CoTA-official thread

Wren, no hard feelings toward you either.

Thank you Mat, post 191 and many others nailed it IMHO.

A yellow in front of your car until you pass the incident, means no passing. Period. Doesnt matter if any side of the track is green. Restart or not. Yellow means no passing, period. The main reason is, you have no idea whats ahead, thats what the flags are for.

Am I proud of my win? Yup. We should be. We worked hard to get it. I didnt make the mistake, JR did. Rules are rules. And letting people get away with it, especially when so many workers somehow didnt see it, a point must be made. Is it the way I want to win? Hell no. Am I going to let valuable points be taken away when rules are broken by my fellow competitors when I try to build a legal car and respect the rules? JR wasnt even aware he did it. He didnt say he saw them but it went green like the 2nd race.

I cant tell everyone enough how much I respect JR as a driver. I watched him win his 3 championships in 2 years at Topeka in C & DSR. HE was one of the reasons I went to D. I wanted to race against him and Jeremko. Unfortunately they sold thier cars the same off season I got mine. I still respect JR to the highest degree. We had an amazing race both days trading spots multiple times. Its unfortunate if this ruins our realationship.

I really wish none of this happened.

BTW, our saturday protest wasnt "disallowed or overturned" we withdrew our protest.

Agree, it was a new track to all of us, but...Im not sure why so many say the flags were hard to see. Simply because I had no problems seeing them... All 3 situations. I also look for the stations when I first learn the track. A big help is waiving to the workers on the cool off lap, makes em smile too.

I never usually race without a radio. And never without a video. Trust me, those will be on car from now on. Because if I had video, the outcome would already be settled. And by the sounds of it, Scarallo would have won and I'd be in 2nd with more tires, GDRE cash and great standings in the points. But im not and I have to just deal with it.... I will.

I dont race for a plastic trophy... I race to win.

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Originally Posted by jimk1852

Does anyone happen to have video of the dust up at the beginning of
the group 6 race on Sunday?

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Yes. I posted a link in the "COTA News?" thread in the general forum. That said, I'd love to see any other views...

http://youtu.be/CtJMMm_eGLI

The two cars in front of the 94 dropped anchor going into 1; accordion effect ensued.

Someone mentioned the yellow painted squares around the track marking the flag stations. This is simply incorrect! The yellow painted squares indicate the end of the rail sections. It would have helped if there were something like that indicating a flag station, but it wasn't the case.

The flagging stations were located behind the catch fence. The platforms were not painted to stand out. Some of them were way off the focal point of the turns. The track is extremely wide, there is a ton of run off room, and the flagging station is on the other side of the fence.

The turn 12 flag station in particular was 150 feet or more to the right of the apex of the left turn. It was way out of the line of sight. I missed that first FCY and passed LaBrie on the exit of 12 while the BRD car passed both of us (he was a lap down). I was too busy checking my mirrors and trying to setup a turn in traffic to look far off to the right. I slowed when I saw the FCY at the next flag station. It was a simple mistake, one that I couldn't verify until I saw my video.

While I was in a group of four cars (LaBrie, Blue/Gold Stohr, Biner) C/DSR 84 (T8), FA 00 (T16), FA 22 (T16), and FA 71 (T17) passed all of us well into a FCY that came out while were were at T12. They weren't even looking at the flag stations and were still racing full speed in the red mist. I don't have the standings in front of me at the moment, but I was told the FAs were the leaders in their class. They should know better.

COTA is a fast track, no doubt about it. We were racing with some of the fastest drivers in some of the fastest cars in the country and were learning a new track together. But some of the drivers in other classes didn't have a clue!!! :blackflag:

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Originally Posted by jose gerardo

To All My Fellow Competitors,

Thank you all for being there and making it possible for SCCA to consider the venue for the
2014 Runoffs, I personally would like to congratulate all of you on your achievements, it really does not matter if we come first or last, what matters is that we have the health and
financial backing to be there, we should remember that and be thankful for it no matter the results, I for one am happy for the results and it is what makes this level of racing exciting,
what interest would we have in it if we did not have at least a slight chance to win once in a while ?.

God bless you all and I hope to see you all again soon.

Best Regards

Jose Gerardo

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words of wisdom.. my favorite post of this thread by FAR

^^I couldnt agree more^^

But it doesnt change what happend and rules are rules.

And just as some asked how I could be proud of my win, how could the drivers who did pass under yellow be proud of theirs?

