New formula and prototype classes

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Originally Posted by reidhazelton

All true. I wouldn't say I am advocating for a new class - just saying an $80k entry level class isn't sustainable. LIke I said, I don't have the answer but I know the current state won't work for younger people if that is who SCCA wants to attract and still be around in 15 years.

What my friends spend on their street cars is a drop of water in the ocean compared to what a full blown race car costs. One friend is currently saving up for a new turbo. The turbo is $800. He'd be saving up for a long time to buy that Mygale.

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You're advocating for a unicorn. And without any transition plan. If you see the cost of racing as excessive, then, please, how do we reduce costs? I've already pointed out how little Topeka gets per entry. I think you understand the potential liability issues if we retreat on safety. Tracks aren't getting any cheaper to rent. Our volunteer staff, especially corner workers, can get paid by other organizations. The two SCCA Enterprises classes are healthy, one at the top of the heap and one growing after years of stagnation in the face of other formula classes declines.

What is your plan to fix the problem?

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

You're advocating for a unicorn. And without any transition plan. If you see the cost of racing as excessive, then, please, how do we reduce costs? I've already pointed out how little Topeka gets per entry. I think you understand the potential liability issues if we retreat on safety. Tracks aren't getting any cheaper to rent. Our volunteer staff, especially corner workers, can get paid by other organizations. The two SCCA Enterprises classes are healthy, one at the top of the heap and one growing after years of stagnation in the face of other formula classes declines.

What is your plan to fix the problem?

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Maybe it is a unicorn. Very possible.

I'm not going to invest the time to solve all of SCCA's problems. They have made it extremely clear where I can put those ideas, as one of those whiny, spoiled, entitled, loser millennials, they are trying to attract. There are many. Basically, and perhaps over simplified, cost need to come down in terms of costs per event, and the cost for competitive cars. One feeds the other. Entry fees would go down if there were more entrants to spread the fixed costs among. How do you get more entrants? Make the cars less expensive. $80k new cars are going to keep a lot of people out.

As I said a few times, I fear FF has left the barnyard and isn't coming back. The gearboxes are out of production and therefore cost a lot. Buy a new Spectrum for $70k and you get a used box. $12k for a car set of shocks, $500 wheels, one off hub assemblies, $300 rotors, etc. Too much has gotten out of hand I don't see people willing to shelve all those fancy bits for price-capped $800 shocks, spec weight wheels, solid one piece rotors, etc. Between just the engine and the gearbox you have at least $23k in the cost of a new car. In a motorcycle based platform you have cut that to $2k and don't need a bellhouseing either.

There are no easy answers. As Bob said, and Steve quoted, eggs will need to be broken. I don't feel SCCA or the membership can handle that many eggs. If nothing changes, and the current trend continues, I think FF and FC will dwindle and die off. As I see it, it's not a matter of if, but when that happens.

I was just kidding about hanging up all our formula cars and buying FE2's... However, just think how much fun we'd all have if we all showed up with the same car and raced each other. As it stands, when I do show up I'm "racing" against several other classes in open wheel. Perhaps all FE2's or F4's showing up would be better for all ? And use our current cars in vintage or whatever ? Next season I'm prepping my 90 Reynard and 79 Scirocco to go Vintage. Just hoping I don't have to jump out of the Scirroco and straight into the Reynard on race day. I did race 3 different classes on the same day in Karting. TAG, KPV, World Formula.
Fortunately, World Formula was last... made it ez...

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Originally Posted by 924RACR

The attitude that "you can make it happen if you're motivated enough" is the surest way to close the book on amateur formula car racing. Sure, it's possible - but if I wanna bake a cake, why in the name of all that's holy would I choose to start by planting a field of wheat?!? Only stupid or obstinate people choose that path.

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If everybody wanted to bake a cake while nobody planted wheat, nobody's baking anything.

Like I said, it doesn't matter how cheap that **** sandwich is, I'm not buying it. Make it a superb french-dip from Musso & Franks and there's a line out the door at $20 each.

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

If everybody wanted to bake a cake while nobody planted wheat, nobody's baking anything.

Like I said, it doesn't matter how cheap that **** sandwich is, I'm not buying it. Make it a superb french-dip from Musso & Franks and there's a line out the door at $20 each.

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You're making a valid value argument. However, the best value can still be unaffordable for some. That $125k FXX is a steal, but not many can drop that much cash. FRP is a great value, but still expensive and prohibitively expensive for many. Unfortunately, to put your tasty sandwich metaphor on SCCA, they are the pooh sandwich that costs $20.

And now I want french dip. Thanks. ;)

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Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

Those land heavily on the sort of middle-class families from whom SCCA recruited its members. Since 1982, the distribution of income and wealth has skewed heavily toward the 1%, again limiting the number of people with the discretionary income to go racing.

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I'd argue that it takes nowhere near the top 1% income earning bracket to have the discretionary income to go racing. Currently that's $421,926/year in the USA.

The median income in the USA, adjusted for inflation, is higher than it's been at any point in the last 20 years.

The percentage of the population that makes more than the median income and is not part of the 1% is exactly the same as it was at any time in history, by definition. The fact that the median income has increased faster than inflation means we are better off and have more discretionary income than at any point in the last 20 years.

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Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

Motivation and choice certainly factor in. Racing is about as discretionary as discretionary spending gets. Reid was willing to forego the trappings of middle class life, including family, but he is an outlier. Few people would be willing to make those sacrifices. I certainly would not have. We cannot rebuild open wheel racing by demanding that level of sacrifice.

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Agreed. However, it doesn't matter how cheap or how affordable if people don't find value in it (e.g. **** sandwich)

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Originally Posted by reidhazelton

They have made it extremely clear where I can put those ideas, as one of those whiny, spoiled, entitled, loser millennials, they are trying to attract.

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To clarify, I haven't suggested those whiny, spoiled, entitled, loser millennials need to change. I've suggested that the SCCA needs to change to make OW racing more attractive if they want those whiny, spoiled, entitle, loser millennials to make different choices in what they do with their income. You believe it would be more attractive if it were cheaper. I believe it would be more attractive if it were more fun/competitive/more track time/less hassle.

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Originally Posted by reidhazelton

Unfortunately, to put your tasty sandwich metaphor on SCCA, they are the pooh sandwich that costs $20.

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Agreed. I'd suggest lowering the price of said sandwich to $1 is no more the solution than trying to turn it into the Musso & Frank version. The solution is probably somewhere in the middle--maybe a $6 version from Arby's. Which is almost exactly what the Chump car version is.

First day off in a long time. Open Apexspeed and it s deja vu all over again. :)

I paid something like $90 to become a SCCA member again because I was going to the ARRC for the 50th. $90 to just be a member!
Didn't calculate the ROI... :rolleyes:

At the ARRC I was working with Marshal Aiken in his efforts to get his son Porter into FF. We did a couple of days of shopping and asking questions. Now Marshal is no newbie. His team did win the Cooper Series with Jay Howard in 2005. He knows how to spend big money to win. Marshal, his father, and his son have been doing endurance races with two Bimmer sedans. Open trailer, go to track, unload, run the car for 4 hours, load up and go home. This is a family that was heavily invested in SCCA racing in the early 2000s.
Marshal's dad is approaching 75. Walking around the paddock he kept shaking his head. He can't understand why folks spend so much for SCCA racing when it takes three days and a lot of work. He enjoys the endurance series for its ease of use.
Marshal, on the otherhand understands to passion of driving a purpose built race car on the edge. Interesting family dynamic.

My research: A FF weekend with a good pro shop is about $7K plus your travel expenses. Seems about right to me.

There were a flock of SM at the event. And a covey of SRFs. Take a deeper look at those fields and one discovers that the vast majority of those entries are supported by big name prep shops, and the competitors are paying a tidy sum.

When I was 20 much of my interest was focused on prod cars. You know... the race on Sunday, drive on Monday thought process.
Then i raced prod cars. Always wanting to go faster, i modified prod cars. Soon they were not really street cars, Soon after they really needed a trailer. All that and they were just a whole lot of compromises with doors attached, so I entered the purpose built race car world. But, all that said, my start was with street cars at autoX and time trials. (Lucky for me, Butch Kummer would lay out autocross courses that allowed one to hit 4th gear for many seconds at a time.)

Bench racing with Court Dowis we got into a membership discussion. Court just finished up a multi-year term as the Big Shot for Rotary International for like most the state of Georgia. He said in their meetings many old timers talked of getting "young blood" into the organization. Court argued that is was futile. Young adults don't have the finances nor free time to expend in being a member.
It's not until they become established business people, with employees, etc. that they have the resources of time and money to spend on activities that don't put food on the table. I feel its basically the same with SCCA.

In my 20s I worked two jobs to race. When my daughter got up to about 6 it became obvious I had other financial responsibilities. Racing had to go. Then, after her college was paid for, and she was out of the nest, I could come back to racing at the ripe old age of 48. That is so much a reflection of the SCCA demographic.

Reid will be back in 15 years. Just watch. Its an addiction. No cure. Rehab can sometimes hold it at bay for a few years. But, one day you get jolted back because you thought of that one time you almost got the carousel at RA perfect and it felt so good.

I ramble on... but racing has always been the sport of kings. Its expensive. Always has been, always will be. Purpose built race cars are more expensive because they deliver more with less compromises.

Priced outboard motors recently? $1,000 for every 10 HP. Want 100 HP, that will be $10,000. You don't see young adults driving boats either.... Just saying.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving to all at Apexspeed, and especially the Carters. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

To clarify, I haven't suggested those whiny, spoiled, entitled, loser millennials need to change. I've suggested that the SCCA needs to change to make OW racing more attractive if they want those whiny, spoiled, entitle, loser millennials to make different choices in what they do with their income. You believe it would be more attractive if it were cheaper. I believe it would be more attractive if it were more fun/competitive/more track time/less hassle.

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I believe it would be more attainable if it were cheaper. That Enzo is attractive as hell, but that doesn't mean it's affordable. That bomber $20 sandwich can be sprinkled with gold unicorn dust and come with a side of fireworks, but if all you have is $10, no matter how attractive it is you still can't afford it.

I agree with your point, the value of motorsport does need to increase for SCCA. But, that's not the end all solution if the value is still prohibitively expensive. If value was the sole driving force, every FF and FC would be in FRP and non in SCCA. But, for some, the resources are not there to commit to FRP.

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

...

The median income in the USA, adjusted for inflation, is higher than it's been at any point in the last 20 years.

The percentage of the population that makes more than the median income and is not part of the 1% is exactly the same as it was at any time in history, by definition. The fact that the median income has increased faster than inflation means we are better off and have more discretionary income than at any point in the last 20 years.

...

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Median inflation-adjusted household income is slightly higher than 20 years ago. See: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

However, I disagree about 'more discretionary income'. Consider college tuition, a major expense, whether borne by parents or students. From the College Board's 2017 price study (the latest that I could find quickly):

Private nonprofit four-year institution

• Tuition for 1987-1988: $15,160
• Tuition for 1997-1998: $21,020
• Tuition for 2007-2008: $27,520
• Tuition for 2017-2018: $34,740

Public four-year institution

• Tuition for 1987-1988: $3,190
• Tuition for 1997-1998: $4,740
• Tuition for 2007-2008: $7,280
• Tuition for 2017-2018: $9,970

Tuition is rising much faster than the overall cost of living.

A data point: My wife and I are paying my step-daughter's college tuition. A year's tuition, books, and ancillary costs/fees (not housing) at a state university equates roughly to the cost of a year's racing. Those are the kinds of trade-offs facing middle-class families.

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

Then, perhaps, it has nothing to do with anything you've been advocating and much to do with the diminished attraction to formula car racing vs production based classes.

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Holy smokes. I agree with Peter Olivola 100%. There's always a first time for everything. ;)

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Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

However, I disagree about 'more discretionary income'. Consider college tuition, a major expense, whether borne by parents or students. From the College Board's 2017 price study (the latest that I could find quickly):

Private nonprofit four-year institution

• Tuition for 1987-1988: $15,160
• Tuition for 1997-1998: $21,020
• Tuition for 2007-2008: $27,520
• Tuition for 2017-2018: $34,740

Public four-year institution

• Tuition for 1987-1988: $3,190
• Tuition for 1997-1998: $4,740
• Tuition for 2007-2008: $7,280
• Tuition for 2017-2018: $9,970

Tuition is rising much faster than the overall cost of living.

A data point: My wife and I are paying my step-daughter's college tuition. A year's tuition, books, and ancillary costs/fees (not housing) at a state university equates roughly to the cost of a year's racing. Those are the kinds of trade-offs facing middle-class families.

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Having two fairly recent college graduates myself, one with a Master's degree, I am well aware of how much tuition costs have increased. Living in Southern California, I am also aware of the housing costs far outpacing other line items on the CPI. Being self-employed, we are also aware of the huge increases in health-care premiums. Those are 3 big ticket items that have risen faster than inflation, so there must be about 198,997 things that haven't risen as fast in order for inflation rate to be what it is. That's just math.

Check out this view of kids having fun with cars... lots of time and money spent...
Maybe they didn't have college loans...

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ne...tomation+Email

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

Check out this view of kids having fun with cars... lots of time and money spent...
Maybe they didn't have college loans...

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ne...tomation+Email

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I thought the kiddies didn't like cars? That's what were told. Hum?

Still, any of those is was cheaper than a race car. You can finance it, and drive it to work, and don't need a second one to pull the first one around to a special place to drive it.

That's a funny way to look at it. "Ok, so here is a really expensive car. But, you need to buy a cheaper car to pull it around with, and you can only drive the expensive car on weekends, on a specific 2-3 mile piece of asphalt, usually 4 hours away. You have to work on it for 20 hours for every hour your drive it. So, how many do you want?"

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Originally Posted by reidhazelton

I thought the kiddies didn't like cars? That's what were told. Hum?

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Actually, we've been told the kiddies don't have money for such things. . . ;)

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

Holy smokes. I agree with Peter Olivola 100%. There's always a first time for everything. ;)

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Apexspeed can now proclaim Mission Accomplished, and fold its tent. :)

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

Actually, we've been told the kiddies don't have money for such things. . . ;)

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You left out the second part where I said a modded street car is still far cheaper than a full blown race car. We have $10k for fancy parts for a street car that is spread out over several years, but don't have $100k to go racing with recurring expenses. Apples, oranges.

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Originally Posted by reidhazelton

You left out the second part where I said a modded street car is still far cheaper than a full blown race car.

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I didn't address the point because, believe it or not, I didn't want to seem any more argumentative than I might already appear. ;)

My son and I raced karts for about 10 years before I bought the Reynard. We both raced, mostly in 2 strokes. Two day weekends ran around $500.00 all in for both of us. I helped him get his SCCA competition license and then we both did an arrive & drive together in SRF at BIR on the July Trans Am weekend. That was $10k with his crash damage. We had to race open wheel with SRF. Two laps to go and an FC dive bombs Michael in Turn 6 as Michael is coming off the apex. FC runs under left front and tosses him in the air, off the track and into the outside wall. Not the best first time racing wheel to wheel. $10k and I thought it was money well spent. Sadly, my son just didn't inherit the need for speed like dad. I've always had labor intensive hobbies. Flying, boating, street rods, karting ( far more time prepping & repairing crash damage, along with set up changes all day long) and finally, Road Racing. Ya gotta luv this sport to put in the time & money to race. Karting, roundy-round, road racing. It's a way of life. Not just a hobby.

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

I didn't address the point because, believe it or not, I didn't want to seem any more argumentative than I might already appear. ;)

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There is no room for that mentality on apexspeed. ;)

The family vetoed me taking the mid-engine VW to Daytona this weekend. :( OBTW, they always vetoed racing on TurkeyDay weekend also...

Here's what i'm thinking about the 7,000 cars on display at Daytona this weekend... Some of those kids will want to go faster and faster, and at some point they will migrate into purpose built race cars... About the time they are 50... perfect for the SCCA demographic. ;)

Here's my take on the decline of formula car racing. They are all afraid of getting hurt. Period, end of discussion. You read it here. Take it to the bank. It ain't the cost, it's the perception of lack of safety.

Thinking folks (and their spouses) want crushable structure (aka fenders), roll cages, roofs, etc. There is an illusion of safety with all that extra stuff. Thus the growth of SM and SRF. Even Indycar and F1 have mandated halos. I've had folks look at me like i'm insane when they discover I'm laying against the fuel tank. Just saying.

Who in their sensible mind would race with their feet in a DB-1 footwell?
Hell, after the wrecks I've seen, even I don't want to get in a vintage chassis.

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

Here's my take on the decline of formula car racing. They are all afraid of getting hurt. Period, end of discussion. You read it here. Take it to the bank. It ain't the cost, it's the perception of lack of safety.

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There's probably a whole lot of truth to that. I have a friend who has been road racing, very actively, since 1986. Prior to that he was racing motocross. I tried to lure him into open wheel ranks a couple of decades ago, to no avail. He's much more leery of getting into a wall, t-boned or on his head in an open wheeler than a production-based car. He's not having any of it, and neither is his wife.

I'm certain everybody who races/has raced open wheel has tried to get at least one of our closed-wheel friends to see the light. Mostly to no avail. I had success with one out of who knows how many.

Honestly ! I'm much safer on track than any of the public roads here in Minnesota. 30k fatalities every year on our nation's highways & byways. I do a lot HPDE & Law Enforcement instructing. Even they don't scare me like the idiots on our roads ! Pit maneuver & high speed pursuit are my favorites ! Seriously, race cars today are incredibly safe ! And, we're generally all going in the same direction ! ????

I agree with Reid's comments.

What OW RACING NEEDS TO SURVIVE IS A CLASS THAT IS AS FAST AS FF BUT COSTS ABOUT $30,000 TO BUY! AND IT IS NOT F500-600

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Originally Posted by Jnovak

I agree with Reid's comments.

What OW RACING NEEDS TO SURVIVE IS A CLASS THAT IS AS FAST AS FF BUT COSTS ABOUT $30,000 TO BUY! AND IT IS NOT F500-600

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I didn’t see Reid say that. I’ve heard about this magical 30 k & under car for many, many years. It never seems to be built. You have F4 which is cheapish to buy, consumables, entry fees, travel bring the costs up which Reid has mentioned.

Frog is correct as he said many times...racing is a sport of Kings. There are lots of youngsters racing, just SCCA Club events is not the venue they choose for many reasons.

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

You're advocating for a unicorn. And without any transition plan. If you see the cost of racing as excessive, then, please, how do we reduce costs? I've already pointed out how little Topeka gets per entry. I think you understand the potential liability issues if we retreat on safety. Tracks aren't getting any cheaper to rent. Our volunteer staff, especially corner workers, can get paid by other organizations. The two SCCA Enterprises classes are healthy, one at the top of the heap and one growing after years of stagnation in the face of other formula classes declines.

What is your plan to fix the problem?

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More entries!

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Originally Posted by Jnovak

More entries!

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How?

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

How?

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1. Encourage more racing by:
A. Allow regional qualifications for the runoffs
B. Reduce the number of classes by combining and performance adjustments as needed
C. Create new very low cost classes where appropriate. This is easier than it sounds!
D. Work much harder on getting corporate sponsors. (I know how little the corporate shooters think
of the SCCA)
E. Reduce the cost to build competitive cars by requiring the use of lower cost spec components where appropriate. Look at what the circle track industry does. Copy their business models!

THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHERS WHO HAVE OTHER IDEAS.

[QUOTE=Jnovak;593499]1. Encourage more racing by:
A. Allow regional qualifications for the runoffs There already is a regional path to the Runoffs
B. Reduce the number of classes by combining and performance adjustments as needed Every class reduction has cost entries
C. Create new very low cost classes where appropriate. This is easier than it sounds! Seriously? Add classes? Who's going to make the investment in producing cars for a new class?
D. Work much harder on getting corporate sponsors. (I know how little the corporate shooters think
of the SCCA) I always love the "work harder" approach to problem solving.
E. Reduce the cost to build competitive cars by requiring the use of lower cost spec components where appropriate. Look at what the circle track industry does. Copy their business models! Not going to work with existing classes unless it's forced on the class and I think it's likely this would have the same effect as combining classes. If it's for a new class see the answer to "C" above.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHERS WHO HAVE OTHER IDEAS.[/QUOTE}

Jay, please look closely at what you're proposing. Class reduction and creating a new class are the worst of what SCCA does. These are clearly formula car focused ideas whereas the club doesn't see the same issues outside formula cars. Your idea still ignores the external factors that have driven the decline in formula car racing.

If this is truly a OW vs. CW issue, with similar costs and similar performance why are there so many more FE cars being raced than there are ESR's in P2? Essentially same car with a sports-car body. Little more drag, little more weight, little more cost. So obviously the FE is more speed for the money, but if the allure of closed-wheels is really a thing, why aren't the ESR's more popular in P2? Are they so uncompetitive in the class it's not worth it? Can they be detuned to race competitively against SRF3? I'm quite ignorant of these classes, what's the situation?

To start off, let me say this is not a personal attack on anyone, it is just my opinion about the formation of the new FX and Px classes.
The bottom line is the SCCA is a business and it is currently losing market share due to various reasons. Some self-inflicted, some simply due to changing demographics.
I have been a member off and on, over the last 38 years, and throughout this time there has been several attempts to grow the club. Some have worked. Others have failed and the failed attempts never seem to go away.
For full disclosure I didn’t renew my membership this year. I am going flying. Not as satisfying as racing, but it is a lot less of a pita.
I don’t see the economic factors, that everyone has stated early, changing anytime soon, and we are on the cusp of a major change in social norms in this country.
With the talk of democratization, free this, and free that, it is getting difficult to produce a profit dealing with the masses. So, you either accept lower profits or you change your clientele.
Which, I believe, is reason for the formation of FX / PX.
The open wheel / prototype classes are not under siege by the SCCA they are dying form their own actions. You can add your reasons / excuses here, but fact is fact. Even the big boys, F1, Indy, Nascar are all facing the same problem.
So, if I need to make a strategic change to my business, why not start with the less participated groups? (Um – I think I remember someone suggesting that everyone needs to get their cars out of garage and race)
To do this, I start two “garbage can” classes where I can slowly dump classes that no longer sustain the participation levels that I deem necessary for profitability. Drive the participants to other organizations. (Um – maybe I will give them an incentive of inviting them to the big dance for a couple of years)
If I have my own classes to back fill them, e.g... the Enterprise cars, F4, F3, and I figure out how to start making Matias all the easier.
Now that I have these new whizzy formula classes where everything is “even”, a popular word with the new hipsters, and they look similar to an F1 car, junior can talk Dad into paying the $7k to whatever a weekend to race so he can become the next F1 world champion.
The new father/son combo doesn’t want to work on anything. Doesn’t care about owning anything. They don’t care about the club; they just want to race and are wiling to pay the cost to participate.
So, the club gets the new car sale revenue. The prep shops are making money, the club can raise entry fees and membership dues because of the new well healed demographic. Less race groups. More available track time. The club hears less whining. All the “old vintage cars” are gone. Life is good.

Mission accomplished and now let’s work on the tin tops.

There is not just one answer, just like there is not just one reason for open wheel's present situation.

In part, it depends upon which open wheel we are discussing. Regional or Majors/Runoffs? Existing owners or new players? Self-supporting or prep shop customers? SCCA only or SCCA plus other players like FRP etc.?


With that said, my two cents:


1. Create a new, low-cost class. The very last thing the Club needs is another class. All that accomplishes is to subdivide even further the entry pool.


We have annual discussions about the unicorn $30K FF-level performance race car. It simply is not a viable business proposition. At the other end of the spectrum, we have the $80K FF. This may be a necessity if you are a 15-year-old racing on Dad's checkbook. Not so much if you are a club racer with no ambition to win the Runoffs. A perfectly good DB-1 can be had for $20K or less.


2. The second-last thing the Club needs to do is arbitrarily to combine classes (with performance adjustments). Every time the Club does this, it loses people (see: GP, GT-4/5).


In practice, I see little point in reducing the number of classes. At Regionals (and Majors), the critical measure is run groups. Combine FC, FE, FM into FZ, and they all still run in the same group. For the Runoffs, there is a simple selection process, based on entries.


At the national level (Majors, Runoffs) let strong classes prosper, and weak classes wither. At the regional level, there will always be room for most any class. If there is a local population of Formula Renault cars, the Region will happily include them.


Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see much future for FX (any more than FS, ASR, GTX). It seems like an effort to get oddball/orphan cars into Majors, but otherwise an evolutionary dead end.


3. Control costs. Start with spec tires - something inexpensive and durable. Maybe limit stickers to 4 per event. Lower entry fees (see below). There is little we can do about the cost of gasoline, hotel rooms, or meals.


4. Make racing more welcoming. Create a clearly defined and branded 'ladder' - autox, PDX, time trials, road racing. The Club is making strides here. Not everybody ends up in open wheel, but the more entries overall, the better.


Focus on group identity. Look at the successful classes (SM, SRF3, FE2) - they tend to have a strong class community, paddock together, socialize together, help each other. When I was thinking about getting into FF, I posted here, made a couple of local connections, and went from there. Formula racing can have a steep learning curve - welcome and nurture newcomers.


5. Success breeds success. The more people racing their Fn, the more attractive the experience, and the more likely that others will join in. Classes have pulled themselves back from the brink by effort and mutual assistance (GTL is a recent example).


Entry fees are a highly visible expense. Regions have little control over entry fees; they are mostly fixed costs because of track rental and track services. Very few Regions can afford to drop their price in hopes of making it up in volume. Region finances are just that tight. The best way to lower entry fees is to increase entry counts.


It all becomes a virtuous circle - more entries with lower unit costs makes for better racing, which makes for more entries.


We have to accept that much of this is out of the Club's control. We are talking about thousands of individual decisions, based in large part on the greater economy and family finances. We can make a difference at the margin, though.

I totally accept that there are some issues with my suggestions however the club has already started to eliminate or combine OW classes so much of that argument is moot.

On another note, I have been designing and building OW formula cars since 1985 and I and a couple of other small builders who wanted to build my cars have built and sold over 50 very low cost OW F500, F600 & FB cars! So the reality is that I think that I understand the design performance cost issues involved. Thus with some careful design and rules writing I think, and I am not alone, that it is very possible both financially and logistically to design and build a low cost ow race car that could initially fit into the catch all FX class. Thus if the sales grow big enough it could then be moved to its own new class or race in a regional series we are considering.



I'm am not at liberty to discuss more but we are currently working on a prototype now. I can also state that I am not alone on this project.

Of course if the SCCA has no interest there are others that do.

I race a CFC car with the GLC. The GLC racers promote the class with an Instagram and a web page. We try to educate everyone who will listen how awesome these cars are to drive and what a great value they are. The GLC gets lots of positive feedback and there is lots of talk of cars returning to the group with new drivers in 2020. If they show up that's awesome, if they don't that won't stop us from our efforts. We are doing our part to keep the interest in the FC/CFC class going.

Formula car / sports racer style racing in the US has, as I see it, has some basic problems that we may have little control of.

#1 Acquisition versus Operation Cost

A big negative to people is the acquisition cost of even used purpose built cars is significantly higher. You can spend $50-70,000 for a new FF or F4 car versus a turn-key B-spec car or pro-built miata, which is half that price or less.

The difference comes in OPERATION costs. When we were winning Formula Mazda championships I know for a fact we were spending less over a season than people running up front in Spec Miata. The Formula F's are even cheaper to run especially after the spec tires. This is especially true given that a decently built purpose built car is an order of magnitude less difficult to work on than most production cars.

If I were to prep a Spec Miata at the same level I prep a Formula F, I'd have to charge at least 25% more due to the fact that certain jobs are such a royal pain in the backside to do on tin-tops.

The problem comes when people see price tags for parts and the individual pieces (often smaller than the stuff on the tin-tops) have eye-popping price tags on them compared to what you can buy Miata parts for at Advance Auto Parts.


#2 Parts Availability

If I'm racing a Mazda Miata, a BMW 325, or Nissan 240SX, and I break a ball joint, or need a master cylinder or a clutch I can run down to the local Advance Auto parts or car dealer and there's a good chance they either have it or can have it the next day. This isn't so with even the best purpose built car, let alone the relics that have been out production a quarter century or more.

Even the folks with the money to buy a car & the mechanical skill to prep it can get discouraged by one weekend that ends Saturday morning because the part they need to continue is only made by one little old guy up in the mountains of Saskatchewan.

Spec parts can have this problem, too even if they're readily available. Generally the only way to be able to practically enforce them is you have to specify a particular brand & part #. It sucks if you find an aftermarket replacement at Autozone and end up getting disqualified or protested even though said part isn't really giving you an advantage.


#3 Steep Learning Curve

Even if you manage to find someone willing to build glorified go-karts and pass them off as race cars for under $20,000 or whatever you think is the magical price point, you're still faced with dealing with the nature of the beast.

Formula / Sports racer cars are extremely lightweight, and even without downforce they're very sensitive both to driver inputs and chassis settings. Low-cost "spec" cars often have really weird quirks due to the economic realities of their construction. The point is that even for experienced racers who've never raced purpose-built cars they can be difficult to drive, let alone set up.

The best thing about a purpose built car is that it responds to every little thing you do. It's also the biggest detriment. When I go back to racing tin-tops I have to remind myself I've got to manhandle that car more. Things that you need to do just to get a tin-top to turn (especially a front-wheel drive car) will either slow you down or put you in a wall in a formula car. Anyone with decent eye-hand co-ordination & the right level of bravery or stupidity can hop into a basic tin-top and be reasonably quick. I won my 2nd driver school race and that was in the days when more than a dozen people showed up for an SCCA school, could run mid-pack in a regional, and got regular podiums in IT back win meant something.

I spent my first year in open wheel cars getting my ass handed to me every weekend. Not everyone is as stubborn as I am.

The same is true of set-ups. Even a non-downforce car needs more precise tuning than any production car. Again the light weight and the nature of the construction means that little things matter more (even on old rocker-arm cars).

When I raced production cars at SCCA regionals we put the car on a scale pad before the weekend, and usually did toe with tape measures & aluminum plates. We didn't even start bringing scale pads to the track until we went pro racing. I don't even see most of the Spec Miata prep shops setting up scale pads at the track.

Just like how it responds to every little thing the driver does, very small things matter in Formula cars. Most of them are optimized for a certain ride height range, and in some that's range of only a couple millimeters. We used to do some interesting things with preload in the old rocker-arm Formula Mazdas (and being off on rear camber by couple tenths of a degree was the difference between winning a race or having your tires fall off big time), and so on. You need access to a good scale platen for at least a good baseline setup as well as a lot more precise tools.

You have to be a lot more scientific about how you do setups, and more meticulous about keeping notes. Even very basic formula cars have a lot more things you can adjust (or screw up if you don't jig a-arms properly when fixing crash damage), which means if you're not experienced or careful you can go down quite the rabbit hole engineering your decently-working car into a complete pig.

Add significant downforce to the equation & things get even more complicated.

For people looking into getting into formula cars, the sight of everyone with $5,000 or more in setup gear along with the car in the paddock can be a bit of a turnoff. You don't realize this until you bring new people to the track for the first time. I have a couple friends that think I'm some kind of rocket scientist now (something my colleagues in the sport will probably find hilarious).

Some people think that they can get around these issues with harder compound slicks or treaded tires. This is a myth. For one thing, good car prep will always beat crappy car prep (all other things being equal). A badly handling car on R25 slicks is still going to be a badly handling car on Dunlop street tires, it's just going a little slower when it hits the wall.

Plus, if you go to far with the crappy tire thing you end up with an experience that's all kinds of Not Fun. I've had good success at rain racing, but that doesn't mean I want to be constantly fighting for grip on a perfectly sunny day.


#4 Size Matters

Formula cars look flimsy. The cockpits of many of them are essentially steel & fiberglass or carbon fiber coffins. The suspension is delicate. You can talk physics until you're blue in the face but a lot of people are going to look at a "big car" and say that it looks safer. I've lost customers because wives / girlfriends have talked them into getting into "safer" cars.

Then there's this: If I have a production car there's a whole host of track days and "driver events" I can take that car to either to gain seat time or tune it. Many of these events offer more time than the typical Thursday or Friday test day before a race weekend.

Even if the organizers are crazy to let you take your sports racer or formula car to that event, it's a profoundly bad idea. You're in a vehicle with its highest point sitting just below a production car's window-sill. You're practically invisible to their side-view mirrors. If you spin & get collected by a car that weighs triple your race car, it's going to be a very bad day.

The point is this not only cuts down the options for owner-drivers, but prep shops. I know a lot of prep shops that use track days to try out new customers or for driver development. They're low pressure events, and it opens up that many more opportunities for the shop to gain revenue in a year (and thus means they either make more money or can afford to charge a little less for racing events).

This isn't an option for formula cars. You're stick with either full-blown race events, test days before the full-blown racing events, or privately renting a track. If you're trying someone completely new to racing or fresh out of Karts, you don't really have any lower-cost options for driver tryouts.


#5 The Economy has Changed

When you adjust for inflation, racing hasn't really gotten THAT much more expensive. True, if you adjust the price of a Swift from the old Road & Track article back in the day I think it comes out to something like $42,000 in 2019 dollars, which is cheaper than those $60,000+ Spectrums & Mygales but maybe that's the reason Swift is making parts for airplanes and not race cars any more.

People like to cite circle track but short track racing has been in a rapid die-off for the last decade. The fact of the matter is that while the actual overall cost of racing has either stayed stable or increased slightly (15-20%), disposable incomes have actually shrunk.

As people have pointed out, health care insurance & college tuition costs have exploded in the last 25 years, and the Millennials that would be the most likely candidates for "new blood" in racing are smarting from the combination of bigger student loan debt and the fact they entered the workforce in the worst recession since 1929. Even "low cost" racing isn't low cost enough for them. If you're paying $2,000 for a student loan, $2,000 for a mortgage or apartment that's eating up a big chunk of even a good wage.


#6 The Culture has Changed

We're now into two generations of children that have been essentially raised as if they're made of glass. For two decades or so they're subject to a combination of scary stories about how dangerous the world is while simultaneously subjecting to a whole bunch of rules with often Kafkaesque enforcement. Letting your kids play outside alone for even a few minutes means they'll get raped and murdered. Everyone gets a trophy for participating in gym. If you use the wrong pronoun you'll get thrown out of school until you undergo mandatory sensitivity training.

This creates a culture of people that are extremely risk averse (even to the risk of just being disappointed) or not really interested in any endeavor that has lots of rules associated with it.

In the former case any activity where you're required to wear a helmet so your skull doesn't crushed, a HANS device to keep your neck from being broken, and a nomex suit so you don't get burn to a crisp is not exactly attractive to a generation that's been raised in an environment where one is offered counseling services if the Dave Chapelle show made them feel "unsafe."

In the latter case, someone who's looking forward to life as a free adult might not want to participate in an activity with a rulebook with more strictures than the Old Testament and crabby officials and petty bureaucrats. For them 18-22 years of having old people telling them what to do was already enough.


I don't know what we can do about most of this stuff, because honestly a lot of it is out of our control. The best I can think of is just being respectful & helpful to new people that show up. One of the things that kept me going in the early days were the people that took the time to help out: even if it was just as simple as asking whatever annoying question I had at the time.

Raceworks hit on a lot of things but the one I am focusing on is the comment about car type and the driver's significant other.

I have to just about every "Country Club" race track faclity in the country. Probably talked to a couple hundred drivers over last few years.

Conversation was always about whether there was a market or a reasonable "sports proto" car for the track day/CC groups.Yes something like, but cheaper than the Riley track day sport proto they came up with a few years ago.
And the consistent response was:

1.) Prefer $50K price point, can handle $80-90K price point.
2.) A very large minority were okay up to $125K
3.) Most all wanted two seats
4.) Most all wanted closed cockpit.
5.) Most all worried about upkeep and complexity of car. Could they run it as "one" man team?
6.) Would need a trailer, and that means a truck. So add $25k and up on costs.
7.) Didn't like the tire usage and costs. Too expensive.
8.) Didn't like needing spare tires and wheels, rain tires mounted, etc.
9.)Etc.

But number one issue-biggest issue was: Could they get the wife to "buy in" on getting this type car. Answer was almost always--NO!

Heard this a lot:

1.) No way will you drive that thing. (LMP3 car, as example). That is real race car for real drivers. You will get killed in it.
2.) I love you dear sweet hubby but you are an idiot. Never gonna happen.
3.) My wife is okay with me buying a $200-$300 K Porsche Cup car because it looks like (and I tell her it is) a street Porsche, like what I drive on street, plus wifey has a Cayenne anyway. So she will "indulge" my foolishness here, I will have to buy her a kitchen remodel or something in exchange and she will look at me like I am an idiot but this I can do. Get into that thing (Again-LMP3 car) and she will divorce me.

I tried pushing an open cockpit sports proto at first (Costs) and was actually told by some wives a couple of times to i(n a gentle way) "Go away and never come back trying to sell my husband something so dangerous as that! (It was a Norma CN car)

So Raceworks hit it head on about that aspect of things. No matter who well off hubby is-the wife actual has control of the checkbook.

!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lmpdesigner

No matter who well off hubby is-the wife actual has control of the checkbook.

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Yup - very true for a lot of guys. Lew Cooper always had to spend the same on things his wife wanted - house renovations, etc - so when he upgraded or bought a new car from us, so a 60K car automatically became a 120K car!

Wow, that sounds expensive. I just gave my wife my old racecar... though it does cut into my prep time for my racecar, having to prep two cars now...