Immediate input needed - FC

Our BOD and CRB members are strangely silent on this issue. Wonder why.

So why is this such a BFD? Because you thought that no technology creep would result from the engine change? Get a grip. Now those seeking that last foot pound of torque are going to do side-by-side evaluations of both systems and the winner will be...

...and the losers will be those without the resources to change their induction systems as they continually evolve. Just like always. So tell me all you wise folks, exatly what has changed?

Genie's out of the bottle and all the wishing in the universe won't get her back in.

Jason,
As the current situation seems to indicate skip the GCR and go straight to threatening lawsuits. The BOD would rather save the CLUB litigation costs than protect the recent investments of its members based on the expectation they would follow their own rules.

Wow were going to be just like Champ Car
inconsistent competition rules
poor management
bad communication and
disenfrancised owners for the benefit of a few

I assure you that all of the persons interested in formula car racing on the advisory committee are very much aware of what is going on and the concerns that you are voicing. Your letters to the BOD/CRB are critical. Remember that what is posted here is not considered in the decision making process. The BOD, CRB and committees are here to represent you.

John LaRue

D.T. :

Yes the GCR does have the caveat that the BoD can, under certain circumstances, change a rule, but in the past it has take very special circumstances, such as a massive safety screwup, for them to do that. Such circumstances have been very rare, and this is not one of them - even the BoD has to ultimately answer to the members and justify their actions, or get voted out.

In actual fact, it is not the BoD that is responsible for this fiasco, but someone in Topeka that gave the original go-ahead to Elan, way outside of their authority. There was a big row about this proposal at the convention, and things are now finally forced out into the open for us to give input. At the moment, I am pretty sure that there are at least 5 BoD members that are dead set against this proposal, and rightly so in my opinion (for whatever that is worth!:D )

A proposal has been sent to the BoD to address the lack of an official rules making process, as well as a means to protest rules passed improperly. It will be interesting to see what, if anything gets done in light of this current fiasco.

As one who was (and is) for Zetec in FC -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greg Mercurio

Our BOD and CRB members are strangely silent on this issue. Wonder why.

So why is this such a BFD? Because you thought that no technology creep would result from the engine change? Get a grip. Now those seeking that last foot pound of torque are going to do side-by-side evaluations of both systems and the winner will be...

...and the losers will be those without the resources to change their induction systems as they continually evolve. Just like always. So tell me all you wise folks, exatly what has changed?

Genie's out of the bottle and all the wishing in the universe won't get her back in.

---

Greg - don't know you, I'm sure you're a nice guy, most racers are, etc, etc. BUT

MY GOD - stay focused. I doubt anyone here didn't expect tech creep eventually. Heck - the bottm line is that eventually there will be an equalization and I'll still get 10K miles outta my engine. The BFD is HOW (and implicitly, why) it's getting done in this case.

Maybe I'm missing it - wouldn't be the first time. But if you mean you don't care HOW this is being ram-rodded down our throats the way it is - I apologize.

You're right - wishing won't do it, but if the club has any semblance of structure and procedure ACTION - like Richard and John mention - SHOULD put the genie back in the bottle.

IMHO.

Hi Ron: Thanks.

My left handed dealing with this issue is just that. It is being ram-rodded, it is apparently necessary to be heavy handed for whatever reason, and my approach in this manner is because those who SHOULD and CAN let a little daylight into the why's and wherefor's are NOT.

Is it just me that reads words like "preferably" and "typically" in the rule making process and realizes "they" can/will deviate from the typical and preferred process any time they wish?

You guys/gals that still decide to race with your "club" despite these types of happenings have patience beyond belief. Yes, ALL organizations have their unique issues and the "grass isn't always greener", some issues are acceptable, others are not.

Voting with your race entry fees not only weakens one, it strengthens another. Maybe, eventually they will get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greg Mercurio

..... my approach in this manner is because those who SHOULD and CAN let a little daylight into the why's and wherefor's are NOT.