Can anyone provide video proving me wrong that there werent yellows in 16/17/18 during the restart? Funny that no one is posting those videos.

Results are still not official with multiple PUY protests for our group.

I can't say what the flag stations did before or after I went by. However, my video shows caution flags from T12 to checker on the green flag lap. The FAs passed in 16, 17, 18 on the first FCY, approximately lap 3.


I've admitted my mistake to the SOM and LaBrie and I'm sure I'll be penalized a position. It was not intentional and I don't think he took offense. It was nice meeting everyone and finally being able to put faces with names.

Would you mind posting it?

Anybody have a pic or a copy of the provisional results for group 5?

Im looking to contact certain people for video of the restart, primarily, at corners 12-19 when the green flag was thrown.

The SOM are looking for video and is why the results are still not official.

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Originally Posted by LLoshak

Anybody have a pic or a copy of the provisional results for group 5?

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http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...ay-gp5PROV.pdf

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Originally Posted by LLoshak

But it doesnt change what happend and rules are rules.

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So true - rules are rules. For those of you think that he shouldn't go unpenalized for breaking the rules, then why should we have a post race impound? Impound does not have anything to do with what happened on track. Should Tech inspectors let someone win a race if they are found under weight by a pound or two? Well some can argue the performance advantage of 1 pound is null. One of the first things they teach you at a drivers school is to know where the flag stations are located. I certainly believe a pass under yellow is more dangerous then being underweight one pound.

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Originally Posted by Ian Lenhart

So true - rules are rules. For those of you think that he shouldn't go unpenalized for breaking the rules, then why should we have a post race impound? Impound does not have anything to do with what happened on track. Should Tech inspectors let someone win a race if they are found under weight by a pound or two? Well some can argue the performance advantage of 1 pound is null. One of the first things they teach you at a drivers school is to know where the flag stations are located. I certainly believe a pass under yellow is more dangerous then being underweight one pound.

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They typically check performance items in impound. That is completely unrelated to what happened here. JR was in first and accidentally passed cars that weren't in his class. Since the race never went green again, what he did had no impact on the outcome of the race.
John's situation is entirely different as he was passed under yellow by people in his class. It is unfortunate that it came to that, but he handled it the classy way and I would be surprised if anyone disapproves.

I can only speak for myself, but I would never want to win a race over something unrelated to performance like this. But, I would also never engage in a lot of the behaviour that others do.

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Originally Posted by Wren

JR was in first and accidentally passed cars that weren't in his class. Since the race never went green again, what he did had no impact on the outcome of the race.

I can only speak for myself, but I would never want to win a race over something unrelated to performance like this.

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That certainly presents a moral dilema. If I felt that JRO didn't know the race wasn't going to go greeen again and was using unsportsman-like tactics to gain an advantage I'd have no problem at all filing the paper.

It would come down to my relationship with JRO and how he has been to race with/against.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wren

..

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Sadly, the muscle turns to fat.

it matters, but it isn't the topic at hand

Why would you bring that up in this thread in the first place?

the hell with it, not worth it

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by KevinFirlein

the hell with it, not worth it

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I'm disappointed with you. :(

I am waiting for the movie version

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Originally Posted by Mike B

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...ay-gp5PROV.pdf

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1 link that works.

Still have not heard if the Sunday race ended under a red flag.

That link works.

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Originally Posted by glenn cooper

Still have not heard if the Sunday race ended under a red flag.

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Of course, I wasn't there but I don't recall any mention of a red flag in the broadcast. It's entirely possible that T & S screwed up the results of R2 like they did for R1 (still showing JR in P1 and Mayer in P9 on the official results).

There was no red flag. It ended with a FCY and Checker.

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Originally Posted by glenn cooper

1 link that works.

Still have not heard if the Sunday race ended under a red flag.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wren

They typically check performance items in impound. That is completely unrelated to what happened here. JR was in first and accidentally passed cars that weren't in his class. Since the race never went green again, what he did had no impact on the outcome of the race.
John's situation is entirely different as he was passed under yellow by people in his class. It is unfortunate that it came to that, but he handled it the classy way and I would be surprised if anyone disapproves.

I can only speak for myself, but I would never want to win a race over something unrelated to performance like this. But, I would also never engage in a lot of the behaviour that others do.

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Classy? I guess its classy to see the video, finally realize you're wrong (of passing 6 different yellow stations and passing 3 different cars) and then do it again, 2 seperate times (the very next day) and then cause a wreck in 20? Dont go there Wren.

