Apology

Coop, me bro, you are right on target with the eBay special scenario. You have been in this motorcycle engine game longer than most and you should remember the discrepancy in performance that existed in the "stock" motor classes when we were racing bikes. The expensive engine builders buy a boat load of parts and find the ones that offer an advantage. Such as the lightest and/or longest pin to pin rods, pistons, piston pins, camshafts, gears and clutch assemblies. They then take every tolerance to the max according to the manual or their interpretation of it. Damn the longevity of the engine, it will haul ass. All of the machine work done to each and every component to eek out that last bit of performance adds up to the total package when done. I did not consider these to be "as run in the bike" stock motors then and don't consider it now, but that is the game. Not that I am sour about it, but I did get beat for the WERA 750 Stock championship by a Smokin Joe's Honda(DuHammel's) and a Yoshimura Suzuki(Russel's) at Road Atlanta a life time ago. Passed'm in the corners and got blown off the track down the straights. Just trying to make a point that racers will exploit rules for an advantage no matter what the consequences and I still feel that JR's punishment does not fit the crime.

^^^^ I like this guy

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Originally Posted by Darryl Wills

All of the machine work done to each and every component to eek out that last bit of performance adds up to the total package when done.

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If the builder is doing machine work that is not in the factory service manual (and there is almost none in the Suzuki FSM) then the engine is not legal for FB. This is why I would never let a AMA motorcycle engine builder touch an engine for FB. They have no idea what is legal for FB.

I am sure that no one is getting a legal 6-10 HP out of building an engine for FB over stock or wrecked bike stuff. The engine that won the runoffs was a wrecked bike motor and the second place car had a stock motor out of bike that never ran.

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Originally Posted by JohnPaul

BS, U4 didn't melt anything, I and just about anyone that races motorcycles have been using it for at least 7 years and it never did anything to any engine I've ever seen. U4 hardly burns.
Btw: I love the way it smells

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Lucian melted down a motor on Friday practice running u4 obviously he ran it to lean. There was an entire valve evaporated and two deformed pistons. After he came and told us he was running the fuel but wasn't told it was illegal however he stated he would not run it again. This motor also had a sizeable amount of material machined from the head surface. Again he stated he was unaware that the motor had been modified in this way by his prep team.

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Originally Posted by rickb99

Where did that opinion come from?

When I talked to the Tech Steward the issue with Lucian's engine had nothing to do with fuel. Rather, some "ridges" that seemed to be missing when viewed with a bore scope (that was true of "several" engines viewed).

BUT, no way was tech about to say the engine was illegal without a complete tear down which they were unwilling to do.

If I recall correctly, Lucian changed out that engine just to be safe.

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As previously stated lucians motor melted Down on Friday in a practice session. JRO had the motor that appeared to look like there was material removed from the combustion chamber surface. He was advised that they did not beleive his motor was compliant and that they did not want to see that motor in a car the next day. It should also be noted that in race 2 after the engine swap jr was now fighting tooth and nail with the pack to maintain the lead even relinquishing it at one point. In race one he comfortably pulled away from the field. Maybe he wasn't using the fuel ( although the steward told us they smelled it again and asked if we would like to protest again.) or the motor swap had an effect on his performance.

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Originally Posted by Alex Pate

As previously stated lucians motor melted Down on Friday in a practice session. JRO had the motor that appeared to look like there was material removed from the combustion chamber surface. He was advised that they did not beleive his motor was compliant and that they did not want to see that motor in a car the next day. It should also be noted that in race 2 after the engine swap jr was now fighting tooth and nail with the pack to maintain the lead even relinquishing it at one point. In race one he comfortably pulled away from the field. Maybe he wasn't using the fuel ( although the steward told us they smelled it again and asked if we would like to protest again.) or the motor swap had an effect on his performance.

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Could it be that he drove a poor race because he was up all night changing a motor and didn't get any rest OR get a chance to make any changes to his set-up for the next day....

I am not defending or afirming anyone's actions, just trying to make sure that everyone takes into account the impact of what an all nighter can do to a driver/race team. Let's not assume that his pace was the direct result of a fuel or motor change.

