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Art,
Thx for the heads up. I can see where my Pinto can make some EZ HP with a new exhaust header. Are the manifolds a mandated part or are they open to custom fabbing ? Mine is heavy and does not appear to help with exhaust scavenging.
As a complete newb, there are a couple of decades of Pinto engine development that I've got to get up to speed on.
First off I should say I no longer have a dog in the hunt. However many of my friends do. The following are my opinions based on my experiences. Here goes. Although the Honda is not a done deal yet (I don't think) I really don't know why another engine is needed. First the club cars won't convert from the Pinto as their cars aren't worth it. Also most club cars are racing for the enjoyment and can I say more cost constrained. As mentioned earlier in this post their appears that the Zetec has gained HP ground over time and there isn't an agreement over how to handle this yet. How do you plan to bring in another engine and not have horse power creep happen again. Truthfully, no matter what engine you are talking about there has always been some horsepower creep involved. Adding another engine only adds more complexity to handle. Back to the Pinto for a minute. I have successfully for the past few years always found stock junkyard Pinto 2.0L engines without expending very much energy. I never found a shortage of lower end pieces, blocks or heads that were supposedly claimed. Some of these had standard reuseable bores. The allowance of many of the aftermarket rods, pistons, heads, cams & valve train and lightened flywheel have made it a costly upgrade for and Pinto that has been sitting for several years. I never heard how those pieces got approved. My point is look at what I just said and realize that sooner or later all this will happen for the Zetec if it hasn't already. Adding more engines only adds complexity.
Unfortunately, like much of racing, engine costs are really a matter of what level you want to play at. If you want to run a Pinto and keep it at top national performance level it won't take too many rebuilds to pay for a Zetec. Pretty much pay me now or pay me later.....
So if a new engine is incoming with no input here's a few hypothetical/rhetorical questions.
Is the F2000 series going to allow a new motor? They seem to have awfully good parity with all the Zetecs.
No one is complaining about Zetec vs. Zetec parity. Why would a new engine get thrown in to create a parity issue that doesn't exist.
We have enough of a squabble about Pinto vs Zetec parity. How or why do we think we should try to create parity between 3 engines.
So if Honda is seen as the savior of open wheel racing and they're going to bring new life to the industry don't we seen Honda subsidizing the FF conversions? Beside doing the leg work to get it in the SCCA and sell the conversion packages I don't see how they're providing any incentives to make the switch. 15k to convert a modern VD! If they really want to provide the racers a reason to switch they should seriously discount the conversion cost (1/2 off). Their profits are high enough that they can take a hit on the 100 or so conversion kits they've sold. This is a marketing exercise anyways, so it's all sunk cost no matter how you spin it. Trying to recoup some of that expense by charging the club racers who are supplying free advertising is silly. I sure don't want it. I'm fine with my Pinto. I'll live in the dark ages. Oh and btw, if anyone needs parts I've got blocks and heads and cranks for sale. No supply issue here.
I think Dennis makes a great point. If you're going to do a serious campaign there really is no choice to make. However, I'm guessing there are a few people on here, myself included, who would be interested in running some national races or even the occassional pro race if they knew they had a more competitive package. I bought my Pinto knowing full well it would be a solid regional car. But with the Runoffs basically in my backyard next year I am willing to give it a shot because they might not ever again be easier to get to.
We are delusional to think the Zetecs will change. If you look at the pro series there are approximately 25+ Zetecs and 1 Pinto at every race. I don't know the numbers for nationals but I would bet they are similar. It's amazing to me that such a small group wants to rule the roost by campaigning against this upgrade.
This line in the sand stance is really only hurting people like Chris in the pro series, myself, and more than a few others who are willing to spend a little bit of money to hopefully make their car a tad more competitive against the people who are already racing in those series. You're not punishing the Zetecs, you're punishing those people.
I'm not posting to get into the semantics of how we got here, what's happening in FF or any possible future engines, but simply to state that by voting against the Pinto upgrade we will end up exactly where we are now... down on power to the Zetecs.
IMO, the issue here is that there is ZERO agreement on what must be done to create parity between the into and the Zetec. I suggest that you form a formal committee with interested parties on both sides and make a PLAN instead of beating on this horse on the internet. Make sure that you contact members of the FSRAC and the CRB to get their buy in.
This is the ONLY way to make something constructive happen. So stop the internet BS and go to WORK.
I'd also make mention that if your going to try and make a serious racing effort, the cost of the Zetec is really only the tip of the iceberg dollar wise....
