Meanwhile, how much did track design contribute to the need for a safety car in the first place?
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Meanwhile, how much did track design contribute to the need for a safety car in the first place?
Years ago I refereed High School, Junior High and Elementary school wrestling. No matter what call I made I pissed off 50% of the crowd. So if the scenario had been reversed, with Hamilton in second with newer tires, Max leading and the backmarkers between, the crash, the safety car, the jabbering on the radio to Masi, the restart and Hamilton passing Max in the same way and winning another title...well the controversy would be the same... that said, it was an exciting last lap..
The entire market is unsure right now. Not a good time to think ONE incident causes a drop in Liberty Stock. Brokers don't care who won or how, they want to know if Liberty is making money in all of its markets.Quote:
Originally Posted by FVRacer21
As far as the championship, in general people have been positive about it (exclude the media which is no longer relevant post covid). The only negative posts are here and really what does complaining do about it? Will they take the championship away? Will they give it to Hamilton so he can grow more arrogant and think even more we care what he thinks about the world?
This is only valid if it went the other way and Max did not pass Hamilton and you would still say it was a bad deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
yeah...but it's called racing. It's a fluid situation.
I actually won an F2000 race at Laguna Seca in 2002 that same way. One lap last lap shootout. The other guy had a much newer car than me and a better motor and a faster car and a few seconds lead on me, somebody crashes, and after the safety car I had 2 cars between him and me (it proves it doesn't make any difference if you're determined - there could have been a million cars or none - ok maybe not a million). As we started the last lap they threw the green I drove totally balls out like I never did before got a run on him coming down from the Corkscrew and passed him on the 2nd to last corner of the last lap and won.
It's called racing man...
I don't get you guys....
From MOTORSPORT.COM
"Sky Formula 1 pundit Martin Brundle says he wishes that Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen could share the world championship, in the wake of the controversial Abu Dhabi season finale."
Dave C.
I didn't see it as that exciting.. more like inevitable. Don't care who you are, you are not going to hold off a driver of the same caliber over a full lap when..Quote:
Originally Posted by grapefarmeral
A. Your on OLD hard tires
B. They are on NEW softs
C. Both cars are low fuel
D. You CANNOT afford a crash
E. Cars have relatively equal pace
IMO Once the decision was made the result was a forgone conclusion.
Once again why do we care what sports figures think?Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDave
Unless you've gone back and reviewed every safety car period since they introduce their use, I think "always" is a bit of a bold statement. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
The purpose of letting cars unlap themselves is to let those who are racing race each other. In the context of the final race of the year with the championship on the line, surely one can rank which races between places are the most important.
I find the radio communications that went on between Hamilton and his engineer very interesting. I watch using F1TV and I reviewed the last laps watching Hamilton's in-car and listening to all his radio calls.
First of all, it's clear that Hamilton has no problem with radio comms just because he's racing hard. We'll come back to this.
When the incident first happens, Hamilton is vocal about his bad luck. And when he arrives behind the safety car he complains about its pace: repeatedly.
He is informed there are 5 cars between himself and Verstappen, and when he hears (and sees) that they are going to be let through, he makes NO complaint of unfairness even though he now knows that Verstappen will be starting right behind him on fresh(er?) soft tires.
He ONLY complains about the supposed unfairness of the situation ("this is being manipulated, man") AFTER he fails to defend into turn 5 AND hasn't repassed Verstappen in either of the two places where he had a legitimate chance—turn 6/7 and turn 9, and he doesn't get by because Verstappen did a far better job of defending his lead than Hamilton did.
Maybe no one else finds that telling, but to me, it suggests very much that Hamilton himself thought nothing of the situation.
Because they’re atop their field, and we may even learn something.Quote:
Originally Posted by BorkRacing
Beyond that, for better or worse, public opinion is swayed by anyone of influence.
The same “Why do we care?” has been repeatedly said of actors, media, politicians, advisors, Hell, everyone it seems of late. We don’t have to agree with someone to still have regard for why they’re where they are.
But would I take health advice from Martin Brundle? Probably not. :p
Frog, I agree, and inserted an extra, important bit (in bold italics):Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
One thing I hadn't realized about the lapped cars, is that the only reason they were between Hamilton and Max was because Max stopped for new tires. Max had cleared all of these cars before the safety car incident. At least that is the impression I got from Joe Saward's article on the race. (I can't re-watch to confirm, and I am not sure the ESPN coverage would have answered this question anyway.)