---

You got that right.

It's been a long winter in MN - can't wait to get back to the track and leave some of this ap-cray behind.

Ron
Wish i had winter as an excuse for being this bored. hopefully see you in Vir.

is it just me, or does anyone else get a headache trying to decipher jon's posts?

mark d

No Mark it's just you.
The plot to this one is a little thicker than unsuspecting vendor is mislead by staff and wronged. I think alot of people know more than they are saying but less than they should.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mark defer

is it just me, or does anyone else get a headache trying to decipher jon's posts?

mark d

---

Hi Mark, you are not the only one having a hard time deciphering Jon's posts. After years of working night and day importing Van Diemen, running the Cooper Series, Group 4 Motorsports Park, etc. Jon has taken some time off and has had some elective surgery. He had a shamlian (large growth) removed from his colon 3 days ago and has been on painkillers ever since. Give him a little time to heal.

I would love to see a lawsuit. Since it would be laughed out of court in minute, Federal Court maybe, anti trust, equal protection, 14th amendment, the open wheel racing community is a joke, spend time and money arguing about nonsense. No sooner did we relegate the pinto to anchor duty that we now have intake argument what a bunch of horse Sh..!

If the SCCA and F2000 are worried about lawsuits than you are cowards. I would love to banckrupt the race team that brings either clubs to court.

BTW I have not read one word of the nonsense written in the previous 4 pages but i would love to toast, in a court room, anyone who brings a lawsuit. BTW, this Year, the Fat Boys are looking for blood and it will come from New Jersey or Florida. Looking forward to paddocking near them also so our umbrella girls can cast a shadow

Charles lets have a lawsuit Finelli

And as far as the FatBoys not getting parts, Fem

I will sue anyone who interferes with my race season by suing SCCA or F2000. I will win and bankrupt them.

Isn't Elan Panoz? I think since they lost Champ Car they are trying to break into the only viable open wheel series left F2000

BTW all the parts from Elan are overpriced junk, nothing aligns, it needs a hammer and chisel to make it fit. body parts are junk, who taught them how to glass, why A arms cost 300.00 dollars is beyond me, pushrod $230.00 give me a break. junk Junk Junk. This whole autoracing is nothing but a scam. Don't get me going on tires that is totally out of control, has anyone stepped back and really look at what we are doing.

Charle the Fat Boy and it is only 10:30pm wait till i get home tonight at 4AM.

you go have to start laying off that bathtub gin thom's been making....

They gota stop putting internet access in bars ! :meatball:

Finelli,
What can terrify a corporate attorney hack more than a committed, recreational, committed, determined, committed, opponent that actually knows the subject field. Actually he might love it the clients accountant should be concerned.

Ahh yes the threat of litigation, what a beautiful scent in the air!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zebra

I will sue anyone who interferes with my race season by suing SCCA or F2000. I will win and bankrupt them.

---

Charles might be a little bit out of his league here. But if someone might trip over one of Andersen's cars and hit their head on an Elan intake manifold LOOK OUT!!!!!! There is one place you don't want to be and that is opposing counsel at one of Charles' lawsuits. He is the Mac Daddy of Ambulance Chasers.

a little digging yesterday turned up some of conflicting info.
one informed source tells me that the rule change is a done deal. but the source said it was important to continue to send letters in opposition for a possible after the fact action.
then another source told me that there are several scca directors who have stated that they will quit if this rule change is rammed through.

then i was told that there are dyno sheets out there that show that there is no performance advantage to the alternate manifold system.
however, another source told me that they have seen in print, letters from the team in question assuring prospective drivers that they will have an advantage over other teams when it comes to engines.
what to believe.........