[quote=Richard Dziak;303606]Perhaps there should be an equalizer, and that being everyone uses the same fuel...86 octane pump gas. I believe that this was a topic of discussion here on the message boards under FB.

I also believe that there was a lot of input about ignition of fuel in the engines and that the lower octane fuels burn better.

This is amatuer racing and I agree with the one poster ....that once the protester knew the competitor was using the U4.4 fuel, it should have been a topic of discussion between the drivers. It is not worth setting trends and causing suspensions over a cheap trophy, the need for a podium finish, and no compensation for a win. It is only a ego thing. We are all out for fun, in a great sport with great racing machines.

Sorry to hear that a good driver who has a good reputation amoung his peers had to be suspended for 3 months. I have never met the suspended driver but know of his reputation and driving skills from his own competitors here on ApexSpeed.

Lets leave this driver be, as I am sure ....he his sufferring enough knowing that he is out of his racing machine for 3 months.

By next racing season, this issue will have passed and will not be a big deal. Time heals all wounds.[Time heals alll wounds and all bleeding stops.quote]

would it take all night to change an engine?
I've seen it done in under two hours, and that's w/ a blow up and all the extra work that entails, as opposed to a straight up swap on a runner.

86 Octane? That swill would hardly run a Toro.

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Originally Posted by Wright D

Could it be that he drove a poor race because he was up all night changing a motor and didn't get any rest OR get a chance to make any changes to his set-up for the next day....

I am not defending or afirming anyone's actions, just trying to make sure that everyone takes into account the impact of what an all nighter can do to a driver/race team. Let's not assume that his pace was the direct result of a fuel or motor change.

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Anything is posible but They were parked behind us and their lights were out fairly early

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Originally Posted by Alex Pate

Lucian melted down a motor on Friday practice running u4 obviously he ran it to lean. There was an entire valve evaporated and two deformed pistons.

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Not surprising. Many (most?) of the higher-performance fuels use oxygenates that lower the stoichiometric point of the fuel. You have to run these a LOT richer, and some closed-loop systems won't go that far without adding fuel pressure, tweaking the MAF or changing the map. There are SCCA-legal fuels that run as low as 13.7; I would imagine that some of the "hot" fuels go far lower.

If you're going to play with fuels, you need to learn how to read a data sheet and what questions to ask about the fuel. A burned-up engine doesn't mean that the fuel can't run in that car - but it may mean you have to do some real work to get it running right.

"Well said"

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You guys have to be joking if you think that JR's circumstance is going to keep racers from exploiting the rules for any advantage. Why do you think that a "stock" motor from an engine builder puts out more HP than an eBay motor? All this BS did was to impose an excessive penalty on a competitor for running fuel that does not meet the arbitrary fuel rules of the SCCA. I say arbitrary because the fuel is legal in AMA Pro/Am, CCS, WERA, AFM, NMA, WORCS, SCORE and Best in the Desert. Loss of points for the weekend, penalty points on license and a promise not to run the big bad, kill everyone in the pits fuel again should have been good enough.

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I think it's worse though to let such behavior continue. Like it or not with the fall out of this protest I don't believe anyone will chance risky fuel, motors etc. The bar has been set and JR has been made an example

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Nobody wants any cheating or questionable fuel stuff to continue. And JR has been made the example, which nobody is contesting either. The only gripe I have with it, is the severity of the penalty, the 3 month suspension to be exact. A DQ for the weekend, points on your license and dealing with a probation is a PITA and not at all letting JR off the hook. This would still send a pretty harsh message to all about fuel and the rules in general, but still allows one of our best ad to the big show in Sept.

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Originally Posted by LLoshak

"Well said"





Nobody wants any cheating or questionable fuel stuff to continue. And JR has been made the example, which nobody is contesting either. The only gripe I have with it, is the severity of the penalty, the 3 month suspension to be exact. A DQ for the weekend, points on your license and dealing with a probation is a PITA and not at all letting JR off the hook. This would still send a pretty harsh message to all about fuel and the rules in general, but still allows one of our best ad to the big show in Sept.