Again, I shouldnt of had to protest. It should have been called in by the corner workers. Then you'd have no one to blame but JR.

And thats why I'm not letting it go. We need to learn something from this weekend, including the Stewards, the corner workers , T&S and the drivers. Especially after reading that so many drivers actually think a green over-rides a yellow.

And Sundays race, I did lose several possision because of people passing under yellow. 4 different drivers. From leading the race before the yellows to finishing 6th.

Funny theres no videos being posted.

Dear Friends,

I have contacted the stewards regarding the FB results and will provide video and timeline of
screen shots of the restart to them, rest assured that this evidence will provide the necessary information they need to resolve the matter.

It was great racing with you guys and look forward to doing it all over again.

Best Regards

Jose Gerardo
Stohr #14

P.S. Here's a preview, picture one yellow flag under budweiser logo left front, picture two no flag and just to confirm picture three next to corner station no flag, video on it's way to stewards.

I liked FB a lot more when all the competitors had the mutual interest in growing the class, getting along, and were genuinely happy for one another when they did well. For instance the post-race environment at the Runoffs last year. I hope one event has not turned FB into the next FM bitchfest.

I've never met Jose, but after reading his posts I really look forward to shaking his hand. Seems like a guy who gets it.

When Rossella had her Topeka crash a few years ago at the Runoffs the whole Front Range crew pitched in as well and at 2am Jose was doing (his words) a mexican paint job on the bodywork. Really good guy - he does get it!!!
Phil

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Originally Posted by Northwind

If I see yellow I treat it as a yellow. There has been a number of times I have seen someone that has been over-zealous warming their tires and has spun in the track. Even if it is a re-start, how do you know the track is safe in front of you. I use the corner stations, plain and simple.

I actually would like to see a rule change adopting the pro format. The track isn't green until you cross the sart line. I have seen some close calls with those that don't have radios and those that react assuming everyone else does.

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Problem I see here is most pro series have lights in car that are activated by the chief starter or they are closley lined up. In the SCCA there are lots of dilly dallerers out there who make no attempt to catch up to the leaders while the pace car is out. If you are midfield behind one of these it's very frustrating. Not many dilly dallierers in the pro ranks.

I agree Reid, never thought it would come to this. Definately not what I was looking for joining FB.

Jose, I protested 4 cars that I believed PUY. I was told to pay $50. I left my phone number and told them I had a flight to catch. At the airport, I recieved a call from a steward telling me I needed to leave $50/car. I told them I was at the airport and I didnt know which number was whose without a grid sheet.

Thanks for the photos too Jose, but dropping of the yellow doesnt make it green, we were following a pace car. But I swear there was a yellow in 16/17/18.

Any chance you can post the video so we can all see?


If im wrong, I will owe you and everyone an apology and assure everyone, this wont happen again.

I didn't want to post anything as the weekend is over for me and I want to just move on, but the last post of Loshak is just not right.

Race 1- Turn 12 is 147 mph going down to 38 mph. My eyes were only looking at the brake markers and the 2 cars I was going to pass. I had no chance to look at the flagman at the end of the run off area. In the following turns 13-14 there were 2 more cars that I was focusing on along with the apexes and those flags are well off the race track as well. Turn 17 has a flag closer to the track and that was the 1st flag I spotted.

Yes, I made a mistake, but the punishment does not fit the crime. I did not pass YOU under yellow. I don't think it was cause for you to go and protest me.

Race 2- Loshak says I passed him under yellow. I completed the pass PRIOR to turn 12. It was close, but I was in front before we got to 12. I did not see a yellow heading on to the back stretch and you were not slowing at all going into 12 either. I did not pass you under yellow.

The restart was just a cluster. I was coming out of 15 and got the call that the green was out. I nail it and pass a FA and when I round 17, they still have double yellows out. Now I check up because I'm kind of at a loss of what to do. Several cars freight train by me going into 19. I hit the throttle again and end up with a bunch of cars going into 20. I'm on the outside get nipped on the left. I spin and end up facing traffic where an FA proceeds to drive over my left side.

How the heck did I cause the wreck???? Every race I've been to, when the green flag waves the course is green. How can you have double yellows and a green at the same time? I understand having standing yellows and a green, but not a green and double yellows as the double yellow is displayed by the starter as well.

That last lap was the mayhem and I got caught up in it. Don't blame me for that. Don't make it sound like I'm just driving around passing everyone when yellows are out.