mark d

NO NEW MANILFOLD NEEDED
I hope no one plans to sue F2000 or SCCA. But I suspect that is what some are intimating. What a waste of time and money. As far as my knowledge of intake manifolds can add to the subject is irrelevent. I can tell you this, that no matter what any one or group of officials might have said to Elan, Elan has a long way to go to show in a court of law that they relied on that statement. Impossible to prove, as for a counter suit alleging fraud and tortious interferance easy to prove and PUNITIVE damages awarded based on the value of Elan, sky is the limit, can you say repaving Lime Rock, better treatment for the neglected volunteers, maybe a new SCCA, I mean F2000 corporate jet. (SCCA I SUSPECT IS BEHIND THIS with Elan)

As for the SCCA short tracking this manifold I bet this may be a get-evan play by SCCA. They are interfering with the F2000 since F2000 has decimated formula car racing in SCCA which, I thought, is what they wanted. SCCA is Miata country now, safe, boring and easy to drive.

Mike, Bob & Al hold strong. BTW change the formula so as not to emphasize SCCA crossover since no one cares to drive SCCA anyway and our cars will be compatable to SCCA but not viceversa.

Chas having Fun

Mark:

The manifold is not a done deal yet, as long as what I've heard from half of the BoD is true. It was the BoD that forced the CRB to treat this as a rules change rather than a "spec line" change as they had planned. Keep the letters coming, and make damned sure you copy it to the BoD.

And yes, a couple of Directors will probably quit if this gets passed somehow. One has already quit as a Liason. I'm not sure exactly how many of the Directors are against this, but I believe that it is at least half, and most of them are pretty pissed off.

There are indeed dyno sheets available, put out by Elan, and they show a clear top end advantage over the QSRE system, but a disadvantage at the bottom end - exactly what one would expect with the shortening of the intake runners. Elan is indeed touting that their system at least has"better throttle response".

The CRB somehow seems to think that this is nothing more than a "spec line change", like changing the allowed pistons or intake valves in the Pinto. If that is true, I'd like to change the spec line on the Pinto intake system and be allowed to make a whole new setup!

I have no idea how such gross misinterpretations of the powers of the CRB has come about, but clearly some in this current group have stepped waaaaaay over the line here.

Would be nice to know what the CRB is thinking. 2 members , Dave Gomberg and Stan Clayton, are regular posters on this site yet have fallen silent on this issue. Mike Sauce posts here and is on the BoD yet is silent.

This is an issue that the members damn sure need to know the truth about what is going on, yet all we get is silence from people who post here regularly. Hell even if we are going to get completely screwed it would be nice to know and the reasons behind it.

Everyone keeps asking the question why and rightly so, but what will happen if this proposal is approved by the BOD. Will Elan be able to deliver the manifold, as a complete item, to all end users starting March 1st? Will Elan sell their manifold at a competitive price in comparison to the manifold that QS supplies? Will Elan sell their manifold to QS? Will QS be allowed to modify their manifold to have the same aero footprint as the Elan manifold? Will the SCCA tech inspectors be able to keep up with the specifications of all the different variations? Will the Elan manifold increase the numbers of cars running in FC? etc,etc,etc.

In a class that started life and thrived for many years using engine components from a single supplier and only allowed the Zetec engine after a long approval process, I can not believe that the persons within our club that are responsible for the rules can allow changes such as the aluminum head and the Elan manifold without history of there performance.

BTW: What ever happen to the weight penalty of the Zetec?

The real lawsuit will be all the drivers suing SCCA to accept F2000 races in order to keep our licenses. I see the F2000 series moving away from SCCA and being sanctioned by NASA or some other organization. Then we will have to sue SCCA when they refuse to accept our renewals since we did not participate in their races. We all would like to keep our licenses and we would all have to sue individually and not as a group.
SCCA does not want us that is clear and their parting shot is this BS manifold which we know does not exist nor should it, makes no sense.
Mike, Bob and Al should see through the smoke and mirrors stay above the fray and toss every car that shows up with the new manifold (that doesn't exist). There is NO BASIS FOR A LAWSUIT but there will be one basis for countersuit with punitive damages as the remedy.

