Printable View
To Brian and the rest of the FC "ad hoc", whoever they are, thank you for your efforts to help the class - it is appreciated.
Obviously there are a multitude of opinions on what tire and when. For me, I'm just going to bolt the tire of choice on and go racing.
Will Formula Race Promotions adopt this tire or stay on the radial?
I’m pretty sure I can guess the answer.
The reality is that it will take a few years to play out and have an impact. Since we have no metric to compare to, all conclusions will be speculative. The guys with older cars that wanted bias tires have no excuses now. The bias selection will hurt crossover with the Pro guys, so it will be up to the older car guys to make this work for the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Agreed, as we'll never know for certain what would have happened without it or with a different choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
I will give my probably unpopular opinion on this spec tire! A bias tire gets voted in as the spec tire????? I think most of the people that voted for a bias tire won’t run majors, super tour races , or the runoffs. I think this is a silly decision to go to a bias tire as opposed to the radial tire. I am unfortunate enough to have very few decent tires laying around though as COVID prevented me from getting to the U.S. to compete this past year. Hopefully borders open soon so I can get back to running races and the Runoffs in 2021 Rick Payne
This is great! I’m excited!! I can now be fairly competitive on my tiny budget and I don’t have to change a thing but spend less money.
Both Bob Wright (FRP) and Peter West (Pacific F2000) were part of the FC Ad Hoc and agreed to adopt the tire decided upon by SCCA. They will have to speak for their respective series officially, but that is what was last represented to me. There are compromises to everything, but the most important point here is that everyone will be on the same tire. This will finally help to facilitate a true East-West Championship event and permit easy cross-over from pro to club events. In the long run it should likewise save FC competitors money and create an ecosystem for trickle down into the regional events.
As for costs, per the survey:
· 47% of the competitors were paying in excess of $1100 per set – this will save them $370 or more per set. That’s a BOGO deal
· 72% of the competitors were paying in excess of $1000 per set – this will save them $270 or more per set. That’s better than buy 3 get one free.
Its great that all of the series agreed.
The first wording we saw did not include regional events. This wording does.
I'm glad its across the board.
I've never driven on one of these. Does anyone have any experience they will share on how this compound compares to a R35B in various ambient conditions?
Looking back at the Hoosier chart I had from last year, they didn't even show an R60A compound as available in our sizes, so I'm wondering if anyone has actually tested these?
Thanks for any info.
A Region CAN in the Supps declare: Tires free ......in spite of there being a Spec Tire.
Years ago for a Sebring Regional I saw the words specifically applied to Club Ford in the Supps: Tires free. So I ran a set of sticky GY 160s instead of the Hoosier R60......and for a while my times were listed as the CF track record.
So lobby the snot out of your Regional Officials for the early race in your Region that comes after May 1st for a one time "Tires free" rule in the Supps.
It just might work........because Officials have lots of snot.......and who knows?....maybe some of 'em might realize from the points standpoint where everybody finishes for one race and a $12 trophy in the grand scheme of things isn't going to make that big of a deal by the end of the season and the good will they establish for people sort of stuck with a $1000 worth of tires is more immportant...
...maybe agree to a 5 second time penalty to finishing results for those not on R60s.......it won't hurt to bargain with 'em especially if you can get others who might be racing that same weekend to agree to it well before the Supps are published.
Lawyers and Real Estate agents realize that most anything is negotiable ......maybe an SCCA Regional Official - especially if they've got a lot of snot - might prove to be reasonable people in a "Club" .......hey as it stands right now it seems like even Election rules are not set in stone - wink wink
This is the same compound that was used for multiple seasons in FRP F2K, is the current F1600 and FE2 compound. It’s also used in other applications according to Hoosier. It responds well in all conditions I’ve run;!likely not as good as the 35 in colder conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by douglap1
Thanks for your effort John and all the other parties in the ad-hoc group. I feel this will help the class, more so if all the other groups run the tire. I look forward to racing with you guys again soon!
Wishful thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
All the cars that have sat in the garage for years will continue to sit in the garage. The bias ply was available to every single one of them and it didn't draw them out. The only thing that has changed is that the truly dedicated 2 liter campaigns now have to revert to an ancient tire design. Wooohoo! The class is selling itself now!
That's certainly one perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Livengood
I'm betting there will be more folks happy with the change than unhappy. Most of those in the unhappy camp aren't going to park their cars. Net result, the class isn't going to shrink even farther because of the tire change. There's (almost) nowhere to go but up!
