Flagtronic in car warning light system

I wasn't one. But as I read the arguments for/against an in-car system, it seems to sense that the probability of an erroneous reading/component failure that results in a catastrophic incident is far higher with multiple distributed (in-car) systems vs a single track-owned/managed system? I *think* my logic is directionally correct, but can't conjure up the math....

I'm thinking it would be a lot easier to bullet-proof 10 lights at a track (in terms of operational capability, routine maintenance, etc) than to police/enforce that over the 300 competitors at a given weekend. And the next weekend at that same track, it isn't the same 300 competitors, so there is even less integrity to previous preventative efforts as a season goes on.

And what do we do with the driver who states that his dash didn't alert him to the yellow flag (whether it did or didn't)? Do we audit his in-car system to prove it alerted him and he was at fault? All this seems terrifically complicated to me....

cheers,
bt

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Originally Posted by billtebbutt

I wasn't one. But as I read the arguments for/against an in-car system, it seems to sense that the probability of an erroneous reading/component failure that results in a catastrophic incident is far higher with multiple distributed (in-car) systems vs a single track-owned/managed system? I *think* my logic is directionally correct, but can't conjure up the math....

I'm thinking it would be a lot easier to bullet-proof 10 lights at a track (in terms of operational capability, routine maintenance, etc) than to police/enforce that over the 300 competitors at a given weekend. And the next weekend at that same track, it isn't the same 300 competitors, so there is even less integrity to previous preventative efforts as a season goes on.

And what do we do with the driver who states that his dash didn't alert him to the yellow flag (whether it did or didn't)? Do we audit his in-car system to prove it alerted him and he was at fault? All this seems terrifically complicated to me....

cheers,
bt

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There are really 2 issues being discussed here.

1. Trackside lights in place of corner worker flags. That's your 10 or so lights you are referring to. This is being discussed because of staffing issues.

2. In car indicators. Some people would like in car indicators (flag or otherwise). This IS NOT a substitute for flagging or trackside lights. So you premise of 'fixing' 300, while correct is misplaced. If the driver wants in car indicators that is their problem.

So, the question is really what products since each track would have to make an investment in the tech. Their choice then affects the drivers and what they install in their car.


As for issue 1 - flaggers.

I think a light system can help them and possibly reduce necessary staffing.
BUT, the 'flag' should be able to be indicated by the station AND race control in a primary and backup situation.

As for in car indicators.

The delivery of the data needs to be seamless and not create another job in race control. If this is going to make managing the race difficult or more work we need to nix the idea.

As mentioned earlier Champcar mandates the use of the Flagtronics system.

Champcar has a 14 hour race at Daytona tomorrow, Saturday April 1. Green flag is 9am EDT.

If one is interested, one can log onto the Champcar website listed below.

Flagtronics Marching Ants - Watch local flagging conditions
from your paddock using your phone or computer
http:/champcar.live

I'll be working as a flag marshal for this event.

Attachment 106766

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to answer some of the hanging questions here.

