Awesome, Bud! I love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjahn
And we made it to VIR over 19 days for an average speed of 5.9 mph. :-)
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Awesome, Bud! I love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjahn
And we made it to VIR over 19 days for an average speed of 5.9 mph. :-)
At least it's a KENT on the pole....
I wondered when someone would mention that... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by bob darcey
At the Runoffs, FF is definitely not as healthy as years past, but it still offers ups great racing at the front...and the FORD wins!
Sour grapes comment from Johathan Kotyk when asked if his second place finish ended in frustration for him: "It's ok; we won first in class. I can't compete against a half-million dollar race car that his uncle has, thats got 10 horsepower on the field."
I hope the medical staff was able to get him in the whaambulance before his tears started to make pit lane slippery. :p
I was really surprised when Kotyk said that. But I think that if a Kent had 10 more HP than the Honda, it could have kept ME in front of those guys and I would have assumed someone driving well enough to already have a Gold medal in their trailer would have simply driven away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Jeffords
I didn’t see the interview but *can* understand his frustration.
But that’s also something you *cannot ever* say on camera!
Reid's hot take....
Congrats to Nolan and the Allear/Copper family. Classy folks, and happy for them that they get to share that family experience.
What the race lacked in numbers made up for in quality. Clean, hard race at the front. One of the better races of the weekend.
How cool is it to see Tim's son Calvin running in Tim's car? That must be a blast for Tim.
Lap traffic plays a role yet again. Hard to imagine Kotyk gets beat to the line if he didn't get held up mid-corner and got the normal run he usually did. That's not new in FF, and seems to be the norm to have lap traffic change the outcome. Which, is that really changing the outcome if lappers are expected? (Deep thoughts from the couch...)
A Kent is on par with Honda's if it's the most tricked out Kent on the planet in the most tricked out car on the planet if the Honda gets held up mid corner in the last few corners. With Nolan driving and the absolutely bananas aero package it has, that car will be unbeatable at Road America where the Kent has the top end advantage on the Honda .
Kotyk's brake check on Gross on the cool down lap in T1 was uh, well, lame. At least it looked like a brake check on TV.
Hottest take - wild for someone who runs with a real deal IndyCar team and has done so for several years complain about being outspent. When you out dollar everyone for years and then complain when someone out dollars you.....really? And 10hp and HALF A MILLION....lets not get carried away here. :rolleyes:
That was a hell of a race all the way up to the tantrum.
It's that kind of attitude that keeps you racing out of your own pocket and not someone else's.
Can someone provide a rough breakdown on how you'd spend 1/2 million or whatever it is on a FF car? Thanks
Ask Keith Nunes....
All kidding aside, If you add testing, areo and engine development, travel, team expenses, tires, tires, and more tires, having the most experienced team who meticulously manages your car," lifes" all the parts, it can be expensive. $500,000 expensive, I don't know. I do know that their cars are beyond reproach when it comes to every last detail...Just an FYI, I recently received a quote to have a Formula Ford wrapped and it was northward of $3500 (installed)...so...it all adds up.
I actually wasn't kidding--can you spend more than, say, $20-30K on an engine, half that? on a blueprinted gearbox, same for custom bodywork, hard for me (who doesn't know much) to see how you could get much more than say $100K over cost of $40-80K chassis. Would love to know what I'm missing. This is car only, no team, coaching etc costs.
Actually one can't spend $500K on a single FF. You can easily spend over $100K if you include professional preparation. Build an identical spare car and you're over $200K.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonroe24
FWIW, I've seen guys spend close to $100K on a from scratch Spec Miata build:eek:
However it is easy to spend $500K to go to the runoffs in FF as well as in a lot of classes too.
Steve
I thought it was a great race. Personally I don't pay too much attention to attitudes after the race. That Kent and aero package had legs. It was the clear favorite for the entire race. Certainly Nolan was there to make it happen. This of course is the nature of the Runoffs. Kotyk arguably was the better driver in the lesser car, but none of that matters. Better drivers lose all the time.
Nolan is going to slay RA next year if he decides to run. I doubt anybody has the time to build a package to compete in the next year.