I'm not trying to be contrarian, I just think it's silly to think that the aging and already non participating (as in actually getting a car on track) voter base of the SCCA has any valuable input on this subject.
I've said it before, and people have told me I am full of dookie about this (feel free to feel the same), but the SCCA should discontinue the class. They already went bust on F4, FE, you name it (they really like to beat dead horses). They can't manage the formula car classes that they have a true vested interest in, how are they to manage something that provides 3 entries on a good weekend? The best thing that could happen to FC is for stewardship that isn't tied down to a non-participatory base. FC barely made the basically irrelevant RunOffs this year (no offense to the participants, I watched eagerly), this despite the easiest qualifications required to participate in the history of the organization. What credibility does the SCCA even have in this regard? In case I didn't make it clear, I'd say just about none.
The radial is gone and the 20 "pro" guys that support the class now get to rebuild all their control arms just so they can continue to dominate the 30 SCCA guys who manage to drag their car out twice a year. I don't propose to know all the answers, in fact, the class is probably dead, but this tire nonsense is tripping over dollars to save pennies. It is classic political theater, nothing more, except for the dedicated campaigns who now have to adjust to a tire fit for 1985.
[QUOTE=
JohnLarue:
· 47% of the competitors were paying in excess of $1100 per set – this will save them $370 or more per set. That’s a BOGO deal
· 72% of the competitors were paying in excess of $1000 per set – this will save them $270 or more per set. That’s better than buy 3 get one free.[
I’ll make the assumption that Hoosier is not subsidizing our racing and are still going to make a profit on each tire they sell?
It would appear by the numbers that there was a lot of fat to trim that someone was enjoying.
With all of the competition eliminated and no longer bothering to make FC tires, how long will the price remain at $730?
Will Hoosier still make 35 radials any longer if I choose to run my car as an FX?
It is an interesting study in SCCA politics. A small group of people who were very insistent on the bias option, got organized, worked on the adhoc committee, and made sure that the outcome went their way. Many more people, assuming a radial tire was a no-brainer, just supported a spec tire option, without expecting a need to lobby strongly for the radial option. Those that seem most upset now, were silent for the past few months.
FWIW, I do not believe that modern cars will need all new suspension, any more than older cars needed all new suspension for radials.
It was a pretty strange decision by the people making decisions. It should have been a no-brainer.
Maybe someone from SCCA can explain the rational behind the decision not to use a modern tire? Maybe it makes sense to some but it doesn't to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Even the 35 compound has issues in cool conditions, at least on the radial carcass with a Citation. Ask Brandon Dixon why he struggled in this year's Runoffs race.Quote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
BTW, I favored a radial (mainly for its size consistency) for the spec tire, but either a bias or radial is, IMO, better than the "tire of the week" syndrome, which made tire choice the #1 consideration for any important race meeting.
IMO, the decision to go with the bias tire was based on 2 things in the hope of bringing out more small-budget competitors:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
o older cars not needing to modify suspension arms and setups, plus
o tire cost
As I said, I wanted it to be the radial, but the bias tire is much better than no spec tire at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
The decision was made over a series of meetings involving the Ad Hoc, FSRAC and CRB which were thorough and took many hours to complete. I cannot and will not try to explain the rationale of the groups, however If anyone would like to call me to discuss my personal thoughts on the subject I will be most happy to answer.
I am confident that everyone, those directly involved in the decision making on this matter as well as those who simply might post on the various web sites, want the FC class to grow and prosper. As a group we need to move forward to promote and grow the class; and let everyone know what a rush these cars really are.
Merry Christmas and a Better New Year to all.
John
.
Greg,Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
first off that small group of people as you say are taking time out of there own lives to try and better the class as a whole. As far as everyone wanting bias ply I can assure you that the group was split, some wanting bias and others wanting radials. The group also consisted of Bob Wright and Peter West the two pro series options currently available and they wanted what was best for the class as a whole.
In the end the ad committee didn’t get to make the final decision. It was taken out of our hands and decided on by SCCA.
I’ll just say to all those bitching about this tire, this may not fix the FC problem but at least there are some that are out hear trying to improve the class and help it along. Bottom line the SCCA doesn’t give a **** about our class or any class. In fact it’s not there job to grow a specific class. It’s the job of the community as a whole.
the reality was the bias was the cheapest option and also the 80% of the cars running in the class are on it. So while it may not be the most modern tire, who cares. It’s cheaper and will work just fine for what we need it to do.
