3:20 area of video will get you the obvious blowing of the waving yellow and the passing of two cars.
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3:20 area of video will get you the obvious blowing of the waving yellow and the passing of two cars.
Yes, obviously, intentionally, as the first opportunity it is safe to do so giving the position back accompanied by an "ooops I was focused on making the pass and missed the flag" gesture would quite likely go un-protested by a fellow competitor. However, a corner worker or tow operator may feel very differently about the fact that less attention/regard was given to their safety and file a protest against the offender anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimH
I think a penalty is required in both instances, however, I think the sportsman-like thing to do is immediately give the position back being crystal clear that you are giving it back so the exchange is not to be confused with the guy you just passed under yellow passing you back while racing.
I wonder if the penalty given of 6 places didn't break down as:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
- One place for the place you should have given back (because you can't gain a place illegally(
- Five more for the actual penalty for passing under yellow.
I, too, think that a penalty is appropriate for the act itself. Giving back the place is good sportsmanship, but the whole point of the rule is to reduce the risks to the safety workers at an incident. If all you have to do is give back the place if you get it wrong, you will get people pushing the envelope. The penalty MUST be painful enough to make taking the risk of incurring it too unpalatable.
I'm sitting in a recliner, doing zero MPH, with no cars around me, and I know there is a flag at that station, but I don't really see it before I see the nose of Tim's car. Maybe it's these new glasses, the camera angle, or maybe it's the yellow leaves, but it seems an easy flag to miss. Bummer for Tim, if that's what happened. Not disagreeing with the SOM, and I agree the rule has to be enforced for everyone's safety, [seen or not seen] but it is always something of a downer when races [or football games] get decided on a penalty call. On the other hand, Simon drove a superb race, and didn't pass under yellow, and certainly deserves the Gold. I'm glad FF has such outstanding young talent in our class. We will lose him to something further up the ladder, and soon I suspect, but I'm glad I got to watch him race a Formula Ford!
The flag that Mike is referring to is quite a bit easier to miss given the sun angle and the lack of sharpness/contrast. However, the yellow at the 3:20ish mark is quite apparent, and would be even moreso on track IF 120 degrees of your vision isn't being obstructed by the gearbox in front of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
I've been in that situation, and missed several yellows because of being intent on the car just in front of me. Luckily I never did that when the penalty was so significant (losing a national championship). So I feel bad for Tim because it's obvious to me that he would never violate a yellow on purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
I hope he doesn't feel as bad about it as I would under the same circumstances. I know that when I do something like that it bothers me for a long time.
I suspect Bartz has that exact feeling for Turn 3 on the last lap. Otherwise once he went to 1st, he was dead perfect. Very impressive run for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
A couple random thoughts of mine:Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
I doubt that he purposely violated the yellow to gain an advantage.
I also seriously doubt once he easily made the pass on two cars and then had the incident scene immediately in his vision, that he didn't realize he had just blown a yellow. But what do you do at the point (sportsmanship aside)that would prevent you being penalized?
Before a corner worker/emergency crew member gets hurt perhaps SCCA needs to re-examine the way they handle yellow flag situations.
Allowing passes until perpendicular to the yellow flag station means nobody in any kind of battle is going to slow as they approach the yellow flag station. What happens when the accident is 300 feet beyond the flag station? 50 feet? 5 feet?
If we are still racing hard and in a tight-ish group, chances of trailing drivers seeing the yellow goes down tremendously. Seeing a hand up and a lifting of the throttle from leading cars would be enough to get folks attention, but also allow you to be legally passed by a gaggle of cars. So that's not happening. I certainly don't want FCY and restarts. Maybe two stations display yellow? One standing yellow where it is safe to race to that yellow. Followed by a station with a waving yellow where you are expected to have slowed considerably. Racers who blow the first yellow would be permitted to give back the position before the waving yellow station? Just spit-balling.
Some of the best racing I’ve ever seen. Thank you for the in car video.
There is a tool available to race control to prevent the scenario you paint and it was used in this situation. The incident was just past 3 which was showing a waving yellow. Station 2 had a standing yellow. That's the one he missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
I guess I am old school. I still throw a hand up. If anything maybe it helps a corner worker notice that I got passed after seeing the yellow. I don't let people go by easily and I don't lift suddenly, but I like to make it known that I saw it at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
I think turn two could have done a much better job making that flag visible. It was sort of just lazy hanging on the wall. I thought I saw it in real time in the broadcast but it was hard to tell for sure on my screen. Maybe not waving there, but certainly more prominent.