Formula F race on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FZqt65MeS8
FF race starts around 4:17:00
Did anyone look over the Porter Aiken FF car that was for sale here a few weeks back? The price they are asking for the car is a lot less than what they spent developing it. I watched the multi-year development of that Piper with expenses like the frame going back and forth to California, bodywork, engines, electronics, wiring harnesses, spares, yadda, yadda, yadda... and the Aiken's never played in a wind tunnel with that car. That was a family run operation with no one at the shop getting paid, and yet the cost of that program was staggering to me.
Polestar and LTD don't work for minimum wage either. It's safe to say Nolan's car was "well developed". Maybe not $500K, but up there.
The extensive development/engineering in FC and FF in the last 15 years might account for so many folks moving to spec classes. But then if you glance at the results in SM, FE, and SR3, the podiums were made up of cars coming out of high end prep shops (e.g. Comprent, OPM, etc.), not lowly independents.
Racing at the front is not for those faint of wallet.
Bottom line here is that it was the Runoffs.
You bring your A game to the Runoffs.
Allaer brought his A game, drove the wheels off of the car and won the race clean.
He also did the same thing in FC
Congratulations to him on two jobs well done !
It seems there were three well developed cars in a nose-to-tail train for most of the race, and the fastest lap of the race went to a car further back in the field, at least near the halfway point. Add to that a winning margin that was so small no one knew who was going to cross the line first until it happened, and there can be only one conclusion; a half a million dollars just doesn't buy what it used to.
[Well, I guess there could be another conclusion, now that I think about it,,,]
Any word on this? The announcers said something to the effect that he didn't take the green but got out there for a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
How fun was that to watch? That was a much better spectacle than I have seen in just about any professional or televised racing in years !!!
Anyone that sets around crying about engine parity between Kent and Honda can simply 'go pound sand !' There may be other classes where there is an argument, but the comparison between Kent and Honda is as good as anyone can expect from engine technologies that are how many years apart ?
As has been said many times on Apex.... it isn't how much money you throw at a project, it is your WHOLE program that puts you at the front. It takes engine builders, shock technicians, someone to set the car up, someone to transport, etc, etc. Last but not least it takes someone to qualify the car, take it across the start and get it across the finish line.
BRAVO !!! And congrats to everyone in the Formula Ford race...
Well we just pulled in the driveway about an hour ago from the Run Offs and I am catching up on stuff and made the mistake of jumping on apex........sucked me right in as usual LOL. I can add my thoughts on what to me was a great event. Yes it is a big investment of time and funds to do the event. I first attended the Run Offs in 89 at Road Atlanta to watch and then went back every year for the races to watch as I found it just too good to stay away from. When they announced that 93 would be the final year at RA, I planned my race season all around the NE division events as I had to run at this event before it left. I scraped my way in with an effort that saw me go to all but one race on my own and with a package that was decent but certainly not well funded. I did the Run Offs with a plan to just be part of the show and drive my stuff to the limit of what I had. I did that and came away wanting more. I did several RO's at Mid Ohio and although there was never a budget to test and throw tires and have the latest motors, I did enjoy the experience. This year was the first Run Offs I have gone to since it was at MO. We ran William Ferguson in our Piper DL7 Honda. He is a real talent and ran the Canadian F1600 Championship with us last year and around March we hatched a plan to get him qualified and tackle the Run Offs, this time with a package we believed capable of winning. We did 3 majors events, no test days, one set of tires for all 3 weekends (thank you Hoosier for building an incredible tire!) and just William and myself at the track.
We put our resources into the event itself, we ran all 3 test days, budgeted for tires and had a great car. This was something we really looked forward to. The light entry was disappointing, we really wanted to run against the best cars, drivers and teams. However, with Polestar and Team Pelfrey and some very quick privateers, we still faced a challenge. It was very close in qualifying and on our own we felt we were the second fastest car but a long way from the rocket that Polestar and his group had built. In the final qualifying we finally ran in some drafting laps and yet we were still off of while Nolan ran on his own with no draft help. Let me make it clear, I have no issue with that car, it is absolutely gorgeous and obviously extremely well developed. If I had a single car team with an experienced driver I too would run a Ford motor as I think ultimately they are quicker. With our team and running young drivers who sometimes are learning to driver a standard in our cars and lets just say with very little mechanical sympathy for motors and gearboxes the Honda is the best choice. I have benefited from over a decade of Honda reliability and am thankful for that.
