Final drive is 12:33 so a bit taller than most FC...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
Do you know the ratios on the USF box?
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Final drive is 12:33 so a bit taller than most FC...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
Do you know the ratios on the USF box?
FYI Reny won every pinto race he entered.Quote:
Originally Posted by fmsports
Yea on my best days I get to watch him slowly drive away
No, but you might try contacting them for the information. I don't think their rule book is online.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Nope, just trying to keep the options open. However i know there is more then enough zetecs to choose from at the moment!Quote:
Originally Posted by gcoffin
Brain:
One set all year?! The setup on my VD must have been way too aggressive because i couldn't even get the spokane weekend out of one set. 6-8 heat cycles were about it for me. Good thing is theres enough VD's to scavenge some info off of! Anyone with a VD running Avons care to comment?
Now when we say a race weekend, are we including all sessions? just Q and race? just race?
So maybe as greg said 1 set per two double race weekends? What about the triples? If you did 1 new set for Spokane and Mission (the triple headers) each and one set for the doubles, so 3 sets for the year? Thoughts?
So... I drove one of the USF MZR cars with the oval map and restrictor at NJMP a couple of weeks ago. While I suppose I could have used 5th gear, I never had to. Performance of the car was actually just a touch below the Zetecs as the MZR has a 20 lb flywheel and the zetec a 8 lb.- you can feel it coming off the corners. Also, 1st gear was not quite right for that track and you could see the results in the data and video. Otherwise its a Van Diemen.
Gear ratios are fixed at:
1st: 15-292nd-5th: 17-27, 18-25, 19-23, 24-26, ]Option:
20-26 (for oval Events only)
More like 1.5 - 2 sets per year.
I find I can really stretch tire life by not finishing half the races I enter.
For 2015 I bought 2 new sets of Avons for the start of the the season and then 2 fronts midway through as replacements.
For 2016 I bought 1.5 sets as I had to replace the left side tires from the Castrol accident set
I think 3 sets for a 4 race weekend season would be a good number to start with or 4 for a 5 weekend season.
13:36 on the mazda like the zetec?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Wright
I have listened to this engine argument for years.
I ran the same ZTech 4.5 seasons won 2 championships and lot's of test days. You can't do that with a Pinto engine period.It's not just the engine that makes the car.It is a lot of hard work and determination.I would like to hear some positive solutions of how we get cars to the track.
We can all argue about the same things and let it all go away.
Or we can get our cars ready to go race next season.
There will always be the people at the front and people at the back,but we can all still have fun.
I am putting my car back together and plan on attending races next season.
Who want's to join me.
See You at the track
Tim MinorFc88:checkered:
Tim, for the most part NWFC has it figured out. They run Zetecs and Pintos and balance them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Minor
Most of this discussion is about adding yet other cars (FE and USF) to their mix.
They certainly want to race and do!
I believe the ring/pinion is a 12/33
what he said !!! well said Tim !! :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Minor
Appears the has gotten a bit off track. But if anyone missed it here is a bit of history. From a jaundice eye.
2011 ICSCC had 28 FC's (6 drivers) enter over a 14 race (11 weekend) season. The largest population of entries in the northwest.
2016 NWFC had 110 FC's (23 drivers) enter over a 10 race (4 weekend) season. Plus significant trickle down entries in our 3 sanctioning bodies (29 in ICSCC exclusive of NWFC races, to lazy to count the others).
There is no engine debate in NWFC Z's and P's are scored separate and whomever beats the most cars in class or above over the season wins.
@&$!? Yea
..............drops mic.......leaves stage
gcoffin put the mic back on the stand its too quiet around here:revs:
Then put forth some ideas Dane!Quote:
Originally Posted by 03 db
Roger and Greg. I like what you guys are doing, I think tire controls are the next reasonable issue to deal with in what ever form that turn's out to be.
My post was more about Greg pointing out how well the series is running then dropping the mic and walking off stage... Too funny:ha:
I agree with Zac. My car also goes through tires. I used a new set at Spokane and they did not make it through the weekend despite not finishing a couple of sessions!
I may try Avons or something else next year to try to find some improvement in wear.
Russ
RF95
What tire are you running? You might want to check out the Pirelli's used by PacificF2000. They restrict to 1 set per double weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by drdestructo
Many people used them for more that 1 weekend. Very durable.
I am not saying there is a lot of good video out there with a certain #99 Red Van Diemen having smoke trailing off it's tires while entering corners but that might have some type of correlation with your tire wear issue.:)
Unless a tire manufacturer is going to kick in and provide something actually beneficial to the drivers/series I wouldn't try and mandate 1 tire manufacturer.