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Lawrence you should run an fb at the runoffs then we will have one more top notch guy for the show

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Originally Posted by Alex Pate

Lucian melted down a motor on Friday practice running u4 obviously he ran it to lean. There was an entire valve evaporated and two deformed pistons. After he came and told us he was running the fuel but wasn't told it was illegal however he stated he would not run it again. This motor also had a sizeable amount of material machined from the head surface. Again he stated he was unaware that the motor had been modified in this way by his prep team.

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then he has the first motor to "melt" using U4' doubt it though.

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Originally Posted by JohnPaul

then he has the first motor to "melt" using U4' doubt it though.

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Not quite sure what there is to doubt. One valve missing from the head two deformed pistons and good ol George was kind enough to build him another motor (stock this time) just to get him back in the game. This is not hearsay as I saw the melted motor in question with my own eyes. What a sight to see.

Thanks Alex, I hope that wasnt sarcasm!! :D Love DSR. But if I knew FB was going to take off like this, or even FB at all when I ordered my WF1, I may have become a FB driver. Lets just say I'm keeping an eye on the development of the pro series. :p

FWIW, the fuel isn't exactly the cause of the melt down. But the owner not knowing that the engine must be remapped, is. Just dumping in this fuel absolutely needs a retune or you will go lean unless your original map was insanely rich to begin with.

Rule of thumb: more power, needs more fuel.

But regardless, we're racing. Engines fail. But if a engine runs so lean, it'll melt a piston or burn up a valve.

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Originally Posted by LLoshak

Thanks Alex, I hope that wasnt sarcasm!! :D Love DSR. But if I knew FB was going to take off like this, or even FB at all when I ordered my WF1, I may have become a FB driver. Lets just say I'm keeping an eye on the development of the pro series. :p

FWIW, the fuel isn't exactly the cause of the melt down. But the owner not knowing that the engine must be remapped, is. Just dumping in this fuel absolutely needs a retune or you will go lean unless your original map was insanely rich to begin with.

Rule of thumb: more power, needs more fuel.

But regardless, we're racing. Engines fail. But if a engine runs so lean, it'll melt a piston or burn up a valve.

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No sarcasm intended. I beleive it does say dsr national champ on your tag so I figured maybe your a little fast. Plus they seemed to talk about you alot at the runoffs last year. And I understand it wasn't just the fuel it was the fact that it wasn't tuned for the fuel.

Penalty is a bit harsh for a first offense (if it's his first fuel offense)

Here's the published 'standard' penalites that they have for the SEDIV

http://www.sedivracing.org/2011_Penalty_Guidelines.pdf

After all that has been talked about regarding fuel in the last year anyone should be doing their homework if they aren't going to run track fuel.

I do believe the answer is track fuel.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

Jay -

Track fuel is great when the track has a fuel available that will work for every class - and many tracks do (Road Am, Watkins Glen, Summit Point, etc.). What about tracks like Portland, though, where there are no pumps? What about Grattan and Nelson (not sure about the quality and variety of fuels there)?

Speaking for myself only, I don't want a repeat of this year's Sprints, where we paid $9+/gal for $3.99 street fuel (under mandate as "spec" fuel).

This whole fuel question stinks - there's no easy answer.

Very true Marshall. My main point was that track fuel is always legal. I agree that the price can be steep. If we buy fuel at a street pump (93 octane) we always get it tested as soon as tech is available to hande the test.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

From my understanding, these test are no longer available via trackside? And all they tested for is DC levels. When sent to a lab, much further evaluation is performed. So, is it possible to pass a DC test but fail the lab test? I'm scratching my head.

The past couple of seasons, I purchase my own fuel (sunoco) in Slinger. I worry to much about the consistancy, cleanliness, how pure of the fuel and condition of the holding tanks because of how we tune our motors to the ragged edge. The runoffs is the only time I use track fuel but its the same fuel we use and tune for, all season. I also have a wideband in the car at all times to always monitor any possible changes and/or catch possible melt downs. But I dont expect anyone to be as anal as me, I lose a lot of sleep over things like this, some call me crazy. :D

But up until then, I always used track fuel. But when buying 110 leaded for $9, its not that bad of a mark up to swallow. But for guys wanting 93, it seems a bit steep. But usually a car needs a max of 20 gallons a weekend. So, its less than $100 extra than hauling a bunch of gas around yourself, not to mention taking the time to go pick it up and barrel deposits etc. So, add ones time, plus gas to drive a truck round trip to pick up race gas, the risk of hauling it around and the risk of being legal, the $100 doesn't sound too steep.