Now the race, we really did not know what to expect and knew we would find out quickly if we could even stay with Nolan, it was a relief to see that both Jonathan and William could stay with him and they both led laps and it was a great show. The issue was that it did not matter what you did, if you were leading onto the front straight, Nolan would drive by just before the flag stand. The only way you were going to be safe was to have him in third coming to the flag and then maybe he would run out of space. In the end William tried something that didn't pan out as he knew that he could not go from third to the lead on the backstraight but it was possible from second. I am very happy we made the trip, the week was long but also fun as we took in the Great Tennis Ball Races (a whole story in itself) and met plenty of new folks.
Congrats to Nolan and Jim's group of guys, Jonathan while not happy is a great guy and a hell of a driver. Watch out for Zack and Calvin next year, they will be right there. Hope to be there with more than one car, I am choosing to believe that this year was a blip on the participation side of things and Road America will have a great field of Formula F's.
Brian.
Fun fact!
In 2022, Jonathon and Nolan had equal cars from the same team. When the race went full course caution after 12 laps, Jonathan was 36 seconds ahead of Nolan.
Cubic dollars has always been a factor in racing. It is much easier to celebrate those results when you are in the peanut gallery rather than the paddock.
Didn't Nolan go off in Hog Pen last year early on & work his way back up to third on a damp/wet track?Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Checking Race Monitor I believe Nolan had the 4th fastest lap, 2 tenths behind Jonathan who had the fastest. Draft helps create better lap times.
Brian, it was a thrill to see your livery in the race, especially when it briefly went to P1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Graham
Hear, hear! (OK... ...Read, read!).Quote:
Originally Posted by TimH
I can completely understand Ferguson's decision. He knew that being in 3rd wasn't going to cut it, so he tried something that was a step too far. And I respect that when he realized it wasn't going to work, he put the car into the grass rather than just barrel into the lead two.
FF has been going strong since its inception. I have heard that is was "dead" so many times, but it keeps coming back because its the best bang for your buck. For the track time the Runoffs doesn't compete with the pro series, which is one of the reasons the car count was down this year, but not the only one. I can do an FRP race for $2500 or so, this race cost me a lot more than that, almost double, and I didn't do a lot of laps all week.
I didn't deserve a podium this year but I'll take it. I deserved better in past years and it didn't play out so it all comes out in the wash. The 3 at the front were fast, I couldn't keep up, draft or no draft, and they all did a great job this week. Calvin and Zachary gave me all I could handle, they are going to be fast next year.
I'm proud of my effort this season, even though I didn't win it (again). Its a difficult event to run, and I had to miss the Tuesday session for my day job, And it rained Wednesday, so that all put me on my back foot. I could have qualified better though, just made a mistake in the Thursday qual session that was all on me. Those guys aren't unbeatable; I've beaten them both. Just wasn't my year.
Thank you to Greg Rice and Carlos Rodrigues for coming and helping me on Sunday. I'm usually all by my lonesome so having some support was a nice change!!
I can tell you right now the car count next season will at least be 1, because I'll be back. Its a stupid, expensive, frustrating, event, but its the runoffs, and I'm not stopping until I win the thing. So hopefully 2024!
There is no "deserve" in racing.
Great drive, Greg and Carlos are awesome, and congrats on a great finish!
I'm not sure that this has been mentioned and if it has, I apologize. In speaking with someone at the Runoffs, they were pretty sure that the car that won, is Lewis Cooper's car. That car started out as a 1997 Van Diemen RF97K. As an aside, the reason I say this is, we have a RF97K and found out that a "new aero" set of bodywork was being developed. Because it is a 97K, RF98 bodywork doesn't fit the car. We inquired and found out who built it. We then asked who we could speak with regarding purchasing a set and were told by the manufacture that the client was not interested in selling any bodywork and it would not be for sale.
My point to this whole post is that with enough work, time, testing and development you can make a 25 year old car competitive (see previous comment regarding Keith Nunes and his DB6 program)
Just my .02 cents...
Not true. As you told the interviewer, there was a pretty fair chance not all of those front three would finish. There's a place for fast driving and a place for smart driving. ..and you weren't exactly slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by car7316
There are only so many tracks. With the us swelling of ChumpCar, NASA, marque clubs and all the various 'driving academies' plus track days. Who needs SCCA racing to get on track? With that many organizations seeking 'prime' dates, the bidding for those dates just goes up and up.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Pare
Success will kill participation that are financially challenged - with the Graying of SCCA, financial challenges become what is known as a fixed Retirement Income.
