FC tire survey e-mail

The Spec tire that I refer to is, of course, the Hoosier tire that was used in the 2020 FRP F2000 Series, and used by Runoff competitors for the past 2 seasons. It is an outstanding tire, competitive with anything in warm conditions, and not very far off in cooler temps. Runoff talk was that pricing would be down by several hundred dollars per set as a spec tire. Of course, Hoosier is about the only current tire company providing track support to most SCCA events.

I never replied to the FB question as I thought you were an active racer and would know all that.

The tire is durable enough that take-offs can now be given away as useful tires.
Whoever heard of take-off FC tires before? I have been racing F2000 cars since 1984 and have never remounted a tire, even for personal use.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

The Spec tire that I refer to is, of course, the Hoosier tire that was used in the 2020 FRP F2000 Series, and used by Runoff competitors for the past 2 seasons. It is an outstanding tire, competitive with anything in warm conditions, and not very far off in cooler temps. Runoff talk was that pricing would be down by several hundred dollars per set as a spec tire. Of course, Hoosier is about the only current tire company providing track support to most SCCA events.

I never replied to the FB question as I thought you were an active racer and would know all that.

The tire is durable enough that take-offs can now be given away as useful tires.
Whoever heard of take-off FC tires before? I have been racing F2000 cars since 1984 and have never remounted a tire, even for personal use.

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Does Hoosier still offer these tires? I couldn’t find them listed on the circuit racing pdf by their part numbers.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

The tire is durable enough that take-offs can now be given away as useful tires.
Whoever heard of take-off FC tires before? I have been racing F2000 cars since 1984 and have never remounted a tire, even for personal use.

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That's been Purple Frog's FC tire strategy for years.

Why is trackside support such a big deal for folks? Seems to me the only time it's needed is when the track does not have a tire shop.

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

Why is trackside support such a big deal for folks? Seems to me the only time it's needed is when the track does not have a tire shop.

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Which is quite often - some tracks around here don't have anything more than an air compressor, if they even have that.

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

Why is trackside support such a big deal for folks? Seems to me the only time it's needed is when the track does not have a tire shop.

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I get that, but the FRP blurb suggests not having to order tires since they will be supplied at the track. I think that will have to change, but ordering tires and then asking someone who lost the sale to mount them gets expensive. ;)

That's why I asked if they mounted them too. (for the $700)

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Originally Posted by GregSmith

Does Hoosier still offer these tires? I couldn’t find them listed on the circuit racing pdf by their part numbers.

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The links in my post above indicate yes. Not in the circuit catalog because they aren't available through dealers.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

I never replied to the FB question as I thought you were an active racer and would know all that.

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Umm. I live in that country west of the rockies. West until you get your feet wet.:D
Don't know much about FRP, Southern Series, etc. as it's never been a factor out here.

What about the USF cooper tire?

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

I get that, but the FRP blurb suggests not having to order tires since they will be supplied at the track. I think that will have to change, but ordering tires and then asking someone who lost the sale to mount them gets expensive. ;)

That's why I asked if they mounted them too. (for the $700)

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What ever happens with the spec tire you can be sure they won't be mounted/balanced for $700 a set. Typically mounting and balancing are added costs because most regions have there own at track suppliers. For example the Runoffs had Hoosier Tire Midwest handling everything and a dismount mount and balance was $120 per set.

My hope is if we go to a spec tire that the tire is durable and at a reduced cost to the competitors. $700 would be great.

I'm giving this subject some thought... again.

And because I'm such a nice guy, I'm always looking for a compromise proposal.

I already have said that I think a spec tire is a good idea. (on the record)
We have seen that spec tires have not hurt FV and FF entries.
But, I respect a lot of the counter arguments I've heard.

Also, for the record, I wrote in 2003 that I thought the only folks that should have a say in rules that effect the Runoffs are those entrants that are really going to enter the Runoffs. That said, my opinion is just as a peace-maker and not valuable as a real vote.

Here's today's thought:

I believe the GCR is written mainly with the top 5 cars in every class in mind. (6 years on the FSRAC)
It is constantly tweaked to control the top of each class. For instance there is no effort to keep '84 Reynards competitive with 2005 Citations.

