Flagtronic in car warning light system

At the risk of fanning more flames between here & the FIA rain light thread, I do kinda see a bit of an idea possibility that *could* be taken reasonably since the topic & discussion came up.

It has been mentioned about lights on the mirrors, but also the hurdles of then wiring/attaching/etc.
Instead of at the mirror, what about inexpensive yellow lights on the back of the car, triggered by the Flagtronics?
No, the driver obviously would not see their own light, so it doesn't help if you are on your own... but the main time flags are missed, are when you are in a fight. Maybe you won't miss one directly in your face, where you are focusing on.

If Flagtronics could just have a couple more wires for us to tie to, a $15 LED near the back of the car would alert everyone trailing to an issue as they come to a Caution Zone or FCY. Some pro series do this with their red lights, but we could differentiate from our rain lights. Keep in mind that I am a FV guy & we almost always have several cars around us. Heck, if we are given flexibility from Flagtronics for external lights... mount some small yellow LEDs on our beam towers to get attention.
Just a thought, since all this stuff is now a live discussion.

https://www.amazon.com/Partsam-Trailer-indicator-Waterproof-Installation/dp/B00YLWX0SC/ref=d_m_crc_dp_lf_d_t1_sccl_3_1/134-6541518-3723908?pd_rd_w=kB7qo&content-id=amzn1.sym.5d471845-5073-424b-b27b-c0676f48a016&pf_rd_p=5d471845-5073-424b-b27b-c0676f48a016&pf_rd_r=PB1VD10MAK49JSCHRTTF&pd_rd_wg =Q7oHb&pd_rd_r=cbf99c6a-8fd1-4d18-a9b8-a22ccfb4a25b&pd_rd_i=B00YLWX0SC&psc=1
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1WwAA...AW/s-l1600.jpg

Lights in/on the mirrors is something done on some motorcycles. For example, here's a set for Goldwings:

https://wingstuff.com/products/127-k...hts-for-gl1800

I have a pair on my and honestly don't see them but if they were in the inboard side of the mirror may be more visible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vtjballeng

Attachment 107787

---

Your photo shows the unit mounted on an angle. I was told the units, with their stubby antennae, won't transmit properly unless mounted level. Unless I was misinformed...

Glenn

Wow, that's a roomy cockpit! No such real estate here... not the ideal in-cockpit pic I'm afraid, but when you see where the wheel is, add in hands with gloves, realize that my knuckles will hit the frame rails (for scale), then contemplate where the unit would go...

1) Early adoption is not issue. This system is currently in use by many other racing organizations. A very simple system that is not hard to use. The manufacture is also very active monitoring its use/adoption.

2) I would think all this talk about CAN communication is pointless unless your current system has a colored display.

3) Adding a yellow light is not going not going to be of much value. There is a lot information that the system can provide that you would be missing.

I think that one of the most important features is controlling the speed of the field under yellow conditions. This goes to the heart of what emergency crews desire from the competitors. The Code 35 status actively helps the driver reach and maintain 35 mph for example. A single warning light is not going to be able such information.

Brian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

1) Early adoption is not issue. This system is currently in use by many other racing organizations. A very simple system that is not hard to use. The manufacture is also very active monitoring its use/adoption.

2) I would think all this talk about CAN communication is pointless unless your current system has a colored display.

3) Adding a yellow light is not going not going to be of much value. There is a lot information that the system can provide that you would be missing.

I think that one of the most important features is controlling the speed of the field under yellow conditions. This goes to the heart of what emergency crews desire from the competitors. The Code 35 status actively helps the driver reach and maintain 35 mph for example. A single warning light is not going to be able such information.

Brian

---

1- agreed, to an extent. but implementation is still hard for many of us.
2- we still have a lot of colored LEDs to make blink & a screen that we can read a detailed messaged on when the LEDs alert us to look.
3- very much disagree. it will alert you to get your head on a swivel for people with simpler dashes, and could possibly see the light on the cars at the other end of the straight entering a yellow zone.

