I could provide the zetec as it should be out of the car at the end of the season anyways, I don't have a shipping crate however.
Zac B.
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I could provide the zetec as it should be out of the car at the end of the season anyways, I don't have a shipping crate however.
Zac B.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccoffin
Why not use the place with the most data on the subject??
The front of the pack (Zetec) is using parts that we not legal when the adoption of the motor to the class was adopted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnovak
Spending more money go go a little faster, will not bring Pinto cars back.
Increasing the power will only wear them out faster, as is seen with other engines where the RPM's/power has been increased. Bringing the Zetec back to where the Pinto's are now (after they already spent money a few years ago to keep the Zetec motored cars happy) is the only way to do it.
Add weight to the Zetec car if you want some Pinto powered cars to leave the garage for a level field.
I'm 45 minutes from Quicksilver and our Quicksilver pinto (cast iron head, lightened flywheel, current cam, 5.5" clutch) is also available for the project. According to Clark Cambern's posts in 2007 it was the fastest pinto in those pro series races he had entered at that time. When Clark's team received it fresh from Quicksilver in 2007, Sandy considered it a very strong national level engine. To my knowledge while top and bottom end work have been done, it has not been on a dyno since that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by eospeed
Not sure what we are looking for in our baseline engine, nonetheless, ours is available if it makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zac.B
Zac if we do the testing there will be no need to supply a zetec. Someone just buy the carb and I will run it on a motor.
Erik
The CRB will require data from a reputable dyno testing company to make this kind of decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by eospeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnovak
Jay I think Quicksilver should work.
Thanks
Erik Oseth
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by eospeed
Might be better to pool your money on a lawyer, help you craft a protest ........Runoffs coming up, LOL ........ almost comedic ..... Saturday night live style ......... And by the way guys we've been cheating once back into FC, in FA we looked like fools so we matched engines (not really fools insightful, plan was for FC), but that's ok, you can cheat too, you spend your money, we don't want to spend ours to be legal!!! when we match up the new HP, (oh ours 'Z' by all means), we'll be one again, we'll be the world (arm in arm song!!)
Perhaps Formula Libre should be added to the Runoffs as a gentleman's group, token Gold medal
Don't really mean the above, I'm good natured, carry on the matching boys!!!! ...
actually Fm, Fe, FPinto, FZetec, should be matched big production style (Cecille B DeMille ... equals to equals to equals to equal), then we would have race groups, call it Formula Lights or since there's Formula Atlantic and since Continental sounds good make a group, don't think there is a huge Mazda money thing in club racing so may work, .... Enterprises though and don't need too now, 5-6 years maybe ........
EVERYONE SHOW UP, GOT A NEAT TRACK FOLKS, forget the small discrepancies, I was only kidding!!!!
So this thread covered a lot of bases and the discussion morphed into the "next" FC engine.
Well here it is:
http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm
Scroll down for the 1175cc 4cyl version too...:eek:
Here the Bolt 8 going into a Super7 replacing a Zetec.
Lower CG
http://www.h1v8.com/albums/album_ima...06/1355666.htm
:checkered:
I love it , but I'm afraid to ask how much they cost ! One of those would be sweet in my FA car.
I read a note somewhere that they were aiming for $25k. Half the cost f the radical 8.
:D
Found:
http://www.dpcars.net/dp1test/da.htm
Suggest Laguna Seca or Runoffs bound Zetecsters, pick up a junkyard motor or crate motor, and slap Sandy's/Steve's stuff on it like the rules say, maybe they will tag it and load Bob Wright in the ECU for a few Reals, (club load) ........ or, ...... dyno and tag and tell u why bother or it's a winner, ....... for more money (Re-als, Brazilian smackaroos)!!!! .......... LOL .........
Posto ..... Bob Wright gets a great effort for the matching management team, kind of side winded his name but u know what i mean
Since I am the only Pinto I see for 98 and newer cars around the F2000 series (maybe one other here and there), I would like a new carb please. If it is a bolt on situation that costs a few bucks I will take it in a second. I bet this has been looked into by the pro engine builders already and cant really see it being much of pain to do.
I do not know the pinto car count at nationals but I have to imagine there are plenty left out there. I am speaking for myself though. The zetecs walk away from me coming out of corners and I consider my pinto to be pretty strong. I do not carry all of the mechanical and engineering knowledge, but I do know what happens on the track at least at the pro series level. So if guys running nationals in Pinto's want an easy upgrade, then lets get a new carb.