Simply just mandate 1 set of Tires ( any compound or manufacturer ) marked by an admin prior to qualify session and must be used for all qualify & race sessions for the Entire weekend. With a provision of course if a tire is cut or damaged an agreed upon equivalent mileage tire and a series admin would need to sign off on a replacement tire be allowed and remarked.
This effectively allows teams to develop and continue using the tire of their choice that they are happy / comfortable with in regards to their setup - we all have to remember many amateur teams/drivers cannot easily reset their entire car for a new single mandated tire (shocks dampening, springs, ride, camber, toe, etc)
This essentially removes super soft tires from the equation as they simply wouldn't last and entire weekend of cycles. And also gives any competitor that had been using more than 1 set per weekend or a cycle of sets for race and qualify only the ability to adjust to a new strategy.
For a triple header weekend like Spokane with possible bonus races that would really make teams strategize the compound choice that can take them to the end of the entire weekend.
I only suggested Pirelli because of their life, not as a spec (like Pacific does)....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobwoo
I would pick them.... Once my stash of Hoosiers are done I'll stay with the Pirellis whether running w/ Pacific or not.
Maybe like one new set per weekend, marked by Greg or Roger before quali 1 of said weekend, allow any set from a previous weekend at any time during quali or race . this accounts for replacement tire issues as well as allows those who have some life left to not burn a set on the first day of the next weekend when they still have good meat as most currently do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobwoo
You're exactly right about the setup. I don't know that it has been said before, but that is probably one of the biggest complaints I have heard about a spec tire in person.
agreed!
good thought on previous series marked race/qualify weekend tires are only options for alternate for replacement if required from a damage tire etc.
This forces teams to not come up with ingenious reasons to require a new tire to be mounted on the loaded dominant side..
Do they have to be from the same car or entrant? (Can I use someone else's tires?) What about a set that only has one or two laps from a prior weekend because the driver pulled out of the race early? Wouldn't that give an unfair advantage? Bob's series has about the best rule you can come up with - you get 6 tires over the course of the event (official sessions) new, used, whatever. If you guys aren't running as many laps/sessions then cut it back to 4 and have an allowance for a replacement for damaged tires.Quote:
Maybe like one new set per weekend, marked by Greg or Roger before quali 1 of said weekend, allow any set from a previous weekend at any time during quali or race . this accounts for replacement tire issues as well as allows those who have some life left to not burn a set on the first day of the next weekend when they still have good meat as most currently do.
Hate to say it but there is no perfect rule set - even if we require everyone to run the same equipment there is no regulation of budgets. Someone will out spend, out engineer, out test, out work the next guy - that is simply the environment of competition. At best we can arrive at a reasonable set of rules and play to those knowing that there are limitations to what can be legislated.
I always come back to karting when I look at rules - years ago Yamaha introduced the KT100 engine which was and remains the best engine karting has ever witnessed. I believe complete with clutch and pipe it came in around $350 in the day. The pipe and clutch were discarded as they did not work very well. Despite this however the engines had to remain bone stock. You could hone them to fit oversized pistons and machine the head to get proper compression, but that was pretty much all. Thereafter it became apparent that there were some engines that simply were better. This was due to the fact that there was some core shift in the castings and the port timing was a bit more efficient. While everyone could buy the engine for a reasonable amount of money they were not all the same - it seemed to be a lottery of sorts, but it wasn't. The ugly truth was that the big shops who sold hundreds of these engines could hand pick the best cylinders. Nothing wrong with that, but it gave the guys with big budgets an advantage that could not be overcome by the average racer. To combat that they set spec port dimensions and allowed the engines to be blueprinted to the new spec. This ran up the cost of an engine considerably, but the engines now were pretty much equal.
A tire rule pretty much will commit everyone to buying a set of tires each weekend rather than rummaging through take offs finding something that will work for one or two sessions. Running without one will allow the guy who has an unlimited budget to roll out on stickers each session. Pick your poison.
what I would like is a set of tires /tyres that cost 650 usd/850 cdn peso.The top guy at our little track threw a set of ar on his car with no set up and ran 1 sec of record time for class .Keray
After running Avon's for the past couple years I've switched to Pirelli's, Its been a good switch. We have been finding the drop off is minimal if at all. If my memory is correct the track record for FC at buttonwillow was set with a pair that had six heat cycles on them?? I find that we can easily get a full race weekend out of one set and still have enough rubber for a good practice set . My tire program for the year has been to buy a new set for two race weekends and then pick the best out the two sets and run them for the third race weekend. When I was running Avon's we would try and qualify with no more than three laps so we could have enough tire to make it through the weekend. even that got pretty sketchy at times. I have to give the Pirellis two thumbs up.
how much do they cost?
The Pirelli is a radial is it not? Cost was similar to Avon/Hoosier if i remember correctly.