Apologies for ignorance on this and I’m sure it’s been discussed ad nauseum here, but...
What are the hurdles preventing on-dash lights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
Yes, I saw both the standing and the waving. The pass was made between the standing and waving.
I'm suggesting that the opportunity should exist to give the position back between the standing and waving without penalty. Of course that's also counting on everybody understanding that giving the position back isn't actually the previously overtaken car making a pass under yellow ;)
You can still be passed after seeing the yellow as long as they pass you before getting perpendicular to the yellow.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamuwere
Lifting suddenly, certainly dependent on situation, what's prudent/required. If I have someone's nose up my tailpipe that's not happening. If I'm the trailing car and the leading car didn't slow appreciably, I'm not likely to either. Debris/cars/workers on the racing surface, yeah I'm slowing a bit.
Cost is usually given as the primary. I think it would be equally a question of implementation including training and consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Up here in BC, we use the standing then waving yellow system, and I like your refinement!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
The whole point of the first yellow is that there is an incident in the track sector following the one where the standing yellow is displayed, so yeah: if you pass after the standing but before the waving, you should be allowed to avoid penalty by simply giving the place back.
But if you pass in a sector with a waving yellow: no. There should be a penalty over and above giving back the position.
Another video. From Burton Kyle August's car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIExL1H3kdU
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
He likely would've gotten passed in any case - pos 2 & 3 were just waiting for the right time to do it. Bartz was the "rabbit" giving 2 & 3 a tow before the final attack. I've been both the attacker and the attackee in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlusk31
Thanks. Great race, and great video. I think I'll be watching this race, from one vantage point or another, all winter.
Damn--that #70 lacks awareness, doesn't he? He's a danger to himself and others!Quote:
Originally Posted by tlusk31
Nice race!Quote:
Originally Posted by holmberg
And yeah... ...#70 nearly had two cars off on the first lap.
Clarifying it’s not Bob Perona, car is #10.
With respect, exiting turn 1 on the first lap, car #70 ran wide letting the #23 car (I think based on who didn't finish up front for the front half of the grid) get almost (perhaps only 6" behind) completely along side him as they approached turn-in for turn 2 and the #70 ran into him.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Then as they ran down the straight away from turn 2, the contact at turn 1 left the #70 car a little vulnerable and both the #85 and Kyle Burton's car (the camera car) had a run on him. As the progressed down the straight #70 squeezed #85 (Livingston, I believe a litte) before forcing Kyle's car two wheels off the road. If Kyle hadn't gone two wheels off, there would have been wheel to wheel contact at greater than 116 MPH.
That's just wrong.
Pushed off one driver at turn 1, then forced another driver who had a run on him to drive two wheels on the grass.
There is no doubt the car number was 70, and the official results say that it was driven by Bob Perona.
If I were steward, he'd have been penalized if someone brought me that video; at least once.
You can clearly see the number is 70 at 0:56.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
https://youtu.be/DIExL1H3kdU?t=56
Sorry Gents, my bad... I missed Alan's "first lap" reference, thinking we were referring to later incidents with #10, including one at about 25:07.
Definitely some "sense of place" errors from both cars. Camera car definitely did well to protect himself.
Thanks for the clarity.
#70 cost one guy his race by driving into him, and nearly did it to the camera car too. He also caused the incident that led to the yellow-flag penalty for the eventual on-track winner. Lack of situational awareness seems a bit of an an understatement, to me.
Of course, the driver of the camera-car probably has a few choice words for car #10 [lap 12, turn 5] also.
Some of this is Red Mist, no doubt, and I won't claim I could run so close without a bit of those kind of mistakes myself. However, the camera-car driver [Kyle August, I think] did a heck of job staying on track and out of [hard] contact while driving far faster than i can pull off, even out of traffic, Nice work!
Careful not to confuse lack of awareness with lack of respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmberg
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
He MIGHT not have been aware of the car he put off at Turn 2...