Chris M
Chris,
I'm afraid it's not just as easy as a carb change.
The mapping of a fuel injected system allows the correct air/fuel ratio over a wider range then a carb could ever produce. Thus, you may increase some low end, or some high end, but the injected system would get you on those points in-between.
Also, once again, why should the Pinto owners be made to bear the costs.
Best to add weight to the Zetec cars.
I'm curious as to where this has progressed, if at all. Anyone in the know care to share?
talked to Honda racing at the runoffs and was told we will have a Honda end of next year!
Did he say it would be a smaller displacement ?
Saw the new fa motor... estimared $35k for a package....
Do you think Mazda is going to sit idle?
Wow ! We can't even get better rod & piston geometry for our Pintos. .. The Zetec has been a great engine. ... A new, current & long lived Honda production engine would certainly be a welcomed addition.
IF this is a reality... With the success of the Honda in FF, they would certainly inspire a new crop of cars in FC.
Kudos to Honda ! Someone must look to the future... Even NASCAR had to move on to fuel injection. ..
That word may not mean what you think it does... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by racerdad2
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdad2
Not in my lifetime would a Honda in FC be welcome by me.
We should be well set with the Pinto and Ztec. I will probably get flamed for this, but the last thing FC needs is a new engine of the year that will make everyone go out and spend big bucks to convert existing cars just to remain even remotely competitive in regionals.
he didnt say size so i dont know but he said it would be competive supply was the reason its not available right now acording to him
Well, I'm not thinking in my lifetime. I'm thinking 10 - 20 years hence....
There is the issue if the GCR :D
The Honda guy said the fa motor was already approved for 2015...
So they seem to have some board influence.....
Let me put this in another light. IF you were to build a new FC, would it be a Pinto ? Zetec or the proposed new Honda ? Seems the new FF's are Hondas. My thoughts are a new crop of FC's with Honda power may be on the way.
IF Honda can provide a long lived FA engine, they may have a lock on the future engines of FF, FC & FA.
With Honda coming to F1, perhaps they are trying to build their own engine 'road to F1' ?
I, for one, would like to see a major manufacturer step in and provide new crate engines for the next ten or twenty years.
While I don't have much if any pull in this,
I have a pinto powered FC, that is effectively out of date for competition.
I understand the newer cars make up a big portion of this, but it would be nice to know I was able to be even close with it to take it to a regional.
Having a good engine in the car and a full spare, it's an investment to update,
But if rods and Pistons will extend service life, and carb will get the power close; I can see paying some. It comes down to having a car worth 10-14k and what it takes to make it useful.
Also think, if the pinto becomes more relevant, than prices of cars will likely come up. So the investment will probably be met in increased value. Though likely never realized as I doubt I'll sell it.
As for the Honda, that sounds cool, and I'd love an injected computer motor that was reliable and easy to maintain. But 2-3k in engine updates vs 15k plus to switch power plants ( and the pinto won't be worth much if that becomes popular) is a clear choice. If it takes 15k to make the car relevant, than I will just play with it and have fun, vintage and trackday stuff.
I sure hope this is just some pot stirring for some laughs. All we need to do is jump over to the Ford vs Honda thread in the FF area to see the future. We're fine the way it is. No need to add any more engines. 2 is plenty.
I'm very content with my Pinto - Reynard. A 40 year old engine in a 25 year old car. I'm simply trying to understand why a rather inexpensive upgrade in rods & pistons can give us longer lived engines. Not an increase in power, just durability. Of course, a few more HP to chase the Zetecs would certainly be 'welcomed' :)
This thread sure is all over the place.
I'm headed to Pull-N-Save to find FI system to bolt on the Pinto. Mapping could be done fairly easily I suppose...
Which reminds me, wouldn't permitting the FC-Zetec EFI system on the Pinto (perhaps with a different restrictor opening if needed) address some of that engine's power and TBO issues?Quote:
Originally Posted by HayesCages
Racer dad the long rod pinto being longer lived has to do with the geometry of the rod/crank/piston/cylinder combo.
In brief, the long rod geometry will reduce the wear on the ring corners resulting in much longer life for the ring seal
At least that is how someone lots smarter explained it to me.
:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by 2BWise
This comes up first on Google;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0mrSlzPDa0
Some assembly required:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Individual-T...14ee9a&vxp=mtr
Thx Steve ! My next question. .. IF the longer rod - shorter piston combo ONLY adds longevity and no competitive advantage AND we make it OPTIONAL, why not do this ? Seems prudent to replace your rods on a regular basis.