If adding the Honda, why not also allow the current USF package with the Mazda engines in as well...what's one more engine package??? Written sarcastically!
There has been nothing put in front of the FSRAC or CRB to date concerning any new engine offerings for FF or FC. As with any rule change, such would be put out for member input before a recommendation were to be made and a final decision rendered by the BOD.
Get to work and earn some money so you can go racing next season!
I converted my Pinto RF99 to Zetec 2 years ago because I got tired of rebuilding Pinto
engines. Having run both a fresh well tuned Nation/Pro Pinto and a "blueprinted" Zetec in the same chassis with the same wing settings at the same tracks I can honestly say that for me there was next to no difference between them in top speed or lap times, given the same set up and driver. Chris Livengood ran a narrow track Pinto close to the front of the field in the Pro series more than once with a less than fresh Pinto in it, against a field of Zetecs.
The Zetec does have more low end torque giving it more area under the curve. It is much easier to gear and drive than a Pinto because of the broader power band. With proper care and feeding it lasts a lot longer between rebuilds. A good Pinto has a tad more pull at the top end of the power band, is a whole lot easier to troubleshoot when it misbehaves, but needs more frequent engine work.
There is speed to be found in other parts of the car too. Most of the Pro cars run low drag ceramic wheel bearings and low friction (and sometimes short lived) trick LD200 builds. Both are performance advantages, both legal, both expensive.
The easiest way to find speed in one of these racecars - take out some wing, put a good set up and a new set of tires on it, and strap in a fast driver.
Respectfully, Tom Drake - Alley Cat Racing
I'm new to FC, hoping to pick up a pinto powered car soon (budget limited) It seems to me the solution is relatively simple. Require a dyno sheet be submitted with a power cap at 160, and restrict legal weights for parity from there.
Then guys can do what they want to get there. And the guys who don't care about competing nationally can continue to play where they are at now.
You would have to seal the engine to prevent tweaking after the dyno pull. With a Pinto that is a non-starter, since they need work so often. And camshaft timing, jetting, etc., etc. could be altered after sealing, giving more HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorCade
Peak HP also not the issue as top pintos have more of it, they are about 10 down on peak torque though and have less area under both the hp and torque curves in the usable rpm range on each engine. Still working on a solution up here in the northwest. Stay tuned, will post when we come up with something that works well.
What Dave said........Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorCade
Look at the FF section to. The discussions on Pinto-Zetec or Kent-Honda will go on forever.
The reality is there will never be "parity". Too many differences in the cars. Most Zetec/Honda cars are newer so they benefit from better geometry, etc.
Zetec/Honda owners probably have a bigger budget which really translates into more seat time and better driving. We can blame the motors, but really?
I have a 94 VD Pinto. When (if ever :o ) I drive the car to the end of its capabilities , then I'll save up and upgrade. I'd certainly like to see more flexibility in replacement parts (for cost reasons) for the Pinto, but I'm not going to chase parity when the reality is I'd still be slower with 200hp at this point.... I have a lot to learn....
Have fun and learn. Putting the "blame" on a motor or lack of "parity" is what keeps cars parked and people disappointed. Race the other Pintos and have fun. :thumbsup:
Oh, don't worry, I'm with you on actual parity never being perfect. I understand the comments about not being able to seal the motors.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Alternately, I do think it's reasonable to allow the pinto guys some additional mods to bring them up to or closer to the zetec level. If guys don't want to do the mods, ok, not a big deal. They're no worse off than they are now. (competing against cars that outclass them) But as more cars get built up to the new standard, I think the grid sizes will increase. We may not all be competitive, but we all want to believe that we have a shot.
off topic: I have a lot to learn too - first formula car for me. However, I'll be at NASA Western Champs next weekend at Laguna Seca in my Elise. (I've got the SoCal regional championship locked up at this point... yay!) I'm pretty used to competing against cars that I don't stack up against "by the numbers." Besides the obvious (more speed) the big reasons I'm interested in formula is learning A-aero, and B-gearing setups.
All that said, I think it's easiest and cheapest for the field (not the individual) to simply add modification legality to the pintos. Port/polish? Stronger valve springs? Allowing twin weber sidedrafts? (600 bucks). The home mechanic can do all of those things. The guy who pays a shop isn't worried about costs much anyhow. Anything that makes the car competitive for less than 1000 bucks is cheap, as far as racing goes. Less than tires...
There's also the possibility of allowing weight reduction for the pintos. Yes, I know some of us are big guys - me too. But maybe some combo of more power, less weight?
my $0.02. Cheers!