It was a great place and I would like to return.

J.R.O

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Originally Posted by LLoshak

Classy?

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Yeah. Labrie handled it the classy way. He went and talked to the people about it and let them know what was going on instead of letting the stewards handle it. His protest was also related to his position in class, and that is all of the difference to me.

You didn't file the protest. I don't know what's bothering you.

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I guess its classy to see the video, finally realize you're wrong (of passing 6 different yellow stations and passing 3 different cars) and then do it again, 2 seperate times (the very next day) and then cause a wreck in 20? Dont go there Wren.

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None of those things have anything to do with class.

I flew out Sunday morning. I don't know what happened during the Sunday race, but it sounds like you got at least part of it wrong.

Nothing I have said is to excuse JR. My opinion is independent of who is involved. I've just got my opinion on when a win matters and you have yours.

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Again, I shouldnt of had to protest. It should have been called in by the corner workers. Then you'd have no one to blame but JR.

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It is equally as likely that they would have had a quick talk with JR, acknowledged that it had no effect and leave it alone. They had better things to do.

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Funny theres no videos being posted.

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Maybe because people don't have it?

See red comments below

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Originally Posted by JRO183

I didn't want to post anything as the weekend is over for me and I want to just move on, but the last post of Loshak is just not right.

Race 1- Turn 12 is 147 mph going down to 38 mph. My eyes were only looking at the brake markers and the 2 cars I was going to pass. I had no chance to look at the flagman at the end of the run off area. In the following turns 13-14 there were 2 more cars that I was focusing on along with the apexes and those flags are well off the race track as well. Turn 17 has a flag closer to the track and that was the 1st flag I spotted. I understand, but I saw them all with no problem, not sure why I could and anyone else couldnt... Especially were talking several corner stations.

Yes, I made a mistake, but the punishment does not fit the crime. I did not pass YOU under yellow. I don't think it was cause for you to go and protest me. It was also to prove a point to the stewards and to prove I wasnt crazy or making up a stories and was hoping they could learn something from it. But the lack of reporting Sundays PUY proved nobody did. If I could take it back I would, all of this just isnt worth it. I didnt think almost everything would repeat it's self the next day.

Race 2- Loshak says I passed him under yellow. I completed the pass PRIOR to turn 12. It was close, but I was in front before we got to 12. I did not see a yellow heading on to the back stretch and you were not slowing at all going into 12 either. I did not pass you under yellow. JR, corner 12 was yellow during our entire approach, you swept out and passed me under braking, not before.

The restart was just a cluster. I was coming out of 15 and got the call that the green was out. I nail it and pass a FA and when I round 17, they still have double yellows out. BINGO, thank you for being honest. Now I check up because I'm kind of at a loss of what to do. Several cars freight train by me going into 19. I hit the throttle again and end up with a bunch of cars going into 20. I'm on the outside get nipped on the left. I spin and end up facing traffic where an FA proceeds to drive over my left side.

How the heck did I cause the wreck???? Every race I've been to, when the green flag waves the course is green. How can you have double yellows and a green at the same time? Exactly, maybe they screwed up or something was on the track, but if a yellow is displayed, theres no passing, no matter what you hear over the radio. I understand having standing yellows and a green, but not a green and double yellows as the double yellow is displayed by the starter as well.

That last lap was the mayhem and I got caught up in it. Don't blame me for that. Don't make it sound like I'm just driving around passing everyone when yellows are out. Sorry JR, but thats sure what it looked like from my driver seat and Im getting stoned for saying anything.

It was a great place and I would like to return. Me too.... Without the mayhem. I dont think Ive ever been at a race weekend with so many yellow, red and black flags.

J.R.O

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Anyway, doesnt seem to matter JR. Seems they somehow screwed up the official results putting you finishing 19th overall instead of 37th. So looks like you still got the win and I got second. So it was all for nothing. :rolleyes:

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...turday-gp5.pdf

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Originally Posted by JRO183

Every race I've been to, when the green flag waves the course is green. How can you have double yellows and a green at the same time? I understand having standing yellows and a green, but not a green and double yellows as the double yellow is displayed by the starter as well.

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This is a key question, regardless of the other alleged PUYs.

Shouldn't the double yellows be dropped at ALL stations at the same time as the green is waved?