My thought today is if a spec tire rule was decided upon, it should only apply to Major races and the Runoffs. Every other club racing level can have "open" tires. That said, you could only qualify for the Runoffs all season on the spec tire.

That way guys on the west coast could run Pirellis, folks in the SEDIV could run American Racers, etc. etc. since those folks have no goal to enter the Runoffs.

******

OBTW, I know of no track East of the Mississippi that has its own tire shop, just saying. Track support is a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

I'm giving this subject some thought... again.

And because I'm such a nice guy, I'm always looking for a compromise proposal.

I already have said that I think a spec tire is a good idea. (on the record)
We have seen that spec tires have not hurt FV and FF entries.
But, I respect a lot of the counter arguments I've heard.

Also, for the record, I wrote in 2003 that I thought the only folks that should have a say in rules that effect the Runoffs are those entrants that are really going to enter the Runoffs. That said, my opinion is just as a peace-maker and not valuable as a real vote.

Here's today's thought:

I believe the GCR is written mainly with the top 5 cars in every class in mind. (6 years on the FSRAC)
It is constantly tweaked to control the top of each class. For instance there is no effort to keep '84 Reynards competitive with 2005 Citations.

My thought today is if a spec tire rule was decided upon, it should only apply to Major races and the Runoffs. Every other club racing level can have "open" tires. That said, you could only qualify for the Runoffs all season on the spec tire.

That way guys on the west coast could run Pirellis, folks in the SEDIV could run American Racers, etc. etc. since those folks have no goal to enter the Runoffs.

******

OBTW, I know of no track East of the Mississippi that has its own tire shop, just saying. Track support is a big deal.

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If there were no regional path to the Runoffs this would be a workable solution. The problem arises because there is that path. You effectively create another regional class OR you may be putting Runoffs seeking competitors at a disadvantage by having to compete against another, potentially better tire. There may also be a complication at events hosting both Majors and regional sessions.

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

OBTW, I know of no track East of the Mississippi that has its own tire shop, just saying. Track support is a big deal.

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This one confuses me. People don't arrive to the track with tires already mounted and ready to rock? 3 sets of wheels; 1 set of rains, 2 sets of slicks. Is this not common practice? Hell in a pinch I've run to the nearest Walmart to get tires mounted. Track support is convenient (had to use it a few times) but it has never forced into a tire decision one way or the other.

BTW, I marked this near the bottom of importance on the survey.

What is the closest Walmart to Lime Rock? :) ;)

Peter, What about declaring your tires at those mixed events, and putting it in that damn logbook we carry around? Just a thought.

Half jokingly... there already are two sub-classes... the pointy end and the rest. LOL

A spec tire needs to be a spec tire across the board in order to save everyone money and allow people to race wherever they want to race. A "kinda spec tire" does not save money, and just segregates into different groups ..... which is exactly how the class got to where it is today.

I brought up the tire conversation to every person I spoke with at the Runoffs. Some discussions were productive and some were uncomfortable, but I can confidently say we are never, ever, ever going to come to unanimous agreement. Every single competitor had a different idea (and agenda) over which direction we should take.

Some people care about trackside support, others don't.
Some people care about longevity, others care about the construction.
Some people want to be part of the selection process, while others just want a decision made so they can get on with their business of prepping and driving race cars.

Based on my conversations, the bottom line is the class is evolving and things are changing. An open tire rule isn't going to kill the class, a spec tire isn't either. And there are going to be aspects of FC which change that each of us like or don't like (I never thought I would hear pinto competitors complaining about a 20 lbs. weight advantage, regardless of its merits, but so is the world we live in).

Let's face it, if it happens it will either be chosen by a select few quickly, or put out to the masses and 'designed by committee' not so quickly. Each has its virtues, and neither will be the end of the world. But why should that stop us from endlessly debating it on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

I believe the GCR is written mainly with the top 5 cars in every class in mind. (6 years on the FSRAC)
It is constantly tweaked to control the top of each class. For instance there is no effort to keep '84 Reynards competitive with 2005 Citations.

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If that were the case then why was a 20 pound weight added to the zetec a month prior to the runoffs.