Brian
Talk committees, politics, etc. ^^This^^ boils it all down to what matters. I'm also hoping this tire will be available to any racer in any club and hope that those running a non-scca series will join in from time to time.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianT1
I lobbied for the radial as one can see from my numerous posts here plus I emailed John LaRue, etc., detailing why I thought that was the best choice. However, as I also said, a bias spec tire is way better than no spec tire. So I can live with that decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Nothing in your post contradicted anything I said in mine, until you got to the 80% number. Clearly, if the goal was to get every FC car in the USA on the same tire, you cannot just include regional cars in your numbers, but need to include every FC car running in Pro, SuperTour, Majors, etc. I don’t know whether the division of entries between radials and bias is 60/40 or 40/60 but it sure is not 20/80. Aside from that, we agree that the SCCA process rewards those that participate in the process. In talking to several people I know that were shocked by the choice, they never took the bias option as a serious threat they needed to worry about. As I said, people that did not work towards pushing for the radial option, are now outraged. It is what it is. That so many of the regional guys have refused to even try the radials, or try other events without Formula Alphabet groups, indicates that they don’t care about good racing with bigger groups. They organized their politics and were successful in their quest to get their tire choice. Their dedication to this outcome can certainly not be considered a surprise to people who have been following along.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianT1
Spec tires can change. Maybe we should consider this Step 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Like you said, better than not making a decision.
I've been offline for a few days.. what'd I miss??
Based on the posts above, I can surmise a few things:
- A group of imperfect people made an imperfect decision they felt was best for the class, even if it went against their preference.
- The majority of them publicly stated they wanted a different option, but felt rather than benefiting the select FEW that are actually racing (and I can't emphasize "FEW" enough, especially at the pro and majors level) they chose a path they felt could possibly benefit the greater good.
- The same ones that kept telling people with older cars that a different construction wouldn't be nearly a significant change as they feared are complaining about having to change their cars.
- A tube frame car with a H-pattern gearbox NOW is outdated because of the tires they run on.
I don't know who needs to hear this, but I'm sorry you didn't get your way. I didn't get mine either. But the milk has been spilled so it's probably time to move on and start prepping for the class's next chapter.
Or you can buy an F4 car. I hear the budgets are low and you get tons of green flag laps.
In summary, the class has so few redeemable qualities that the tire doesn't matter.
There isn't a person in the world that attends an SCCA event purely for seat time. Poking myself in the eye is less torturous than a club race.
I'm not sure crapping on the class is productive, maybe I'm wrong. But if it has no redeeming qualities why are you even contributing to this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Livengood
Everyone craps on SCCA. Easy target. But every other series uses the SCCA rulebook as the basis for their own rules. Whatever your favorite series is, they've fine tuned their rules to please you.
Wright and West both run series with (different) spec tires and had some contribution to this decision. They obviously saw value in joining the effort.
Is it your opinion the class is dead because they didn't pick the right tire? There will be about a dozen opinions that agree with you that it wasn't the right tire - but they wouldn't agree on what is the right one.
We can piss and moan or move forward.
I'm planning on going racing, not having to worry if I picked the right tire, and saving $400+ each weekend.
I am not challenging you, other than for you to explain what you mean because I don’t understand who is the few and who is the majority. There were about 50 F2000 entries in FRP events last year, 15 at the Runoffs, a half dozen at the PIRC Super Tour event, so I presume that there was about a hundred total entries in FRP, Runoffs, Majors, and Super Tour events. In your summary, are those hundred the majority or the few? I see no “majority vs few”, so when I hear this reference I do not understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by CScharnow
Absolutely !!! My thoughts also.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
I wanted the radial, but the decision is made, and I'm racing in the FRP F2000 Series in 2021 no matter what tire FRP decides is right for them.
I will be sitting in my FC at Homestead in 2 weeks. First time in my car in nearly 9 years. Hope I don't make a fool out of myself. Anyway, back in 2012 my business was still recovering from the great recession and I just couldn't justify racing at that time. At that time I had been racing cars [stock cars FF, FSV and FC] nearly every year since 1972. For the last 9 years every year I've thought about getting back in but couldn't quite convince myself to pull the trigger. Well I finally decided this summer to make it happen. To the FC's community credit, your 35 for 35 had a lot to do with it. That being said, if I had not already decided to get back in this news of a spec tire would have done the trick. I like the fact that it just takes some decisions off the table. I like the fact that it levels the playing field. I also like the $$ savings. On the last point of savings. You might think that would have been the most important point for me since the money thing has held me from coming back for so long. Well, it isn't. I use a prep shop so the savings per weekend isn't substantial, maybe 6-8% per weekend. However, for the club racer that does his own deal it could be substantial, maybe as much as 20+%? Additionally, for that club racer is the thinking that he won't be at a disadvantage tire wise. I truly believe that this is going to bring out some guys that have been sitting on the sidelines. The spec tire is a great decision and I am thankful to all those that made it happen. Should it have been a different construction? Maybe, but you would have negated some of the $$ savings. Should it have been a different compound? Maybe, but I like personally like the idea of the R60. And as someone pointed out, I'm sure it can reviewed and adjusted as necessary in the future.