...so all the pinto guys agree to use the "Eslinger" kit Frog mentioned (5.7 rods and Wisco pistons). We all get a bit more power and improved ring life. Most of the old chassis can't stay with the newer cars anyway so harm done. I'm sure I've raced against a few long rod motors in my time--I mean when I can walk someone in T1 at Atlanta and they pull out 200 yards on the following straight, well it's not all exit speed out of seven if you know what I mean. No sour grapes, it's just for fun. I haven't done it yet but...:o
That's always the formula. Power/weight..Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorCade
Scaled my car last weekend for the first time. Came in @ 1255 with my fat arse and 5gals onboard. So if I burn all fuel I'd be at 1220.
Can't figure how the previous owner made weight - he was probably 50lbs lighter than me....
If that extends life then yes....Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerDave51
The great "unparity" IMO is this. When rebuilt, both cars make similar power. Pinto more top, Zetec more torque. But that's a point in time. Start of life.
Where it all goes wrong is that the Pinto gets "down on power" much faster. So there are more Pintos being raced "down on power" simply because of $$$ and the lack of desire to rebuild for every race. Prior to the Zetec everyone rebuilt off season and lost power all year long..
So anything that will extend the life and maintain th power - should be readily acceptable. If you start increasing the power people will call foul - and rightly so.
Rings, pistons, pins, rods, etc should be open - as long as they meet weight.
I think that if you get the head done on a pinto with a loose bottom end (~2000 mi) then you actually have more power than if your whole engine is rebuilt. Don't have the dyno data for this, but the lap times were certainly better. Still short of the zetec.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
So as was mentioned previously by myself, we have been looking at evidence of disparity between the two packages all season in NWFC and some ideas are starting to be spitballed around here as to where we go next.
I think we have the possibility of having a good pinto (previous elite build, ~151 peak on their dyno) able to run on a dyno back to back with a zetec.
can test a bigger carb. What else should we test?
I'll set up some sort of crowd funding if people are interested in getting some dyno data on this and other stuff, but we're not going to pay for the whole thing ourselves.
Interesting thoughts about the pinto power losses. I'm also on a beer budget and will not be rebuilding every season, much less mid-season.
I do think anything being done must have reliability in mind to keep the original intent of the class intact.
The other issue that's been raised, but not as explicitly is the newer chassis cars have aerodynamic and (likely) handling advantages. A one-for-one power match is probably not going to help the pinto cars all that much. That's why it seems (to me, anyway)important that it be both. But I'll counter my own point here and mention that a weight rule should be decoupled from what motor is being used and tied to chassis year. Otherwise sneaky folks might figure out that they can run pinto power and less weight in a modern chassis.
As for a testing plan...I think we'd need to first have the buy in of SCCA that something needs to change. If we can get their agreement on that, then it'll make some sense to start a test plan and see what we can develop. Incentive on their side would be more participation in the majors. I know I would. But currently, why would I bother? There's no chance. The oldest cars in the grid are circa 2000 and they're not winning either. 2006 or newer to compete. Too rich for the intent of the class.
Geeze. If you're running a Pinto, you're vintage. If there's a bunch of engine options out there, let the Zetec guys fight over them. Why this constant fight to stay relevant in an organization that's clearly moved on? I don't mind running with any club, and I don't mind bitching about the occasional dumbass decision, but this horse left the barn 10 years ago.
If someone needs to rebuild a pinto every season that means you are putting 24 hrs plus on the motor - that's 10 race weekends, plus practice days. With that kind of budget, why is he running Pintos in regionals?
Well up here in the NW (NWFC) we have been running a 40 lbs weight penalty in the Ztec. Eight Races in its 6 ztec wins and 2 pinto wins. So looks like a weight reduction for the Pintos is in order and a reacessment of our scoring matrix is in order. Basically we want to attract new drivers who believe that they can compete for the overall season points championship in a well driven 95 VD Pinto.
I'm a new FC racer just entering the class in a 99 Mygale (Pinto), which was previously another racer's backup car (ie, not being actively raced). Since I think I am basically the target of this discussion, here is my $.02:
- I am 30 years old. I haven't owned a carbeurated car in years, and 99% of my generation never has. Racing a carb'd car is not attractive to me at all, but I can't afford a Zetec conversion.
- I do this on a budget. If I had the money I would race in FB instead, the bike engine is much more in line with my idea of 'racing technology'
- I don't much care if I am a second or so slower than the front runners, but I don't want to struggle to stay in the pack.
