December preliminary CRB minutes posted. Looks like they received a lot of comment on the HST changes.
https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_fi...es%2011.13.pdf
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December preliminary CRB minutes posted. Looks like they received a lot of comment on the HST changes.
https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_fi...es%2011.13.pdf
Instead of the old expression > The squeaking wheel gets the grease.
It's........
The squeaking wheel gets some WD-40.
Thank you to all the people who wrote and made the SCCA realize they'd made a mistake
I wrote a letter and inquired about the process for approving the actions and got the reply…. Thank you for your letter. Doesn’t really apply to the letter I sent but it’s a convenient way for them to file my letter in the circular receptacle…
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for posting John. Their comments show that at least they read both my letters so that's a positive. Fingers crossed they do something.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nesbitt
I normally race CF in Regionals, so I didn't think of this until I was putting SARRC stickers on the FF today. I guess we don't need Super Tour stickers on our cars anymore.
Team, I just read Andrew Abbotts letter and he mentioned that the FV community has been having internal conversations and coming to an agreement on how to keep the class heathy. This is excellent.
My question - FF needs to do the same. I know a few drivers are paying attention to this thread, but hundreds are not. We need to connect with those fine folks as well. Does anyone know of a list/path/way of tying us all together so we can have an open and honest conversation about how to get the average number of major entries up? A series of video conferences to hash it out? There are so many cars sitting on the sidelines. I'd like to help us understand why and what we can do about it. Do we need some rule changes? Is it only due to the rain light (that topic keeps coming up here)? Do we need to make our own informal/grass roots Kent class that runs within the class and bring our own trophies to distribute to the Kents (us Honda guys can pass the hat amongst ourselves to pay for the trophies)? Lets get brave and creative.
Offer - if its the rain light that is keeping you from doing three majors per year, I'll make this deal with you - I'll buy you a rain light if you promise to do three majors in 2025. If you do three, you keep it forever. If you take the deal but don't do three, you have to mail it back to me, along with $50. PM me to take the offer.
Great post!!Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I will make a few suggestions for whatever they might be worth.
First, rule changes rarely make an impact on participation/entries; rules are an excuse not to race. The rules have never been perfect and never will be. They weren't perfect when you first started racing and wouldn't miss a weekend, they aren't now. Rules stability is what builds longevity. You have a good balance in FF at the moment with the Kent and Honda; I would be very cautious messing with that. Tires are very reasonable and a competitive season can be completed for a fraction of what is being spent in karting ala Mr. Rivard.
If you can find the presentation that Frank Schwartz made at one of the National Conventions on growing classes, take the time to watch it. He and David Daughtery brought B-Spec back from the ashes; our formula classes are much stronger at this time than BS was when they jumped on board. He tries to grow the community and have everyone supporting the class. You need lots of cheerleaders, social media engagement (lots of positive posts not ones fussing about what is wrong) and comradery at the track.
I "tried" to engage some of his teachings in FC and we had great success in 2021 (30 cars at Runoffs IIRC). When we stopped the social media engagement and email chains the entries dropped.
Also, try to focus on a set of races to attend. It is difficult to include the west coast; we found that out last year. In 2025 FC is considering focusing on the following races:
May 3-4 Pitt Race - SCCA Majors
June 6-8 Road America - June Sprints
July 12-13 Ozarks - SCCA Majors
Aug 9-10 Mid-Ohio - SCCA Regional (FF/FV/F6 receive Majors points/participation)
(Chicago Region has yet to make a final decision on the format; FF/FV/F6 racers should be weighing in and contacting the Chicago Region Board to let them know if you want to be included.)
If you can concentrate entries at several events it will increase the "fun factor" and help to increase interest.
If I can assist, let me know.
John
[QUOTE=RideMore;670170]Team, I just read Andrew Abbotts letter and he mentioned that the FV community has been having internal conversations and coming to an agreement on how to keep the class heathy. This is excellent.