Also, I wanted to add to this whole topic. 6-8hp or whatever this fuel might give is proportionate to your tuner and tuning. I see alot of people running Bazzaz auto-tunes and some just adjusting fuel psi up and down. My point is, you can easily find 6-8hp with any fuel, through a good tune with a talented tuner who cares.

If its not fuel, its the shifters. If its not shifters, its frontal area or floors or weight... THere will always be people who are always going to look for the next best thing, the next edge. It's evolution. I guess my real point is, concentrate to be extracting 100% out of what you have. Dont be afraid to make tweaks, think outside the box. Keep good records and dont be scared to try a different set-up. What works for him doesnt mean it'll work for you. Set-up and driver comfort, which equals driver confidence in the car = faster lap times. Too many people get wrapped up with what others have and they dont but are some of the first to go to the beer party when others are still tweaking, thinking.

Dont ask me why all of a sudden I decided to write a inspirational post, I have no idea! But the fact of the matter is, racing is a thinking mans sport. It isnt just pushing on pedals and turning a steering wheel. So ask yourself, are you maximizing your program? BTW, this isnt directed toward anyone, its just me rambling away, to try to energize the brilliance, within us all, to go faster!!!!!!

See you all at the race track!

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Originally Posted by LLoshak

From my understanding, these test are no longer available via trackside? And all they tested for is DC levels. When sent to a lab, much further evaluation is performed. So, is it possible to pass a DC test but fail the lab test? I'm scratching my head.

The past couple of seasons, I purchase my own fuel (sunoco) in Slinger. I worry to much about the consistancy, cleanliness, how pure of the fuel and condition of the holding tanks because of how we tune our motors to the ragged edge. The runoffs is the only time I use track fuel but its the same fuel we use and tune for, all season. I also have a wideband in the car at all times to always monitor any possible changes and/or catch possible melt downs. But I dont expect anyone to be as anal as me, I lose a lot of sleep over things like this, some call me crazy. :D

But up until then, I always used track fuel. But when buying 110 leaded for $9, its not that bad of a mark up to swallow. But for guys wanting 93, it seems a bit steep. But usually a car needs a max of 20 gallons a weekend. So, its less than $100 extra than hauling a bunch of gas around yourself, not to mention taking the time to go pick it up and barrel deposits etc. So, add ones time, plus gas to drive a truck round trip to pick up race gas, the risk of hauling it around and the risk of being legal, the $100 doesn't sound too steep.

Also, I wanted to add to this whole topic. 6-8hp or whatever this fuel might give is proportionate to your tuner and tuning. I see alot of people running Bazzaz auto-tunes and some just adjusting fuel psi up and down. My point is, you can easily find 6-8hp with any fuel, through a good tune with a talented tuner who cares.

If its not fuel, its the shifters. If its not shifters, its frontal area or floors or weight... THere will always be people who are always going to look for the next best thing, the next edge. It's evolution. I guess my real point is, concentrate to be extracting 100% out of what you have. Dont be afraid to make tweaks, think outside the box. Keep good records and dont be scared to try a different set-up. What works for him doesnt mean it'll work for you. Set-up and driver comfort, which equals driver confidence in the car = faster lap times. Too many people get wrapped up with what others have and they dont but are some of the first to go to the beer party when others are still tweaking, thinking.

Dont ask me why all of a sudden I decided to write a inspirational post, I have no idea! But the fact of the matter is, racing is a thinking mans sport. It isnt just pushing on pedals and turning a steering wheel. So ask yourself, are you maximizing your program? BTW, this isnt directed toward anyone, its just me rambling away, to try to energize the brilliance, within us all, to go faster!!!!!!

See you all at the race track!

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Sounds like you have had a few late nights tweaking as well
Cheers

I just got back from an extended visit in Britain, and just read about J.R.