If this is the case, that might explain Masi's initial plan to leave the lapped cars in place, against the standard practice of allowing them to unlap themselves.
I still think that leaving those cars in their position between Hamilton and Max would have made a more satisfying conclusion to the ending.
I would defend going into T5 and not send an invitation for someone to drive a bus past me instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
No one is arguing about the racing. They all played the hands they were dealt as best they could.
With Max's tire advantage, whether Ham left a bus lane open or closed it off, Max was going to pass him on the exit.
We are disappointed with the "revision" of procedure that had an obvious affected on the race outcome.
Removing the lapped cars gave Max a free pitstop. The cost was and should been having to re-pass or re-lap cars.
Max's pitstop unlapped those 5 cars. Ham was the only one that remained in his position ahead of them.
The racing was great. The race directing sucked.
A comment or two for those wanting to draw and quarter Michael Masi based on having spent a fair bit of time in the "hot seat" over
the years...
When an on track situation occurs you gotta do something NOW. The guy in "the chair" does not have the luxury of ruminating for some time, nor the benefit of multiple replays and advice from all and sundry. You have about 30 seconds or so to sort it out and make a decision. You gotta juggle the urgency of the situation (fire? Track blockage? Injury?) and also consider how much time is left in the race and how long it will take to clean it up.
As far as affecting the outcome of a race, anytime you bunch up the field either with a safety car or a total stop some will gain track position and some will lose. Nobody likes it but that's the nature of the beast.
Did Michael Masi get it wrong? IMHO the best solution was a red flag with the restart on fresh tires for all with four laps left, but hindsight is always 20-20 so I won't throw stones at him from the comfort of my recliner.
And if he had complained it would have suggested to you that he's a big whiner.Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
If it was earlier in the race, or if he was on equal tires, I agree completely. But if he defended into T5, then he would certainly have been passed on the next 1 km straight. So I'm wondering if Ham let him go because it was inevitable AND he'd rather be behind and drafting for the next two straights.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
That is the way it looked to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Garry
When MV went past LH in T5, it sucked the life blood out of LH and MV checked out to a 2.7 second margin of victory in less than one full lap. LH folded like a cheap suit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Garry
Peter Windsor talks (link in my previous post) about the fact the Masi has like 2 helpers. The teams have dozens of strategists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker
F1 needs to provide more people on the RD team.
I also agree with him that the RD's radio conversations should not be broadcast (thanks Liberty).
Having been in similar circumstances, it's a case of accepting the inevitable. Lewis, on his old hard tires, had absolutely no chance to recover after the pass, or IMO, to prevent it from happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
The only way to prevent Max from passing and motoring off to a substantial lead would have been to cause a crash and that would have had absolutely no upside for anyone or anything any way you look at it.
As stated many times, basically Max had a no-risk pit stop for the new softs. Lewis did not have the same option.
So the best/only thing Lewis could do was exactly what he did - accept his crappy luck and behave like an adult, congratulating the "winners."
It's a shame Toto can't behave the same way. My order for a new Mercedes was cancelled that morning. I cannot support bad behavior that future drivers will copy. "I didn't win so I will protest"Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
They used to require the cars to maintain the distance between them at Indy. I always thought this was fair....though impossible to enforce....we could enforce it today.
Allowing them to bunch up under yellow increased the excitement though.
I think that protesting the decision was forced on him by the corporate Mercedes presence. If he didn't explore the protest option, he'd have been in hot water. In a sport as high profile as F1, IMO, there was no choice on his part.Quote:
Originally Posted by BorkRacing
Dave, you're probably spot on but could you explain "accepting the inevitable"Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
That does not compute in my smooth brain when it comes to racing.
I didn't see it that way. Ham made a pretty good run on Ver but the tires just wouldn't allow him to get the job done. He didn't truly fall off until they got into Sector 3. It only makes sense that he felt his only chance was to be behind going down the long straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
I agree. The "inevitable" was that by pass or crash, Lewis wasn't going to finish ahead of Max.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Garry
Jack, thanks for putting this into perspective, the key word being “NOW”. Masi didn’t do that, piddled around, changed his call on the lapped cars, etc., all while crucial laps wound down. From what I’ve seen on news reports his tenure with F1 will be ending soon if not already a done deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker
Given the enormity of the situation with all parties involved and his stated desire for a green flag racing end, a red flag would have been the only viable option IMHO.