• Everyone in the Flagtronics core engineering team races. We race NASA, SCCA, ChampCar, LeMons, & more. We work on our own cars and we're engineers. We started this project to make racing safer for ourselves and that turned into a larger project over time.
• Flagtronics CAN Bus integration works with ECUMaster, AiM, MoTeC, Autosports Labs, & much more. We are making presets and trying to make it easier for racers to integrate. We expect to have drop-down options in most popular logging, dash, telemetry, & video systems.
• The Flagtronics standalone display is very small and has been installed in open wheel cars of several types. We will also offer even smaller options in the future.
• The driver's perspective is important. We also see a high level of detail in race control that makes calls faster, safer, and better for everyone on track. We show race control where safety vehicles are and where incidents are. The end result is a safer track and more green flag racing.
• NO SUBSCRIPTION! Flagtronics is the only system in the US and, as far as I'm aware, in the world that comes without a subscription. Again here, we're also racers and we know how people feel about this. We have some really old transponders we share among friends for the same reasons you do.
• We've seen very good compliance under code 35 and similar enforced conditions. We offer this tool to race control and they can choose to do with it. We used to see racers treating code 35 as a yellow flag condition and traveling at 80+mph before we offered compliance tools. Now we see cars traveling near 35mph. The response from safety workers, EMS, and anyone who contributes to pulls has been EXTREMELY positive. Some tracks will offer hot pulls under ENFORCED code 35 that have not done so in recent history. Safety crews feel safer, work faster, and give racers more green flag time.
• The Flagtronics FT200 costs less than a single tire for most racers these days.
• The Flagtronics system offers full track flags, local flags, and individual flags such as courtesy pit, meatball, & black flag. It also offers bidirectional communication to show car position and when a car had an accident or similar. The driver is prompted to press a button indicating they are ok. This allows us to prioritize drivers that are most at risk in a multi-car incident and know if the driver is responsive even when a corner worker can't see the driver.
• The Flagtronics system does offer backup timing & scoring data that is currently used if a transponder fails or similar issues arise during a race.
• Sometimes track radio systems fail and having 2 systems eliminates a single point of failure.
• Flagtronics does and has covered complex tracks like Road America, Ozarks, & COTA with no loss of signal to the driver. It works at these tracks and we offer orgs guidelines on setup.
• The Flagtronics system is unique in offering a graphics capable display with CAN output capability & track-side signboards all in a cohesive, centrally administrated system that a track or org can use easily. We often get feedback on how easy it is to user our inexpensive system as compared to very high dollar systems in top tier racing series.
• Corner marhals are often frustrated that racers don't see them frantically waving a flag in a corner trying to protect them from an incident ahead. We explain to those marhals that this is another tool to get their information directly in front of the driver and/or at a brightly lit signboard in the driver's view.

https://www.scca.com/articles/201745...rm=READ%20MORE

Looks like they are looking at a $250 unit with an option of renting for $50 at the 2023 Runoffs. Not mandatory......yet........

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Originally Posted by vtjballeng

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to answer some of the hanging questions here.

• Flagtronics CAN Bus integration works with ECUMaster, AiM, MoTeC, Autosports Labs, & much more. We are making presets and trying to make it easier for racers to integrate. We expect to have drop-down options in most popular logging, dash, telemetry, & video systems.
• The Flagtronics standalone display is very small and has been installed in open wheel cars of several types. We will also offer even smaller options in the future.

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What the formula car community really needs is a module from flagtronics which can be treated as a can expansion device on an AIM system which uses the native GPS antenna and displays warnings on the AIM dash. I have no problem with using the FT200 system but if I have to have separation between the GPS antennas there is not really a way I can do that with direct line of sight for the flagtronics antenna

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Originally Posted by Mark_Silverberg

What the formula car community really needs is a module from flagtronics which can be treated as a can expansion device on an AIM system which uses the native GPS antenna and displays warnings on the AIM dash. I have no problem with using the FT200 system but if I have to have separation between the GPS antennas there is not really a way I can do that with direct line of sight for the flagtronics antenna

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The FT200 has a CAN output, but no input functions. I spearheaded the integration with AiM and can provide the CAN protocol if you want to integrate the FT200 into an AiM product. You can also put the flag status on SmartyCam 3 footage.

Putting the AiM GPS and FT200 GPS next to each should not be a problem. I've seen it that way in probably 2 dozen cars without problem.

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Originally Posted by romoman

The FT200 has a CAN output, but no input functions. I spearheaded the integration with AiM and can provide the CAN protocol if you want to integrate the FT200 into an AiM product. You can also put the flag status on SmartyCam 3 footage.

Putting the AiM GPS and FT200 GPS next to each should not be a problem. I've seen it that way in probably 2 dozen cars without problem.

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Whats the oldest AIM that will work with it?
EVO3?
EVO4?
MXL/PISTA/PRO

So is this a stand alone system or an add on to some other expensive electronic gizmo? Other than the transponder and a radio and a electric O2 I have no other electronic stuff in my car. I really don't need the O2 thing since it isn't working after an issue and looking at the exhaust is good enough for me. I also have an LED clearance light that is on when low oil pressure but a warning since I like to look at where I am going and not distractions from gauges.