Everything that needs to be said already has! Personally I have found J.R. to be a personable, honest and very competitive guy! A gentleman as well.

But THREE MONTHS?!!! That seems a lot for a first offense.

FWIW, it is my opinion.

Bret lane,

it is my understanding that Aviation Gasoline fuel is legal to use.

Why would 100 low lead from the airport burn up your engine ?

I don't understand why you would have this issue using aviation fuel ?

help me understand.

Thanks.

Mike

[quoteAvgas
Your the second person to ask me that, maybe "burn up" was a poor choice of words. Avgas is 100LL, and LL stands for low lead. The more Tetra Ethel Lead in the fuel, the cooler it burns. Avgas burns hotter than the same octane leaded fuel you'd buy at the track. As far as I know aircraft engines are designed to run with a hotter combustion.

You can run Avgas, but I don't think it's very good for a bike engine.

Regards......Brett


Bret Lane,

It is my understanding that Aviation Gasoline fuel is legal to use.

Being controled by the FAA rules, i would think it was made to a higher specification than street gas or even Racing gass ?

Aircraft engines are air cooled & work at a very high load factor like a racing engine.

They are different than bike 1000 cc engines in that they are typically a big bore engine - 4 cylinders with 360 cubic inches or 6 cylinders with 540 cubic inches. Rpm is typically 2700 rpm to keep the propeller blade tips from going supersonic.

With a higher lead content that is put there for anti-detination in the cylinders, Why would 100 low lead from the airport burn up your engine ?

I don't understand why you would have this issue using aviation fuel ? Is the flame front that much slower ?

help me understand.

Thanks.

Mike[/quote]

AvGAS, etc. Why is everyone talking so much about what they can and can't use for fuel? Use what the track has to offer, make sure its approved by the organizer and be done with it. Time is money and the less time you spend on figuring out what you can use or going to an airport, or whatever, is money you can spend for the extra few bucks its going to cost at the track.

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Originally Posted by ASRF1000

AvGAS, etc. Why is everyone talking so much about what they can and can't use for fuel? Use what the track has to offer, make sure its approved by the organizer and be done with it. Time is money and the less time you spend on figuring out what you can use or going to an airport, or whatever, is money you can spend for the extra few bucks its going to cost at the track.

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There is about a $4/gallon price difference between avgas and track fuel. That is easily $100+ that can be saved over a weekend. I think you would be surprised how much $100 means to a lot of racers.

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Originally Posted by Wren

I think you would be surprised how much $100 means to a lot of racers.

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You're not kidding. $100 will feed my driver for half a day.

I thought that post would get things going.....LOL

What I'm getting at is the organizer has to clearly state what is and what is not legal in the rules. That's the only way there is not going to be an issue. And, they have to be ready and prepared to test fuel and allow teams to test their fuel at the beginning of the weekend, or the point of having a rule is moot.

If not, then there can't be any clear direction of what is and what is not legal. I'm sorry, I'm just not used to this whole club thing. I know it's a place to go racing at a minimal cost. I understand that $100 means alot to many racers, it does to me as well. I know it's a place to have fun and enjoy the sport and I can appreciate keeping costs down as much as possible. Believe me, I do understand that.

The difficulty I have is that its a gray area between having strict rules and having fun. If AVGAS is legal, then that should be the spec fuel and everyone should have to run it. If there is a fuel out there that costs $3 / gal, I'm all for it, but the only way to strictly enforce it is to make it the fuel everyone has to run.

I've been involved in professional racing since I first started in 1987, so I appologize as club racing is all new to me. We always had clear and precise rules. Our costs were more probably, but we either had to accept it or not race. We've always had to run spec fuels, etc.

I just think as long as different fuels are being allowed in the same class, you're always going to have this debate as to what you can run or not. Just my opinion.

I have to remember, in club racing you're not racing for money, but a trophy, so its hard to offset your costs. Racing at the club level is 100% expense with no possibility of any financial return.

"Racing at the club level is 100% expense with no possibility of any financial return."

