FC tire survey e-mail

Great news!

I don't really care if bias or radial, or the compound. It will be the same for everybody.

Hoosier knows tires, and is the most reactive, adaptive, and flexible of any racing tire company providing tires to Club racers. That is why they have the lion's share of club racer business. They will take good care of us. If some other company can match their level of service, performance, and price, I am good with that too.

I hope SCCA can get this sorted ASAP, and the class can reap the benefits ASAP. Get r done!

Yo Beer,
Even though it's a little more of a moot point for what else has popped up here...........to answer your question about the ARs....

An AR set from about 1+ year ago as stickers that are laying around that haven't been used due partly to CoVid and partly to not having an engine for an extended period of time......fronts are marked F1000, rears marked FC. A set from about 2+ years ago that I ran over this just past October Sebring Short marked FC front and rear.

I don't find any tire to the dimensions noted here by EricP when I look for 'em at the Hoosier website.

Probably not going to have much to add here later but I shall make a point of discussing the FC spec tire thing with the Hoosier truck when I'm at Sebring over Turkey Trot and relate what I'm told - doubt they'll have such a tire to throw on the truck if I call Hoosier on Monday.

I wonder just how much of a curve ball this throws at Brad/Primus and his various Series.

By the way..........it's fun to already see how some are discussing how to "cheat legal" this Spec Tire rule. May I offer the suggestion of get a set well ahead of time and then let 'em sit bathed in tire softener for a week?

As to marking......Will the spec tires have bar codes that Tech can use a scanner on?......or will it be a colored spray paint dot?

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

It means the spec tire doesn't apply to regionals but the number used for the weekend does. Regionals can use any tire but same rules about marking and replacement.

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So if I keep one "not so good set" for practice/qualifying and a "good set" for the actual race so as to maximize my available heat cycles, this new rule that is supposed to save money actually precludes using an old used set then changing to a new used set for the race. Can you say screen door in the space shuttle.

Perhaps I missed it, but does the rule say you MAY use 4 new tires for the event, or MUST use 4 new tires? (to ensure the tire guy makes money, like they do in F4 series).
If it's "may use", then I'd interpret that as you can use any 4 previously marked tires from past events in the current event.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lotus7

Perhaps I missed it, but does the rule say you MAY use 4 new tires for the event, or MUST use 4 new tires? (to ensure the tire guy makes money, like they do in F4 series).
If it's "may use", then I'd interpret that as you can use any 4 previously marked tires from past events in the current event.

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I don't think it's going to work that way. Any tire that meets the spec but marked uniquely at each event.

So maybe.....just maybe.....a set marked with say a blue dot one weekend gets used a second weekend and at that second event the tire with a blue dot also now gets marked with a white dot because a white dot is what's being used at that second event ???

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Originally Posted by EYERACE

So maybe.....just maybe.....a set marked with say a blue dot one weekend gets used a second weekend and at that second event the tire with a blue dot also now gets marked with a white dot because a white dot is what's being used at that second event ???

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Paging Purple Frog. Paging Purple Frog. Would you please explain how tire marking works.

I'm too busy sorting my sock drawer tonight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EYERACE

So maybe.....just maybe.....a set marked with say a blue dot one weekend gets used a second weekend and at that second event the tire with a blue dot also now gets marked with a white dot because a white dot is what's being used at that second event ???

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FRP has used a unique mark (color and shape) for each weekend. I'm sure they get re-used, but not in sequential weekends.

Spec/control tires have been used at different levels for as many as 5 decades. I am sure that even SCCA will be able to institute a system to regulate tire use. Competitors need not worry.

The low budget guys that currently have to manipulate the process by running multiple sets of crap tires to get through a weekend, are the ones that will benefit most by use of spec tires. While they still may want to put on their "spare" set for practice, they can put on a single decent used set and get through the weekend. The average "quality" of their tires will be more competitive more often. There is nothing to be afraid of. This process is not new, and is a proven tool to reduce costs through the entire field.

