The Falkens are the best choice. Period. Why do we need to to repeating this same topic?
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The Falkens are the best choice. Period. Why do we need to to repeating this same topic?
Because until everyone tries them, they will always be sceptical. There are drivers out there that believe that "only" a slick should be used on a race car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Elwell
I have hear everything under the sun. No grip, spindles will break, too heavy..you name it someone has an excuse.
Well times have changed, choices are limited, and control costs for FV / F1200 is essential. Not saying the Falken is the best tire, but it has been proven to work and been adopted by many regions and/or series. Diamond racing has worked hard to get the rim correct? Not promoting them Becuase we use them in Canada, but the last thing we need is another spec that limits where drivers can race.
Is there any reason the current Vintage Vee Hoosiers (44405 & 44408) aren't being discussed as a spec option?
They last multiple seasons, fit the current VW rims and you can use them in wet/dry.
Can you point to anybody racing on these Hoosiers with vigor that got multiple seasons of competitive use from a set?Quote:
Originally Posted by crypt0zink
Looks dont win races as we all know...BUT Vees "look" much better with the FALKENS on them than slicks:):thumbsup::checkered:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some like the slicks, others like the Falkens. No one has an ugly child.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolling Stone
After traveling with the Challenge Cup series this year as assistant tech inspect and sponsor I really think that the Diamond wheels and Falken tire package would be the way to go. It is a proven product and it has produced great racing with the Pitt race as proof. As Rolling Stone mentioned looks don't produce good racing but the cars actually do look better with them on.
I remember many years ago the MARRS series experimented with a similar package with the Kuhmo tire and I did use them and thought they were fine. It appears that I might be making a return to vee racing at the season ender at NJ Motorsport race and am looking forward to do so since I won't have to buy a new set of slicks to do so!
Problem is this class as great as it has been seems to be slowly fading away since it seems as no one wants to change anything because they are comfortable with the status quo. So until vee racing disappears only the people who are willing to make changes will do so and if you look at the way the class has evolved since it's inception I don't see why we can't make it work. The biggest thing I see in getting people out other than the ridiculously escalating entrée fees is the need to constantly by tires, so getting rid of one of the biggest expense would be a good start.
Ed
Ed, the come back is pretty cool. Well done.
The real question is what will you be driving. A brand new Womer???
Yes, me & multiple members of the VSCDA run the Hoosiers (44405 & 44408). Mine are two seasons old and still have plenty of racing life left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Vintage doesn't equal slow and old, we drive our Vintage Vees with vigor.
http://www.hoosiertire.com/pb010509.htm
There already is a perfect spec tire. The American Racer. It is cheap, long lasting, and fast right down to the cord.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
I didn't make that assumption. I raced my FV with VARA. Always at the front.Quote:
Originally Posted by crypt0zink
Yes, some people were getting a season+ out of their tires, but not folks running at the front. I have raced on several tires/classes that were supposed to be "long lasting"-----Bridgestone YBN's, Hoosier Street TD's, American Racers 132, Dunlop Vintage FV.
I admit I never raced on a DOT tire that wasn't a R-Compound. So, perhaps there are front runners getting a season+ out of them. DOT (non-R compound) tires are a completely different beast than the myriad of Hoosier racing tires.
The Falken package is not going to sell with anyone that has no previous knowledge of it. The wheel offset of the steel wheels clearly would make for some odd handling characteristics. This can not be denied. It is just poor engineering.
Why was Falken not considered by FF? I believe there is a substantial performance reduction using Falken vs say the Toyo 888. In FF the Toyo's are said to be only down a little in performance to the std racing slick. You pay for the performance you want: Falken $90 vs Toyo $150.
Cost is only part of this equation. The average US competitor wants the feel of the performance you get from a racings slick. They are willing to pay for that. You do not see any big push by competitors to do anything about the current one event Hoosier slicks do you... say meetings at events to discuss the topic etc. The Falkens represent too great a reduction in performance be a viable US option.