Well, that's true. The only return is the satisfaction one gets. And one great key to anyone getting any satisfaction is to keep the playing field flat. Simple and flat. So:

One fuel. One spiggot for all competitors -- gotten right there at the race track. No more ever even having to consider edgy fuels -- no one worrying that someone else might be getting an edge on them fuel-wise.

I can't believe anyone here wants to get into a chemestry competition to see who can get the last minute bit of horsepower from the fuel they're using... I think people would rather just wholly remove this element of the equation and simply race.

Keep it simple, guys. It's worth the few additional bucks that it might cost. Or, for anyone really has a problem with those few additional bucks... maybe they could start the at-track fuel-concession and make an extra buck instead of spending it.

What percentage of anyone's yearly racing budget could we possibly be talking about when it comes to using race-track fuel? .002%?

This is so very easy to solve. And "one fuel/one spiggot" would also save anyone else from finding themselves in JR's awful (and sad) predicament.

Regards to all,

Chris Crowe

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Originally Posted by starkejt

You're not kidding. $100 will feed my driver for half a day.

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Sweet Tea
Outta my nose
Onto the keyboard...

:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Christopher Crowe

"Racing at the club level is 100% expense with no possibility of any financial return."

Well, that's true. The only return is the satisfaction one gets. And one great key to anyone getting any satisfaction is to keep the playing field flat. Simple and flat. So:

One fuel. One spiggot for all competitors -- gotten right there at the race track. No more ever even having to consider edgy fuels -- no one worrying that someone else might be getting an edge on them fuel-wise.

I can't believe anyone here wants to get into a chemestry competition to see who can get the last minute bit of horsepower from the fuel they're using... I think people would rather just wholly remove this element of the equation and simply race.

Keep it simple, guys. It's worth the few additional bucks that it might cost. Or, for anyone really has a problem with those few additional bucks... maybe they could start the at-track fuel-concession and make an extra buck instead of spending it.

What percentage of anyone's yearly racing budget could we possibly be talking about when it comes to using race-track fuel? .002%?

This is so very easy to solve. And "one fuel/one spiggot" would also save anyone else from finding themselves in JR's awful (and sad) predicament.

Regards to all,

Chris Crowe

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Very well put.
Clear, concise, succinct.

I'm starting to like this guy...

I'm not sure $100 would last even half a day if he was having to go through Tim Hortons in Canada. :) :rolleyes:

By the way, why isn't he here? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

I'm not sure $100 would last even half a day if he was having to go through Tim Hortons in Canada. :) :rolleyes:

By the way, why isn't he here? :confused:

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Too many upgrades to do to the car that kept getting put off to make it to the events. Finally just had to skip one to get it all done.

What is $100 US right now? $0.40CAD?

$.95 CDN

$.95 CND if you walk into a bank. Walk into a retail establishment (Tim Hortons) with US dollars and they exchange for about $.77 or you don't get any coffee. :) ...$.50 cents if you are Fast Matt wearing a Boston Bruins T-shirt. :(

Most cashiers very pleasantly mumble something like, "Payback is hell." :rolleyes:

Guys, you are off 2 orders of magnitude... $0.95 is 95 cents....

Here's the key....when you're going to a foriegn country, get your money changed at a bank. If you go to almost any country with foreign currency and use it right at the counter, your going to lose.

Pretty simple concept.

Boy, I'm sorry I ever brought up Avgas. I haven't had to type this much since I was selling papers in college!

Again, there is no additional lead for anti-detonation properties in avgas- that's why it's called low lead. In the 80's I flew DC-6's for a while, and if you pulled more than 53 inches(the engines pulled somewhere around 70 inches running 115/145 purple fully leaded fuel), those Pratt's would start detonating-going off like naval cannons at around 115 knots on the runway. Of course that was supercharged horsepower, but that's what happens when you don't run the fuel the engine was designed to run on.

I'm not an expert with fuel, I'm just giving my opinion based on my experience. And it is just my opinion that avgas should be burned in airplanes, and a good race fuel bought at the track should be run in these cars. It's an extra $100 bucks or so, but I think it's worth it.

Brett

And I'm with Jon on the money exchange thing. Or use a credit card...always gives you the best exchange rate at the time of purchase.