- I recently lost an engine, and it was cheaper to buy another prepped engine than to try and find parts or donor engines, which is stupid. The fact that original Pinto parts are unavailable and we aren't allowed to use most of the aftermarket is frustrating to me.
- Racing is expensive, and I struggle to afford to be in this class. If I could gain reliability, even without added power, I would be happy to do it. $500 means I skip one race or run one on old tires. Totally worth it to me. Especially in the case where I am spending hundreds of dollars on inferior obsolete parts, and the ones that would actually improve my engine are 1/2 the price.
- I am a home builder. Working on the car myself is part of the experience for me. A carb change requires a retune which is an issue for me, but a major rod/piston/cam change would also require a retune, so either way I'll have to deal with it, but still would be happy.
All that said, the biggest point for me is the cost of the Zetec. If I could switch to a Zetec for a reasonable cost I would do it immediately. Newer engine, better reliability, modern technology is all something I would love. The (mandatory) Quicksilver intake and related parts cost more than my whole car. If I could go buy a used Zetec, refresh it, and buy or make a reasonable priced conversion, that would keep me in this class a lot longer. Telling me I have to go buy a ridiculously expensive conversion as mandated by the rules not so much. Honestly if I had realized that was the case when I bought the car I would have looked a lot closer at FM or waited until I could afford FB.
The only reason I am in an FC is the class participation in the NW. If not for that I would have gotten something else for sure. An affordable Zetec option would change that (or other modern engine). A reliable, competitive Pinto is something I would be glad to spend a small amount of money on, but it's not the solution IMO.
Patman,
I have raced a pinto in the F2000 championship series and yes, the zetecs are faster coming out of the corners so on technical tracks, they have an advantage. Find a good engine builder who can build a reliable pinto. If you do not have the $$ for a zetec and would convert just because of reliability, I would not.
I only drive a couple times a year and am not a quick driver at all. My seat time is very limited as my budget is. I will tell you I see plenty of zetec engines letting go around me as mine has had absolutely no engine problems for years except a cracked cam that let go which had nothing to do with anything on the track or running condition.
I would save some $$ a little at a time if you feel the zetec is your final option but I will tell you that not until they allow new rods into the zetec would I think about it. The zetec is not the answer as it runs now. Those engines were not meant to run like that either and as some last a very long time, I have seen plenty go up in smoke. I would like a zetec too but my brother builds my engines so I am very lucky. The zetec also has some parts that are not able to be found for rebuilds and I believe that is being looked in to. So hold on a bit and keep up with what is going on with zetecs. That's just my 2 cents.....
Oh yeah, and maybe SCCA will allow a long rod and lighter piston soon for reliability also.
Get a Pinto with the good rods (Crower IIRC) and the forged pistons (can't remember who makes them). Keep the revs to about 6800 and it will last a very long time if put together properly. As far as carburetor, look at it as something to learn how to tune and enjoy the experience. There is more to life than just letting the computer do it.;):thumbsup:
Took the words out of my mouth Steve. If the carburetor presents a challenge, then I'd say buy something like a miata or a kart, because the adjustability of an FC is going to drive you nuts.
There's so many contradictions in that post I was puzzled as to where to start to answer them, so just chalked it up to inexperience.
I don't get the whole issue with donor engines. These are limited prep engines - and that means that the way to an advantage comes via painstaking preparation in reducing internal losses. That takes many hour AND appropriate experience to start. Even with the parts of the blown motor next to junkyard parts, do you know WHY the little changes were made to them? What about the stuff you can't see?
Now that Zebecs are being rebuilt and blueprinted the same concept applies, but probably with diminishing returns, because they learned a few tricks between 1972 and 1992.
Don't know why you would want the original pinto parts anyway. The only ones you need are the block and crank. Everything else is available as an approved aftermarket part, rods, pistons, rings, head, cam, flywheel. Heck if you're running regionals and don't anticipate a teardown there's even aftermarket cranks. There's a TON of parts for sale here on Apexspeed every year.
I have 25 hrs on my semi-homebuilt pinto right now. I get a pro re-build and then do my own bottom ends for the next two, and just send the head in for freshening. So a pro build every three. For a lot of us that would be one every 10 years - and I've never had high leak down as a need for a re-build - it's usually low oil pressure or something else.
Heck, you're relatively close to Portland and pretty easy to just drop the thing off at Ivey or Loyning. Spend some time picking brains and you'll figure out that for regional level racing there's nothing wrong with the Pinto.