Yes, the Pirelli is a radial so it does require a little tweaking. its also much heavier than the bias ply Avons. I have to double check the pricing but I think it was within a few dollars of what I was spending for Avons.
Kind of a fun fact. The price of Pirellis came down after it was chosen as the F4 tire. when was the last time that happened in racing???
Buttonwillow Raceway sells the Perilli's for the F2000 cars
$245 front per tire
$259 Rear per tire
Those of us running vintage Van Dieman's can't really run the radials as we can't get enough camber for them.
Looking back at the start of this thread.
Why wouldn't NWFC conform to the proven SCCA club weights for FC/2L that are deemed good parity over the last 5+ years.
We have to keep in mind this is the rule for all of SCCA regional and Majors as well both long running pro series (bob wrights F2000 championship series east coast & Pacific F2000 series California west coast).
CURRENT SCCA CLUB WEIGHTS + both established pro series east & Southwest are :
Pinto Engine : 1200 #
Pinto with aluminum head : 1200 #
Zetec : 1200 #
Current NWFC rules
CFC - 1175 #
Pinto - 1190 #
Zetec - 1240 #
Why would NWFC step outside of established parity weights & inflate the zetec weight (less performance) & reduce the pinto weight (more performance) in effort to bring competition closer when the NWFC series has a separate zetec and pinto championships within their series.
If NWFC is using those weights because local sanctioning bodies (ICSCC or CACC) have them currently in place it would seem possible to put a request of rule change in based on proven sanctioning bodies/series already having parity established.
We are actually at 1210# due to the heavier spec radial tire.
Because we prefer closer racing on track.
Also the points setup wasn't always split up.
I think these two messages pull together one of the great truths of racing, one that was at the heart of the creation of SCCA's Majors and now SuperTour programs.
There are fundamentally two types of racers. Those who run their local tracks and those with the means, inclination and competitive drive to seek out the best competition they can find regardless of the travel involved.
The latter requires a unified rule set across the country. The former does not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobwoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSS
Because results to date have shown that the SCCA over all rules package has NOT resulted in fair and balanced competition between the Pinto and Zetec engines. If you think it does then race SCCA events only. Here in the Northwest we might have an easier time seeing what's happening because although we race SCCA up here we are not blindly locked to their rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobwoo
Rickb and Peter,
First of all the rule weight set is for both local regional and majors scca events..
I find it hard to believe when the statistics and number make up majority of 2L cars probably in the entire country is 20% zetec 80% pinto. being that the pinto owners are not currently complaining in any recent fastracks with scca at a local or majors level of parity issues for the last 5 years !!
Why then would bob wrights series.. the most established series in the country have the same weight limit for both zetec and pinto being 1210 with the heavier radial tires.
Bob wright is the one person in the country who actually wants attendance to his series.. for any and all drivers.. and I am more that positive he is interested in parity between zetec and pinto,, since bob wright's series can incorporate rules as they wish beyond SCCA since they run their own exclusive weekends they would if they felt a disparity.. Bobs whole series is based on participation and the last thing he would want to do is disenfranchise potential series drivers because of parity!
that being said I think the NWFC series does the weight they ( based on RSS response ) do because most of the pinto drivers are purely amateurs ( lest accomplished/skilled drivers) at best and the zetec owners are more established ( accomplished/skilled ) drivers who have probably driven a pinto prior that have more experience.. that's it.
Bob would you chime in and let us know if you feel the same top level driver in either a pinto built to current SCCA rules vs a zetec built to rules would be evenly matched in your series at 1210# weight ?
Jacob
NWFC is an amatuer series for amatuer, club racers. Various pro series, SCCA Majors etc. are designed for a different group of customers. Since 2015 no NWFC racer has run a Major and only one has run a single pro weekend. As such the rules of these other groups may or may not be in the best interest of NWFC.
As for the 20/80 no complaints statement you might want to drill a bit deeper into the data and you will realized that Pinto folks have voted by being absent. Given the car demographics in the Northwest this is not acceptable.
I have no idea why you have come to the conclusion that different weights for cars that are scored against cars of like weight and engine packages disenfranchises anyone, due to parity !
Finally the assumption that there is a difference in the skill level between our Pinto and Ztec drivers could not be further from the truth. If anything the talent level in the Pinto class is deeper than in the Zetecs.
Regional events are controlled locally and they can do pretty much anything they want.
Those are not the weights set for SCCA Majors/Super Tours. The GCR weights apply. Do you really think the Majors/Super Tour Race Director would sign off on such a penalty? Do you really think any entry who was penalized for being at a lower weight than the local rule but GCR compliant wouldn't be able to win a protest/appeal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobwoo
Jacob- I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish here?? Suggesting that people who own cheaper cars(pintos), aren't as skilled as others who are fortunate enough to have a more expensive car(zetec), is a pretty good way to have people ignore your thoughts on the series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobwoo
To assume because someone only does a few races a year, in their old pinto car (or newer zetec), isn't taking it every bit as seriously as the guy who races every weekend with a professional team is a mistake.