I believe that the tire count is unnecessary, except for perhaps the Runoffs, but will not have much effect on the spec tire process either way. As I have reported elsewhere, at the Runoffs, we qualified on pole in FF with 5 session old tires. I believe the FF tire is the same 60 compound being considered for the FC tire (and is the 'Go to" compound used by Hoosier for most of their spec tire programs). My driver and I chose not to buy into the psychology of sticker tires, but believe in the consistency of the spec tires provided. I believe the FC community will develop a similar level of comfort if they can approach it with an open mind, or better yet, positive energy. We are just applying a process developed over 5 decades.

I’m optimistic about this. How/when will we know if radial? That adds a bit to my equation...

To study the Hoosier website again I see the same sizes as this new FC Spec Tire listed as Hoosier radial numbers 43370 and 43380 but only listed as being a R35 compound....so I guess Hoosier will start using the same radial tire carcass and slap some R60 compound on the outsides....which would mean the FC Spec Tire is going to be a radial.

Think about it from a business standpoint at Hoosier....there's a bunch of extra money to spend to make a different size carcass.....and little to gain at Hoosier to start making a bias FC R60 in a whole new size different from the current bias 25s and 35s. Sure, sure.... Hoosier might make that $ back over the longer haul of selling a lot of the Spec Tire......but considering it seems somebody plays with some rule every few years......I'll figure they want to make the money sooner rather than later

The listed new FC Spec Rains are the exact same sizes as the Radial Wets listed for F2000 at the Hoosier website......so I'll conclude the FC Rain Spec Tire is going to be a radial [again thinking it's a smart decision from a business standpoint].

Considering that "the committee" helping make the Spec Tire decisions included FC drivers.......no one in their right mind is going to make a rule that the FC class would have a bias dry and the wet be a radial. ......but as to that "right mind" stuff....it wouldn't be the first time in the world of racing.

Maybe the guys with the 16 years of radial tire track experience will share some of their wisdom on car setup and driving style changes needed.

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Originally Posted by RacerDave51

Maybe the guys with the 16 years of radial tire track experience will share some of their wisdom on car setup and driving style changes needed.

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Am I wrong. But I thought. this was to bring more pintos. Out???how will this work with radials??? Marking tires?? I liked the open nature of fc. Maybe time to race elsewhere??

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Originally Posted by tahoe z

Am I wrong. But I thought. this was to bring more pintos. Out???how will this work with radials??? Marking tires?? I liked the open nature of fc. Maybe time to race elsewhere??

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I honestly believe it is a bias ply and the same compound that FE2 is currently using . In fact I think FE2 fronts are now FC rears :tire:

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Originally Posted by R. Armington

I honestly believe it is a bias ply and the same compound that FE2 is currently using . In fact I think FE2 fronts are now FC rears :tire:

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I think you're missing the .5 in the sizes

I keep editing my post #162.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R. Armington

I honestly believe it is a bias ply and the same compound that FE2 is currently using . In fact I think FE2 fronts are now FC rears :tire:

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I would expect this basic tire is a consideration based on its success with the FE2 class.

it would be a shame since the current Pro spec radial is such an awesome tire. It may be the fastest tire out there currently , on some tracks, on some days, with good durability, despite being "spec". I wish the guys with older cars would try them, instead of fighting them, as they would be a nice step forward. Put them on and go!

Hoosier knows their stuff, and could certainly build a FC version of the FE2 tire. It would be a compromise solution, rather than the best solution, IMO.

Either way, we need to get on with it. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

"Either way, we need to get on with it."

Right! Please!

A few years back I went from bias to radials on my Pinto Reynard on a track day. Four times out and had the camber dialed in. Radials aren't hard to race. If you're concerned about the change, do a track day / test day and dial in the camber & get used to the new spec tire. Reminder. This is hobby. HAVE FUN ! Life is not a spectator sport. Get on track :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by racerdad2

A few years back I went from bias to radials on my Pinto Reynard on a track day.
....
This is hobby. HAVE FUN ! Life is not a spectator sport. Get on track :thumbsup:

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Which radials?

I thought I remember seeing a post indicating the camber requirements were not as extreme for the H radials compared to others.

Greg, Can you confirm what I have heard (or thought that I have heard) that radials require lots of camber to work properly and depending on the car, there may or may not be sufficient adjustment to achieve the amount of camber needed without significant modifications?