Pardon me, I mean and meant Turn 3; I always forget RA calls that almost imperceptible kind "Turn 2"
—I'm sure he was busy gathering it up after exceed track limits at turn 1...
...but there is NO excuse for his squeezing off the camera car on the straight.
With good reason. It may not be a turn from a driver's perspective, but it covers an impact zone for cars hooking right exiting 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
Sorry... ...but I don't understand why that means you should call it a turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
It's not a turn.
It's a corner station, but send your objection along to the track and I'm sure they'll get right on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
If I remember correctly it has to do with the worker stations...5 is not the fifth turn either it’s the 5th station, been that way since the track was built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
He missed it, and I missed it, three times, at zero MPH. Maybe, the first time a the field passes a flag, the flag should be waved, to draw attention to it. I like the "turn before the incident-corner flag", but it's little help if it's not seen.
Still waiting for some bright kid to build a cheap dash-light setup with a flashing yellow light and a turn number beside it. I have a computer that fits in my pocket, surfs the web, and makes phone calls too. A light on my dash controlled by race control seems a small thing to ask for.
There's a reason the first lap of the first session of every weekend has the corner display a white flag. There's a reason you should be checking every corner station every lap.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
Not arguing the point, but I doubt I'm the only one who missed it, or has missed similar flags. No reason technology thats capable of increasing safety shouldn't be put to good use, if it can be made reasonably inexpensive [Ahh, there's the rub!].
Maybe the 20' section of wall near corner worker stations should be painted day-glo orange to provide more contrast than white does. Maybe the YELLOW flag should be modified to have a 1" wide band of day-glow orange perimeter/outline.
I don't want the flag station waving the first lap because waving communicates a different scenario than standing.
You know, I get that:
sometimes in the heat of battle it can be hard to see all the flags,
and that we could investigate a technological solution that would involve every single car being equipped with another $200-$500 worth of radio equipment and ever track spending another $5K-$10K the transmitting system.
Or...
We could just remember what our primary responsibility is out there and do it better.
Our primary responsibility is to race SAFELY. And one of the biggest parts of doing that is making sure we see every flag displayed at every station... ...every single time.
I was asked to join our club's driving instructors after only a couple of years driving, and I drill into every student they need to make checking each flag station a part of their "scan". Come around a corner: look for the next station. This is not optional. The only student I have ever failed at our school was one who couldn't see every flag once she was driving.
Yes: it is a shame that what was otherwise a great race for someone was ruined, but it was ruined by his own failure to see a flag and take appropriate action.
I'm not trying to pile on anyone here. What I'm trying to do is emphasize that this is not a case where we need to change the rules because something unfair happened. Something very fair happened.
What needs to change for it not to happen again is for everyone to remember that the flag rules are important, so don't miss the flags.
Not a bad idea. I remember when I could tell how bad it was by the flagger's body language, but now, not so much. Not sure what changed, Still, I think lights would be easier to see, hung over the apex at the corner, or on my dash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Using light signals at marshal stations isn't a bad idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
...but nothing changes that it is our job to see the signals however they are being displayed.
Tim is a really experienced racer, with a ton of wins. I can't believe he'd deliberately pass under a yellow. It seems he did not see it. If a racer with that kind of experience missed a flag, and Weitzenhoff says he's missed flags, and I've missed flags, it seems reasonable to explore ways of improving flag visibility / noticability, that's all I'm saying. $300 is about my fuel and food cost for a weekend. I'd have no problem paying that for the system I envision. "Remember to look" is great advice, but evidence suggest it isn't getting the job done
BTW: I've met Tim, like him, but didn't mean to suggest he was treated unfairly. Just trying to suggest ways to prevent missed flags in the future.
I think this could be taken a step further with cellular, wifi or telemetry to the car. Or turning a smartphone display to a warning light...
https://www.clearwaterlights.com/pages/race-lights
I'll add to this thread in that, as many times as I've raced at Road America, I never knew there was a flag station where that flag was displayed until I went to the inside of T1 to watch that FF race last week. As I was looking around for the best spot to watch from, I noticed some movement through the trees and realized that there was a FLAG STATION there! The flaggers generally wear all WHITE... they hold a stationary WHITE FLAG during the out laps when we are supposed to make note of where all the stations are ... and they stand just behind a WHITE billboard and in front of a horrible mix of TREE COLORS (at least for this event). Yes, the YELLOW should have been visible, but in at least 10 trips to the track I have NEVER seen one presented there -- it is WELL off to the right from where normal eye-sight would be since we normally exit T1 to the outside and look DIRECTLY AHEAD towards T3 - a right hand turn where wheels are on the LEFT side of the track for the turn (there may well have BEEN one there, but I didn't see it).