Brett

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Originally Posted by Brett Lane

Boy, I'm sorry I ever brought up Avgas. I haven't had to type this much since I was selling papers in college!

Again, there is no additional lead for anti-detonation properties in avgas- that's why it's called low lead. In the 80's I flew DC-6's for a while, and if you pulled more than 53 inches(the engines pulled somewhere around 70 inches running 115/145 purple fully leaded fuel), those Pratt's would start detonating-going off like naval cannons at around 115 knots on the runway. Of course that was supercharged horsepower, but that's what happens when you don't run the fuel the engine was designed to run on.

I'm not an expert with fuel, I'm just giving my opinion based on my experience. And it is just my opinion that avgas should be burned in airplanes, and a good race fuel bought at the track should be run in these cars. It's an extra $100 bucks or so, but I think it's worth it.

Brett

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I understand the same fuel for everyone preventing cheating, however isn't racing fuel a waste of $ since these stock engines were designed to run on premium pump gas? I also don't understand why pump gas sold at the track has to be so expensive since they don't have to pay road tax on it. I'm not in this class but do run straight pump gas in my Formula S Busa powered Ralt with no problems. I'm just sayin. :o

I've found, in Canada at least, that hotels generally give you very close to the 'official' exchange rate.

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Originally Posted by formulasuper

I understand the same fuel for everyone preventing cheating, however isn't racing fuel a waste of $ since these stock engines were designed to run on premium pump gas? I also don't understand why pump gas sold at the track has to be so expensive since they don't have to pay road tax on it. I'm not in this class but do run straight pump gas in my Formula S Busa powered Ralt with no problems. I'm just sayin. :o

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Simply because the distributors want to capitalize on the market and make the increased margin. Don't forget, most of these tracks don't own the fuel in the ground. Its a petroleum distributor and that distributor has to pay the track so much per gallon for the privelege of selling it. Its basically markup all around. Not that its right, just the reason why its so much higher at the track.

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Originally Posted by formulasuper

I understand the same fuel for everyone preventing cheating

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All it does it make tech much easier and prevent you from having to buy the high dollar stuff to be on an even playing field (at least fuel-wise).

I think everybody ought to bring whatever they want to run in a 5 gal jug to pregrid. Coin toss says run what you brung or switch with the guy in front/behind you. No more tech required, 50/50 chance you are going to give your competitor the advantage you were hoping for or get stuck running the crap gas you brought hoping to swap :)

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Sweet Tea
Outta my nose
Onto the keyboard...

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Southern Haiku, wonderful!

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

All it does it make tech much easier and prevent you from having to buy the high dollar stuff to be on an even playing field (at least fuel-wise).

I think everybody ought to bring whatever they want to run in a 5 gal jug to pregrid. Coin toss says run what you brung or switch with the guy in front/behind you. No more tech required, 50/50 chance you are going to give your competitor the advantage you were hoping for or get stuck running the crap gas you brought hoping to swap :)

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And then melt your motor cause you didn't tune for that 35$/gal exotic fuel

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Originally Posted by Alex Pate

And then melt your motor cause you didn't tune for that 35$/gal exotic fuel

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That's exactly what I was thinking.:(

In reality, I don't think anybody it going to bring high dollar fuel with a HP advantage if there is a 50/50 chance they are going to give it to their competitor. They'd probably bring something they are okay with running as well as run against.

If the same deal happened with wheels and tires, how many sets of stickers are showing up on the grid? How many sets of rock hard 15 heat cycle tires?

Just trying to think outside the box. Obviously there are a few flaws in the concept ;)

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

In reality, I don't think anybody it going to bring high dollar fuel with a HP advantage if there is a 50/50 chance they are going to give it to their competitor. They'd probably bring something they are okay with running as well as run against.

If the same deal happened with wheels and tires, how many sets of stickers are showing up on the grid? How many sets of rock hard 15 heat cycle tires?

Just trying to think outside the box. Obviously there are a few flaws in the concept ;)

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Just giving you a hard time Daryl. I understand the concept but it becomes rather similar to a claimer series in that way

No problem about the hard time. All my solutions can't be brilliant ;) <----that's sarcasm in case it isn't painfully obvious. ;)