase interest.
If I can assist, let me know.
John
[QUOTE=RideMore;670170]Team, I just read Andrew Abbotts letter and he mentioned that the FV community has been having internal conversations and coming to an agreement on how to keep the class heathy. This is excellent.
My question - FF needs to do the same. I know a few drivers are paying attention to this thread, but hundreds are not. We need to connect with those fine folks as well. Does anyone know of a list/path/way of tying us all together so we can have an open and honest conversation about how to get the average number of major entries up? A series of video conferences to hash it out? There are so many cars sitting on the sidelines. I'd like to help us understand why and what we can do about it. Do we need some rule changes? Is it only due to the rain light (that topic keeps coming up here)? Do we need to make our own informal/grass roots Kent class that runs within the class and bring our own trophies to distribute to the Kents (us Honda guys can pass the hat amongst ourselves to pay for the trophies)? Lets get brave and creative./QUOTE]
Is it possible to start with a list of clubs, championships and organizations that offer FF and the number of entrants. Can we start with a sticky topic in the FF: General Discussion forum and add "Formula Ford Clubs, Organizations and Championships" Add in high level information such as class offerings, basic rules, general area of the country, tracks, typical grid size and a link to more information (website, Facebook). it would be nice if the data input could follow a fixed format (subject to change).
Excellent thoughts.
My only observation from afar would be to band together ALL open-wheeled participants for the greater good… even if there’s some subsets going on within the full group.
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. -- Benjamin FranklinQuote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Exactly… and Ben went on to build *real success* in the dime store field. :ha:
And don't forget the eponymous Benjamin. An essential if one is into hookers and blow.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Or so I am told. :D
Decided it best to not reply so am glad I didn’t make this post. ;)
Team, per the encouragement here -
I just created a Facebook group called "Formula F USA" in hopes of finding drivers/car owners that are not on Apex Speed.
I am not a Facebook person, or a social media guy, but I feel compelled to do what I can even if its clumsy. Any advice and or help would be very appreciated.
I have no idea if Facebook is "the" place, but its "A" place to find and connect people. Please tell me what more I can do, and how to do it if you know.
I created two different views of the 2025 Majors schedule for small formula - attached here. One by conference the other by date. There are 31 events total. To get the 5.0 we need to stay Runoffs eligible it means 155 total entries per year, per class. I think that not enough to stay HST relevant, bit its the Runoffs rules.
Attachment 113375Attachment 113376
Team, per encouragement here -
Set up a Zoom call where we can all meet to discuss how to improve small formula participation. At he moment its an open brainstorming. We'll figure it out as we go. Starts tomorrow night and weekly for 20 weeks. We can extend it to our hearts content.
Thursdays at 9pm eastern time. Open to all small formula folks.
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us05web.zoom.us/j/82013141123?pwd=6fYy6kZCrpFsUTp9IyE2YweV8a3HBw.1
Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123
Passcode: G5G7wm
Tony,Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I am the Admin of the Formula Vee Racing USA group. If you aren't a Facebook guy & need help with it, or think it may help the overall smallbore openwheel run group, definitely reach out & perhaps racers could coordinate since it affects both classes.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/formulaveeracingusa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
Thanks Matt! Just PM'd you to take you up on your offer for guidance!
Great work, Guys.
Tell Ya what… if anyone gets some steam going for a combined Formula car collective, and wants help on a name, logo, text, whatever, from someone who’s done decades of that, let me know. Fee-free.
My only Ask is my not investing days into something that’s on a whim. If you’re committed, so will I be.
I am kinda partial to this one..... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...GgYClq_-aHyg&s
Is that of your creative brilliance, Matt?
ha... nah, that is just the brilliance from the FRP media guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Thanks Tony. I hope you don't mind that I posted this to the SCCA F600 & FModified facebook page.Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
https://www.facebook.com/groups/360619197459057/
Team, reminder that the first Zoom meeting is tonight at 9pm eastern. We've been coached by some FV and FC people who have been on the same mission but with a three lap head start on us. Given that advice: Our goal for tonight is to decide the next step or two that we should make to increase total 2025 major entries by at least 31 (so we meet or exceed the 5.0 average entry requirement). We have two ideas we'd like to propose to the group. And we'll see what ideas you folks have as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
Nice work, Tony. :greenflag:
Surf to the zoom website. On the top right is a button that says "Join". right next to it is a drop down - pick "Use meeting ID". From there it should ask for the meeting ID then the password. Once completed you should be in.Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123
Passcode: G5G7wm
Team,
I will post meeting notes tomorrow. It was well attended and very productive. We all learned a lot. One of my action items is to publish the following email address. For those not on the call, you'll learn the importance of the email address tomorrow when we publish the meeting notes here.
formulafusa.gmail.com Note: all lower case
First Zoom meeting notes – please at least read the short action item list at the bottom
Big picture notes:
- 22 participated
- From the start all agreed that increasing participation in 2025 was THE topic of the meeting
- The meeting stayed very focused, productive, and friendly the entire 2 hours
- An amazingly knowledgeable and helpful group of people
- We made serious progress and agreed on a short-term plan to increase participation in 2025
A few details:
- CRB member John LaRue shared the details of the SCCA’s decision of why to not have small formula participate in most Hoosier Super Tour (HST) events.