I was arguing in bad faith. I wasn't even remotely serious when I said the class has no redeemable qualities.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
You are correct, the SCCA is an easy target. The proof is in the pudding. You might note that the vast majority of FC track time is generated by cars that aren't participating in SCCA events. Yet, FC owners find themselves at the mercy of the SCCA rule book (as you correctly assessed). I'm sure there's a good Monty Python reference in there, but the point is that FC owners should stop letting the SCCA run the class into the ground. The cart is leading the horse.
Good question, my reference above was meant as "the majority of people on the committee" making the decision. Not the majority of people racing vs. not-racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
At the same time, and without me having the time nor desire to go back and look at the actual results, my perspective is that with the exception of one race at Pittsburgh this year it seemed like the pro series averaged about 6 entries. That's a well attended Majors race these days, too.
It is also well documented the various regional series are pulling decent numbers. But I get it, it's all relative because 10 FC cars is a good turnout now.
So there are people racing these cars, just not where we need them if we want to keep the class a Runoffs category (which is the topic of a whole other thread). We can get drawn into the semantics of definitions for "few" vs. "majority" but the bottom line is we are where we are and the changes are an attempt to make things better.
If we weren't using the SCCA rulebook we'd be using the British one. it's not like they came up with the formula stuff on their own - it all goes back to jolly 'ol...
I've long thought the classes should run themselves in some manner with minimal interference from the greater club. Just left and right lateral limits as guidance. Then there are no excuses. Screw up your class and they don't sanction it anymore.
I've also thought the Runoffs ought to be more like King's Royal or the Knoxville Nationals. All kinds of clubs run similar, but not identical rules for midgets and sprints. But once a year, they all race under that promoters rulebook. Come one, come all, winner take all, for what is recognized as the king of the hill championship for those classes.
Any thoughts on these numbers?
I guess not...
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 28, 2020 — Hoosier Tire will be back for the fourteenth consecutive year with Formula Race Promotions (FRP). A fixture in the FRP paddock, Hoosier Tire will again be the official tire supplier and the presenting partner in the 2021 Formula Race Promotions program. Set to continue with their exceptional trackside program, the relationship between FRP and Hoosier Tire provides an outstanding commitment of service and quality to the FRP competitor.
“We are very fortunate to have such a partner as Hoosier Tire. Their commitment to our series, support and trackside service is the best in the industry and that has only been strengthened by our long-term relationship,” explained Robert Wright. “We welcome them back for year fourteen, our biggest and most ambitious season to date, and look forward to their continued professionalism and support in the FRP program. As we’ve said many times; without Hoosier, we wouldn’t exist.”
For 2021, Hoosier will supply the same tire as 2020 for the F1600, F2000, F1000, RCFFS and Atlantic programs. Additionally, the new Eastern Pro 4 Challenge will be provided and utilize a specific Hoosier compound developed for that car. The FRP staff intends to rotate the F2000 compound back to the R60 during the year after competitors get a chance to use up their supply of R35B tires. The FC Classic group, introduced into the FRP lineup in 2020, provides all SCCA legal FC cars the opportunity to join FRP in a more relaxed racing opportunity and can use either the new Club spec Hoosier bias tire or the Championship Class radial tire.
Wright added, “2021 will be a good year. We have a lot of momentum heading into a new season of competition and a great schedule with a mix of old favorites and new venues. We can’t wait to get back to the paddock and see our first green flag in April.”
Please remember that all series news, information, results, photos, and PR will be communicated through our social media pages listed below. Be sure to tag FRP in any and all posts to help us have the ability to promote you.
---------------------------------------------------------------
So that'll be interesting to see the effects of the bias 60 or the radial 60.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
So FRP is not using the SCCA spec tire and are sticking with the Radial but adjusting the compound to R60?
Actually not sure what the effects will be other then less cross over from FRP racers to race in FC at SCCA events. I see this as WORSE for the class overall rather then having an open tire. Maybe it’s just me thinking this way but a serious FRP racer/prep team will be less likely to want to put on different tires & race SCCA events. I’m not saying they won’t do it, just that they will for sure think twice about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing