FA/FB Consolidation

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Originally Posted by Phil Creighton

For those involved since the beginning - why aren't you running in Nationals. We have 8 total entries in the SE in 10 races.

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Are you talking to me? ;)


My car has been completely rebuilt after the ARRC, so CMP was the 1st event I could run. Didn't run at Road Atlanta because I have a couple items to address following CMP, plus it was the next weekend and besides having a job I've also got a wife and daughter.

Besides that, the runoffs has had little appeal and I've got friends who can only run regionals. Run by myself at nationals or with buds at regionals?

I'm a bit torn as I like racing as the fun, social event it can be, yet I want to build national numbers... also thought we had 5 years to get the numbers up- that is what we were told.

I don't have a problem with allowing FB to run with FA at the runoffs but feel its not fair to the classes that meet numbers. Almost a slap in the face when you consider FB did not earn national status to begin with! What's wrong with just allowing the top 24?


Have the Runoffs at Indy and I'll run every national I can plus attend the runoffs.

Otherwise, I'll run events that appeal to me at tracks I want to run and have fun. The car is exactly what I'd hoped it would be- fast & sweet. I can't imagine wanting to run a diifferent type of car.

Phil
I must say that had the board used a little forethought about how to write and implement this proposal then you would not be scrambling and backpeddling at this point in time. There is enough experienced people on the BOD that should have known better.

Fred Michael

I agree Lee. FC, FE & FM might be a good combination for consolidation. I am certain there would be a lot of dissent but these cars all turn lap times within 1 second of each other & getting equality should be pretty easy.

I also suggest that FFord & F500 should be combined. The top cars turn the same lap times so equalization should be fairly easy. Just give the F500s a low $$$ spec shock & there would be a lot of hard racing.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

If laptime is the determining factor then CSR and DSR should run with GT1. All are fendered purpose built racecars with very similar laptimes. Should be no problem at all.

I also suggest that FFord & F500 should be combined. The top cars turn the same lap times so equalization should be fairly easy. Just give the F500s a low $$$ spec shock & there would be a lot of hard racing.

Thanks ... Jay Novak


Jay, Please don't go there !

Thanks, Mike Agnifilo

Great idea!! Except for perhaps the 1500 to 2000 lb weight difference. I never said lap times was the only determing factor. It is actually just one of many, such as lap times, car size, weight, hp, visibility etc.

Note that the cars I mentioned are all open wheel with very similar weights, lap times, size etc.

PS: I think that the cosolidation of CSR & DSR is potentially a good thing. I suspect that the poor S2 guys are getting the shaft no matter what happens as they will probably loose national status if not combined & if combined will get their butts very trounced.

Thanks ... Jay

Why not Mike? The only guys who will get hurt are the mid-pack to back F500 guys. When we did F500 we loved to race with the Fords as it really meant something special when Brian could beat them.

There are about 6 or 7 guys in F500 who can run with the Fords. This is really about getting the chassis to work as good as a regular formula car & the mid pack guys have a tough time making the chassis work that good. If F500 had ANY kind of a cheap shock/spring package it would be wild racing with about 30 cars a race. Great fun in my opinion, but not many share my opinion on this so it will never happen. Do not worry.

Thanks ... Jay

You've convinced me. FA and FB should be consolidated.

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Originally Posted by Wren

(snip)

Why would anyone buy an FB to run in regionals? Just a tiny bit more gets you in an FC with two good pro series, national racing, and a run-offs invite.
(snip)

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Okay, I'll tackle this one. Here in the San Francisco area we can run one National that is local, then spend the rest of the year driving to southern California, Oregon, Washington, maybe Las Vegas or Arizona to chase National points; OR We can race 12 races at three different tracks that are all within 2-3 hours away (Laguna Seca, Sears Point and Thunderhill), in a run group that has a bunch of fast cars to race with. Our Stohr is fun to run with this group!

Sorry, Nationals really don't have the cachet if you're running on your own money.

Marty

I've tried to run 3-4 national races in 2008, but have had bad luck (somewhat self imposed).

I know there are a lot of FB cars under construction, and I'm pretty sure that many of them expected to be running by now, but for different reasons aren't track ready yet.

The FB numbers will climb soon. Novak kit #1 has made it to the track. I assume others will follow after Glenn Cooper's successful debut. The class will be joined by the many cars currently under construction, along with new Stohrs, Phoenix's, etc.

Some of the new F1000 drivers, maybe stepping into a very fast car for the first time, are more comfortable racing in regional level races. They may move up when they're feeling better about their speed.

The BOD directors should not make inaccurate assumptions based on the numbers thus far.

I still see little to no action taken on the issue that the BoD was supposed to be addressing: getting people again excited about running Nationals. Somehow having fewer classes is supposed to make folks want to run for the Runoffs yelling and screaming with longer tows and more expensive entry fees?:confused:

I think you have a number of factors that are dragging National numbers down. Many of them have been discussed in great detail on a number of threads.

From the Rumor Mill:

"If it doesn’t have fenders, has wings and runs the same lap times and often mixes overall grids across the country, why are there different classes in National competition?"

If this logic applies, then there is no reason to have FE, FM and FC running separately. Also, since Justin is within 2 seconds of Hans Peter, then let's consolidate FB and FA. Then let's combine FF and F500. How does this get people to run more Nationals? I am obviously confused, because I just don't see how combining classes leads to more participation.

"To summarize, consolidation is viewed as a part of the equation to help elevate National Racing and National Championship racing to where many members believe it should be. These consolidations could, or could not, be implemented Regionally. In the end, the Task Force focused on the National program with regard to consolidation recommendations—which eventually ended with 18 Nationally-recognized classes with every current car having a home within the 18."

Where's the rest of the equation? It must be a secret to be dropped like a smart bomb from a B-2 at a a later date.

I left SCCA because of the bone-headed crap happening on a regular basis. FB got me excited about racing again. Unfortunantly, the bone-headed crap is still happening.

I'm with Sean O. on the Run-Offs. Have it at Indy, and I'll bust my butt to get there. Anywhere else, and I'd rather stay close to home, maybe race a couple more regional weekends instead, and probably have more fun.:beer:

With the current economy, I just don't see big wads of disposable income flowing from every orifice to be spent on motorsports or other "luxury" items. Have you noticed how many motorhomes are for sale at excellent prices lately?

Share the vision at one time, or better yet, let the evolution, birth, and death of classes run their course. Letting the market and the customers decide (instead of telling them) what they want seems to be rather successful in most situations.

How many people with "cars in their garage" on the TF are impacted by consolidation? I'm guessing the number is close to zero.

As they say, numbers do not lie. If we make the numbers, the BOD has little choice but to recognize the class's appeal and back off on this nonsense.

Right now we are our own worst enemies. We are not getting the numbers out, simple as that.

If we had maintained our momentum from last year none of this would be happening. Excuses are useless and hollow. We are not pulling our weight this year and it is a shame. Stop your bitching and get your cars out (and sorry but we all know that only Nationals count)...

If you guys just wanted to f*ck around drinking beer and running regionals with your buddies, you should have built Spec Miatas and not gotten the rest of us all revved up about this really cool class.

There are still 3 Nationals left in the SE and most of the schedule in the NE/CEDIV. The west coast guys are helping the numbers. Do your part and the numbers will speak for themselves. Or don't and the class will probably die on the vine...

Sean

P.S. All this being said. I hold each and every BOD member personally, ethically and legally responsible for honoring their 5 year committment to the class. If they insist on betraying us I will take every available option to ensure that they pay dearly for their actions. I am ready to crack some skulls...

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Originally Posted by Sean Maisey

If you guys just wanted to f*ck around drinking beer and running regionals with your buddies, you should have built Spec Miatas and not gotten the rest of us all revved up about this really cool class.

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I don't think you want to go there. I'm biting my tongue big time.

Russ,

You should have seen the original version of the post :)

Sorry to say it in public, but this year has been a very big disappointment so far for F1000. We are not getting the cars out when we all knew long before the latest BOD craziness that this was a make or break year for us.

Where is everyone? What happened to the 10/10ths Stohrs. Where are the ARRC participants? Where are the Citations? etc...

From your response I guess I hit a nerve... GOOD! Use that energy in a positive way. Go run the Savannah July Fry and the CMP Nats and show me how wrong I am. I double dog dare you!

The three of you that ran CMP could have run the RA Nat instead. It would have been much better for the class. We are close to making the top 24 and every entry is precious. Instead those entries are wasted. (Sorry but it is the truth).

Sean

PS. Don't bite your tongue. I am a big boy.

Jay, You have left out the cost factor, I think. I assume F500 is much cheaper than FF.
Is it fair to combine classes of widely varying cost? Who would buy a FF if a much cheaper F500 could win the race.
Now the fact that glorified lawn mowers can run with FF's says more about the age of the FF rules than the state of the lawn mowing art.

Of course the FM or FC or FE guys would be upset by a consolidation, but that didn't seem to bother the BOD in regard to Sports 2000.

DSR and CSR are strong National classes that easily make any Runoffs cutoff, so why do they get combined and not FM FC FE ?

Like many people, I can't follow the BOD's logic.

I agree Sidney, if SCCA decides it's necessary to kick out some classes, their rules changes must attract many more members than they lose. I'd think you'd want to explain the benefits very clearly to the membership if that was your plan.


Just kidding about the lawn mowers.;)

About attending CMP double regional versus the Atlanta National...

Reminds me of a Harley T-shirt I saw years ago...
"If you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer."

:)

After reading the Rumor Mill thing, my thought was that maybe National racing should be rolled into SCCA Pro racing. That seems to be the way the 'market forces' are going.
If many racers enjoy good local events and don't enjoy traveling and don't care about the Runoffs, then Regional racing is great.
For those with bigger ambition, make Nationals into part of ProRacing, compete with the likes of F2000, IMSA Lites, Pro Mazda, etc. Maybe a driver would have to enter his 4 closest Pro weekends to qualify for the Runoffs. Those events would make each driver feel like a Pro, even if no prize money is involved.
SCCA could regain it's position as the premier roadracing sanctioning body in the US, as they were many years ago.

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Originally Posted by Sean Maisey

Russ,

<snip>

From your response I guess I hit a nerve... GOOD! Use that energy in a positive way. Go run the Savannah July Fry and the CMP Nats and show me how wrong I am. I double dog dare you!

The three of you that ran CMP could have run the RA Nat instead. It would have been much better for the class. We are close to making the top 24 and every entry is precious. Instead those entries are wasted. (Sorry but it is the truth).

Sean

PS. Don't bite your tongue. I am a big boy.

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Coupla things:

I had every intention of running the Rd Atl national last week. I have tried to run several nationals this year and came home from each one very disappointed and with no good results to show for my effort (not to mention how much money I've spent that I don't have). Your post hit a nerve because it rubbed salt in the wound. I know you've been through a lot this season and bounced back. I have too but it's getting harder to get up from each kick in the groin and draining of the checking account. My car is sitting in the garage now, waiting for the checkbook needle to come off empty.

I bit my tongue, not to spare your feelings, but because what I was about to type would not have helped the FB national/runoffs cause. I was going to say something like, hey, I joined the F1000 class when it was a regional only class. When it was announced it would be national I was shocked, and to be honest, not that thrilled about it. That's great that you want to do national racing and go to the Runoffs. I don't see me ever going to the Runoffs. I could enjoy national racing, but there are plenty of down sides for me. I'd get my butt kicked, my IT/FS/etc. buddies wouldn't be there and there are a lot more regionals (and double regionals) within a reasonable driving distance.

Different people react differently to different types of motivation. Your post had the opposite effect on me that you desired.

CMP & Roebling in July? No thank you. Maybe if I had gobs of money and a higher tolerance for sand and triple digit temperatures...

1) I prefer Regional racing with the local camaraderie. So I'm with Sean O and Russ here. But I also intend to run a few Nationals that are close by. I don't have the money to run a National campaign. And I sure as he** won't spend the money and time to tow to a National until I'm confident that the car is right.

2) The SCCA BOD is overly fixated on National racing and the runoffs. They've missed the boat. SCCA should start counting and promulgating the Regional racing numbers. Lee's concept about combining with Pro has merit.

3) Since I don't have the money, my car is taking longer because of all the doohickies I've had to fabricate.

4) Let the natural economics play in determining National classes. It's simple and effective and will cause less alienation among the members. We don't need the SCCA "leadership" to determine a live or die situation. It's called "system tampering". But we still have 5 years to make the numbers per the agreement.

5) The CRB (see Stan Clayton's post somewhere on here) was going in the right direction concerning combining Regionals with Nationals. I propose counting Regional's toward a runoffs spot. Give either 4 or 5 points to a Regional class win (with a minimum of say three entrants) in a National recognized class and 2 or 3 for a second and 1 for a third. Then add all the National and Regional points up to determine runoffs spots. I'd be willing to make a tow to the runoffs if I could gain points in both Regionals and Nationals.

6) My car should be on the track in August. I'll run three / four Regionals here in NER then try to make the ARRC. I want to meet all you FB "Southeners".

Ciao,

R

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sean Maisey

If you guys just wanted to f*ck around drinking beer and running regionals with your buddies, you should have built Spec Miatas and not gotten the rest of us all revved up about this really cool class.

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You should not have become "revved up" because we told you to but because the class is the coolest, best class in the SCCA and running regionals or nationals does not change that a bit.

Futhermore, I feel quite good about the contributions I've made thus far to the class. Lots of calls/ conversations creating the rules (my dime, btw). I built the very 1st car before the class even existed, and shared everything I learned along the way with the community. Finally, lots of effort/ time & money was put into making the ARRC special & well attended event. I personally made and paid for trophies, got us a keg, plus landed several sponsors for $$ to help with a tow fund...

What have you done?

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Originally Posted by rickb99

Interesting that members of the BOD are so 'upset' with many of the "TOP TEN" racing classes in SCCA. Just what motivates that attitude?

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Look at the regional participation. I watched the "wings'n'things" race at MARRS 2 on Sunday. One FS, one FE, three FCs, one FB, four CFs, two S2s, two CSRs, and a DSR. The top two FCs were pretty close, and there was a great three-way battle for 2nd in CF (which turned into a race for the win when the leader had a mechanical DNF). Other than that, though, there just wasn't much racing going on. FV was the exception, with a dozen or so cars mixing it up with a single F5.

Keep in mind that this regional race weekend had almost 300 entries (295 were pre-registered - I don't know how many actually showed up or registered late), with two classes (not run groups) bumping against the 50-car limit.

Open-wheel is the place to be in national racing, IMHO - and I think the participation numbers bear this out. When you look at a region that holds 7 events in a year, though, they are far more focused on the cars showing up for the 6 regional events than on the national classes. Sad, but true.

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Originally Posted by Lee Stohr

Jay, You have left out the cost factor, I think. I assume F500 is much cheaper than FF.
Is it fair to combine classes of widely varying cost? Who would buy a FF if a much cheaper F500 could win the race.
Now the fact that glorified lawn mowers can run with FF's says more about the age of the FF rules than the state of the lawn mowing art.

[...]

Just kidding about the lawn mowers.;)

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It doesn't matter if you're kidding or not - you're right. I'm not the world's greatest driver by any stretch, but in a decent F500, I have qualified well into the FFs at national events. It wouldn't take very much effort to equalize those two classes in terms of lap times. They DO work differently, though - the weight is radically different, and the braking and cornering really aren't that close between them. In the rain, I think you'd see the FFs run off and hide, due to the F5s lack of a proper diff - and that couldn't be easily equalized. What's REALLY different, though, is the 'philosophy' of the classes. Most of the F5 drivers don't want to 'improve' the cars' design; they were intended to be simple, low-cost, entry-level cars from the beginning. There's not much room for expensive shocks or diffs in this formula, so combining classes would be a death sentence for F5 as it exists today. Even if you added weight to FF, the top FF guys would go to F5, and the class would become something different than it is today anyway.

The question, though, is whether this would be a good thing, and whether or not it's necessary. I would pose this question: If F5 and FF both stay in the National top 20 on their own merits, why would we need to combine them to make room for ST or T-3 - which haven't proven their numbers yet, and might not if F5 and FF are healthy? The flip side - why do we have FF, CF, and F5 (or FC, FE, FA, FB, and FM) in MARRS, when there are really only a half-dozen or so cars showing up between all three classes?

Maybe the real answer is that these open-wheel, nationally-focused classes could be optionally combined at the Regional level in areas where there is little to no participation. Although I agree that any nationally-classed car should be able to run regionals, does the class structure automatically HAVE to be the same, or could a series such as MARRS or SARRC decide to lump FF/CF/F5 or FB/FC/FM/FE into a single class if the numbers lead them that way? I know that this will sound disastrous to some, but if it allows the regions to achieve their goals with tin-tops while allowing us to keep our national classes separate based on national participation, it's probably worth it, IMHO. This issue won't go away any time soon, so it's probably better if the 'target' classes propose their own solution that addresses the root problem rather than simply getting ticked off about someone else's proposals.

This whole process of converting the Tatuus has taken 3 times longer to get going than I expected. Funds ran out long ago, but I am still working on the project, and hope to be running late this year or early next.

There is no f*cking around when I come to the track. You put your life on the line every time to step into a racecar, and it doesn't matter if it's a regional or a national or a test day. I plan on running hard, safe and fast -- no f*cking around.

I will run events at tracks I want to run when I can afford it. If someone wants to subsidize me to run national events, then send the checks to Ian MacLeod and I'll make a point to put your name on the car.;) If you want to come help finish the car, I know we could use the assistance.

I think Lee's point about making Nationals a Pro system has some merit to maybe be discussed in further detail on another thread.

I don't owe anybody anything, but my wife thinks I owe her a huge ass dimond ring and a new car for the time and money spent building this car. We had this idea 20 years ago, and it's nice to see it finally become a reality.

Again, I don't see the big picture that the BoD does, because I can't see how tinkering with consolidating classes versus loss through market acceptance (attrition) is going to boost National participation.

For the immediate future there will be a National and Regional program so while its an interesting discussion that part has been decided for the next three years. The area of concern to y'all is consolidation and the methods and criteria for doing it. Pro racing is going to continue the way it has as long as it makes some money and pays back its loans.

I posted the link to the SCCA Rumour Mill article from Eric Prill because it reflects what the task force came back with to the BOD - maybe thats a subject for a different thread but you need to understand that there are many people in this Club that believe we can drastically consolidate and end up with better classes to run in. I am not a subscriber to this theory as I have seen classes consolidated and we always lose entries when it happens and so far the ideal scenario of a better product hasn't happened either.

You need to work harder to get to Nationals this year - one each would push the numbers up nicely to show that the class is growing

Phil

Phil, Can you bring data to the meetings which prove your statement that consolidation reduces participation ? You are probably correct, if so, lay the facts on the table.
If consolidation is going to happen regardless of reality, please consider lap times and cost when consolidating. Cost differences between classes may need to be more accurately presented to the BOD.

Phil
If you believe class consolidation is a bad idea, WHY DID YOU VOTE FOR IT.

Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Stohr

Phil, Can you bring data to the meetings which prove your statement that consolidation reduces participation ? You are probably correct, if so, lay the facts on the table.
If consolidation is going to happen regardless of reality, please consider lap times and cost when consolidating. Cost differences between classes may need to be more accurately presented to the BOD.

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Lee,

It probably doesn't mean a lot in the grand scheme of things. But, 6 to 8 S2 drivers in our area have already made inquiry's about running in ICSCC. That an other potential influx's of cars (from SCCA as a result of this) is why a possible shift of FL back to Group 3 might be considered. If it gets much worse, this could spell the end of road racing for the SCCA in the NWR :( :(

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Originally Posted by Fred Michael

Phil
If you believe class consolidation is a bad idea, WHY DID YOU VOTE FOR IT.

Fred

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That's a great question! :o

If you haven't caught the point of Phil's comments, or the other posts by Mike Sauce, Stan Clayton, or Dave Gomberg on this forum, we need to get the numbers out. The BOD sees our initial momentum fading, and that has made us a target for consolidation.

It has been VERY clear since day one that participation means racing in Natinoals.

"What have you done for the class", I have entered 4 Nationals so far this year. At GREAT personal expense (2 engines and one VERY expensive crash). Like you guys I am a father and husband with very limited $$$. I understood the situation and made getting to Nationals a priority this year.

(As an aside, I am mystified by the comments about the expense of running Natinoals, Other than a slightly higher entry fee how again are they so much more $$$)?

What will I do going forward. I am taking a cue from Sidney's post. I will pay $100 to each driver who attends a NEDIV or SEDIV National race in a FB car for the remainder of the season. (and no, Sidney I don't want my name on the car).

How is that for putting my money where my mouth is??? So stop bitching and get those cars out to the track. It is our best response...

Sean

To get the original task force consolidation program of 18 classes off the table and give ourselves breathing room to fix it - sometimes things are not what they appear. We have a call tonight to deal with this and other issues.
Phil

Lee
Its real hard to pull actual numbers on consolidation of classes - in effect last year the CRB re-classified most of GP into FP and HP. Some also went to GTL. Looking at the numbers it appears that the new groups in total are down by about 13-14% by Memorial Day compared to last year,same period. I don't think the gas prices had really started to bite at that point so I assume we lost some competitors. Maybe they ran regionals instead its very hard to track - there appears to be a net loss however although both FP and HP had slightly higher numbers individually. Since it has not happened to a Formula car class I really can't give you anything more relevant. I remember DProd being axed in the 80's and many of those cars just went away as they fit very poorly in their re-classifications.
Thats the danger you face by consolidating to try to end up with bigger classes - you always lose some in the process. The hope is that competition will attract more entries but it rarely, if ever, achieves that. I believe a CSR/DSR consolidation will lose between 15 and 20% of the combined group even in a normal year. Jacek told me the other night that he would not continue in CSR in a combined group and thats 10 entries a year right there.
Phil

Not a very good governing philosophy you are using there Mr. Creighton. I and others expect much better.

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Originally Posted by Phil Creighton

<snip> We have a call tonight to deal with this and other issues.

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Is there a chance that minutes will be taken at the meeting (or an audio recording) and shared with us? We all feel very much in the dark. We don't know who is proposing and supporting what. That shouldn't be the case since they should be representing us.

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phil Creighton

Its real hard to pull actual numbers on consolidation of classes - in effect last year the CRB re-classified most of GP into FP and HP. Some also went to GTL. Looking at the numbers it appears that the new groups in total are down by about 13-14% by Memorial Day compared to last year,same period. I don't think the gas prices had really started to bite at that point so I assume we lost some competitors.

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So last year consolidation resulted in a reduction of 13-14% in attendance.

More consolidation this year equals more attendance? I'm even more confused now that I have recent data from Phil.:confused:

at least Phil has the balls to step into this hornets nest...

I do appreciate your posting here and please keep it up. Also, do your best to fight for what you believe is right. We hated hearing that the latest vote was unanimous and many said "what about Phil?" knowing you were a formula/ sports racer guy.

Sean- I'm glad you are attending nationals, and I hope to make an effort in 09 to run nationals like I did in 07.I promise not to tell you to go get a Miata if I do more than you... (although they do look fun) As Russ pointed out, many people are close to completing conversions and the numbers will take care of themselves. There are FBs all over the country and participation will increase- esp if SCCA leaves us alone. I do think that regardless of all of this junk we are in it to have fun- not many of us believe we are headed to a paid-ride. Had you come to CMP a couple weeks ago you too would have had a great time. Yes, it was about spending some time with Butch, Mike, Russ, Tom, Harold, and Scott in addition to the racing. Perhaps numbers would go up if more people felt the fun to cost ratio made sense- and for me, at CMP, it did.
I'm not going back to CMP or Roebling in the middle of the summer, even with your offer. It's just to freakin hot. May do RA in July, Barber in August, the SIC, and the ARRC.
May just do a couple of those... we'll see.

Sebring in Jan has nice weather... perhaps VIR, the RA national (March?) and the Sprints next year. That sounds kinda fun.

Sometimes you retreat to fight the battle another day. I don't believe that consolidation should happen unless the class is dying anyway. You will always lose some entries. This is not a view shared by much of the Board.

Russ
There won't be recording of the meeting - there will be minutes but they are done to Roberts rules of Order and we don't record the discussion on the motions.

Phil,

Thanks for keeping us in the loop. I continue to be glad I voted for you.

Like Russ, I do wish that we could see more info regarding the BOD meetings. It seems like everything that matters comes out as a unanimous decision and we get little info on the debate and who took what position.

It seems kinda communist to me.

Sean

Remember what happened to the Tzar and his followers!

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Originally Posted by Phil Creighton

...but you need to understand that there are many people in this Club that believe we can drastically consolidate and end up with better classes to run in.

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So who are these people? So far, I have seen few racers—if any—that think that consolidating these formula classes is a good thing. In fact, there are a LOT of people who think this is a really terrible plan, and feel lied to and deceived by the BoD.

This is still a "club" run by the members, correct?




Seems like a handful of people pushing buttons and pulling strings that are really not paying attention to what the mass of the club members really want.

:confused:

Doug
Read the Eric Prill post on the new thing on the SCCA forum about the task force and its goals - I posted the link earlier in the thread. This is a view (philosophy) that is shared by a number of people on my Board and out there with some competitors (usually the ones not involved in those classes). I don't subscribe to the theory BTW.
Phil