My loyalties lie with those loyal to FC. Goodyear dropped our tires, which many preferred. I, in turn, have dropped Goodyear. Why put Goodyear on my cars & trucks, when they won't put them on my Formula Car ?
Seemingly, at some point in time, FoMoCo decided Formula Ford was not worthy of Factory support. Honda stepped in and provided an excellent alternative that has prompted many new FF's to be built & I've seen them in older FF's, as well.
There has been a changing of the guard in FF.
Apparently, Honda has their sights set on FC, as well. The Zetec has proven to be superior to the Pinto. However, in my limited experience, I don't see Ford actively supporting FC.
IF, it's a big IF, Honda fully intends to support FF, FC & FA with Factory supplied & supported engines, then I believe Honda will be the future of FC.
Consider a Honda Ad campaign featuring newly constructed or retrofitted FF's, FC's and FA's.
This could be the beginning of an exciting Revival of our beloved small bore Formula Cars ! ? ! :)
Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread....
PINTO UPGRADES. Better rod & piston geometry, please... and while were at it... 10 over on the cylinder bores. Let's save the Pinto owners some $$$
This all would be my two cents worth. However, I spent my last two cents at BHF :)
this whole thread strikes me as a "solution" looking for an excuse to provide "help". extreme caution is advised regarding any and all "help" being offered by Topeka! FC competitors have to look no farther than what happened to FFord (as others have pointed out) and recall the competitors there weren't requesting "help".
how many of the Pinto competitors who feel they're down on horsepower to the Zetec are still preparing or having their engine prepared the same way they were 30 years ago? how many are still using 30wt, 40wt, or 50wt oil? bearing clearances greater than 0.0020"? how many are still using some of most painful to look at exhausts in the paddock with their formed rectangular to round transitions, tight bends, mitered joints, and unequal length primary tubes? there is a significant performance cost associated with "pretty baby" factory fresh bodywork with three coats of wax on it! 2-liter Pinto's are notorious for their poor cooling everywhere they've been raced. how tough can it be to be have your to have your 2-liter Pinto align honed, bored, honed, and finished at 180F (ie: HOT)? surely anyone understanding the merits of round cylinders at temperature is already using freeze plug cooling through the side of the block to maximize the probability that all four cylinders are at the same temperature (ie: round). there's NO hope pushing cold water in the front of the block and flowing it aft............. round cylinders at temperature means less ring tension is required for equal or better sealing. less ring tension results in less drag so there's more horsepower at the flywheel and bores last longer! see Kent lubrication sub-system post in FF General Discussion.
changes to the connecting rod rule makes absolutely no sense to me and very likely does nothing to address the root cause of why some competitors are experiencing shorter bottom-end service intervals. when the "slider-crank" Excel based tool was posted for FFord competitors, I had hoped 2-liter competitors would recognize the applicability to their engines..... so here's a deductive kinematics and observation based argument for fixing the real problem causing some competitors to experience shorter bottom-end service intervals that requires three assumptions and an observation.
assumptions:
1.) 2-liter Pinto's are operated over the same rpm range as 1600 Kent's
2.) prepared 2-liter rods have the same percentage of their total weight on the pin end as prepared Kent rods.
3.) the percentage of Kent competitors abusing (not defined) their engines is equal to or larger than 2-liter Pinto competitors abusing their engines.
observation:
Kent competitors aren't screaming and yelling about poor bottom-end service intervals.
per the GCR:
Kent connecting rod weight greater than or equal to 630 grams; a center-to-center length of 4.925 +/- 0.020 inches.
Kent crankshaft stroke (at piston) equals 3.056" plus or minus 0.004"
Kent pistons-515 grams (w/ clips, pins and rings) plus rod from above equals 1145 grams
new/bare Kent +0.005" OD piston (weighed with my electronic balance) = 384 grams
2-liter Pinto connecting rod length must be 5.00 inches (+.005” -.010”).