Ed

They seem to be doing everything to drive old racers away and it is slowly working.

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Originally Posted by romoman

The FT200 has a CAN output, but no input functions. I spearheaded the integration with AiM and can provide the CAN protocol if you want to integrate the FT200 into an AiM product. You can also put the flag status on SmartyCam 3 footage.

Putting the AiM GPS and FT200 GPS next to each should not be a problem. I've seen it that way in probably 2 dozen cars without problem.

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I am assuming that the FT200 must come into the AIM unit through the ECU port and if I am already running your TPMS system I would not be able to add the FT200

I find it amusing that we are installing some lights on the dash (at our cost) for people who cannot react to waving yellow flags that are in our direct line of vision. How often does the average driver look at his dash?

If this is made mandatory, someone is going to make a $hitload of money from it.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

If this is made mandatory, someone is going to make a $hitload of money from it.

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On top of a $200 rain light. That said, I think this $260 Flagtronic system would be money better spent than a $200 rain light because it would be useful all the time in every session. The Flagtronic guys also have way more hardware, software engineering, and wiring involved in their system than a simple taillight.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

...people who cannot react to waving yellow flags that are in our direct line of vision...

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Could this be looking into the future..... when there is no one to wave the yellow flag?

Brian

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Whats the oldest AIM that will work with it?
EVO3?
EVO4?
MXL/PISTA/PRO

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Probably not, but with some work you might be able to. Those systems won't take a custom CAN protocol.

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Originally Posted by Mark_Silverberg

I am assuming that the FT200 must come into the AIM unit through the ECU port and if I am already running your TPMS system I would not be able to add the FT200

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No problem putting them together. I can make a protocol and help you out if you want to put them on the same CANbus.

Some people think racers are made of money NOT TRUE

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

Could this be looking into the future..... when there is no one to wave the yellow flag?

Brian

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I absolutely think we will end up there - Or at least significantly fewer manned stations.

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Originally Posted by Steve Demeter

Some people think racers are made of money NOT TRUE

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My racing participation and results are affected by available time and money.
I know I don't have as much time or money for racing as others do and my results reflect that.
New mandatory expenses are setbacks. Money to buy - time to install.

In this case I have very little room for an additional display device - unless I hide it behind my hands - which is pointless.
This means an upgrade to the data system, which means less racing for a while.

So this $260 system is really a $3260 + cost.
I know I'll benefit from the new data system but that is an expense I choose to put off.

I doubt I'm the only one thinking the same thing.

I have an old CDS system that I use only as an ECU interface to display RPM, oil pressure, water temperature, etc. I have never used a data system for actual data. My data system is my brain and the feel through my hands, body. etc.

I'll have to find a mounting location for a Flagtronics unit when/if they're required, but it won't be easy.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

I absolutely think we will end up there - Or at least significantly fewer manned stations.



My racing participation and results are affected by available time and money.
I know I don't have as much time or money for racing as others do and my results reflect that.
New mandatory expenses are setbacks. Money to buy - time to install.

In this case I have very little room for an additional display device - unless I hide it behind my hands - which is pointless.
This means an upgrade to the data system, which means less racing for a while.

So this $260 system is really a $3260 + cost.
I know I'll benefit from the new data system but that is an expense I choose to put off.

I doubt I'm the only one thinking the same thing.

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You don't have to upgrade your data system to use the Flagtronics. It's a standalone system that can be integrated with a dash if you want, but it does not have to.

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Originally Posted by romoman

You don't have to upgrade your data system to use the Flagtronics. It's a standalone system that can be integrated with a dash if you want, but it does not have to.

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I understand that, but as I said I have NO place to mount it where I can see it.
I can see the MXL through the cutout in the wheel - no other part of the dash area is visible.

I guess I could plopped on the shock cover - which is unacceptable to me - and in my line of site.