I have the questions, I don't have the answers.
Check out Gridlife, drifters, and Lemons. The folks who are financially challenged are still out there, just in different spots. And certainly, the number of options to get on track is huge today compared to what it used to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmi16
Well I thought (probably against my better judgement) I would throw my 2 cents into the fray, being the aforementioned “Uncle”.
First, thanks for all the compliments on the car. Obviously it is very well developed, Jim, Constantine and the entire Polestar team do awesome work. But to keep up with the current cars and their development, it needs to be developed, it is a 23 year old car after all. The aero work on a certain chrome piper or the citation were tough to keep up with, “back in the day”. Heck even the Mygale driven by the guy in P2 this year has different bodywork than the car Nolan ran last year. I also believe the engine in that car doesn’t belong to the “team”.
I would hope Nolan’s commitment to being a better driver shows vs. last year. He has been very focused and committed to improving his craft.
As for costs, I know we have spent a bunch over the last 15 years developing the car. I’ll go on record however, no where close to the number mentioned, but the estimates earlier are representative for sure on components we have upgraded. Biggest miss is that we bought the “used car” with engine, for only $25k.
However, now that a perceived value has been established, all offers over $400,000 will be seriously considered and as a reminder that is a 20% discount. After all, something is only truly worth what others think. LOL.
Car development is a huge part of the fun of the sport, at least I know I enjoy it and that is the point of a hobby, last time I checked. I doubt few people running upfront haven’t done similar developments over the course of more than a decade, in most classes of SCCA amateur racing.
Some years you can get away with small changes, others years require more to keep up. I know the engine builder is the same for the P1 and P2 car this year, so should be similar representation of his craft with just different building blocks.
3 chassis, 2 engine brands, 2 engine builders, they each had spots where they were better than the other, they put on one hell of a show. Maybe racing like that will bring a few more people into the class. Check out the trap speeds and segment times online. No single car dominates.
If you want to have all the cars the same, run a spec class. But, as someone mentioned earlier, even those classes benefit from “the dreaded development”.
Being from Detroit and a huge Ford fan for years, it was nice to help put the “Ford” back in Formula Ford.
Let me preface my last comment, in that I do believe the addition of the Fit engine has been very beneficial to the class, overall.
But let us not forget all the uproar 15 years ago about adding the Fit into the class. I guess those concerns were not warranted? In the end it only took more than a decade and multiple different teams efforts to finally prove SCCA correct. As they continually promised throughout the process, there was “no need to worry about the value of your Ford motor and car, the Honda will always be at a disadvantage”.
SCCA Formula F is not dead, it might be struggling this year for participation numbers but SCCA sanctioned FRP F1600 is not struggling for numbers at all !
* 2023 saw the largest entry for an FRP F1600 race, ever.
* New cars are being bought and garage queens are coming out to race again. A few new Rays have been purchased, Mike Scanlan continues to sell new Spectrum's, and a few more Pipers that weren't previously in FRP are showing up next year.
* A young lad from Australia came over and raced with us a little this year and they plan on sending a few more next season. We haven't seen them send drivers over for F1600 in a decade.
* The Pro teams don't dominate the fields anymore, there are lots of Grassroots F1600 guys that are competing for the win and make up a majority of the fields. The 2023 F1600 Champion was a father/son team with an old Dodge truck, a tag-along trailer, and a tight budget.
* Again, new fast kids are coming straight out of karting and will race with us next season, the tradition continues.
I feel we could see 30+ car fields again in FRP F1600 in 2024 !
Racers will come out and run if there are big fields, great tracks, and stiff competition. FRP has that covered.
Formula F is far from dead !
True, but at the expense (competition for track days) of organized racing. My experience going to some track-day events is that they advertise as 'non-competitive' yet there are some groups of 'drivers' that are racing unofficially.Quote:
Originally Posted by romoman
Some TDOs offer transponder rentals as well but contradictorily indicate that your own insurance covers your car.
The TDOs insurance is basically for 'not racing' street cars - that is why most TDOs do not allow open wheel cars.
There is a lot of safety missed with this type of track time. In some cases it street racing without the cops.