The light in Matt's post #101 could be red and be used in place of the $200 FIA rainlight:thumbsup::)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve Demeter

So all I need is a flagtronics system? No existing data system or fancy dash? And how much does the flagtronics system cost?

---

$249 stated previously for the current version of the stand-alone unit.

Thanks I missed it

While not an official SCCA podcast, it looks like the Inside the SCCA podcast will be discussing flagtronics with some guests live tonight

https://www.youtube.com/live/85uh8qSH0lo?feature=share

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by problemchild

When you combine this and the rainlight, then factor in installation labor, we have added $500+ to the cost of participation. While this is insignificant to those spending $5-10K per race event (or much more) there are still racers trying to spend $5-10K per season. These added costs are like spitting on those racers. "If you don't like it, quit racing with SCCA."

---

Don't forget the AIM data bracket and a camera.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brian styczynski

While not an official SCCA podcast, it looks like the Inside the SCCA podcast will be discussing flagtronics with some guests live tonight

https://www.youtube.com/live/85uh8qSH0lo?feature=share

---

Is there a saved recording? I am interested to watch but the time slot conflicted with dinnertime with the family.

Normally, they're found on their YouTube channel:

The Racing Network - YouTube

But that one appears to have been deleted for some reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spengo

Is there a saved recording? I am interested to watch but the time slot conflicted with dinnertime with the family.

---

I believe they had technical issues and the stream kept going down. Brian said he is rescheduling with the 2 guests but I am not sure of the date

I have been looking at the Flagtronics site and the display looks really big. What am I missing. How big is the actual light that has to be mounted where the driver can see it? Have very little room.

To get a better idea about flagtronics, from in car videos, connecting to a CAN bus, how the system looks on an AIM dash, to how the controllers work, among much more info, go to youtube and search flagtronics. There are many videos available there.

Get informed.......

I am a corner marshal and have used the flagtronics system, along with the similar system used by F1 and IndyCar. As a marshal I prefer flagtronics.

Flagtronics will not replace corner marshals. It cannot detect changes is surface conditions, see debris, see fluids leak, have a sense of smell, cannot hear, etc.

One very important feature is in the event of a crash the system immediately informs race control of a crash, the g force of the crash, along with reporting the location of the carsh with 20cm accuracy.

However, the guy that misses/ignores the yellow flag will miss/ignore the yellow light!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tgaluardi

However, the guy that misses/ignores the yellow flag will miss/ignore the yellow light!

---

The guy that misses both should not have a racing license in the first place.

I can see in the future, system software that records/documents every PUY. No reason that the a history of PUY's for a given car (car log number) could not be available for the stewards to review and act upon.

This system has so many possible uses.

Brian

They are trying to have the live stream discussion again tonight with guests including the owner of flagtronics. Questions can be sent to racingwirenetwork@gmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/live/Ruhu1nU...O9uuJGbQ1YseN-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brian styczynski

They are trying to have the live stream discussion again tonight with guests including the owner of flagtronics. Questions can be sent to racingwirenetwork@gmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/live/Ruhu1nU...O9uuJGbQ1YseN-

---

I really like this being able to get rid of most safety cars and black flags thing they're talking about. That is a great benefit for amateur racers where we have our time slot and the race ends when it ends no matter what. We'd probably get our $250 worth of seat time back within a single season.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spengo

I really like this being able to get rid of most safety cars and black flags thing they're talking about. That is a great benefit for amateur racers where we have our time slot and the race ends when it ends no matter what. We'd probably get our $250 worth of seat time back within a single season.

---

What? This is not getting rid of FCC or BFAs, just helping communication between race control and drivers. We are not replacing the 65 year old relics in race control with 35 year old rocket scientists, merely improving communication to the 65 year old relics. The same decision making process will be in place, in a perfect world, perhaps shortening some BFAs and FCCs.

It could also create more BFAs and FCCs. Sometimes, more information can slow down the process, creating more or longer BFAs and FCCs.