And from the looks of it it is not designed to be in the airflow - I'd have exposed wiring and have to run that through the shock cover, etc. Or I'd have to make some sort of fairing obstructing my view. No - messy.

This is when people say "I'll skip that race."

Don't get me wrong. I don't object to better communications or safety. But the requirements will change participation behavior. (See thread on FC participation)

It would be easier if AIM just acquired one of these companies and integrated the function.

We very much need an extremely compact standalone display unit for this tech for super-tight cockpits... I don't know where I'll fit it, but if you can produce a colored display around 1"x2" I'll make some room. Might have to have a steering wheel mount option, TBH - and integrating with my dash is doubtful to be workable, as I'm using a Race Technology DL1 and Dash4, which is all LCD (no color)...

I think it's clear to see that this is the writing on the wall, and this absolutely will become mandatory at some point soon; this is just SCCA being unusually nice about easing it in vs. the usual rule update mandating it outright as of Jan 1. No doubt they've been forced into this with the incidents at the Sprints - I honestly give them credit for being more "gentle" with this rollout than usual.

I also still think adding light panels at critical corners like the Kink will still add value.

If drivers can't or won't observe and respond to warnings - they need to be taken off the grid until they learn to pay attention/react accordingly or until they have enough mental bandwidth to spare to be aware of anything beyond the car in front of them.

However, there are still situations where the straight-up visibility of flags is reduced or compromised - be it due to lighting conditions, or traffic, etc, and the Flagtronics unit or similar will give us a path to improve the situation, in a way that is of value to all racers.

Perhaps they should make it small enough to put on the inside of the helmet visor...

If it is a truly stand alone system that does NOT need an expensive dash then I guess it might be OK. But if it becomes a subscription service time to stop playing with race cars, again.

Since I live in PA I can actually turn my formula first into a street car with some add on's and have one of the coolest street rods of anyone. The local dune buggy manufacture has a special inspection license and they even got a sprint car licensed for someone and I actually saw him on the road to HBG one day.

Ed

No problem putting them together. I can make a protocol and help you out if you want to put them on the same CANbus.[/QUOTE]

I will be in touch to add this update once VSCDA commits to using the flagtronics systems

I think the first step would be lights and signals outside the car. They are already being used and I know they were in place for the Lime Rock TransAm weekend, so maybe some of the FRP Guys can chime in if they found them helpful. A rain warning light could be very helpful at some long tracks….

advantages is they could be put in areas that might be dangerous to workers or hung above the track on wires like the camera systems. Having signals on both sides of the track (flag on one side and light on the other,) would be a big help when multiple cars are together and one might obscure the view of another.

on a separate note, a green/yellow/red/black system would eliminate any advantage a radio system would provide at the start for example. Otoh- one diver would like a radio where he could monitor the control frequency to get immediate updates on track conditions.

ChrisZ

I was a participant at the FRP / TransAm race at Road America last weekend where this system was used.

I did not have an in-car display setup, and until they are a bit smaller it will be difficult to get one installed due to the clearance between my knuckles and dash while turning the wheel.

My experience with the lighted corner boards started out negative, but by the end of the weekend I began to prefer them to the flaggers. The light boards were mounted about 5 feet above the flagger station. At first I hated them because in a clear course condition the boards are black. I did not like seeing a black rectangle near the flag station as it required some extra mental processing passing each station to know it was the board and not a black flag. However, after a couple of sessions and seeing the panels used in a waiving yellow, stationary yellow, white slow vehicle, ect. I began to rely on the board and not the flagger. The visibility of the board when lit with a condition was better then the flagger. During the times of a waiving yellow, I could glance at the flagger to see how energetic he was about the waiving yellow.

Overall I think the light panels at the stations are great, but I'm not really wild about needing the in-car module.

1) Code 35 where you drive around at 35mph: This system has a set of indicators/signals that gets the driver down to 35 and keeps him there. Race control will know if you are not complying.

2) Formula cars represent a small share of this products sales. I do not see them jumping to solve our packaging issues.