Also, based solely off of your inputs into this thread, it appears you maybe haven't ever personally witnessed the torque advantage a zetec car has pulling out of a corner before??
Finally, you also might not have noticed the amount of cars from all income groups that NWFC has managed to bring together and get out on track TOGETHER. Many of these drivers are very skilled. Many lack the budget to run every race or travel long distances to race. The rules that NWFC uses are put together by the racers themselves, not a organizing body. Everybody agrees that they would like to race with as many competitors on track. They want to RACE, not run around a track on their own. NWFC has succeeded in driving up car counts by modifying the SCCA rules, not sticking to them.
How true! And if you don't think is exists watch some of the NWFC videos from Mission or Spokane and watch the Zetec's pull away from the Pinto's leaving the corners even WITH the weight disadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by fmsports
Peter
You are absolutely correct, any FC that comes in at or over the sanctioning body weight will be classified as a finisher and scored by the sanctioning body accordingly. However, they will not be scored by NWFC for points in our series unless they make our weights.
As an international series that in any given year will run under 3 and sometimes 4 different sanctioning bodies with a variety of weight requirements we were faced with the possibility of cars being legal in one jurisdiction and illegal in another. In addition we wanted cars to run closer together on the track to make the racing more interesting. All of our Zetec drivers at the time had previously run Pintos and were well aware of the advantage the Ztec has coming out of the corners and they were all on board with the increase in weight.
Cheers
Thanks guys for the explanation / reasoning behind your series decisions re:weights.
I have been looking for a car, originally being a pinto - now with all the zetecs on the market at a fairly attractive price was looking that way.
I will run locally at PIR first, But I do plan to run with your series next year and was trying to make a decision on which power plant option.
Still am curious if Bob Wright could chime in on his thoughts/feedback.
Since his series runs 1210 weight both pinto and zetec, if the same driver and same car setup both with top fresh engine builds to the rules - Would the race be even say in lap times ? obviously a zetec might have a torque corner exit advantage and a pinto have a top end straight away advantage. And some tracks would favor one power plant over the other. but do you feel a compromised best of parity exists between the two different power plants. or ?
As they say, TANSTAAFL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcoffin
Jacob,
If you want to win races then Zetec if you want to win the Championship then a Pinto has a bette chance.
Oddly that seems very wrong. very wrong indeed.
Buy a zetec, have a weight disadvantage over parity and have a worse chance at winning a championship.
Buy an ancient old pinto have a weight advantage ( performance gain) over parity and better chance at winning a championship.
It seems something is wrong or partly broken with YOUR formula !
Yes I still may run with your series. but who are you catering to ? the budget conscious amateur racer who just wants to have a fun time ? you say your pinto drivers have a deeper talent pool.. can you mention two drivers that ran zetecs that were fast in your series. I wouldn't mind reaching out to them and asking a few questions.
I guess I should probably try and reach out to Gavin and Mitch.. they both respectively won both pinto / zetec championships.
Zetecs are faster so you have a better chance of winning the race overall but there are more Pintos in the field so they have a better chance of maximizing points. If enough zetecs show up then Pinto advantage disapears.
Currently the breakdown is around
10- zetecs
20- pintos
6 - CFC
so if zetecs are faster ( winning races ) then they must have the better prepared cars, engines, or drivers. especially with a weight disadvantage in your series rules.
Because otherwise pinto drivers with a properly built to optimum power engine, and a well prepared car should always be winning races over a zetec ? especially with your weight rule classification for pintos.
No ?
you did make these comments in an earlier post.
"" NWFC is an amatuer series for amatuer, club racers. Various pro series, SCCA Majors etc. are designed for a different group of customers. ""
"" Finally the assumption that there is a difference in the skill level between our Pinto and Ztec drivers could not be further from the truth. If anything the talent level in the Pinto class is deeper than in the Zetecs. ""
Begs me to question if your talent pool of customers are all in pintos, then why are they not winning the races over zetecs based on this years results ?
Jacob,
I read your posts and I'm confused about your objective.
Maybe NWFC is simply not the club for you. Or maybe you need to run for a year before you can understand.
It sounds like you are saying they are doing it wrong. Maybe it's wrong for you.
They are a group of drivers that designed and agreed to their own set of rules.
As for skill level I met Mitch in Fontana a couple weeks ago. Extremely competitive and well prepared. The whole crew was very nice (well they are Canadian) and neighbourly.