2-liter Pinto crankshaft stroke - ......the nominal stroke is 76.95mm (aka: 3.030")
2-liter Pinto CP piston P/N IV 2.0 LTR with rings, pin, connecting rod (with
bolts), but without bearings: Minimum permitted weight = 1240 grams.
new/bare 2-liter IV piston (weighed with my electronic balance) = 499 grams
observe that the stroke and rod length for the 2-liter Pinto and the 1600 Kent are effectively equal !!! therefore for the same rod length and stroke, the piston acelleration from slider-crank are the same ! recalling force = mass x acceleration; it's clear the 2-liter bearings are seeing significantly higher loads from the larger reciprocating mass (piston & pin-end of rod). therefore I've concluded the excess bearing capacity protecting Kent abusers is not available to protect 2-liter abusers because of the larger reciprocating mass! abuse in my book is any combination of dry starts with plugs, dry starts with cold oil with plugs, dry starts with cold 30wt, 40wt, or 50wt dinosor goo with plugs, or running the engine with less than 20 psi of oil pressure.................... 2-liter Pinto's prepared to make serious horsepower are racing engines that need to be treated like racing engines and not lawn mowers!
I recommend ALL unsolicited offers of help be marked "return to sender, address unknown" per Elvis!!
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
Still thinking that FI is the way to go.... dump the carb, add manifold, computer, sensors, throttle body, an electric pump and alternator ;-)
Mr. Smith,
Nothing to do with your opinion stated above but you seem to be a rational person and willing to comment;
Correct me if I'm wrong but way back when - weren't side draft carbs widely used for their inherent "flat" torque band over a wide rpm range compared to down draught carbs?
Since the Zetec has this type of induction but in FI form, i.e. even fuel distribution, atomization and mixture at any RPM, engine temp or atmospheric condition, why not up-date the Pintos?
There has to be a fairly inexpensive way to do it.
Lawrence-
without regard to your recollection of history, I see three issues with campaigning for fuel injection for the 2-liter Pinto:
1.) there's no problem with the 2-liter Pinto to fix as it is today. prepared using modern methods and ideas, it's my sense the 2-liter Pinto is more than up to the task all other things even close. it's also my opinion that most Pinto powered cars today are spotting Zetec powered cars 5-10 HPc at the flywheel with the exhaust systems they're being raced with.........................
2.) FC competitors using 2-liter Pinto's would AGAIN be forced to spend money instead of "restrictor" or "weight" adjustments to the Zetec powered cars. 2-liter Pinto owners have paid for ALL of the performance adjustment to date........................
and far more seriously:
3.) it's my view to campaign for fuel injection is an open invitation for "help" from Topeka in the form of another unwanted alternate engine from the alternate engine supplier...................
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
Art,
I'm too young to recall those days...it's all hear-say.
Agreed, restrictor plates, added weight and perhaps other methods to equalize the two power plants are easier/less spendy to do.
There are those that will complain that, "There's simply no room anywhere on the chassis to add weight".
But what are the chances that the Zetec owners are going to want to slide backwards?
Most exhaust systems I've seen are pretty good. What have you seen that makes you believe they are crap?
I'm not campaigning for anything, just putting my ideas out there for public scrutiny:beer:
Art,
Thx for the heads up. I can see where my Pinto can make some EZ HP with a new exhaust header. Are the manifolds a mandated part or are they open to custom fabbing ? Mine is heavy and does not appear to help with exhaust scavenging.
As a complete newb, there are a couple of decades of Pinto engine development that I've got to get up to speed on.
First off I should say I no longer have a dog in the hunt. However many of my friends do. The following are my opinions based on my experiences. Here goes. Although the Honda is not a done deal yet (I don't think) I really don't know why another engine is needed. First the club cars won't convert from the Pinto as their cars aren't worth it. Also most club cars are racing for the enjoyment and can I say more cost constrained. As mentioned earlier in this post their appears that the Zetec has gained HP ground over time and there isn't an agreement over how to handle this yet. How do you plan to bring in another engine and not have horse power creep happen again. Truthfully, no matter what engine you are talking about there has always been some horsepower creep involved. Adding another engine only adds more complexity to handle. Back to the Pinto for a minute. I have successfully for the past few years always found stock junkyard Pinto 2.0L engines without expending very much energy. I never found a shortage of lower end pieces, blocks or heads that were supposedly claimed. Some of these had standard reuseable bores. The allowance of many of the aftermarket rods, pistons, heads, cams & valve train and lightened flywheel have made it a costly upgrade for and Pinto that has been sitting for several years. I never heard how those pieces got approved. My point is look at what I just said and realize that sooner or later all this will happen for the Zetec if it hasn't already. Adding more engines only adds complexity.
Unfortunately, like much of racing, engine costs are really a matter of what level you want to play at. If you want to run a Pinto and keep it at top national performance level it won't take too many rebuilds to pay for a Zetec. Pretty much pay me now or pay me later.....