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Originally Posted by Steve Demeter

Greg, Can you confirm what I have heard (or thought that I have heard) that radials require lots of camber to work properly and depending on the car, there may or may not be sufficient adjustment to achieve the amount of camber needed without significant modifications?

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I can't find the post now, but I remember reading a comment that the Hoosier Radials did not require the high camber settings of other radials. I could be mis-remembering.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

I can't find the post now, but I remember reading a comment that the Hoosier Radials did not require the high camber settings of other radials. I could be mis-remembering.

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Bob Wright said that in post 148. IMO, there seem to be a wide range of cambers that will work with the Hoosier radials. And the championship car in the FRP F2000 series this year ran the lowest camber settings I've seen - in the neighborhood of negative 2-degrees.

Where to start...The radial is not rocket science. Period. See post above. It doesn't need massive amounts of camber, or other huge changes. It is consistent, repeatable and the tire lasts way longer than you might think. You can bolt a set on a 95 VD, add 2 deg of camber to what you currently have and go racing. Period. Nothing else more than you would do in any case to prepare for a race weekend. All this hand wringing about how different they are is smoke screen.

The one issue that got lost is if you elect bias tires: they are NOT consistent and potentially require far more setup changes between sets than a radial.

Getting the class on a spec tire is critical. Going to a bias tire is stepping backwards when most of the currently racing FC's are already familiar with the radial design and older cars can adapt with minimal changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Wright

You can bolt a set on a 95 VD, add 2 deg of camber to what you currently have and go racing. Period.

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ADD? So if currently -1 on bias, change to -3 for these radials?

That's no different than the Pirellis.

See Dave W's post above- its a range and drivers try different setting. I currently use ~3 deg front, ~2 deg rear camber. That is achievable on most FC's.

umm, why would it be that much different than a radial Pirelli?

-3 is not achievable on a 90-96 without dialing in a ****load of caster. Mine topped out at a -2.25 with more than 4 deg of caster. At the 2.5 deg of caster I'm running now it tops out at -1.5.

Said it before and I'll say it again, as long as we are discussing smoke screens - Avon bias are remarkably consistent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Wright

See Dave W's post above- its a range and drivers try different setting. I currently use ~3 deg front, ~2 deg rear camber. That is achievable on most FC's.

umm, why would it be that much different than a radial Pirelli?

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Because of your post:
"From personal experience, the radial does not need massive camber that might preclude some of the older cars. "

-3 is massive on older cars. I knew the Pirellis needed that. Your comment implied to me the Hoosiers would be something less.

My bad...

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

-3 is not achievable on a 90-96 without dialing in a ****load of caster. Mine topped out at a -2.25 with more than 4 deg of caster. At the 2.5 deg of caster I'm running now it tops out at -1.5.

Said it before and I'll say it again, as long as we are discussing smoke screens - Avon bias are remarkably consistent.

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Rick, my friend, that Avon horse you are beating is dead...

I don't know what any car will do on any tires. I heard all kinds of stories about radials on Formula F. On our Mygales, we added camber, adjusted ride heights, and went racing. After half a season, we started making small shock adjustments, but 4 years later, my cars have the same shock valving, same springs, and same ARB as before. While I never ran my 83 Reynard on slicks, I just bolted on radials and went racing, tuning from scratch. The car was awesome, and I could race with other old men in the Masters class ...... in their Citations, Pipers and Spectrums. I saw DB1s and DB6s that went as well or better than they ever went.

If you have an older FC car, you are already running completely different tires than it was ever designed for. If you run at the front, you have developed and tuned your car, and learned to drive it at a competitive level. I have no doubt that you will easily adapt to a different tire. If you are currently running 5-10 seconds off top FC pace, then I expect the tire change will make even less difference to you. In order to maximize the benefits of increased camber, you need to really drive the car hard. If you are 6-8 seconds per lap of the pace, then you will probably be more comfortable with less camber. Like my 83 Reynard, I think the 87ish Reynards will really like the radials.

