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Just to clarify we don't use stock manifolds we just arent allowed to make the bends as "big" as the scca allows. They are still far from stock. And when we make them we don't plaster $1000 plus price tags on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan W
Thanks for the clarification...show how much I need friends like you and Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
BABBLING,Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan W
Why should the USA FV change from steering boxes to Racks?
As much as people are not convinced that we need steering racks. I understand making major changes can be detrimental to our class. I understand and agree with all and everyone's points as to why we shouldn't change this or change that.
I'm not saying the following is the reason we need racks. There is nothing I can say or not say to convince people.
The people involved in FV or F1200 have been trying and thinking about ways to get people that have cars to come out and race for years. Guess what... it isnt working. There are probally a number of reasons. Entry fees, towing costs, don't want too, safety, etc... I dont know?
All that I know is we need to make these cars more attractive to the younger generation. This is the future of our sport. So why not try something small and see how it floats for a couple of years?
I have a few friends that do time attack and race in the CSCS here in Canada. Next to a Pro racing event I have never seen as many people people involved in a racing event. That includes entries, spectators etc... BTW there cars cost 3X what a used vee costs.
Now this has come up a number of times. I asked them why wouldn't they want to race F1200? They said the cars are boring old technology and we can't relate to it. I understand their answer. The only reason I can relate to these cars is because I have a father that kept me submerged in cars and racing since I was born. But people like me are rare and the older generation is only getting older. So let's go after the younger generation.
As I do agree with Greg and Guy and others that rapid change can kill the class. Let's start small. What we have been doing has not been working. So let's try something.
Guy, will you be racing with us next year?
Johan's interest and passion for this class is undeniable maybe his approach may have been a little aggressive as to change. Change is not always a bad thing just look at the Australia FV series. It is booming since the inception of major change. From what Johan has told us The South African Series is booming since the change. Even locally look at F1600 a major change happened and now they have double the entries.
I love racing in this class on or off the track. The people are great! I love VWs. I want to see this class stay alive for another 50 years. At which time I will be 79 years old and having this same conversation with some young little sh** except I will be on the other side of the fence. lol!
So at our AGM a couple of weeks ago the class decided that this is something we can try. Let's be honest it's not going kill the class. Let's see how it works. If it doesnt work or make a difference I will take it off and put the box back on. it will take about 1/2 hour to 45 mins to change on our car.
No improvement in performance or lower costs so why move to a steering rack?
If you're talking about attracting younger, newer drivers... cool fat wheel/tire package, and BIG disk brakes first... the last thing you'd consider is upgrading a steering box to a steering rack since base on this thread your spending money for no advantage????
Steering racks will attract exactly ZERO new drivers. Don't use that as your lobbying points if you want them. I have never ever been asked by anyone if any of my race cars have streering racks....the question always is "how fast does it go?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bam Bam
However, someone looking at the nose of my Protoform once asked "What is that big wart on the nose of your car for? That's ugly."
And for the record, the steering box and arm on Matt's RTJ is directly over the driver's shins. It's always been a safety concern of mine, hoping he never gets smacked on the front wheels.
How do you know??Quote:
Originally Posted by Bam Bam
I have had people question with concern about the steering box.
How come every car on earth has a rack? If boxes were as good as racks how come they invented racks and use them on every car?
I want a rack because it is more direct and better feeling of the car. Which to me is safer. And anyone that says the boxes feel the same as racks. You need to learn how to drive. You are not on the limit of the car to feel the difference.
You're arguing it will increase participation., or at least that was one of your reasons for wanting them. If it will improve safety conclusiley then I 100% support it. Otherwise leave the F1200 class alone. Change will cost you more drivers then it will add, IMO at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bam Bam
I have to admit, this discussion is beginning to confuse me slightly. Correct me if I am wrong.
:greenflag: Some are FOR steering racks because:
. . . . . of perceived safety issues, at least on their particular chassis.
. . . . . of concern over the lack of availability of quality steering boxes
. . . . . it improves the "feel" of the steering
. . . . . it allows some cars to remove the steering box "bump", and clean-up body lines
. . . . . it uses a technology newer/younger drivers may identify with better
:redflag: Some are OPPOSED to steering racks because:
. . . . . of concern with unnecessarily changing successful long standing rules and risks splintering the group
. . . . . they feel there are plenty of standard steering boxes available
. . . . . of no perceived performance advantage
. . . . . they feel it adds unnecessary cost
I have two questions. Why is there so much adamant opposition to a part that supposedly offers no performance advantage? Why would drivers leave the class if it was not mandatory, but only an option with no performance advantage?"