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

My thought today is if a spec tire rule was decided upon, it should only apply to Major races and the Runoffs. Every other club racing level can have "open" tires. That said, you could only qualify for the Runoffs all season on the spec tire.

That way guys on the west coast could run Pirellis, folks in the SEDIV could run American Racers, etc. etc. since those folks have no goal to enter the Runoffs.

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This only works if the spec tire is a bias ply and not a radial. The point of getting cars to run majors is ease of set up. Having to switch back and forth from a bias to a radial is a pain so all on one tire makes the most sense. Not that I'm advocating for a spec tire, just saying.

Brian

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

My thought today is if a spec tire rule was decided upon, it should only apply to Major races and the Runoffs. Every other club racing level can have "open" tires. That said, you could only qualify for the Runoffs all season on the spec tire.

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But that negates the savings aspect and leads to confusion.

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Originally Posted by 2BWise

This one confuses me. People don't arrive to the track with tires already mounted and ready to rock?

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I gave up on local shops. Once the "Best" guy in town mounted a front and a rear tire on each of my front wheels. My bad - didn't notice until I got to the track. Had another shop throw a set of Jongbloeds 'in the bin' cause he didn't think they were any good anymore.

So, either I mount them myself or I do it at the track. Balance them at the track too.

I don't run the NorCal tracks, but the only ones with a tire shop out here that I have run (BW, WS, CS, Chuckwalla, Pahrump, Vegas, Wilcox) only BW and WS have tire shops - and I will never let that idiot at WS touch anything of mine ever again. He used a freaking rim clamp on a magnesium minilite and grooved the **** out of it.

I'll occasionally drive to BW (140 mi) to pick up tires between weekends if I have to. Have my own mounting machine and bubble balancer if things get desperate. Here in ridgecrest there's was only one guy with a mounting machine I'd let touch my rims - and 10 years ago he wanted $20 each on/off and another $15 for balance. He was the motivation for getting my own stuff.

Brian,
I believe the thought process of adding 20 lbs to the zetecs was to make a 2000 VD with a pinto competitive with a 2000 VD with a Zetec. It doesn't help a '84 Reynard be competitive with a 2000 VD. ;)

Anyway, I put up the trial balloon and it is now a big heap on the ground. :meatball: Got some conversation started, and Chris made a good post. So back to the drawing board. :tire:

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

What is the closest Walmart to Lime Rock?

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Does Lime Rock even exist anymore?

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Originally Posted by problemchild

Whoever heard of take-off FC tires before? I have been racing F2000 cars since 1984 and have never remounted a tire, even for personal use.

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Well, I do it all the time. I'm doing it this weekend as a matter of fact. My son will be on my tires from the Runoffs that have multiple sessions and heat cycles on them. People at Waterford Hills have been using my take-off Avons for years. I give them away all the time. Don't know what else to say about that. Maybe some "Pro" teams don't do it, but I use my tires for many, many sessions. I remount them, flip them on the rim, whatever it takes. I just used tires from Sebring 2019 at Road America last week. I can't remember the last SCCA majors test day I did on stickers.

And, I have a question. If you never use a certain tire, how do you know so much about them?


Rob Allaer
FC #52

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Originally Posted by CScharnow

....while others just want a decision made so they can get on with their business of prepping and driving race cars.

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I've got a pile of used Hoosiers I'd like to us up but if a change is going to be made, especially if radial, I'd like to know to make the adjustment now/over winter...

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

I get that, but the FRP blurb suggests not having to order tires since they will be supplied at the track. I think that will have to change, but ordering tires and then asking someone who lost the sale to mount them gets expensive. ;)

That's why I asked if they mounted them too. (for the $700)

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Looking at the Pro Series business model is misleading. I would look at the FF SCCA spec tire model if you will want to see how things will work. We used 5 session take-offs to win the Runoffs FF pole as an extreme example. I expect $700 is a bit optimistic, but in the 800s would seem like a big improvement. The initial price is not where the savings comes in for most of the field. It is having affordable tires that don't fall off a cliff after 2 cycles, and which let you race many cycles with competitive performance. If you save several hundred dollars per set, and race twice as many cycles at a competitive level, over time, you are saving $1000s over several seasons. The wealthy drivers can still show up with whizzy aero treatments, and fresher engines, but you have taken a big chunk out of their advantage, and will have a more consistent effort.