What fun

Charles bring it on NJ/Florida Finelli
I can't wait

I hope the open wheel guys don't think this is the first time something like this has happened in SCCA. This kind of crap is one of the main reasons I have come back to open wheel cars and got out of GT. Below is NOT a quick read, but it is a very similar situation. You may want to take a look at it for a preview of what may be in store for you guys.


http://www.gt-racecar.com/forums/top...?TOPIC_ID=2501

jason
i suspect there are not available parts to immediately supply everyone. but in the interest of "open Commerce" a distribution list will probably be set up alphabetically you'll be second in line behind everyone whos name starts with A.

Letter sent. I am now ordering the parts to convert from zetec to KENT. This nonsense makes the FF new engine crap seem tame.
John
P.S. bet the S2 guys are getting a good laugh at our expense...

Although I am reluctant to jump into this thing, I think there are some things that need to be mentioned again. I’d like to put forth some facts and ask for response:

Fact #1…When the Zetec was approved for use in FC, it was agreed by the parties involved that the specified QSRE parts would be made available to other SCCA members and engine builders. Bob Wright told me he was involved, and that this was the agreement. If someone knows otherwise, please advise

Fact #2…Elan attempted to purchase said parts from QSRE last year and they were denied. In an effort to get QSRE to sell them, Elan asked for assistance from SCCA and from the Pro series. Bob Wright told me they “begged” Sandy to sell the parts to Elan, and Sandy refused. I have been told that the same thing occurred when SCCA tried to get Sandy to sell to Elan. Again, if someone has different facts, please lay them out for us all.

Fact #3…It is my understanding that SCCA was none too pleased with this situation, and they led Elan to believe that if Elan could produce parts that resulted in the same performance (parity), they (SCCA) would look kindly on it. The Pro Series also gave their assurance, and I will quote from their email to Elan (on which I was copied by Mike Rand):
“As and when Elan Power Products F2000 parts and motors are declared legal and accepted by the SCCA for Formula Continental competition the F2000 Championship Series will, on application from Elan Power Products, alter our existing rule mandating all Zetec engines be sealed by either Quicksilver or Elite to include Elan sealed engines as legal in the F2000 Championship Series.This will be done with the full expectation that parity of engines exists and upon proof of such parity and equality through dyno testing, note that both engine and chassis dyno data may be required.Until such approval by SCCA and proof of parity exists the rule requiring all Zetec engines be sealed by either Quicksilver or Elite remains in force”

Fact #4…Based upon these assurances, Elan proceeded to produce their own components, went through the necessary dyno testing, and then followed that with track testing. They then submitted the entire matter to SCCA in the prescribed fashion. SCCA is now considering the submission and taking member input as they generally do. That’s where we now are.

A matter such as this will always have both proponents and opponents, and that is fine. What is hard for me to understand is why many somehow think Elan (and Andersen Racing) are now the enemy. Elan is a racing business and as with all racing businesses, they will look for ways to use their resources and personnel to expand and efficiently develop their business. You can disagree with their request, but why blame them for trying? Elan has done many things for racing, including FC racing, over the years, and I don’t for a minute believe they are trying to hurt it. As far as me and my team go, I have been involved for more than 17 years in formula car racing, and those who raced in my series know I tried very hard to maintain a level playing field despite having more than 6 chassis manufacturers and probably that many engine builders. It seemed to work out well for all involved. As a team owner, I play fair and within the rules, and like every team owner, I look for ways to provide my customers with the best results (and I like to win, if possible). As many know, I signed a “factory team” deal with Elan last year, and despite what some may think, this deal had nothing to do with engines initially. In the final deal, we did agree to try Elan engines if and when they received approval, but it was not at all an important part of the deal. I talked to Mygale and Ralph Firman before selecting to do business with Elan, and thus far I have no complaints whatsoever, despite many people warning me that Elan would be difficult to deal with. They have kept every promise made to me, and I am glad to be affiliated with them. I have 3 RF-08 complete cars in my shop right now, again despite people telling me they would never arrive on time.
Many have asked in this forum “why do we need this”? It’s true that we don’t need this, nor do we “need” new variations on noses, wings, diffusers, shocks, etc. etc. This is an open formula class, and that is part of what makes it more fun than spec classes. These components are worth less than what some of you pay for some of the other “trick” stuff you put on to gain an advantage. Some of you look to headers for more horsepower, right? What is the difference if these intake components become legal parts? Do we need them? No. But is it fair to allow a monopoly (and not one that was ever granted as such) to continue?