If more driver felt better about their cars, would it not have the opposite effect?
With that being said, I agree it would certainly be more desirable if both F1200 and SCCA rules would coincide.
Otherwise leave the F1200 class alone. Change will cost you more drivers then it will add, IMO at least.[/QUOTE]
Why didn't you raise your hand at the AGM to be the only vote against the test? This contradict your statement above..."leave the class alone". We as a group said yes to the test...no vote on change though. If you have concerns...why didn't you communicate them where the group discussed the test in detail? Guy made the trip and had a lot of positive and sometimes passive-aggressive comments that kept the party alive. Loved the interaction with all the different humor and characters differences.
Or....do you not feel part of the f1200 group anymore? I admit I don't know you but would like to invite you back as a friend and be part of the Vee family. We need all, big and tall...fat like me or skinny as some. We disagree a lot but love the sport.
Notice your numerous contributions on Apex...why not updating our facebook page(https://www.facebook.com/groups/344736898869/) with all your contributions, quotes and knowledge? We need more active participation. Would like to see all the Vee family post pictures of them and their vees...past and present. I challenge you to be the first one to post on our page after this babbling as someone mentioned.
ps. Kevin...I thought it's stock manifolds...now I need the modified one? The search is on.....Jurgen?
Why didn't you raise your hand at the AGM to be the only vote against the test? This contradict your statement above..."leave the class alone". We as a group said yes to the test...no vote on change though. If you have concerns...why didn't you communicate them where the group discussed the test in detail? Guy made the trip and had a lot of positive and sometimes passive-aggressive comments that kept the party alive. Loved the interaction with all the different humor and characters differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan W
Or....do you not feel part of the f1200 group anymore? I admit I don't know you but would like to invite you back as a friend and be part of the Vee family. We need all, big and tall...fat like me or skinny as some. We disagree a lot but love the sport.
Notice your numerous contributions on Apex...why not updating our facebook page(https://www.facebook.com/groups/344736898869/) with all your contributions, quotes and knowledge? We need more active participation. Would like to see all the Vee family post pictures of them and their vees...past and present. I challenge you to be the first one to post on our page after this babbling as someone mentioned.
ps. Kevin...I thought it's stock manifolds...now I need the modified one? The search is on.....Jurgen?[/QUOTE]
I tried to PM you but it won't let me. Here is my e-mail Send me a message and we'll talk about your manifold engine etc.... kkapelke1@gmail.com
Just responding about the Womer steering box...I took a shot of it last night.
It's a clever design and I really like the response (when its adjusted).
But the box is mounted upside down and directly between my knees. Despite some foam padding and knee pads...I get decent bruises from it. Luckily, never any injuries from the occasional shunts.
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/photo...AQ2GHX2E5O-glw
Johan,
Why are you moving away from being able to run the cars in Canada as well as the USA in the SCCA? That makes zero sense to me. Correct me if I am wrong but these cars will not be legal in the SCCA now? What happens with the Can/Am races then?
You have a few people pushing for change in F1200 but many like the status quo. You will lose drivers over time "IMO" as I stated before. Hopefully I am wrong. What's next? A different engine package as well?
Hard to raise my hand at the AGM when I was not there but as long as I pay my dues I am still part of the FTDA correct?
You will attract more drivers by going to karting tracks, offering test days, having arrive & drive teams/programs then you will by changing the rule set. With AVR leaving you lost 3-4 cars on your grid if I recall correctly.
Like I said before, this is my opinion. If, & it is a big if, this can be proven to improve safety conclusively then you have my support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bam Bam
BamBam / FV1200 guys,
While this has the potential to lead us off topic slightly, for those of us south of the border, what changes are "people pushing for" within the F1200 group?
.