Brian
Brian,
Glad to see you with another positive post. Have you driven a vee with the Falkens
or spoken with those who have by chance? My son just tried them this past weekend
and enjoyed them. If everyone is on them, then it really doesn't matter if they're 2-3
seconds a lap slower does it? They last 3 three+ years and eliminate the need to haul
around rain tires as well. They're Naysayers and they're those who just get on with it
and don't worry about negativity from those NOT in the know. Which one are you? :confused:
Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
FV people are not stupid. You do not need to be an engineer or mathematician to multiply 4 X 95 every 3 or 4 years. Are there enough FV racers still embracing the "elitist" attitudes that brought FV racing to it's current level of participation? I don't know but it appears we will find out over the next little while. Clearly, there are two divided camps here, and one camp is going to have to back down for the "good of the class". The alternative is to battle to the end and delay a spec tire decision forever ..... which has been the standard approach for the class.
The one clear fact that those "on the fence" need to understand is that cheap street radial tires on FVs is a proven, developed program that is 35 years old. Ray Carmody and I were at that first test in 1980 and this program has been in play in Ontario since 1981. Brian Farnham bolted on these tires at Pittrace last weekend and was 2 seconds per lap faster than the Falken regulars, literally from the first lap. It took until the last corner of the last race for him to get beat. The best drivers and teams will prevail, and everyone saves a ton of money!
Any decently handling FV has already been tuned/engineered around a myriad of poorly engineered designs. What's a little bit of the wrong wheel offset in the list of challenges?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
I call BS. The average US competitor wants enough grip to beat the guy next to him. Those racing FV aren't doing so for the performance. Think about it. Did you choose to race FV because of the wicked acceleration? Or how about the rip your eyeballs out of their sockets braking? Was it the neck stretching' lateral acceleration? I doubt it. It was most likely the inexpensive competition and simplicity of the package.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Bingo. Everybody is dealing with the same limitations. All we should be concerned with is our relative performance to those we are racing against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
Why 5" wide tires instead of 8"? Why a 28mm carb instead of a 34mm? Why drum brakes and absurd transaxle ratios?
I completely agree that simple logic would dictate the use of Falkens. But you have to have something that the US majority can get behind. I can engineer around any mess but I am not the only person voting.
Repeat... Why were Falkens disregard by FF? I am going to assume that the performance of the Falkens is too low. Is the FF driver population any different than the FV driver population.
Driving on the Falkens is going to create an experience that is too negative for the majority of US FV competitors that have always been on slicks. It just is not going to sell. Just a few negative comments will doom the Falken package.
A compromise has to be developed that has more performance than the Falkens.
Brian
There will be as many opinions about tires as there are folks talking about them. Frankly, debating choices is a bit early in the process. Besides, this conversation has been going on for years.
Let's concentrate in convincing vee folks in your respective areas, that don't hang out on the forums, to write a letter.
I have been communicating to other competitors on the subject of a Spec tire. To a person they would simply be happier with a hard Hoosier and failing that a DOT track radial. A full range of budgets and abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
To me the steel wheel offset is indicative of a poorly formulated package. Whey go with such a poor offset when for a few dollars more you can get the correct offset with an aluminum wheel. Too much emphasis on providing the lowest cost package. Just a poor compromise.
Relative performance to others could be the most important attribute of the FV driving experience..... but it is not the only one.
Brian
Kevin Deevey has a nice Womer for sale;):rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
I see the value in supporting those who support us, that includes manufacturers as well as tire dealers. So, I do see some value in continuing with a Hoosier option (I'm also pro-small business) I get all that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
However, as long as the tire isn't significantly cheaper and has some advantage when new, you really haven't had any net gain. The decrease in performance for no real savings.
As to the DOT track radial----I hope you aren't referring to the R-compound tires. If so, you will have tires that have 5-6 fast heat cycles and aren't any cheaper than current slicks. Why would anybody want that over a Falken or American Racer option?
deep man!really deep:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
Because they perform almost as good as the current slicks! They simply do not want a big change and they are willing to accept lower longevity and a somewhat lower price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Again why did FF competitors favor Toyo 888's?
AR is not talking to us so we only have the Hoosier for a slick. I do not support Hoosier. They just happen to be making the current slick. If they do not provide a harder slick then go to Toyo 888's. Make it clear very to them that the class as an option. It seems very simple once the Falken contingent compromises.