I have been racing FC on spec tires since 1984 when I raced in the Canadian Tire F2000 Series. I have prepped FC cars on a dozen different tires since then. No big deal. Adjust ride heights. Adjust pressures and cambers to manufacturers recommended specs. Tune from there. I will have to do the same thing with our Citation if a bias tire is chosen. I expect to be within half a second (of ultimate pace) within 2 sessions, and then we will spend the next 5 years finding the last half second.;)

Like any time a spec tire gets introduced, the grid stays much the same. The fast guys are fast. The slow guys are slow. Everybody spends less money. Sometimes the midfield rearranges slightly as better drivers who are short on tire budgets, race more often, and with better tires, get better results. To me, that is a positive!

I just don't understand what anyone is afraid of. As a perennial underfunded racer, going to the race track knowing that I will always be on the "tire of choice" is important to me. I have been on both sides of "tire wars" in FV, FF, and FC over the years, and do not believe it is healthy for any class.

Not beating a horse at all. Just correcting a general statement with a specific one.

Now that I'm finished with sorting my sock drawer, I notice Problemchild wrote exactly what I planned to write.

I think this is the internet...it is all noise.... 4 deg of castor is huge? I have 4.5 deg and love it. Can't get 3 deg front on a 95 VD, then use 2.25, you'll be fine. I drove one for multiple seasons and don't remember not being able to dial in camber when I needed it; up to and including oval races with some pretty wild settings.

Why are we all arguing this? Its not a big deal... read Greg Rice's post above again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Which radials?

I thought I remember seeing a post indicating the camber requirements were not as extreme for the H radials compared to others.

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Goodyear

For about 20 years and 10,000 posts I have been trying to explain to folks that the safety rules in the GCR are for everybody that hits the track, but the class rules are really only for the top 10 cars at a Majors event or the Runoffs.

There is no attempt in the SCCA rules making business to try to make a '93 something' competitive with a 2018 Citation, or a 2017 Mygale.

If you are running around the track 5 seconds off the pace of the pointy end, then the rules are sort of immaterial. In fact, the truth is that the front of the field wishes you could go 3 seconds faster (even if you are sort of non-legal) so that you don't mess up a highly competitive race when the leaders are lapping you. I know it sounds harsh, but it is what it is.

For the record, I entered legal old cars in Majors events, 5 seconds off the pace, just to try to keep the FC numbers up. :o
Probably pissing off the front of the field... I know of which I speak.

I was amazed at recent FRP events just how little camber the front of the field was running in F2000 on radials. Some less than the bias numbers I was using on my old Reynard.

I probably shouldn't post after discussing this thread with Captain Morgan. ;)

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

I probably shouldn't post after discussing this thread with Captain Morgan. ;)

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But he is wise :beer:

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

There is no attempt in the SCCA rules making business to try to make a '93 something' competitive with a 2018 Citation, or a 2017 Mygale.

If you are running around the track 5 seconds off the pace of the pointy end, then the rules are sort of immaterial. In fact, the truth is that the front of the field wishes you could go 3 seconds faster (even if you are sort of non-legal) so that you don't mess up a highly competitive race when the leaders are lapping you. I know it sounds harsh, but it is what it is.

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If this is true, explain to me why we are doing this again?

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Originally Posted by rallaer

If this is true, explain to me why we are doing this again?

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I will take a stab at answering your question beyond the obvious tire budget savings...it is being doing for perception which hasn't really been fully discussed that I have seen, perhaps I missed it. Putting everyone on the same tire will give everyone the perception that they should be on a level playing field as those at the pointy end of the grid as far as tires go. EDIT - I see Greg did cover off some of this already.

Unfortunately for yourself, if we refer back to Greg's post, you have tuned your car for the last number of years on the Avons for the last half a second per lap. If I was still running & wanted to compete against yourself then I likely would have spent multiple test days at different tracks trying to figure out the Avons on our car vs the Hoosiers that the car has been developed around. Greg would have said I was wasting my time that the Hoosiers would be as competitive however my own perception would have been if I wanted to beat you, based on your past results, I would need Avons.

I realize there is a lot more to winning/racing then this however once again I go back to perception. I'm not saying I am right, but this is something I would have done or attempted to do. We did this before running four front tires on a FF so can't say it isn't something out of reality.

Now this is eliminated, unfortunately it hurts your set up more then most but also I am sure based on your skill set you will still be leading the pack on Hoosiers.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

...I just don't understand what anyone is afraid of. As a perennial underfunded racer, going to the race track knowing that I will always be on the "tire of choice" is important to me. I have been on both sides of "tire wars" in FV, FF, and FC over the years, and do not believe it is healthy for any class.

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My viewpoint exactly !!!!

As someone poised to return to the track after a 9 year layoff I am excited that a spec tire is becoming a reality. I like the fact that it just takes a few more decisions I would have to make off the table. I've been a Hoosier guy for a long time but following Rob's success with the Avons would force me to look at those. Then there is the decision about compounds. What's the weather going to be like, how abrasive is a particular track, etc. Lastly, gee the tires seem to be going off a bit, should I spring for another 2 or 4 tires for Sunday? Then again, I might be so slow none of it matters anymore. 9 years is a long time.
BTW, I talked to someone in the know yesterday and he says that Hoosier is waiting on the bias/radial decision from the club. They presented both options and are just waiting on the decision to start production.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by problemchild

I expect to be within half a second (of ultimate pace) within 2 sessions, and then we will spend the next 5 years finding the last half second.;)

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:thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by problemchild

Like any time a spec tire gets introduced, the grid stays much the same. The fast guys are fast. The slow guys are slow. Everybody spends less money. Sometimes the midfield rearranges slightly as better drivers who are short on tire budgets, race more often, and with better tires, get better results. To me, that is a positive!

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And I will add that the guys who only ran where they ran because they outspent their competitors on tires will shuffle backwards a bit. Also a positive (not aimed at anybody specific but we all know one or two).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by problemchild

I just don't understand what anyone is afraid of. As a perennial underfunded racer, going to the race track knowing that I will always be on the "tire of choice" is important to me. I have been on both sides of "tire wars" in FV, FF, and FC over the years, and do not believe it is healthy for any class.

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-Amen

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Originally Posted by Steve Bamford

I will take a stab at answering your question beyond the obvious tire budget savings...it is being doing for perception which hasn't really been fully discussed that I have seen, perhaps I missed it. Putting everyone on the same tire will give everyone the perception that they should be on a level playing field as those at the pointy end of the grid as far as tires go. EDIT - I see Greg did cover off some of this already.

Unfortunately for yourself, if we refer back to Greg's post, you have tuned your car for the last number of years on the Avons for the last half a second per lap. If I was still running & wanted to compete against yourself then I likely would have spent multiple test days at different tracks trying to figure out the Avons on our car vs the Hoosiers that the car has been developed around. Greg would have said I was wasting my time that the Hoosiers would be as competitive however my own perception would have been if I wanted to beat you, based on your past results, I would need Avons.

I realize there is a lot more to winning/racing then this however once again I go back to perception. I'm not saying I am right, but this is something I would have done or attempted to do. We did this before running four front tires on a FF so can't say it isn't something out of reality.

Now this is eliminated, unfortunately it hurts your set up more then most but also I am sure based on your skill set you will still be leading the pack on Hoosiers.

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Thanks for the note Steve. Miss ya bud! Hopefully we see you out there again soon!

I think you did answer it. We are basically doing this so the top 5 in the pointy end of a race have a "perception" that they are on the same playing field. I get that, however, this has been sold as a good move for everyone. That's where it doesn't add up.

Let me be clear - I've raced on the Hoosier pro tires in F2000, and the Hoosier club tires. They were my choice at Mid Ohio a couple years ago. I can set my car up with any tire. Luckily, I have enough laps under me now that I think I can get up to speed relatively quickly after changing tires. The problem is we are being told this is going to help the overall class. Personally, I do not believe that is true. That's my opinion, and not trying to cause any arguments. But your answer basically says the same thing I am saying. This change is only going to help someone in the top 5 with his tire perception.

But the goal of this move is what needs to be really looked at. I'm not naive. I knew from the second we started talking about this Hoosier would end up with a spec tire in FC. It's hilarious to me how anyone thought we had a say in the matter.