While I try and save funds by mounting tires before going to the track, sometimes that is not possible, and it sure is nice to have trackside support when you need it. There would be some irony to taking your Hankook or Cooper or Pirelli tires to the Hoosier trackside guy for mounting or emergency repair.

BTW, I am on record as supporting any FC spec tire. It is that important!

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Originally Posted by EricP

I've got a pile of used Hoosiers I'd like to us up but if a change is going to be made, especially if radial, I'd like to know to make the adjustment now/over winter...

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This is pure speculation on my part, but if a decision is made for next year it would have to be done by the December CRB meeting. Which gives us approximately a month and a half for the Airing of Grievances. It's a Festivus for the rest of us!

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Originally Posted by CScharnow

This is pure speculation on my part, but if a decision is made for next year it would have to be done by the December CRB meeting. Which gives us approximately a month and a half for the Airing of Grievances. It's a Festivus for the rest of us!

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Be careful - you might get the Festivus Pole - or shaft :(

Well, the weight adjustment happened mid-year, so "have to be done by" would be pirates code arr CRB code aka a "loose guideline".

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Originally Posted by problemchild

Looking at the Pro Series business model is misleading. I would look at the FF SCCA spec tire model if you will want to see how things will work. We used 5 session take-offs to win the Runoffs FF pole as an extreme example. I expect $700 is a bit optimistic, but in the 800s would seem like a big improvement. The initial price is not where the savings comes in for most of the field. It is having affordable tires that don't fall off a cliff after 2 cycles, and which let you race many cycles with competitive performance. If you save several hundred dollars per set, and race twice as many cycles at a competitive level, over time, you are saving $1000s over several seasons. The wealthy drivers can still show up with whizzy aero treatments, and fresher engines, but you have taken a big chunk out of their advantage, and will have a more consistent effort.

While I try and save funds by mounting tires before going to the track, sometimes that is not possible, and it sure is nice to have trackside support when you need it. There would be some irony to taking your Hankook or Cooper or Pirelli tires to the Hoosier trackside guy for mounting or emergency repair.

BTW, I am on record as supporting any FC spec tire. It is that important!

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I think without number$ and testing results from each tire, we (whoever we are) would be making an uninformed decision.

In late 2017 I talked with FC racer Mitch Egner @ Laguna and he had done extensive testing on a variety of tires. I think he ran 8 sets of tires in a day. For what it's worth I believe he ran Avons all 2018 in prep for the runoffs. His comment was that he preferred the Pirelli (durability and consistency) but it wasn't as fast. I don't have his contact info but if anyone knows him he may have data collected on his tests. Would be a good source.

Wealthy racers advantage is testing. It's the money spent on testing. Pacific F2000 restricts testing before an event - kind of a gentlemen's agreement but they addressed the issue.

As for trackside support, since this wouldn't be FRP, it wouldn't be Hoosier factory - but a dealer. And they are happy to service.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

As for trackside support, since this wouldn't be FRP, it wouldn't be Hoosier factory - but a dealer. And they are happy to service.

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Not entirely true. When the Southern series started running AR's, we were told by the tire dealer at the races to not bring them under their tent. I was also turned away by two local tire shops because they didn't want the "liability from mounting slicks". So in that vein, I can appreciate why some prefer the trackside service.

I'm not endorsing one over the other because the bottom line is I will make either work, just providing my experience.

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Originally Posted by CScharnow

Not entirely true. When the Southern series started running AR's, we were told by the tire dealer at the races to not bring them under their tent.

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And that was the southeast Hoosier dealer IIRC.....(having never seen anything other than a Hoosier truck at any race since about ....oh, 2003-ish when Topless supported the southwest selling just about everything)

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

And that was the southeast Hoosier dealer IIRC.....(having never seen anything other than a Hoosier truck at any race since about ....oh, 2003-ish when Topless supported the southwest selling just about everything)

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That may have had to do with a lawsuit between Hoosier and American Racer/McCreary at the time over spec tire deal(s).

Since this thread got stale, thought I'd kick the can again.