- There is strong support and fans of FF and FV throughout the SCCA personnel and decision makers. We should not worry about the classes being eliminated. He noted that the SCCA could have done a better job communicating this point.
- There are only so many hot track hours available over a weekend, so that limits the number of possible race groups.
- The decision was made simply due to the SM/SMX class being too many cars for one race group, so they had to split it into two (SM and SMX).
- And since the resulting SMX only group was going to be larger than the average small formula group, they decided to go with the group that averages more entries.
- The SCCA wants to keep small formula healthy. Their best guess on how to make up for the HST decision was to make some of the regional events extra special for small formula groupings by giving them Majors points and importance.
- In the last days, the SCCA has changed the target Major’s participation number for automatic qualification in the runoffs:
- If a class is over the Major’s participation target average, the class is automatically invited to the Runoffs
- If the class is under the target, there is an internal SCCA discussion on whether to include the class or not to include the class.
- This is too subjective and risky in the opinion of all who participated in the Zoom meeting. Hence everyone fervently agreed our mission is to drive more Majors participation in 2025.
- The rule update is – the two year participation rate for all Majors and Runoffs combined needs to average over 5.0 cars per race.
- It was 4.0, now is 5.0
- It’s evaluated January 1 each year. If over 5.0, the class is automatically included in the runoffs.
- For 2024, FF average was 4.3. 151 total entries
- To meet the new target, in 2025 we need over 200 total entries in all majors and the runoffs combined. A 30% increase (50 more entries).
- There are 32 events (weekends) that count. Each event is typically two races. The events are listed in the “files” tab of the Formula F USA Facebook group.
- The first three events are 43 days from now (January 18, 2025)
- The Zoom participants were optimistic that we can make this happen.
The action items for all of us:
- Focus on reaching 200+ total entries at Majors and the Runoffs
- We’re going to keep track of the counts relative to the target
- Each of us is committed to running more Majors in ’25 than ’24. Many are doing a couple more, some three more.
- Hopefully those who could not attend the Zoom will join us at the track to do one or two more Majors.
- The BIGGER opportunity is:
- Recruit regional runners, non-SCCA drivers, and idle cars to run a Major or three.
- To make recruiting possible:
- We need to make a list of all cars we know about, active and inactive, SCCA or not.
- EVERONE PLEASE Email us a list of all the cars your aware of to formulafusa@gmail.com
- Owner name, state, and phone number and/or email address
- We will not sell or share this list, it’ll stay private
- A subset of the Zoom group will contact everyone to find out how we can help get these cars to one or more Majors
- Some of these folks will need technical assistance to make it happen, we’ll help coordinate that.
- Once we learn what the barriers are, we’ll make plans to address them. We have no idea what that looks like until we learn more.
So in summary, please email us a list of drivers/cars that you are aware of so we can help those who are willing and able to get to a few races. Maybe they are just having a hard time finding crew to go with them and belt them into the car and jump start them on the grid– in that case they can paddock with another crew and get that help. Maybe they need help converting their car to running the radials – we can help with that. Maybe they need some take-off tires to help with budgeting – we can help with that. Maybe they just need to be asked…
formulafusa@gmail.com
Last paragraph nails it Tony. The tractor trailer/toterhome teams have pushed the average pickup/20ft trailer guys away.
The missing link is to help a newbie not to feel like a peasant when he shows up. We all knew diddly squat when we started.
Ken.
Blaming the Toterhome people for keeping the entries down is at the very least counter productive. I was going to use other words, but I restrained myself. I show up often with 3 or 4 cars, lots of spare parts, and knowledge to help others with their issues , and often do. Much of the time several cars on the track are there because they are using something from my trailer If you want to blame someone look at rules makers who keep saying it is only another $***** for this new gizmo. I could go on! Many people are not racing now because they cannot rationalize the expense. And thanks to Ivey engines who consistently come up with the parts that keep Formula Fords going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
I doubt that feeling like a peasant is keeping folks away from the race track. The big rigs are likely a symptom and not a cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
Larry