Honestly, if the goal is to limit costs, then I propose we limit the number of events and test days FC drivers can do. Nothing makes a driver better than seat time and not everyone can afford to do 6-10 events a year. Some can’t even afford SCCA Friday test days.

Also- to help with another perception issue - no one should be allowed to compete in another pro series like F1600 or Trans Am and then be “hired” to come drive a FC at premier SCCA events. As a matter of fact, no pro drivers at all. How is it fair to regular guys that have normal jobs, that they suddenly have to compete with someone who drives a different race car every weekend? They can’t match the money or time being spent on racing by these guys. Is this crazy talk??

I hope everyone understands how much I love our class. Since I first sat in my FC about 12 years ago, no one has participated in more Runoffs than I have. Obviously I have lost a lot more than I have won! I just have a difference in opinion on what will work to grow the class. Currently we have a bunch of momentum, thanks to people like 'the Godfather' and Chris pushing the excitement of racing in social media and so on. I do very much hope any change we make drives the numbers up. I just don't believe this is the case. We may not know for a couple years. Certainly this year will be an anomaly due to the huge push for Indy. I hope I am wrong.

Anyone that really knows me understands that I am not the sort of person who will sit back and let something like this happen without questioning it. It's not that I am against change. When they added 20 pounds to Zetecs, many of the same guys on this thread talking about how much they love the tire change, were against the weight change. Despite my disagreement that 20 lbs will make a difference in competitiveness of races, the GOAL of the change was true. Trying to get Pintos on the track. I can't argue with that. I'm not sure it will work either, but at least the goal is for everyone. Not just the guys at the top that have a 'perception' that Avons are 3 seconds a lap faster (as we once heard at Sebring from someone on this thread).

Sorry for the long, wordy note everyone. I'm going to try to step back now, where I belong, quietly in the background doing what I am told.

; )

Rob Allaer
FC #52

Rob,
You're misquoting what he said. He didn't say as you did that it will only help the top 5 with their perception of a level playing field, he said "Putting everyone on the same tire will give EVERYONE
the perception that they should be on a level playing field as those at the pointy end of the grid as far as tires go".

I didn't know frogs wore socks.

There is so much back and forth on this thread its hard to keep up.

Here are a couple things as a group or individual you should ask yourself when looking at a Radial or Bias. What is the cost? If you don't care which tire you want to run on then wouldn't the obvious choice be the cheapest option???? If that is your answer then you will want a Bias Ply.

Also to answer some questions about why this would help the class the answer would be that if we go with the cheapest option then you should be able to run more events. With tire limits set per weekend you are reducing your spend for the year which should help down the line to maybe ad another event. Thus helping the class.

Brian

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Originally Posted by EYERACE

I didn't know frogs wore socks.

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Sure he does--with sandals...

Umm.. the 'cheapest' tire is not necessarily the least expensive. If you look at the real longevity of a tire, and the ease of use, the one that is slightly more expensive to buy might in fact be a better choice.

IMHO, the radial has better life than a bias and requires less setup work due to its consistency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrianT1

What is the cost? If you don't care which tire you want to run on then wouldn't the obvious choice be the cheapest option???? If that is your answer then you will want a Bias Ply.
Brian

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I am not challenging your premise, but why do you say Bias is cheaper? I have not seen any prices quoted. Is that initial purchase price or net price, after factoring in number of cycles, etc. The bias FE2 spec tire price is only slightly lower than the radial FF spec price. If we are talking $100 difference per tire then price becomes a bigger factor of the equation. I would put the most focus on selecting the best tire for all-around performance, consistency, durability, etc, so would not factor in initial purchase price if within $100/set. if lowest initial purchase price is the prime factor, then AR would be the prime spec tire provider in club racing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Wright

Umm.. the 'cheapest' tire is not necessarily the least expensive. If you look at the real longevity of a tire, and the ease of use, the one that is slightly more expensive to buy might in fact be a better choice.

IMHO, the radial has better life than a bias and requires less setup work due to its consistency.

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Again, because the radial will not need continual trips back to the scale pad that is my choice. My time at the race track is worth more than any price difference is likely to be.