You can't retroactively preface something.Quote:
Originally Posted by lc3
TAKE THAT!
Also, great race and congrats!
I watched the race broadcast and what I really noticed was the race craft Nolan has acquired. Spending that time in the UK, running strange cars and tires, at circuits he had never seen, (to me) paid dividends when driving a car and at a track that was more familiar to him.
Well done.
And, Thank you "Uncle" for letting him borrow your car.
I think you're missing the point about date competition. Many, if not most, facilities running their own track days will tell you they make more money on their own programs than renting to any outside organization. Your safety concerns only apply to you. As a 57 year SCCA member I probably agree with most of them, but those participating in track day events don't agree with us. Marching out the differences isn't going change anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
I'll disagree with your first point. ButtonWillow ran a Saturday HPDE 2 to 3 times a year for the last 25 years. Last December was the last one because with demand for the track and what the TDOs are willing to pay they could no longer justify running their own events - and this knowing the second track was coming online within a year. Every weekend in 2023 was booked and people were on a wait list. Both tracks are expected to be fully booked net year. I believe the only 'event' the track runs is the test days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
As an example of the demand, CalClub released their schedule for 2024 last month - about the earliest I've ever seen.
I agree. Safety concerns are my own. But I hate others not knowing the risk they are taking when others are racing on track (when they are not supposed to) and they are out there challenging themselves on the track.
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by lc3
That $ would go a LONG way toward developing a Piper or something else new.
Turns out I wasnt too far off with 50 seconds back! I havent made it through the broadcast yet, it was too agonizing watching myself disappear out of frame in the opening laps :ha:
I will only share one story of a fun week at the track. I was paddocked along pit lane and tried to make a habit of giving a post race wave to drivers as they came in off the cool down lap. Following the amazing F600 race I was sitting on the pit wall and looked down and saw Nolan, fire suit half on, doing the same as Calvin and Jason rolled in. Great showing of sportsmanship 30 minutes prior to being strapped in the car for his own race.
Those worried about the health of the class have a year to get the car ready for RA in 2024. Im looking forward to having more cars in the "midfield" to race against!
Matt Boian
You looked down on power, but otherwise very solid to us. :thumbsup:
Ha well the week was full of violent swings between "I need to drive better" and "the engine is coming out as soon as I get home"Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
So I nailed a week’s worth of race reports in just eleven words?
That’s for me, A. New. Track. Record. ;-)
My take is FF is all good - the numbers were down by four that I know of - one with a last minute invite to Spain karting, one in UK racing, one developing a new car and not happy with results, and one (me) still recovering and rebuilding from the sprints. Many other classes were down for many of the reasons already spoken in this thread but our class is still the place to be.
I love that:
Nolan/LC3/et al showed up with an impressive drive and bullet - no surprise at his speed
Jonathan was emotional about not winning - that's a competitor for you
William drove way beyond his years and added a new face to the mix
Old cars and new cars of various makes were competitive
Parity between a good FF and a good Honda are once again proven
The battle between the top three was intense - some of the best racing I saw in all of the Runoffs
We need more Matts! - the big dogs are what motivate the little dogs
My thoughts - the drivers at the front are not in the business of "tricking" or rarely even surprising the other front runners - we see this a lot at the front of the FRP field. The top drivers all know the "tricks" and the good ones have already considered the options. The key is to qualify well, have excellent pace in the race, don't run over anyone, don't get run over and be in a position to win the race at the flag. Rarely does a Hail Mary move work in FF yet we seem to glorify those moves and forget the good, clean and FAST drives. Nolan had a good, clean and very fast drive!
Agree with all of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger Racing
One of the things that struck me was that while Nolan obviously had a supremely well-developed package, the driver was every bit as important. In particular, he seemed to be able to brake deeper than anyone else—never locked a corner!
Overshot a bit more than once, but still didn't lock up. Superb control.Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
May be the result of using brake pads with better modulation/release characteristics than the other cars around him. I rarely lock up with my Carbotech XP20 pads. That was not the case with some other manufacturers' pads.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimH
Noted. Either driver or setup skill. Or both. Still superb control.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Fast kids romp on the brakes super hard upon first application and then ease up as the car slows. Us old folks used to street driving tend to slowly ease on the brakes getting progressively harder.
And with some race tires, this is the preferred method of braking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
;)