I have a question regarding the decision making processes the SCCA uses or these things.

Having done this kind of work in my old day job I'm familiar with the classical approach:

• Determine what the important characteristics are
• Determine the relative importance of those characteristics
• Come up with a scoring system (usually based on the economics, but other factors as well)
• Translate that scoring system into a system of equations
• Collect the data required
• Apply an optimization technique to arrive at the best solution, and show the relative rankings of other solutions.

Anybody with an MBA/Systems Engineering background has encountered this, either on the job or in class.

What's the plan, man? What is being considered as metrics for durability/longevity and other aspects? There was a lot of data collected in the survey, but that was all qualitative. To make good decisions it has to get to quantitative at some point.

Assumptions for how many sets of tires this deal is likely to produce for the winner?

And along with that - how are these contracts structured? There's no normal requestor/supplier relationship - the contract is with the club, but the supplier provides tires to individuals.

Does the supplier pay the club for the privilege?

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

To make good decisions it has to get to quantitative at some point.

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That is a great question. Given the fact SCCA has made this decision for numerous other classes and has not made any process or formula for making said decisions public, I would venture to say there isn't one. It's not a knock on anyone, just the most likely reality.

But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one. I would highly recommend developing a process/formula and submitting it to those in charge. Given your experience you are probably more qualified than most!

Waiting for the SCCA or anyone else to design and implement one is a lost cause. If we want changes to be made and what is best for the class we have to do it ourselves.

And if the intent was just to point out the lack of a process, then that's a whole other discussion.

When they run the data through the algorithm and don't like the output, they'll just tweak the algorithm.

I raced in 2 spec tire series in my life. In both instances (different types of racing, different sanctioning bodies and different tire manufacturers) The interested manufacturers had to agree to a set price for the tire for the season and contribute to prize fund. Most lucrative package won. Racers' input was limited to which class we choose to sign up for. In the first instance the tires had very little drop off in performance and most people raced an entire 12 race season on 2 or 3 sets instead of the previous 12-18 sets. In the second instance the tires were just available very cheaply and the prize fund was relatively large. We were allowed only 2 new tires an event. We ran 24 races between Easter and Thanksgiving, ended up buying 12 sets of tires that season, but an entire set in 1993 dollars was $240. A top 10 finish paid your tire bill and entry fee for the event. That works when you have 40 cars+ at each race.

Historically, when going to a spec tire, is there a grace period for "non-spec" tires?

I do need a new set but I'm kinda waiting on this decision...

We have a majors race the 2nd or 3rd week of January and it would be nice to get some testing done before then.

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Originally Posted by CScharnow

That is a great question. Given the fact SCCA has made this decision for numerous other classes and has not made any process or formula for making said decisions public, I would venture to say there isn't one. It's not a knock on anyone, just the most likely reality.

But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one. I would highly recommend developing a process/formula and submitting it to those in charge. Given your experience you are probably more qualified than most!

Waiting for the SCCA or anyone else to design and implement one is a lost cause. If we want changes to be made and what is best for the class we have to do it ourselves.

And if the intent was just to point out the lack of a process, then that's a whole other discussion.

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I do not want a spec tire scca gets the kik back but we need to know so we can set up carats. test First race for me is January. I k ow the deal is done

I just received a call from a customer, who's brother raced at the just-past Run-offs (different class but owns a FC) and said the Hoosier people told him the Spec tire for FC was a done deal.

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Originally Posted by kea

I just received a call from a customer, who's brother raced at the just-past Run-offs (different class but owns a FC) and said the Hoosier people told him the Spec tire for FC was a done deal.

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Not surprised. So why not announce it?

The delay only creates the appearance that they are delaying to create the appearance there was actual research/bidding done.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

So why not announce it?

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Can’t speak for Hoosier, but do know in many areas of PR now there’s little point in competing with the endless distractions until November 4.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Not surprised. So why not announce it?

The delay only creates the appearance that they are delaying to create the appearance there was actual research/bidding done.

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They just have their fingers crossed that the racers want what the SCCA is getting ready to serve.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Not surprised. So why not announce it?

The delay only creates the appearance that they are delaying to create the appearance there was actual research/bidding done.