Racing in F2000 has been fun, and I consider many of you to be friends. We can and likely will disagree on things from time to time, including this matter, but I am having a hard time understanding why all the venom that’s being directed at Elan (and some at my team and me). As a business, Elan is simply trying to gain approval so they can sell complete cars and engines. As a team, I am simply open to the idea of having an opportunity to purchase an alternative package. Those who don’t want to do business with Elan don’t have to. Anyone who wants to buy will be able to, regardless of what their name begins with or what state they are from. Am I missing something here?
Andersen Racing supports the F2000 Pro series and will be entering 5 cars in all events this season. At least two (and maybe all) will have QSRE and/or Elite power. As far as I am concerned, life will go on either way. The sky is not falling, and if this turns out to get approved and parity is not achieved, I am certain that steps will be taken to correct that.
Let’s keep everything in perspective.
Dan Andersen

corrected

I turn my head for a minute and he's raising hell!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Andersen

Racing in F2000 has been fun, and I consider many of you to be friends. We can and likely will disagree on things from time to time, including this matter, but I am having a hard time understanding why all the venom that’s being directed at Elan (and some at my team and me). As a business, Elan is simply trying to gain approval so they can sell complete cars and engines. As a team, I am simply open to the idea of having an opportunity to purchase an alternative package. Those who don’t want to do business with Elan don’t have to. Anyone who wants to buy will be able to, regardless of what their name begins with or what state they are from. Am I missing something here?

---

Dan, please forgive some of this since I am relatively new here (again) but allow me to share my thoughts on the above. The problem that I believe many people including myself have with this is that it creates yet another variable in the already mixed up equation of engine options. From what I understand, parity has not been completely reached yet between the ztec and iron head pinto, yet we threw in an aluminum head that has yet to be fully compared to what we already have. Then only a few short months later, a new Elan intake manifold is introduced for the ztec?? How is that going to make things any better for us club racers who are on a budget? Will this mean that I will now need to go and buy the Elan intake if I have a ztec or the aluminum head for a pinto because over the first few races of next season we find that they do indeed produce more power/torque/throttle response? How much more? What are we going to do to ensure parity between the 2...I mean 3...oops, 4. We just do not know.....we do not even know what impact the aluminum head is going to have yet, why throw yet another variable into the already mixed up situation?

To make matters worse, it seems that this is being pushed along very quickly and shoved down the members throats. Why would the SCCA feel the need to have someone come on here, make a post and expect responses/comments within a two week period? From what I understand, there is a pretty standard process for getting new rules passed and this seemed to have bypassed those completely? Why did that happen? How did that happen? How was Elan able to do this so easily yet we still cannot get simple modifications allowed to our current iron head pinto to increase logevity? I have been out of SCCA for about 5 years and have come back to this? It all seems very fishy and I really hope that the CRB/BoD does the right thing here and puts a stop to it.

There is NO engine building involved. The engine should be bone stock from a crate with the addition of manifold and dry sump. If anyone is doing otherwise they are trying to get a HP advantage rather than a skill advantage. I bet dollars for donuts that IS ALL SANDY DOES at QSR and he should be allowed to make a profit on his labors.
DAN,
NOW THERE IS AN ISSUE as to whether Sandy at Quick Silver is GOUGING WITH HIS MANOPOLY. Dan, you would be better serving your fellow racers, that is what you ARE trying to do isn't it;) , by telling us the price of a manifold and arguing that Sandy is gouguing us by about $4,000.00 alone on the intake manifold if not more. $15,000.00 - $600.00 for Zetec Crate engine = $14,400.00 missing some where.