In the podcast they were talking about ability to go code purple 35mph and immediately deploy emergency vehicles instead of waiting for the full field to get behind the pace car, which can take several laps, before wreckers are deployed (some tracks wait 10 minutes before doing anything). I don't think scca has plans to start a code purple program yet, but if they wanted to, flagtronics in every car would be required. The podcast was talking about flagtronic use in NASA and going 14 hours without a FCC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by problemchild

What? This is not getting rid of FCC or BFAs, just helping communication between race control and drivers. We are not replacing the 65 year old relics in race control with 35 year old rocket scientists, merely improving communication to the 65 year old relics. The same decision making process will be in place, in a perfect world, perhaps shortening some BFAs and FCCs. It could also create more BFAs and FCCs.

---

The new "purple 35" mode discussed makes it safe to send out a flat tow or other safety crew to resolve many of the most common racing incidents without going FCC or BFA. Race control can see immediately when all cars have gotten to 35mph making it safe to send crew out and transmit immediately to all drivers once crew is safely off the track. The idea is not to eliminate black flags and safety cars entirely but greatly reduce the number of times we have to use them.

https://vscda.org/flagtronics/

Vscda is also looking into flagtronics and they had some members install as part of the investigation. They put up a page to show example installs, including a FC, vintage FF and vintage FV.

We are still talking about SCCA people who make the most simple process incredibly complicated. The flagtronic people are promoting their solution in a perfect world, not the SCCA world. This may be helpful in the long run, but it will be a long painful process in the short term, with a lot of money being made at the member's expense..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brian styczynski

https://vscda.org/flagtronics/

Vscda is also looking into flagtronics and they had some members install as part of the investigation. They put up a page to show example installs, including a FC, vintage FF and vintage FV.

---

The FC in the example is a pre-97 car. Where they mounted it would be directly in front of my display.

I do not like the giant piece of aluminum riveted together in the other example. I can imaging that hurting me some day!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by problemchild

We are still talking about SCCA people who make the most simple process incredibly complicated. The flagtronic people are promoting their solution in a perfect world, not the SCCA world. This may be helpful in the long run, but it will be a long painful process in the short term, with a lot of money being made at the member's expense..

---

It's been said certain drivers will be able to ignore a yellow light on the dash just as easily as they ignore the yellow waving flags. The difference in this system is that race control will immediately know who they are. If that results in better enforcement it's worth every penny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

The FC in the example is a pre-97 car. Where they mounted it would be directly in front of my display.

I do not like the giant piece of aluminum riveted together in the other example. I can imaging that hurting me some day!

---

I understand, all of the cars pictured have much more room to work with than the modern counterparts. I am just trying to pass along info as I find it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TimH

If that results in better enforcement it's worth every penny.

---

The world will be a better place full of snuggly kittens, butterflies, and rainbows. Why would SCCA suddenly start applying penalties and enforcing rules that they don't do now? Are we so naïve to believe that this expensive tool will transform the keystone cops into Navy seals? Perhaps we can get a set of steak knives with every purchase of this amazing tool?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brian styczynski

I understand, all of the cars pictured have much more room to work with than the modern counterparts. I am just trying to pass along info as I find it.

---

I checked my Citation for room to put this. In the F-T's current configuration It won't fit. Here's what I emailed F-T:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This unit is too thick (20.5 mm + the 2 buttons) to fit the one location (on the dash panel behind the cut-out portion of the steering wheel) it needs to be in order to be visible. Half that thickness (12-13 mm) would be OK.

Also, my radio's 8" diameter aluminum ground-plane would be above the unit's antenna if it were mounted there, so that may not have worked even if it would have fit.

There is no other apparent location where it would fit and be both visible and have its antenna vertical.

They responded with some mounting options, so I emailed the following back to them:

Thanks, but none of the mounts you show appear to be applicable (with the stand-alone version) to my extremely cramped cockpit. Also, my DAQ system is an old CDS which can't be used with your remote unit, so the stand-alone appears to be my only option. If the stand-alone unit were thinner and could use a remote antenna, I could likely make that work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by problemchild

The world will be a better place full of snuggly kittens, butterflies, and rainbows. Why would SCCA suddenly start applying penalties and enforcing rules that they don't do now? Are we so naïve to believe that this expensive tool will transform the keystone cops into Navy seals? Perhaps we can get a set of steak knives with every purchase of this amazing tool?

---

I beg to differ with your opinion. If I can get one to fit where I can see it in my Citation, I think it will be a major help in knowing what's going on, what flags are being displayed, and where they are. Over the years I've missed several flags but luckily missing them has not caused a disaster. I would welcome the enhanced awareness the F-T can provide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveW

I beg to differ with your opinion. If I can get one to fit where I can see it in my Citation, I think it will be a major help in knowing what's going on, what flags are being displayed, and where they are. Over the years I've missed several flags but luckily missing them has not caused a disaster. I would welcome the enhanced awareness the F-T can provide.

---

The part will cost less than $20 to make in these quantities. Right now it is an oversized work in progress that wont fit in many cars. I would agree it is worth developing, but at $50/each, the sellers can still buy nice new houses, rather than Miami mansions. Right now it is an overpriced work in progress, probably several years away from a developed finished product.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by problemchild

The part will cost less than $20 to make in these quantities. Right now it is an oversized work in progress that wont fit in many cars. I would agree it is worth developing, but at $50/each, the sellers can still buy nice new houses, rather than Miami mansions. Right now it is an overpriced work in progress, probably several years away from a developed finished product.

---

No argument there. It needs to be able to fit or it can't be used.

IMHO flagtronics needs to come up with a much more compact unit if anyone expects them to be installed in most formula cars without re engineering and rebuilding the entire cockpit / dash.

The CRB ought to realize this and act appropriately.

I have corresponded with Flagtronics and the VSCDA pics are what they sent me representing them as solutions that Flagtronics had assisted with.

I ma in the boat that there is simply no place to put it.


Also think of this: If you are constatnlyy looking down in the cockpit t5o see what it is telling you, then how can you concentrate properly on driving the cart. For the most part, flag stations are in the normal line of sight.

I just listened to the podcast and I understand the benefits.

Near the beginning when showing the unit they made a comment of 'more to come' regarding the packaging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve Demeter

Also think of this: If you are constantly looking down in the cockpit to see what it is telling you, then how can you concentrate properly on driving the cart. For the most part, flag stations are in the normal line of sight.

---

A bright enough flashing light can be way out in my peripheral vision and still get my attention. If it's not on I don't need to look for it. I agree, though, that the big integrated unit is a lot more of a mounting problem than a remote display would be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve Demeter

I ma in the boat that there is simply no place to put it.

---

If I am the CRB working this issue is the answer is very simple.... You mount the unit on top of the body work near or above the top of the steering wheel. All that aero and vision BS is not going to fly when the fastest formula cars in the world all have Halo structures blocking their frontal vision. Obviously does not bother them.

And the drivers are not going to have any issue viewing the display.

Brian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

If I am the CRB working this issue is the answer is very simple.... You mount the unit on top of the body work near or above the top of the steering wheel. All that aero and vision BS is not going to fly when the fastest formula cars in the world all have Halo structures blocking their frontal vision. Obviously does not bother them.

And the drivers are not going to have any issue viewing the display.

Brian

---

That's easy to say, but, IMO, impractical to mount on top of the bodywork where it would be exposed to rain, stones thrown up by cars ahead, etc. It also would be a major blockage to my vision ahead - it's not a blade like the halo front support, it's 3" wide and over 1" tall, and I barely see over my bodywork now. And as I said previously, it won't fit on the dash panel above the steering wheel.

Your outlook seems to be that AS LONG AS YOU DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH IT, everything is easy to do. It's just not that simple.

It is is 2.250" wide and machined from billet aluminum. Also sealed very well. I have one apart on my bench at this time. It is going to live just fine on top of the body.

The fact is you do not need the frontal vision that it would block as demonstrated by F1, etc. Yes, it might be your preference to have unobstructed vision, but it is not necessary.

Brian

<<< Concerned, hope my eyes stop rolling any minute now >>>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

It is is 2.250" wide and machined from billet aluminum. Also sealed very well. I have one apart on my bench at this time. It is going to live just fine on top of the body.

The fact is you do not need the frontal vision that it would block as demonstrated by F1, etc. Yes, it might be your preference to have unobstructed vision, but it is not necessary.

---

While slapping crap on your car apparently works for you, we should be entitled to install, fit and finish in a manner acceptable to us. That could well be different for each of us since these cars are all unique.

Look at the picture in post #89 again. It's a Van Diemen F2000, was easy to install, is completely separate from any data system (or lack of) and took no particular customizing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

It is is 2.250" wide and machined from billet aluminum. Also sealed very well. I have one apart on my bench at this time. It is going to live just fine on top of the body.

The fact is you do not need the frontal vision that it would block as demonstrated by F1, etc. Yes, it might be your preference to have unobstructed vision, but it is not necessary.

Brian

---

Brian,
No offense, but I can't remember the last time you mentioned yourself as a driver. It's one thing to sit in your shop and talk about how simple it is to mount on your bodywork, and that YOU have no problem. Like DaveW, I have limited room in my cockpit, even in a "roomy" FE2. I'm all in favor of Flagtronics, but I don't want to have to upgrade my data system or try to find a subpar way to mount the stand alone unit.

James

I'm sort of sorry that I mentioned it could be integrated in the data. THERE IS NO NEED TO UPDATE YOUR DATA SYSTEM!!! The Flagtronics works all by itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

...The fact is you do not need the frontal vision that it would block as demonstrated by F1, etc. Yes, it might be your preference to have unobstructed vision, but it is not necessary.

Brian

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by E1pix

<<< Concerned, hope my eyes stop rolling any minute now >>>

---

Geez...

I'm sorry that you, Brian, seem incapable of understanding other folks issues. Blocking frontal vision with a thin vertical blade is totally different from blocking frontal vision with a 2.25" wide obstruction. I would be unable to see things, for instance, that I wouldn't want to run over while driving on straights. That is totally unsafe and unacceptable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

Look at the picture in post #89 again. It's a Van Diemen F2000, was easy to install, is completely separate from any data system (or lack of) and took no particular customizing.

---

Bob, that's your car with your set of clearances, for instance, between knuckles and dash and your width of front hoop. There is NOT ENOUGH ROOM in my Citation (Steve Demeter has the same issue) to install the current stand-alone version any place that it is visible w/o looking down inside the cockpit and taking my eyes off the road, which is the definition of distracted driving. That is illegal on the street and certainly not good practice on the racetrack.

If the F-T were only 1/2" thick, I could move the CDS GPS-2 box and mount the F-T there.

You have to understand that the dash is ~1-foot forward of the cockpit bodywork top rear edge and structure. Mounting it on the frame rail that you see would likely let it make contact with my helmet in an accident, even with using a HANS, plus would be in the way getting into and out of the car.

As I said previously, I will install it if I can make it fit. I would be a good thing to have.

The attached photo was taken from just above where my eyes would be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agitator

Brian,
No offense, but I can't remember the last time you mentioned yourself as a driver.

---

I don't know when he'd find the time to work on a car, let alone drive it, with all the time he spends on here trolling and arguing with people. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

Look at the picture in post #89 again. It's a Van Diemen F2000, was easy to install, is completely separate from any data system (or lack of) and took no particular customizing.

---

And that position would not work for me.
1. My hand would hit it.
2. I cannot see that position. My dash and wheel are much higher. My hand would be in the way.

I agree with Dave - having to look down would be dangerous. That's why I suggested some sort of external display.

I still think LEDs on the edge of the mirror would work really well. (Post #97)
- They would be in a place I already look.
- They would be seen with my head up - not looking down.

Don't get me wrong. Before watching the podcast and more so after I do think this is good and where we are going.
I just can't see how it's existing format (designed for tin tops) would work for me.

I think I have a spot it might fit under the body forward of dash. For those people promoting bolting on top of the body what do you plan to do with that wiring harness and battery? The white plugs facing forward, are they good for 100 mph rain penetration?