Few, very few have asked for the proposed idea of allowing 1600 engines, disc brakes as well as the above listed topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Clark
Karmaboy, try a old knee pad, the kind you'd use for H.S. wrestling. They work really well just strap it over the steering box simple fix. The ones sold at hardware stores aren't soft enough. The fire extinguisher also needs a little seat padding. The Womer design makes for a really clean floor in the car, great for a straight leg driving position, if you like driving with your knees bent, you'll still get a little banged up.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5001/5...f60560cc_n.jpg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/242672...7625275321843/
here is a bunch of Womer pictures
Fv/F1200 will attract who it attracts,people who want to race,its nothing to do with how the car looks,its a racing car and about as cheap as you can get to start racing and stay or move upwards to another MORE expensive class.Ive had young/old people talk to me at the track,look at the car ask questions,you let them sit in it etc.99% of them are blown away when you tell them its a VW Beetle engine etc,etc,Most people like myself when starting didnt give a thought about boxes/racks/tires and so on,we just drooled in the garage and tinkered with the car got to the race and felt like Senna in our F1 car,took photos,had the family there or not.I eventually found out I wasnt a great race-driver,always at the back but i didnt give a SH###I WAS racing,lots of spectators were wishing it was them,but it was ME....having a box or rack makes no performance advantage so who cares what you use,leave it to the individual,now manifolds and so on are a different matter....dont be so scared to change:rolleyes:
1600 engine,disc brakes,steering rack Ummmmmm cheaper custom duties on VW parts,big breasted women holding sponsor flags,and no slick costs keep the falkens,no messing with manifolds,and STRONG Canadian beer Sunday nights:beer:;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Clark
Yes, I do intend to run in F1200 again, but probably not next year as I am keen to go to the Run-Offs.
I didn’t speak up against Jurgen’s conversion at the recent F1200 meeting (which wasn’t the AGM btw) as I was wrong footed by the claim that VW Steering Boxes are becoming scarce. If that was true then I could see its value and support it. However, as we have now established that Steering Boxes are available, I would prefer that Jurgen and Kevin do not experiment with a steering rack at this time.
I have driven the very FV1600 from which Jurgen took the centre-steering rack and think that it would work very well. But having tasted the sweeter meat, you’ll have a hard time returning to the Steering Box.
In short it is probably better to leave Pandora’s Box closed at this point.
The comment about the ugly lump on a Protoform’s nose is ironic when it placed right next to the very ugly Beam.
Part of the beauty of FV is it simplicity. Even I can fix them. Does the youth of today really want the complexity of modern day cars, ECUs, fault codes, getting stuck in ‘limp-mode’?
Also, Steering Racks (and Disc Brakes) are available in Formula First, but it hasn’t really caught the public’s imagination. I cannot see people flocking to F1200 just because steering racks have been adopted.
Incidentally, NASCAR and many Circle-Track cars use steering boxes.
Guy.
As Guy said, Disc Brakes, Steering Racks are available in a different class along with the 1600 engine. If you think those are good options get a few cars together & start in Formula Libre as that is a good option for what some want. There is a place to race these cars here in Canada.
Once you get all the newbies on board who were not looking to go into FV due to them not having steering racks, disc brakes & a 1600 cc engine then you can have your own race group.
You don't need to try to change FV as there already is a class you are wanting.
We already have issues with getting more drivers to the track.
Any un-nessessary Modifications or rule changes will make this even worse.
Right now no cars are running racks, so if the rules were changed there would be an assumption that they are better and a required change. Which means money, time, engineering installation (no vee is the same). Those cars that are sitting in garages, barns, might sit a little longer.
Honestly from what I have heard, there is no performance advantage to having a rack on a vee (i could be wrong).
But no matter what changes are made, every time we make a change that is going to force drivers to spend more $$$, there is possibility we will effect car counts and participation.
I will agree with BamBam, if changes are made in an effort to make cars safer, then let's go for it.
If parts are not available moving forward, then yes we have to look and making changes.
For the most part F1200 and SCCA are very close. F1200 does not require fire suppression at this time and we run a Spec radial tire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Clark
There are many drivers from the F1200's that ran both Canadian and US races. Many of them posting here.
I think the success of the Can-Am series this year proves that there are drivers will to cross the border to attend more races. Yes there were cars running both slicks and radials on the track at the same time, while I was not there at Watkins Glen, I understand that there was very competitive racing between all cars, regardless of what tire package they were running.
Having the rules coincide is important to success of the series.
Kevin, you are right, we do have cars with older technology, but aside of adapting and entire package like FST. My personal opinion, there is no fundamental difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
We still have No Wings, we will still have Low HP and for the most part all our cars will look the same. At the end of the day, Costs and Time are the 2 biggest factors that driver ANY driver. There are other options for "Open Wheel" racing, but they are leaps and bounds ahead of F1200/Vee's when is comes to $$$ and time.
At the end of the day, the fundamental goal for this series, is to be entry level, cost conscious and fun.