Guys,
My comments were not complaining about my situation or anything like that. I have had a few growing pains in this class, mostly because I had some incorrect assumptions about the car I bought, but that is beside the point. I'm sorry if I came off that way, it was not my intended point at all.
I was just trying to give perspective to the fact that to my generation, a 40 year old carbureted engine that costs several thousand dollars to rebuild is not something anyone is excited about. There is a reason the average driver in this class is older, and it isn't all because of Xboxes or something.
IMO its because most people my age aren't going to pay ~$20k+ for a car with a completely outdated and unappealing engine. Heck most people my age or younger don't even know what a Pinto is.
I think at this point we're way past the 'all you young people need to learn carburetors' sentiment. I know enough about carbs to get by, but it isn't really useful knowledge. No car will ever be produced with a carburetor again. On that same note, these are 150Hp cars.
A 2L engine struggling to be reliable at 150HP is just ridiculous. My other car is a Lotus Elise, with a 1.8L Toyota engine that revs to 8500RPM and is dead reliable at 190HP. That car has over 5000 track miles on it (plus street miles), and I expect at least that many more without any engine issues or rebuilds. From what I understand Honda engines are even better. If I made a mistake assuming the Zetec is in that same class I apologize, but that is the level of expectation that I have for an engine.
So again looking at this from growing up with modern 4-cylinder engines, it is hard to justify the Pinto. Just my humble opinion of course, but one that I think a lot of people share, and is at least somewhat relevant to this discussion.
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by patman
However, it's an engine making about 75% more power than it arrived with. That's why reliability is questionable compared to new stuff.
If your Lotus was making 332HP, naturally aspirated with same cam, valves and tb size, it would take a ton of work and wouldn't be terribly reliable either.
Nobody really likes any engine that costs thousands for a re-build, but consider where those costs lie. On my last re-build it was $1200 for disassembly, cleaning, and inspection, $1200 for re-assembly, and $1200 for the Dyno tune and break-in. Add in $600 for shipping and parts were just a few hundred - valve springs, shims, gasket set, bearings, rings, belts, and a clutch disk.
It doesn't matter what technologies are used in your engine if costs are dominated by labor.
Occasionally if you are unlucky enough to require a new crank, rods, and oil pump or distributor re-build (especially all at once) you're screwed, but that's not usually the case.
Can you do all of those yourself? Sure. It's not rocket science, and the last pro re-build left you most of the instructions you need in the old parts. The things that are going to affect your final horsepower are going to be ring prep and the dyno tune, so if you don't mind being 5 HP down, you can save $4200. The risk is the catastrophic failure if you get something wrong because you don't have a developed process and checklist for your home-build.
Everything is available from Pegasus, BAT, Arnie, and Jay.
Try troubleshooting a Pinto and a Zetec at the track. Carbs and points can be replaced in under an hour if you're in a pinch. The whole system is unbelievably simple. Once it is setup to function properly it's pretty much a non issue. And if there is a problem there's only about 12 things that can go wrong. Don't knock the Pinto until you've learned to work on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by patman
PS. this is coming from a guy who had the same sentiments and now after being thru all the issues of a Pinto I wouldn't give it up.
I like this guy already. :thumbsup: I'm also a Lotus Elise guy, so maybe biased? I've got about 20K track miles on mine (and counting), and 35K more on the street (no more gonna happen there!) on my original engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by patman
I'm ok with carb tuning, but would honestly prefer to be playing with a DOHC FI 4 cyl but budget doesn't allow for it. So my focus is on the aero/open wheel experience. Which promises to be awesome.
I recognize that to some of you guys who've been in this for a while that some of our questions may have been asked ad infinitum. But the answers aren't always as clear to us newcomers.
Cheers,
Cade
Did anyone ever dyno a (all other things equal) 5.7 rod pinto to look at the power differences with a standard rod?
With the way we gear real race cars, we spend most of our time at those upper RPM limits like you 1.8L lists (and higher), something you won't do in that street based car. This is the cause of most enginewear and needed rebuilds sooner rather then later.Quote:
Originally Posted by patman
Look at the motorcycled powered race cars.
In the designed application, yes, the engine can do very high RPM's, but it rarely spends any time there in it's use. We gear the F/1000's (and Sportracers) to maximise the engines power as much as possible and thus, long portions of any race are spent at max to near-max RPM.
This is what causes engine wear and failures. It has nothing to do with an engine that uses a Carb ! If the Pinto and others were held to a lower RPM, they would last much longer too.
As the Zetec's RPM's have been allowed to climb, it's service length has decreased.