I will post the video soon guys, rest assured whoever deserves the win will get it, i will do my best to clarify the result so that none of us have any regrets, it is an important win for me , my first at this level , but it will not mean anything to me if even one person doubts it , my crew worked very hard for it and Dave Casswell was right on time when calling the green, the expression i saw in the face of my friends that travelled there from El Paso as well as that from all the frontrange guys is much more valuable than being given credit for the win, so rest assured that fairness will win at the end, and with it we will ALL win.

Jose

Love people and use things , don't use people and love things

All COTA FB Drivers/Racers:

Video discovered......

Ok guys.......I understand that things got real wild on the track at COTA........but hey, perhaps nothing matches this. Perhaps it's time to change the mood of all F1000 drivers.

Do you really think that anybody could get away with this behavior?

Check out this video..........

http://www.thatsracin.com/2013/03/12...takes-car.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshall Mauney

This is a key question, regardless of the other alleged PUYs.

Shouldn't the double yellows be dropped at ALL stations at the same time as the green is waved?

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This echoes a post I made on another forum:

The controlling language is GCR 6.6.2.B.3.iii.

Drivers must maintain the safety car’s pace and not
improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag
has been displayed to restart the race.

And 6.5.1.G.3 (Starts): ".. Racing begins and passing may occur throughout the field when the green flag is displayed."


Racing throughout the field starts when Start shows the Green. Race Control will (should) direct flag stations to drop their FCY when Start goes Green.


It is good practice for stations not to drop the FCY before notification from Control. This helps prevent a mess if Start waves off the pack for some reason. Also, all stations should drop their FCY at the same instant, again to avoid a situation where part of the pack is racing, and part not.


From a driver's point of view, when the station in front of you drops its FCY, you are good to go. There is ample precedent for this.


On a start, there are three possible scenarios:


1. Start goes Green. Control directs all stations to drop their Yellows, which they do. The entire field starts racing. This is how the process is supposed to work.


2. Start goes Green. A station with line of sight drops its Yellow before Control directs them to, or a station fails to drop its Yellow when directed by Control, or Control is slow in making the call to go Green. Now different parts of the pack are receiving different messages. Chaos ensues.

This is not supposed to happen. Which is why stations should drop their Yellow on command from Control. (And why Control should make the call the instant Start goes Green.)

But you still may not pass under Yellow.


3. Start does not go Green (i.e. waves off the start/restart). This happens seldom, if ever, on restarts. A station nonetheless drops its Yellow. Cars in its span of control start racing. Chaos ensues.


As a practical matter for a driver under FCY, when the station in view drops its Yellow, the driver can start racing. Period. Full stop.


If the station dropped its Yellow prematurely or against instruction, the driver will (should) still be made whole. We do not (should not) punish a driver for someone else's screw-up.


What happens in everyday racing is that stations may respond to the command from Control (to drop the Double Yellow) at different instants. This may advantage some drivers over others. As a driver, my attitude is that this sort of thing evens out over the course of one's racing career.


What also happens is that some drivers may hesitate when the FCY goes away, and drivers who get on the gas instantly gain an advantage. That's racing.

Thank you, John!!

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Originally Posted by LLoshak

Anyway, doesnt seem to matter JR. Seems they somehow screwed up the official results putting you finishing 19th overall instead of 37th. So looks like you still got the win and I got second. So it was all for nothing. :rolleyes:

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...turday-gp5.pdf

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If you read the bottom of the sheet it says that #83 (JR) loses 3 positions in class so actually you won (you can put away the kleenex, J/K)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niP-uHBg-pU

what are you plans for the rest of the season? will you be running the JDR exclusively? East coast/ west coast?

My personal opinion is that the issue with PUY at the showing of the green could have been avoided two ways.

1) I don't think the pace car came out in front of the overall leader. At the very least, the leaders of FB were on the back half of the track when the green was shown. I was just entering the front straight at the green and I don't think the class leaders were in the same zip code. The lap sheets that I saw from T&S confirmed this.

Had the field been bunched up, we would have all gone around the FCY together and taken the green together.

2) All stations drop the FCY as soon as the green was waived.

...but what do I know?

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Originally Posted by Richard Dziak

All COTA FB Drivers/Racers:

Video discovered......

Ok guys.......I understand that things got real wild on the track at COTA........but hey, perhaps nothing matches this. Perhaps it's time to change the mood of all F1000 drivers.

Do you really think that anybody could get away with this behavior?

Check out this video..........

http://www.thatsracin.com/2013/03/12...takes-car.html

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Now that is really funny!