My question - FF needs to do the same. I know a few drivers are paying attention to this thread, but hundreds are not. We need to connect with those fine folks as well. Does anyone know of a list/path/way of tying us all together so we can have an open and honest conversation about how to get the average number of major entries up? A series of video conferences to hash it out? There are so many cars sitting on the sidelines. I'd like to help us understand why and what we can do about it. Do we need some rule changes? Is it only due to the rain light (that topic keeps coming up here)? Do we need to make our own informal/grass roots Kent class that runs within the class and bring our own trophies to distribute to the Kents (us Honda guys can pass the hat amongst ourselves to pay for the trophies)? Lets get brave and creative./QUOTE]
Is it possible to start with a list of clubs, championships and organizations that offer FF and the number of entrants. Can we start with a sticky topic in the FF: General Discussion forum and add "Formula Ford Clubs, Organizations and Championships" Add in high level information such as class offerings, basic rules, general area of the country, tracks, typical grid size and a link to more information (website, Facebook). it would be nice if the data input could follow a fixed format (subject to change).
Excellent thoughts.
My only observation from afar would be to band together ALL open-wheeled participants for the greater good… even if there’s some subsets going on within the full group.
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. -- Benjamin FranklinQuote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Exactly… and Ben went on to build *real success* in the dime store field. :ha:
And don't forget the eponymous Benjamin. An essential if one is into hookers and blow.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Or so I am told. :D
Decided it best to not reply so am glad I didn’t make this post. ;)
Team, per the encouragement here -
I just created a Facebook group called "Formula F USA" in hopes of finding drivers/car owners that are not on Apex Speed.
I am not a Facebook person, or a social media guy, but I feel compelled to do what I can even if its clumsy. Any advice and or help would be very appreciated.
I have no idea if Facebook is "the" place, but its "A" place to find and connect people. Please tell me what more I can do, and how to do it if you know.
I created two different views of the 2025 Majors schedule for small formula - attached here. One by conference the other by date. There are 31 events total. To get the 5.0 we need to stay Runoffs eligible it means 155 total entries per year, per class. I think that not enough to stay HST relevant, bit its the Runoffs rules.
Attachment 113375Attachment 113376
Team, per encouragement here -
Set up a Zoom call where we can all meet to discuss how to improve small formula participation. At he moment its an open brainstorming. We'll figure it out as we go. Starts tomorrow night and weekly for 20 weeks. We can extend it to our hearts content.
Thursdays at 9pm eastern time. Open to all small formula folks.
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us05web.zoom.us/j/82013141123?pwd=6fYy6kZCrpFsUTp9IyE2YweV8a3HBw.1
Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123
Passcode: G5G7wm
Tony,Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
I am the Admin of the Formula Vee Racing USA group. If you aren't a Facebook guy & need help with it, or think it may help the overall smallbore openwheel run group, definitely reach out & perhaps racers could coordinate since it affects both classes.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/formulaveeracingusa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
Thanks Matt! Just PM'd you to take you up on your offer for guidance!
Great work, Guys.
Tell Ya what… if anyone gets some steam going for a combined Formula car collective, and wants help on a name, logo, text, whatever, from someone who’s done decades of that, let me know. Fee-free.
My only Ask is my not investing days into something that’s on a whim. If you’re committed, so will I be.
I am kinda partial to this one..... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...GgYClq_-aHyg&s
Is that of your creative brilliance, Matt?