3) I am going to buy a unit and reverse engineer the packaging (not electronics). The unit is sealed. Hopefully it is just the back cover that is sealed around the perimeter. At a minimum something has to be done to minimize the cabling.

Brian

Brian, before you burn too much effort they did mention (earlier in this thread IIRC) that they are working on a smaller unit...

Kinda a info here. At my first race this year, which was an FRP event at Pitt along with the FV bday party, on the track our group FST and east coast FF, had a black flag. I noticed it at the start finish line and slowed for the lap and when I came down pit lane I was told I blew the black flag. After thinking about it I think what might have happened was as the weekend progressed I started to notice the corner stations would just hang the flag at the station. Well with the stations being brown the black flag could blend in if not moving or placed away from the station. So sometimes a contrast is required or even better a movement really helps.

I have been to a few tracks that used the brilliant led light boards and I do like them. They are like a giant Afterburner rain light and quite easy to see. After 40+ years of racing I have rarely have missed a flag and it is usually while passing another car and physically not being able to see the first flag. Not trying to make an excuse, but this can happen even to those who actually pay attention to what they are doing.

Ed

There was a car Sunday afternoon that missed the Checkered Flag 3 or 4 laps in a row, they just kept running laps alone on a wet track. I would like to think an in car unit would help.

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Originally Posted by brian styczynski

There was a car Sunday afternoon that missed the Checkered Flag 3 or 4 laps in a row, they just kept running laps alone on a wet track. I would like to think an in car unit would help.

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I like your optimism, but the reality is that you can't fix stupid. And the fellow you refer to should have his license suspended and/or be sent back to race school.....

bt

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Originally Posted by brian styczynski

There was a car Sunday afternoon that missed the Checkered Flag 3 or 4 laps in a row, they just kept running laps alone on a wet track. I would like to think an in car unit would help.

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This.

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Originally Posted by romoman

I can make a protocol and help you out if you want to put them on the same CANbus.

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I would be very interested in that too, when you get one done.

As a side note, I did send a message to Flagtronics with some questions, and they were not sure how a display like the GS Dash or MXM would display their messages, since they use colors.
Would it be possible to as an "aftermarket guy" to customize how it displays for our non-color displays?
Perhaps flash all the shift light & warning light LEDs the needed color, then have text pop up saying what the flag is (at least for Local Yellow or FCY)?

This sounds interesting (but I'm not sure exactly what it means).

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Originally Posted by vtjballeng

• The Flagtronics system does offer backup timing & scoring data that is currently used if a transponder fails or similar issues arise during a race.

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Does it mean a racer's weekend isn't turned upside down if their transponder craps out after many years of hard life?

I also like the idea of my Aim system (MXm in my case) flashing lights triggered by Flagtronics.

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Originally Posted by Matt Clark

I would be very interested in that too, when you get one done.

As a side note, I did send a message to Flagtronics with some questions, and they were not sure how a display like the GS Dash or MXM would display their messages, since they use colors.
Would it be possible to as an "aftermarket guy" to customize how it displays for our non-color displays?
Perhaps flash all the shift light & warning light LEDs the needed color, then have text pop up saying what the flag is (at least for Local Yellow or FCY)?

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It's already done. I have been doing it in Trans Am. The dash gets the flagtronics info. You can make alarms or transfer it to an SmartyCam 3 for overlay on the video. The notification of the flags will be based on what your dash can do - MXm and GS Dash could flash colored lights, but not change the screen color. The data is taken in like any other ECU message and has the same alarm functionality.

The integration works with an Evo4s or Evo5 (GS Dash) or the MXm provided the ECU connection is available or available to modify.

I had a thought - as my wife would say "that's dangerous".

How about lights that can be attached to the inside edge of each mirror.

I certainly look at my mirrors more than my dash.