So if a new engine is incoming with no input here's a few hypothetical/rhetorical questions.
Is the F2000 series going to allow a new motor? They seem to have awfully good parity with all the Zetecs.
No one is complaining about Zetec vs. Zetec parity. Why would a new engine get thrown in to create a parity issue that doesn't exist.
We have enough of a squabble about Pinto vs Zetec parity. How or why do we think we should try to create parity between 3 engines.
So if Honda is seen as the savior of open wheel racing and they're going to bring new life to the industry don't we seen Honda subsidizing the FF conversions? Beside doing the leg work to get it in the SCCA and sell the conversion packages I don't see how they're providing any incentives to make the switch. 15k to convert a modern VD! If they really want to provide the racers a reason to switch they should seriously discount the conversion cost (1/2 off). Their profits are high enough that they can take a hit on the 100 or so conversion kits they've sold. This is a marketing exercise anyways, so it's all sunk cost no matter how you spin it. Trying to recoup some of that expense by charging the club racers who are supplying free advertising is silly. I sure don't want it. I'm fine with my Pinto. I'll live in the dark ages. Oh and btw, if anyone needs parts I've got blocks and heads and cranks for sale. No supply issue here.
I think Dennis makes a great point. If you're going to do a serious campaign there really is no choice to make. However, I'm guessing there are a few people on here, myself included, who would be interested in running some national races or even the occassional pro race if they knew they had a more competitive package. I bought my Pinto knowing full well it would be a solid regional car. But with the Runoffs basically in my backyard next year I am willing to give it a shot because they might not ever again be easier to get to.
We are delusional to think the Zetecs will change. If you look at the pro series there are approximately 25+ Zetecs and 1 Pinto at every race. I don't know the numbers for nationals but I would bet they are similar. It's amazing to me that such a small group wants to rule the roost by campaigning against this upgrade.
This line in the sand stance is really only hurting people like Chris in the pro series, myself, and more than a few others who are willing to spend a little bit of money to hopefully make their car a tad more competitive against the people who are already racing in those series. You're not punishing the Zetecs, you're punishing those people.
I'm not posting to get into the semantics of how we got here, what's happening in FF or any possible future engines, but simply to state that by voting against the Pinto upgrade we will end up exactly where we are now... down on power to the Zetecs.
IMO, the issue here is that there is ZERO agreement on what must be done to create parity between the into and the Zetec. I suggest that you form a formal committee with interested parties on both sides and make a PLAN instead of beating on this horse on the internet. Make sure that you contact members of the FSRAC and the CRB to get their buy in.
This is the ONLY way to make something constructive happen. So stop the internet BS and go to WORK.
I'd also make mention that if your going to try and make a serious racing effort, the cost of the Zetec is really only the tip of the iceberg dollar wise....
If adding the Honda, why not also allow the current USF package with the Mazda engines in as well...what's one more engine package??? Written sarcastically!
There has been nothing put in front of the FSRAC or CRB to date concerning any new engine offerings for FF or FC. As with any rule change, such would be put out for member input before a recommendation were to be made and a final decision rendered by the BOD.
Get to work and earn some money so you can go racing next season!
I converted my Pinto RF99 to Zetec 2 years ago because I got tired of rebuilding Pinto
engines. Having run both a fresh well tuned Nation/Pro Pinto and a "blueprinted" Zetec in the same chassis with the same wing settings at the same tracks I can honestly say that for me there was next to no difference between them in top speed or lap times, given the same set up and driver. Chris Livengood ran a narrow track Pinto close to the front of the field in the Pro series more than once with a less than fresh Pinto in it, against a field of Zetecs.
The Zetec does have more low end torque giving it more area under the curve. It is much easier to gear and drive than a Pinto because of the broader power band. With proper care and feeding it lasts a lot longer between rebuilds. A good Pinto has a tad more pull at the top end of the power band, is a whole lot easier to troubleshoot when it misbehaves, but needs more frequent engine work.
There is speed to be found in other parts of the car too. Most of the Pro cars run low drag ceramic wheel bearings and low friction (and sometimes short lived) trick LD200 builds. Both are performance advantages, both legal, both expensive.
The easiest way to find speed in one of these racecars - take out some wing, put a good set up and a new set of tires on it, and strap in a fast driver.
Respectfully, Tom Drake - Alley Cat Racing