ha... nah, that is just the brilliance from the FRP media guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Thanks Tony. I hope you don't mind that I posted this to the SCCA F600 & FModified facebook page.Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
https://www.facebook.com/groups/360619197459057/
Team, reminder that the first Zoom meeting is tonight at 9pm eastern. We've been coached by some FV and FC people who have been on the same mission but with a three lap head start on us. Given that advice: Our goal for tonight is to decide the next step or two that we should make to increase total 2025 major entries by at least 31 (so we meet or exceed the 5.0 average entry requirement). We have two ideas we'd like to propose to the group. And we'll see what ideas you folks have as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
Nice work, Tony. :greenflag:
Surf to the zoom website. On the top right is a button that says "Join". right next to it is a drop down - pick "Use meeting ID". From there it should ask for the meeting ID then the password. Once completed you should be in.Quote:
Originally Posted by RideMore
Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123
Passcode: G5G7wm
Team,
I will post meeting notes tomorrow. It was well attended and very productive. We all learned a lot. One of my action items is to publish the following email address. For those not on the call, you'll learn the importance of the email address tomorrow when we publish the meeting notes here.
formulafusa.gmail.com Note: all lower case
First Zoom meeting notes – please at least read the short action item list at the bottom
Big picture notes:
- 22 participated
- From the start all agreed that increasing participation in 2025 was THE topic of the meeting
- The meeting stayed very focused, productive, and friendly the entire 2 hours
- An amazingly knowledgeable and helpful group of people
- We made serious progress and agreed on a short-term plan to increase participation in 2025
A few details:
- CRB member John LaRue shared the details of the SCCA’s decision of why to not have small formula participate in most Hoosier Super Tour (HST) events.
- There is strong support and fans of FF and FV throughout the SCCA personnel and decision makers. We should not worry about the classes being eliminated. He noted that the SCCA could have done a better job communicating this point.
- There are only so many hot track hours available over a weekend, so that limits the number of possible race groups.
- The decision was made simply due to the SM/SMX class being too many cars for one race group, so they had to split it into two (SM and SMX).
- And since the resulting SMX only group was going to be larger than the average small formula group, they decided to go with the group that averages more entries.
- The SCCA wants to keep small formula healthy. Their best guess on how to make up for the HST decision was to make some of the regional events extra special for small formula groupings by giving them Majors points and importance.
- In the last days, the SCCA has changed the target Major’s participation number for automatic qualification in the runoffs:
- If a class is over the Major’s participation target average, the class is automatically invited to the Runoffs
- If the class is under the target, there is an internal SCCA discussion on whether to include the class or not to include the class.
- This is too subjective and risky in the opinion of all who participated in the Zoom meeting. Hence everyone fervently agreed our mission is to drive more Majors participation in 2025.
- The rule update is – the two year participation rate for all Majors and Runoffs combined needs to average over 5.0 cars per race.
- It was 4.0, now is 5.0
- It’s evaluated January 1 each year. If over 5.0, the class is automatically included in the runoffs.
- For 2024, FF average was 4.3. 151 total entries
- To meet the new target, in 2025 we need over 200 total entries in all majors and the runoffs combined. A 30% increase (50 more entries).
- There are 32 events (weekends) that count. Each event is typically two races. The events are listed in the “files” tab of the Formula F USA Facebook group.
- The first three events are 43 days from now (January 18, 2025)
- The Zoom participants were optimistic that we can make this happen.
The action items for all of us:
- Focus on reaching 200+ total entries at Majors and the Runoffs
- We’re going to keep track of the counts relative to the target
- Each of us is committed to running more Majors in ’25 than ’24. Many are doing a couple more, some three more.
- Hopefully those who could not attend the Zoom will join us at the track to do one or two more Majors.
- The BIGGER opportunity is:
- Recruit regional runners, non-SCCA drivers, and idle cars to run a Major or three.
- To make recruiting possible:
- We need to make a list of all cars we know about, active and inactive, SCCA or not.
- EVERONE PLEASE Email us a list of all the cars your aware of to formulafusa@gmail.com
- Owner name, state, and phone number and/or email address
- We will not sell or share this list, it’ll stay private
- A subset of the Zoom group will contact everyone to find out how we can help get these cars to one or more Majors
- Some of these folks will need technical assistance to make it happen, we’ll help coordinate that.
- Once we learn what the barriers are, we’ll make plans to address them. We have no idea what that looks like until we learn more.