If they had a remote light output.... (and remote antenna)

Probably wouldn't take much in the wiring. 4 LEDs in some sort of streamline case (1" x 3/8") that can be glued or riveted.
That way the main box could be remotely mounted / powered - right next to my 8-track. ;)

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Originally Posted by romoman

It's already done. I have been doing it in Trans Am. The dash gets the flagtronics info. You can make alarms or transfer it to an SmartyCam 3 for overlay on the video. The notification of the flags will be based on what your dash can do - MXm and GS Dash could flash colored lights, but not change the screen color. The data is taken in like any other ECU message and has the same alarm functionality.

The integration works with an Evo4s or Evo5 (GS Dash) or the MXm provided the ECU connection is available or available to modify.

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Perfect. When Flagtronics shows what the small form factor units are like, I will probably get one.
Might not be in place every weekend, depending on what series we are running with that weekend... but I am guessing next year will utilize them more weekends than not.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

I had a thought - as my wife would say "that's dangerous".

How about lights that can be attached to the inside edge of each mirror.

I certainly look at my mirrors more than my dash.

If they had a remote light output.... (and remote antenna)

Probably wouldn't take much in the wiring. 4 LEDs in some sort of streamline case (1" x 3/8") that can be glued or riveted.
That way the main box could be remotely mounted / powered - right next to my 8-track. ;)

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That could be interesting as well, because then other drivers might also see those easier if you are in a tight pack & battle.

But if I understand the general gist of this thread, to make the Flagtronics work, one needs more than just the ft system,like a data system or something for the signal from race control or wherever to tell the light n your dash to turn on,, Right?

No it has it's own LED display -- but it's really designed for dash mounting on enclosed cockpit cars. It could be mounted out of sight, if you can program the CAN input on your dash appropriately.

I will say their protocol has lots of status info, so it could be flashing / indicating all the time.

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to continue answering some of the open questions here :greenflag:.

• The Flagtronics FT200 is a standalone system. Nothing else is required. No fees. No subscription. No software charges.
• Using GPS09C will be available in the future. Since AiM opened this up with a new offering, the GPS09C OPEN. There is little standardization in the world of GPS communication and we need high quality, high update rate, reliable data for our application.
• We do operate over CAN Bus and will have AiM built in integration. Currently, you can display warnings on an AiM dash via the screen or buttons on the sides or top.
• We do have an FRP install example
• FT200 has CAN Bus programmability so it can come in over pre-existing ECU busses.
• Thank @romoman for answer technical questions here!
• There are a lot of situations in which an FT200 helps that is not apparent to a driver. We can see when a car is stopped in the middle of the track around a blind corner. We can see wrecks. We can see who hit with what severity to help those in critical need first.
• With an FT200 you can see when another car is blocking your view to a flag stand. Some of my drivers have run into this before the Flagtronics system.
• Helmet visor is on the roadmap but not near term
• Since the question of subscription, fees, and cost is recurring here - NO SUBSCRIPTION! Flagtronics is the only system in the US and, as far as I'm aware, in the world that comes without a subscription. Again here, we're also racers and we know how people feel about this. We have some really old transponders we share among friends for the same reasons you do. Standalone system with no other fees or requirements. We do not wish to gatekeep safety.
• We are working on smaller formula car packaging. We can get smaller packaging due to the way we do our boards internally. An important detail is being able to still convey more complex flags such as black flag, meatball, etc in an intuitive way. Keep in mind the current packaging is already small.
• Our current black flag indication shows "BF" on the panels and FT200, is flashing, and has a high level of contrast and movement.
• SOP is to throw a checkered flag at start/finish that appears at the start/finish station and at cars in the start/finish zone. If we have a runner, we will often choose to throw either full course checkered flag or full course black flag to get the runner back in quickly. We've saved several laps multiple times in runner scenarios.
• You can choose alarm LEDs with colors and various patterns or text alarms or direct graphics on several dashes from AiM, MoTeC, Bosch, ECUMaster, etc to indicate a flag state.
• Usually T&S will try to manually count laps if a racer's transponder fails but this isn't always possible. We have saved some of those racer's events by using our data.

Attachment 107787

Now mandated for the 2024 Runoffs, per the Fastrack just released.