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They had planned to do it in the winners circle after the FC runoffs race but then well Avon's happened!

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Originally Posted by kea

I just received a call from a customer, who's brother raced at the just-past Run-offs (different class but owns a FC) and said the Hoosier people told him the Spec tire for FC was a done deal.

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There has been no agreement on a spec tire at this point. It is still being discussed as a possibility for the class.

My sister-in-law's dentist told me it's going to be an open tire war between Bridgestone and Michelin.

I'm sure they're just keeping it quiet because of the fact that Bridgestone and Michelin stand to make billions on the contract and they don't want to let us minions in on the facts.

Besides, anyone who has ever worked on a project with more than 10+ people know how easy it is to perfectly coordinate - in secret! - this nefarious goal to screw us.

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Originally Posted by BrianT1

There has been no agreement on a spec tire at this point. It is still being discussed as a possibility for the class.

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...will be interesting to see how these posts age... (I truly have no opinion... am just very curious).

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Originally Posted by BrianT1

There has been no agreement on a spec tire at this point. It is still being discussed as a possibility for the class.

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That's fine. I go back to my question of timing and grandfathering of non-spec tires.

Just waiting - hopefully not too much longer.

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Originally Posted by kea

I just received a call from a customer, who's brother raced at the just-past Run-offs (different class but owns a FC) and said the Hoosier people told him the Spec tire for FC was a done deal.

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The issue is in discussion at all levels; a decision has not been made. As for a time line, that will likely depend upon the form of the proposals. The FSRAC, FC Adhoc, CRB and Staff are all mindful of the timing and implementation of these types of decisions on the part of the competitors and suppliers alike.

And to my question?

So let's see here.......

SCCA takes a long time to announce that a Hoosier radial is now the FC spec tire - effective immediately. What the heck, Hoosier got radials for FF....so why not FC ??

Every FC in the world, in an effort to prep for the January Majors in Florida, shows up at Sebring Turkey Trot test day to see how 3 1/2 degrees of negative camber will work on the fronts along with all the other suspension changes

and the Hoosier truck shows up with maybe enough for everybody.

....and we all throw away all our other tires, especially the Regional racers who made plans months ago for next year on the tires they already had and don't wish to be DQ'd for running something other than the spec tire and will never see a dime from the promised? tire fund

If I sound bitter - remember it's not that - it's that I sound manipulated by others...and I always like to be manipulated by others

By its nature, the SCCA process is slow and inefficient with inherent checks and balances. That can be a good thing and it can also be frustrating as hell sometimes. But it is intentionally designed that way, for better or worse.

And contrary to popular opinion, there is not a secret society conspiring to drive us all from the class and increase costs. There is no perfect solution, but from what I understand we are working to be as transparent as possible. Give it time, you may just end up pleasantly surprised.

Patience, grasshoppers.

I'd be interested to see how many FC racers have a stock of new tires in their shop at this point in the season... especially months after it was obvious there was a possible change in the air.

Just saying.

Good point your Purpleness.

Addressed to all: Next point........if part of the excuse for forcing a spec tire on the class is "it will help car count"....well what if in about 2 years down the road car counts are about the same as they've been for the past 2 years? is someone going to admit that the 'experiment' didn't work and do away with the spec tire.....let's all hold our breath huh?

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Originally Posted by EYERACE

Addressed to all: Next point........if part of the excuse for forcing a spec tire on the class is "it will help car count"....well what if in about 2 years down the road car counts are about the same as they've been for the past 2 years? is someone going to admit that the 'experiment' didn't work and do away with the spec tire...

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IF the "experiment" doesn't change car counts, but it's now cheaper for all because the tire is cheaper and/or has a longer competitive life then why would you want to get rid of it? Additionally, nobody has to worry about showing up at a race with the wrong tire selection.

Eliminating such a hugely performance related variable, and highly consumable one at that, is rarely a bad thing for the racing.

You care to buy cheaper tires............I won't stop you. If someone cares to buy other tires....but they're stopped when the 'experiment' hadn't worked a couple years down the road with one part of the experimental result being car count.

If it's cost, then the obvious vote is for American Racers......which anyone could have run in the past at anytime.

We're getting too hypothetical..........