So in summary, please email us a list of drivers/cars that you are aware of so we can help those who are willing and able to get to a few races. Maybe they are just having a hard time finding crew to go with them and belt them into the car and jump start them on the grid– in that case they can paddock with another crew and get that help. Maybe they need help converting their car to running the radials – we can help with that. Maybe they need some take-off tires to help with budgeting – we can help with that. Maybe they just need to be asked…
formulafusa@gmail.com
Last paragraph nails it Tony. The tractor trailer/toterhome teams have pushed the average pickup/20ft trailer guys away.
The missing link is to help a newbie not to feel like a peasant when he shows up. We all knew diddly squat when we started.
Ken.
Blaming the Toterhome people for keeping the entries down is at the very least counter productive. I was going to use other words, but I restrained myself. I show up often with 3 or 4 cars, lots of spare parts, and knowledge to help others with their issues , and often do. Much of the time several cars on the track are there because they are using something from my trailer If you want to blame someone look at rules makers who keep saying it is only another $***** for this new gizmo. I could go on! Many people are not racing now because they cannot rationalize the expense. And thanks to Ivey engines who consistently come up with the parts that keep Formula Fords going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
I doubt that feeling like a peasant is keeping folks away from the race track. The big rigs are likely a symptom and not a cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
Larry
Back when I lived in Minnesota I remember going to Brainerd for the CanAM. McLaren used to show up with two pick-up trucks and open trailers.
So, when I finished my homebuilt DSR in the early aughts i used to pull it on a homebuilt open trailer and I liked to park right next to the largest motorhome in the "wings and things" class. They were generally happy to share their electricity and unhappy when they weren't substantially faster than we were. We were hardly ever invited over for their steak BBQ on Saturday night.
Didn't stop us from attending, however.
Ah, nostalgia!
M
Therefore the paddock is thin on entries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry H
You are correct, Ken. The paddock is thin on entries! I have no idea what the therefore means. In today's world there are many people who have the funds to go racing, but may not have the talent, time, tools, space, etc to take care of a racecar. In addition the race weekend is family time for many. In my case, I prepare customer cars, take care of them at the track, coach them on their driving and stay at the track in moderate comfort instead of using a Hotel. I am too damn old to sleep on the ground. Work hard at getting rid of these people and see how many competitors you have to race with. I sometimes even have the funds to drive myself. We need to work on getting rid of some of the stupid rules requiring people to spend extra money to race. Seat belts, 2 Year fire system service, one weekend tires come to mind off the top.
Post of the Year.
I show up with a pickup and open trailer and have NEVER felt unwelcomed by the guys with the big rigs that I race with, even when I am sometimes in their way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
The problem is the ever increasing costs due to absolutely stupid, poorly thought out rule changes being made by the BOD who only care about appeasing Miatas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland V. Johnson
I agree 100% Roland. The arrive and drive format has evolved well over the years and attracts some great customers that become lifelong friends. Some very young and others perhaps not so young, in years anyway.
Let's say a series has 3 multi car teams. I am talking SCCA regional ,FRP,Toyo F1600(Canada) as examples. Club Racing. Not USF pro or whatever. 4 cars per team so give or take 12 cars in the paddock so far. The other dozen or so entries we need for a decent grid are simply not there in numbers. I am not chucking at these guys. I am simply trying to figure why.
Stupid rules and poor track time. Mindless schedules. I know there has to be a 'rotate' among groups but a 5 hour wait between sessions is the cause of many FCY's during late in the day races. Too many snacks (sodium/sugar) and lack of focus come race time. How many times have you been on pitwall for 3 green flag laps? If you are like me way too many. Make races 10 laps green minimum regardless of circumstance.
To finish with a smile Roland, you forgot FIA rain lights and megabuck transponders on the 'stupid rules' list. Just sayin.
Cheers. Ken.