So is it a good thing or a bad thing that it doesn't say it has to be visible, just in the car???

Note also that the rule MANDATES the FT200.

So if you come up with a more compact display, you'd better call it the same... thanks to SCCA's genius ability to plan ahead... LOL

REALLY feeling burned by the FIA rule right now...

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Originally Posted by vtjballeng

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to continue answering some of the open questions here :greenflag:

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Thanks for the picture but I'm not sure how I would see that with my hand on the wheel !

That picture also points out that my idea of lights on the mirrors would be SUPERIOR as you can keep your head up.

Q: If you get one of these and integrate it, how do you test it?

Q: If these transmit GPS data, etc., can these eventually replace the current beacons?

I'll let you get busy - you only have a few months before the runoffs.

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Originally Posted by 924RACR

Now mandated for the 2024 Runoffs, per the Fastrack just released.

So is it a good thing or a bad thing that it doesn't say it has to be visible, just in the car???

Note also that the rule MANDATES the FT200.

So if you come up with a more compact display, you'd better call it the same... thanks to SCCA's genius ability to plan ahead... LOL

REALLY feeling burned by the FIA rule right now...

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Having this forced on us so quickly is BS, It's a new technology, and it should certainly be proven out by the early adopters before we're all forced to pay $250+ to implement. This hasn't even been used at an SCCA race yet...

I think people are in for a shock when they figure out what it's going to cost to put this into an existing system via CAN bus. To add a CAN bus port on my old Motec I had to re-do a section of wire harness and probably spent $300+ on wire, connectors, heat shrink, boots, ect. just to add a CAN channel.

Even better is my old Motec is not compatible with this system, so I need to find room for the unit, all the wiring, and a separate GPS antenna. I'll have 2 GPS antennas on my car now. More crap to maintain. Awesome.

The club needs to reconsider this rule change.I was asked at time of registration for the Runoff’s whether I chose to participate in their new system and I opted not to.I thought it should be implemented next year so everyone could plan for this Major investment.I have paid my entry and I consider the matter closed.Please call / Email the club to have this changed to next season so more planning can take place.I’m not against it,but it does add another cost to people who are interested in getting involved in Racing in our Club.Are other Clubs mandating this in such a hasty manner,I think not
Respectfully
Tim Minor Fc88

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Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering

Having this forced on us so quickly is BS, It's a new technology, and it should certainly be proven out by the early adopters before we're all forced to pay $250+ to implement. This hasn't even been used at an SCCA race yet...

I think people are in for a shock when they figure out what it's going to cost to put this into an existing system via CAN bus. To add a CAN bus port on my old Motec I had to re-do a section of wire harness and probably spent $300+ on wire, connectors, heat shrink, boots, ect. just to add a CAN channel.

Even better is my old Motec is not compatible with this system, so I need to find room for the unit, all the wiring, and a separate GPS antenna. I'll have 2 GPS antennas on my car now. More crap to maintain. Awesome.

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The cost is completely dependent on the install. I've done the integration for the cost of a DTM connector and done it where it was probably $100. If you had a FV with an S2DL, there would be no cost.

And remember that the integration is not required or necessary!

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Thanks for the picture but I'm not sure how I would see that with my hand on the wheel !

That picture also points out that my idea of lights on the mirrors would be SUPERIOR as you can keep your head up.

Q: If you get one of these and integrate it, how do you test it?

Q: If these transmit GPS data, etc., can these eventually replace the current beacons?

I'll let you get busy - you only have a few months before the runoffs.

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There is a test mode on the FT200 that goes through the flags for testing purposes.

What mirrors do you have? How do you propose to A. Include the wiring to the mirror and B. Fit an LED into the glass?

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Originally Posted by Tim Minor

The club needs to reconsider this rule change.I was asked at time of registration for the Runoff’s whether I chose to participate in their new system and I opted not to.I thought it should be implemented next year so everyone could plan for this Major investment.I have paid my entry and I consider the matter closed.Please call / Email the club to have this changed to next season so more planning can take place.I’m not against it,but it does add another cost to people who are interested in getting involved in Racing in our Club.Are other Clubs mandating this in such a hasty manner,I think not
Respectfully
Tim Minor Fc88

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The Runoffs mandate is for 2024, not this year.