Electronic gizmos not withstanding .. a proper flag station location (AND BACKGROUND) would be a HUGE STEP in making flag stations VISIBLE. It should be approx in the driver's 'tracking line' - and it should have a consistent background .. one not involving ANY of the flag colors. The exit of T1 is also almost always 'quite busy' and the driver NEEDS to have high level of concentration on that LEFT SIDE of the track. That station is not the only station I've even seen that is improperly placed, but it is one of the worst as far as background goes. The leaves were beautiful that week, but ... . A truly visible flag location would go a LONG WAY towards better safety.
Below is a shot from my incar video showing the flag station well off the track to the right .. when we are all "looking" ahead and to the left .. and ***this one is displaying DOUBLE YELLOW FLAGS*** (FV Pace lap).
http://www.WedgeRacing.com/2020/Runo...on2DbleYel.png
and here is the same station from about the same place on the track with NO flag displayed...
http://www.WedgeRacing.com/2020/Runo...ion2NoFlag.png
and ..for comparison, this is a standing WHITE flag at the same station .. about the same distance away. Sorry, I could not find a displayed YELLOW in any of my videos.
http://www.WedgeRacing.com/2020/Runo...tion2White.png
This situation bring the 2015 Daytona Runoffs to mind. At the entry to the chicane, the workers were standing right beside a HIGH CONCRETE wall *PAINTED 'FLAG YELLOW'*. I went and complained to the Chief Steward, who took the safety steward with him and drove over for a look see.... they decided to DO NOTHING. I guess it was easier to just lay the blame on the drivers if any issues came up. Same thing when I see flaggers wearing YELLOW rain gear in the rain.... How can we be expected to separate a yellow flag from a yellow jacket while racing at speed? Fortunately, it doesn't happen often, but IMHO, it should done right or not at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
Even when we know where the flag stations are, and can easily distinguish the flags due to contrasting colors, there's still those situations where another race car obscures your view of said station/workers. In my experience corner stations are generally well placed and directly where a racer is looking at some point approaching a corner. I've never driven RA, so I may be wrong, but looking at video, I can't imagine a time where that flag station is directly in a drivers' line of sight while driver is pointed in the correct direction.
Congrats to Simon for winning.
This thread certainly has gone off the rails. To help keep it off the rails, nothing needs to change. If you can’t see a standing yellow at the flag station before the incident & perhaps a waving yellow at the station where the incident is perhaps you should consider volley ball or another sport as your situational awareness is not where it needs to be if you are in a race car.
I can understand how the pass took place as an error but the result was what it should be. Leave it be.
Yes, but that doesn't mean we can't improve the process with minimal effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
By the way, volleyball requires just as much, if not more situational awareness than auto racing ;)
I don't see Wietzenhof as a volleyball player, but he seems qualified to race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
Nobody is suggesting the outcome was incorrect, we just drifted into suggestions to keep it from happening again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
If anyone wants to talk about a problem at a specific turn station, that's perfectly sensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
It was only the idea that we had to change the whole system we use because one station isn't sufficiently prominent and a driver missed it. That seemed like overkill to me.
:)
Last time we had this discussion, it was about the kink, and major injuries were involved. It seems reasonable to improve the whole system if we can
The car penalized passed 2 cars under yellow. He was focused on the car in front. According to Greg, Simon saw the yellow & backed out of his attempted pass. One saw it one didn’t. Simple as that. Flag station doesn’t need to be moved. Dash lights aren’t needed.
Daryl, as far as volley ball goes you don’t need a license to play & less likely to die from being hit by another vehicle as you are in racing. Perhaps you can choose the sport that doesn’t require the same situational awareness as racing, I’ll be ok with that.
The system is perfect. The guy who got struck after someone blew the yellow at the kink and ended up in the hospital surely agrees. Lets stop trying to improve things