And thank you for your service as Chief Steward over many years. Always a pleasure to work with you!
By accepting the inevitable, I mean that there was no way w/o severe blocking which would likely have resulted in a crash and Max would likely win in any outcome of that. And once Max was past Lewis it was obvious from inside or outside the car that Lewis' tires were too far gone to do anything more about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
Max is, as we know, a super-aggressive, hungry, driver and would have stuck it in there somewhere no matter what Lewis did. So, as I said, there was no realistic scenario in which Lewis could prevent the pass considering the tire situation.
So being a seasoned veteran who already had 7 F1 titles, logic prevailed.
Be Massi's decisions good or bad, F1 has improved its viewership considerably.
So F-1 is now a popularity contest? Just let the Director choose the winner!.....Oh that was done already.
In NASCAR they call it "getting the call" alleging one of the Frances put the word in.
No. Complaining after the fact suggested that he was playing to the audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Garry
His lack of complaint at the time it was all happening suggests he didn't find it unacceptable.
So you're suggesting that you shouldn't defend because a pass MIGHT happen later?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Garry
The pass happened and then he was done. It was a stupid choice by Hamilton.
All season Mercedes were getting free rides from stewards.
And Max was getting penalized excessively.
He won Wolrd Championship.
There is not one driver that thinks he doesn't deserve it.
Fans just state opinions.
Max is drivers Champion.
Karma is a bitch Lewis.
He had no choice. He was on old hards. Ver was on almost new softs. If Ham held off Ver in 5, then he would certainly be toast in the following long straight, especially since he would have been on a compromised line exiting onto that straight. Ham's only chance was to try to pass using the long back straight and pray he could hold off Ver.Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
I guess we just disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
Amazing how Sir Lewis forgot how to race after only 7 World Championships.
Too busy fighting the evil American and Middle East Society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland V. Johnson
Is anybody gonna give Perez props for phenomenal blocking and sandbagging in front of Lewis.
It's racing .
This one just did not favor Hammer.
P.S.
And fact that Toto and Lewis publicly stated to not show up at ceremony .
Sour losers..
I think it's not the loss but a 'protest' of the FIAs handling of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazis31
They SHOULD be concerned about how all this played out.
They better be taking steps to fix what went wrong.
Max is certainly a deserving champion, but with an advantage handed to him there will always be a question.
And he doesn't deserve that.
You know I don't really care who wins but max got WAY more forgiveness from the stewards all season than lewis got. I disagree that he was penalized excessively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazis31
Maybe he would have been toast...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Garry
...but just giving it up at the first overtaking opportunity doesn't seem smart to me.
In 15 years, I’ve yet to see a single thread involving Lewis that wasn’t ripe with Hammy Hate.
What a crappy era to be a Hero.
There has always been hate one way or an other, your not from my country-- you cheat conspiracy theories have been about for many many years. The problem is the internet and social media you can reach the masses that you never could from a soapbox. The keyboard warrior doesn't have to exert much effort to get a rise.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
I have seen behavior on the net from what appeared to be a normal person, yet he spent an excessive amount of time to engage with a convicted internet loon. When I asked why? I got I do it for entertainment.
As much as the internet provides positive items there is a whole dark side which brings out incomprehensible behavior.
Fresh softs were likely at that point to have at least a 2-second/lap advantage over the old hards.Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
As I said previously, a blocking or any other move that could have prevented a pass under these circumstances would have had, IMO, a very high probability of causing a wreck - not worth the possible serious outcomes or at the minimum a serious blow to Lewis' reputation and self-image, given how hard he has worked to deserve both.
Doing a Senna v Prost move would have been either ineffective or resulted in a Verstappen win (on points or by penalty) even if they both finished.
The fatal mistake Masi made was the allowing of only the cars between Lewis and Max to unlap themselves. If all the lapped cars were allowed to go by which was consistent with what he had done all year, even if Max still won, none of this discussion would be happening. It would be about Lewis's bad luck that Latifi crashed.
Garry