The above picture of an installation is my Van Diemen. It took me less than 1 hour, two zip ties, a piece of velcro and a bit of ingenuity. I can see it very well with my hands on the steering wheel, yet it is not intrusive. It compliments the light panels and flags around the track but does not distract my attention from them.

It was live at the Trans Am weekend at Road America two weeks ago and took about one session to become part of my overall spatial awareness. All good. Don't try to over-analyze it; its not that difficult and it is the future as we have fewer and fewer flaggers showing up at tracks.

The cost is equivalent to about 1 tire

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Originally Posted by romoman

What mirrors do you have? How do you propose to A. Include the wiring to the mirror and B. Fit an LED into the glass?

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Thanks.

I have some similar to these:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...sp?RecID=11025

What I would suggest is mounting on the edge of the mirror housing below or cockpit side, run the wire down the stem and heat shrink it to the back of the stem. You then of course need to put the wiring through the bodywork.

Attachment 107788

Everything is a compromise, right?

When you combine this and the rainlight, then factor in installation labor, we have added $500+ to the cost of participation. While this is insignificant to those spending $5-10K per race event (or much more) there are still racers trying to spend $5-10K per season. These added costs are like spitting on those racers. "If you don't like it, quit racing with SCCA."

Amen Greg!!!!

Except I spend more like $3-4K

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Originally Posted by vtjballeng

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to continue answering some of the open questions here :greenflag:.

• The Flagtronics FT200 is a standalone system. Nothing else is required. No fees. No subscription. No software charges.
• Using GPS09C will be available in the future. Since AiM opened this up with a new offering, the GPS09C OPEN. There is little standardization in the world of GPS communication and we need high quality, high update rate, reliable data for our application.
• We do operate over CAN Bus and will have AiM built in integration. Currently, you can display warnings on an AiM dash via the screen or buttons on the sides or top.
• We do have an FRP install example
• FT200 has CAN Bus programmability so it can come in over pre-existing ECU busses.
• Thank @romoman for answer technical questions here!
• There are a lot of situations in which an FT200 helps that is not apparent to a driver. We can see when a car is stopped in the middle of the track around a blind corner. We can see wrecks. We can see who hit with what severity to help those in critical need first.
• With an FT200 you can see when another car is blocking your view to a flag stand. Some of my drivers have run into this before the Flagtronics system.
• Helmet visor is on the roadmap but not near term
• Since the question of subscription, fees, and cost is recurring here - NO SUBSCRIPTION! Flagtronics is the only system in the US and, as far as I'm aware, in the world that comes without a subscription. Again here, we're also racers and we know how people feel about this. We have some really old transponders we share among friends for the same reasons you do. Standalone system with no other fees or requirements. We do not wish to gatekeep safety.
• We are working on smaller formula car packaging. We can get smaller packaging due to the way we do our boards internally. An important detail is being able to still convey more complex flags such as black flag, meatball, etc in an intuitive way. Keep in mind the current packaging is already small.
• Our current black flag indication shows "BF" on the panels and FT200, is flashing, and has a high level of contrast and movement.
• SOP is to throw a checkered flag at start/finish that appears at the start/finish station and at cars in the start/finish zone. If we have a runner, we will often choose to throw either full course checkered flag or full course black flag to get the runner back in quickly. We've saved several laps multiple times in runner scenarios.
• You can choose alarm LEDs with colors and various patterns or text alarms or direct graphics on several dashes from AiM, MoTeC, Bosch, ECUMaster, etc to indicate a flag state.
• Usually T&S will try to manually count laps if a racer's transponder fails but this isn't always possible. We have saved some of those racer's events by using our data.

Attachment 107787

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So all I need is a flagtronics system? No existing data system or fancy dash? And how much does the flagtronics system cost?