Too many options of slightly varied classes & series, all aimed at essentially the same limited target market, although the Road to Indy ladder grabs almost all the young kids (aka Dad) thinking they are the next Indy & F1 star.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
SCCA FF / FC, FRP F1600 / F2000, USF2000, USF4, FMzR etc.
I think that would be a bad idea, considering some of the races I have seen (looking at you, USF4). A simple race could draw out into a huge headache that screws the entire day if you depend on them getting 10 green flag laps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
Roland hit the nail on the head. Control cost is a must.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland V. Johnson
How can a Mazda Miata be called a race car? Even the 'high foreheads' at IMSA have been conned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
Hi Matt. My idea was to ease the pain. You could be right but circumstances vary. My thought pattern was 1.50 seconds a lap x 10. 15 mins added time. Unless Billy Bob wads it up at lap 5.
;) Not that I race one, but a Miata would have beat the pants off of every type of car that started SCCA racing. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
XK 140 Jaguar ?:oQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Cheers Ken.
Dig out the records, but I'm with Dave on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken
General question, what does it take to impeach the vice president of the club?
The regions aren't happy with what has taken place and stand to lose money this year. Also entry level formula car racing stands to lose a lot and in our eyes is under attack.
All from someone that last raced a Miata and is clearly in bed with Mazda.
So Brian is this question in response to Roland's post above? His last two sentences are what I think is the demise of racing in America. I wish there was a way to find out the REAL reason for most of these stupid rules that seem to just increase costs but not safety. If you ask why they seem to shrug their shoulders and say that is what it is but seem unwilling to explain.
If safety is really that bad, then why are us older racers still alive? Excuse me, I now fall into the ex racer since that rain light rule was enough to push me over the top and stop racing. That and it's ridiculous implementation requiring a CERTIFIED light was way out of line. The seat belt rule was just as bad and a terrible waste of the budget racers yearly updates.
I have had talks with other racers and most seem to thin that us older guys might see the end of club racing. The thought that they can keep enough young people coming to climb the ladder will do it, is foolish thinking.
Ed
Agree on all counts, Ed.
But in some cases, even older guys wanting to do this for decades had a change of heart in competing under so many unnecessary new expenses — and with endless uncertainties like “What’s next after this” and “Am I buying a car with no future class?”
The appearance is grave, as if considerations are only given to people coming in and blowing a ton of excess dough for a few years, then moving on to “higher pursuits” like flying their own planes to country clubs.
Honestly, this irritates and saddens me on your behalf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
When a longtime, downright Legend in any class says this, I sincerely hope someone giving a damn is listening.
Ed,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
We can complain about the SCCA all we want - but most of the blame belongs to us. In FV did we say no to the tire wars in the 80's and 90's? No - Did we say no to the $1000 manifold and now $2000 exhaust wars in FV - no. Did we say no to the $1000 shocks and $500 brakes? No. Everyone was so drunk on going faster and paying the engine builders more and more that we forgot the rule in FV that says "emphasizes driver ability rather than technological development of the car." So let's not use the rain light as an excuse - technology was the drug and we were the users.
If you put a Majors car next to a average Regional car - all the parts look alike, but when you add up the cost of the parts, and the development, you would faint. Maybe that will always be, but we cannot set the standard that every car has to be able to win the Runoffs. That is a bar too high to meet.
ChrisZ
I presume you’re being presumptive.
Or maybe we both are. ;)
Funny, this reminds me of a race at Lime Rock. Bob Wright was in this so maybe he remembers it. The FFs were the last group and you had to be off the track at 6pm sharp. It was about 15 minutes to 6 when the cars rolled out for only a ten lap race. 30+ cars went into the first turn and we did not expect any to come out. 10 laps later - it was one of the cleanest races they had all year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
Compare that to this race https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLRoY8NzrYE
Go to 10:25
ChrisZ
It meets Stroker Ace's notion of a "sporty car." The foundation of SCCA was that you can race just about anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robins Ken