As for Elan they do not need to be in the engine business unless they think they can cheat and drive up the cost of racing and create all kinds of nonsense. Go build your overpriced chassis with those parts that need a hammer, chisel and file to make fit, can't wait for their engine to arrive.

Elan should try and say that they could provide the SAME engine for a lot less and guarantee a certain Horse Power for the series. THE SERIES should state that not only should the engine be sealed but can produce no more than X horse power. The top 3 at the end of the series will be Dynoed and if over a certain horspower the engine builder will have to pay a hefty fine to the car/driver which will be disqualified AND the driver will have legal recourse against the Prep shop/Team that provided the car. maybe an Escrow account that would benefit the driver if his car is disqulaified because of cheating by his overpriced team.

A bone stock crate engine sells for $600.00. But of course everyone will try to argue that there are not enough Zetec engines available in crate form and that they will eventually have to be rebuilt and that is where all the phony engine builder snake oil will come in and the series will be doomed. F1000 here we come.

Please, lets just enjoy racing and try to win by skill and organization. Leave the engines alone thay work just fine.


Charles bored with the subject Finelli

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NPalacioM3

Dan, please forgive some of this since I am relatively new here (again) but allow me to share my thoughts on the above. The problem that I believe many people including myself have with this is that it creates yet another variable in the already mixed up equation of engine options. From what I understand, parity has not been completely reached yet between the ztec and iron head pinto, yet we threw in an aluminum head that has yet to be fully compared to what we already have. Then only a few short months later, a new Elan intake manifold is introduced for the ztec?? How is that going to make things any better for us club racers who are on a budget? Will this mean that I will now need to go and buy the Elan intake if I have a ztec or the aluminum head for a pinto because over the first few races of next season we find that they do indeed produce more power/torque/throttle response? How much more? What are we going to do to ensure parity between the 2...I mean 3...oops, 4. We just do not know.....we do not even know what impact the aluminum head is going to have yet, why throw yet another variable into the already mixed up situation?

To make matters worse, it seems that this is being pushed along very quickly and shoved down the members throats. Why would the SCCA feel the need to have someone come on here, make a post and expect responses/comments within a two week period? From what I understand, there is a pretty standard process for getting new rules passed and this seemed to have bypassed those completely? Why did that happen? How did that happen? How was Elan able to do this so easily yet we still cannot get simple modifications allowed to our current iron head pinto to increase logevity? I have been out of SCCA for about 5 years and have come back to this? It all seems very fishy and I really hope that the CRB/BoD does the right thing here and puts a stop to it.

---

Thanks for the very reasoned and civilized reply. I understand your position and though I don't believe there is much difference in these components, I see why the added option can make it more challenging for some racers. As to the SCCA process, I don't know much about it at all, and my opinion as to why it is seemingly being pushed would be just that, an opinion. It's likely that there is a reason somehow related to the facts leading up to the need to produce these alternative parts, but I don't see anything that should make anyone suspicious of motives. It's just people at SCCA doing their jobs in the way they think, given the information that they have, is correct. I have served on boards and it is never easy to completely inform the membership as to all that goes into any one decision. However this comes out, I would prefer to assume good intentions on the part of the SCCA board members.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zebra

There is NO engine building involved. The engine should be bone stock from a crate with the addition of manifold and dry sump. If anyone is doing otherwise they are trying to get a HP advantage rather than a skill advantage. I bet dollars for donuts that IS ALL SANDY DOES at QSR and he should be allowed to make a profit on his labors.
DAN,
NOW THERE IS AN ISSUE as to whether Sandy at Quick Silver is GOUGING WITH HIS MANOPOLY. Dan, you would be better serving your fellow racers, that is what you ARE trying to do isn't it;) , by telling us the price of a manifold and arguing that Sandy is gouguing us by about $4,000.00 alone on the intake manifold if not more. $15,000.00 - $600.00 for Zetec Crate engine = $14,400.00 missing some where.