In my opinion this whole thought process with new motors is flawed for the majority of club racers. Yes Zetec/Honda need less rebuilds but huge upfront costs has equated to less participation in FF and FC. The reality on the track is you have to have a Zetec to be competitive and except at Daytona the same true for the Honda vs Kent.So why the new motors? Manufacturers,Engine builders and big budget racers like it and it's great if you can afford it.. Concept is great ,the reality not so good for participation. FC and FF have seen lesser car counts even with these engine maintenance savings. FC is dead in club racing because of this. FF will be dead soon as well. Now FF has a spec tire that is cheaper and last longer let's just see if that equates to larger fields. Many FF competitors have complained about the lack of adjustability with their cars to be able to use the new radial spec tire without sizeable investments in a arms.The reduction to 15 classes will kill FC,FM,FA,FE and eventually FF. Soon FE,FC and FM will be combined into one class.Now the tin tops will have all the run groups and there will be one open wheeled run group. Then this will kill FV. What FV driver is happy running with FA cars? All these cars if they have a Pinto or a Kent will be vintage eligible soon and SCCA will have no open wheeled cars and loose 20-25% of their current entries. I hope the Regions can still put on events with 25% fewer entries.It is kind of depressing but the kneejerk reactions of the governing body of SCCA has made many competitors lambast the club whenever anything doesn't fit their personal situation. I am guilty as well. Not a great outlook for open wheel classes in my opinion.
Mike, surely you remember the engine and car builders coming to the Runoffs builders' meetings with the CRB/BoD to complain about a lack of blocks. Ford was all la-la-la-we-can't-hear-you until Honda came up with the Fit option, then suddenly cried foul and announced they'd have more blocks cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Sauce
Stan- Not the point. Plus I never had a problem getting blocks. I don't think anyone did. Again vested interest not necessarily in the best interest of club racing competitors. So what numbers increase in participation do we have to show for it? The Kent engine is still powering more FF's in Europe and Australia and the US and Canada but who wants to run an inferior engine. In England you have 3 times the numbers of cars with Kents than with the Duratec, Zetec or ECO-boost show up.US numbers have gone down since the Honda. Nothing against Honda or the Zetec or any so called solutions. I just wish they were really solutions. The reason SRF and SM are the largest classes are because it simple ,cost effective and the competitors know that some vested outside interest will be considered last when trying to find a solution for a parts problem.
Maybe you are just running with the wrong club?Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Sauce
We all want longer life and your assertions IMO are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by kea
So, here's the question:
The F1k guys are talking about rev limits, etc.
Has anyone studied the power change when re-timing to power band to lower RPMS?
What if a higher lift cam was used with a rev limiter?
Could we change gearing, drop the RPM range and get similar speeds with increased longevity?
I know everyone always wants to increase RPM because other factors (like cam) are limited. But if the limiting factors were changed....
So where can you run with another club? Canada? I am in Texas. We use to have 20 car FC fields and 15 car FF fields not that long ago. Now we have no FC cars and only 3-4 FF with Hondas and rarely do we see any Kent powered FF's. Not much fun running with 3 cars. I have 4 FF's in my shop that could be raced. Not much interest because of the cost to have the best engine package.Quote:
Originally Posted by RSS
I've been though this many times before... and continue to be disgusted at the upfront costs to build our engines. This time, I'm looking at trying to build a FC legal Zetec to stick in an RFR. The $12K on top of a brand new crate engine is insanity, and I just won't do it. Until the rules are fixed, if I ever run with the club again, it will only be in FS.
The club needs to have a clean slate scrub at the formula rules and classes. Pear down the dead wood and start anew. Reminds me of the Peter Sellers movie called Being There with Chauncey Gardner. "In the spring..." and "in the fall...". Engine parity in FC (and for that matter in FF - nevermind the insanity in FB) between very vintage and modern ECU injected engines is nonsense. So why be subject to all that in order to play the game? If the cost to play that game is more than the value received, we will simply choose not to play. As Caroll Smith used to say, "Other Sports Beckon."
Look at F4, and the future effect that will have at the Club level. Where does it go? FC? Why not open up the rules to allow all cars to have up to a 6-speed? Why not have one size restrictor for almost any 2 liter straight 4? Times have changed, and the rules need to reflect that.
I thought that was more like the entire cost of converting to zetec and part of the point of the zetec engine was to curb crazy engine development costs. Is it really $12k just to build the engine?Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLav
Edit: nevermind, looked into it and I guess that seems about right