As for Elan they do not need to be in the engine business unless they think they can cheat and drive up the cost of racing and create all kinds of nonsense. Go build your overpriced chassis with those parts that need a hammer, chisel and file to make fit, can't wait for their engine to arrive.

Elan should try and say that they could provide the SAME engine for a lot less and guarantee a certain Horse Power for the series. THE SERIES should state that not only should the engine be sealed but can produce no more than X horse power. The top 3 at the end of the series will be Dynoed and if over a certain horspower the engine builder will have to pay a hefty fine to the car/driver which will be disqualified AND the driver will have legal recourse against the Prep shop/Team that provided the car. maybe an Escrow account that would benefit the driver if his car is disqulaified because of cheating by his overpriced team.

A bone stock crate engine sells for $600.00. But of course everyone will try to argue that there are not enough Zetec engines available in crate form and that they will eventually have to be rebuilt and that is where all the phony engine builder snake oil will come in and the series will be doomed. F1000 here we come.

Please, lets just enjoy racing and try to win by skill and organization. Leave the engines alone thay work just fine.


Charles bored with the subject Finelli

---

Hi Charles,
I can't disagree with you about the cost of these engines, but I will say, based on what I have learned in racing, that I doubt that Sandy is getting rich on his engine business. I wish there were a way to get the cost of new engines down a lot, because, like you, I have to pay for them. I honestly don't know what Elan charges for engines or for the components, as I haven't bought anything yet (still waiting to see if they get approved).
I agree, let's get on with racing, enjoy it and work on our skills and organization. See you at the races.
Dan

Dan;

I for one appreciate your response.

I have been in this class since its inception and in Canada before that. Through out the intervening peroid all competitors have started with the same box of parts to build the engines for this class. The engine preparations rules have always been the same for every one in the class. If I was getting beat in the power department I could get to work and improve my package. Not now. Bad enough that I hae 2 boxes of parts to build an engine but now we are up to 3 boxes and for 2 of the engine packages there is no way for a competitor to know if some one is cheating. If we all ran QSRE Zetec setups, I could put my engine up as the standard and protest an other engine. If both were the same them I lost the protest. If they were different then we only had to find out who changed something.

Now comes Elan and you asking that Club have different preparation rules for different engine builders. That to me is a major rules change and should be argued on its own merrit. If we go that route then why not simplify the rules and only require that we all breathe through the same size restrictor plate and only use the Ford injectors. We can further say we all use the same map.

Why should Elan get preferential treatment over Elite, Loynings, Butler, Williams, or Farley? Fair is for every body to be involved.

The dispute between Elan and QSRE predates this this issue. QSRE is simply dealing with Elan as they have delt with QSRE. Isn't there a saying that when elephants fight the grass gets torn up? Well, I and my customers feel like grass. Maybe even grass that has been defficated upon.

I would have some sympathy if Elan had just duplicated the QSRE manifold and offered all the other external changes to the engine as their answer to the QSRE setup. But, no, they are advertising their product as having superior performance. So the claims of equal performance has never been the intention.

You are one tough competitor and the preparation by your team is first class. I absolutely can not fault you for making a deal with Elan for engines. You don't mind if I remain skeptical about all Elan engines being equal and that I would get equal service from Elan. But I will accept your judgement and Elan's word that their engines are the best and my customers better start modifying their cars for the Elan installation and get ready to shell out $13,000 plus more money for what is not supplied and is different than QSRE setups.

Dan-

looks like the e-mail address in your profile might not be working; my note came bouncing back.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

I think what Dan is saying but not so artfully is that he thinks that Elan can save all us racers LOTS of money by creating the same engine for a lot less and thereby exposing the Gouging by Sandy and QSR.

Thanks Dan

Let us know how much we can save and we will applaud your effort

Charles looking for the savings Finelli