Brian
FF competitors chose Toyos because FF promoters jumped at the opportunities provided by Toyo marketing dollars. Just as F1200 racers found that the Falken tire was a great spec tire for their class, the FF competitors found that the Toyo tire worked well as a FF spec tire. To imply that Toyo was selected over Falken for FFs based on any performance criteria is false. The enthusiasm for each tire in each class has just been snowballing. With hundreds of these tires in use in each class, they are certainly proven products that are ready for immediate implementation.
Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game.
How do Toyo marketing dollars relate/benefit the SCCA FF club racer spec tire choice? How did it bias the general preference of FF competitors to prefer Toyo 888's? The Hoosier R6's were a strong second choice with FF. Falken does not have anything equal to the 888's or R6's for performance. I fully appreciate the 888's and R6's come at higher price. Would expect more performance for that price.
That fact is that outside the NE the average FV competitor has no knowledge of the Canadian spec tire combination. I fully appreciate the NE's comfort with the Canadian option but it does not translate into something that will sell across the whole US.
While it would be easy to use price/cost the only criteria it is in fact more complicated than that.
"Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game." Completely agree but is the NE up for compromise?
Brian
You're just making this into an engineering process that will take 5 years to play out, Then SCCA can take 5 years to reject it. There are totally proven programs in place that can be adopted by any group of local racers in a matter of days. That is happening already. Spec tire programs in these classes are 3-4 decades overdue. The Toyo FF program will save racers 3-400%. The Falken FV program will save racers 3-4000%. Yes the cars, in each case, will be slower. Those competitors that do not want to lose several % of performance to have these cost savings need to come up with their plan ASAP. In less time than I believe SCCA can change the rules, we could easily see more than half the active racers make the switch to these programs on their own. It would be much better if that happened from the top down, but that is certainly not required. If a few unhappy FV racers move to FF, and a few unhappy FF racers move to FC (or other), but more people race more often because of spec tire programs, then it is a "win-win" for SCCA and every racer in each class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
[QUOTE=Hardingfv32;480298
That fact is that outside the NE the average FV competitor has no knowledge of the Canadian spec tire combination. I fully appreciate the NE's comfort with the Canadian option but it does not translate into something that will sell across the whole US.
"Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game." Completely agree but is the NE up for compromise?
Brian[/QUOTE]
Since I have been on these forums the discussion of Spec Tires goes on every year, but usually Nov/Dec start. This one is a little early. Why...my gut tells me because the Challenge Cup Series made a decision to adopt spec. and for the most part it seems to be working, along with a combination of other factors. I don't think it has to do with the NE compromising, I think it has to do with the NE making the Decision and going for it, without waiting for anyone else's input.
We can all sit around and talk a say this is good, this sucks, bad engineering...blah, blah, blah. what ever decision is made, it will NOT make everyone happy. but sooner or later one needs to be made.
What does the decision FF made factor on the FV/F1200 community? the car are totally different and react differently.
There bigger picture is bring cars back to the track, and there is no ONE single solution that covers everything. A SPEC tire does address the biggest on going cost factor a driver makes, a descsion that can make him competitive or not. Remove that from the equation and you have the beginning of a formula that seems to work.
-If we can take some of the cost out of racing, this will hopefully bring more cars to the track.
-A SPEC tire will take the advantage of "Extra $$$$" this weekend to be at the top.
-More cars at the track, better change of a single Grid Race.
-Single Grid Race better chance of getting more cars out, racing FV's not FF,FC or anything else.
-All car are equal when it comes to the tires, day 1 or 100.
Again, is the Falken Package the best package, don't know. But it is a FUNCTIONING PACKAGE, does does not require years of testing and debating.
Tell drivers, one set of tires, thats it, they are bolted to the car. If it rains no change. IT may be hard to comprehend, but it is true.
There are a couple of sets being tested in California right now, i think for vintage vee's.
Anyone else have a better and quicker idea, that does not divide the series even further.
The Formula Vee Challenge Cup series decided NOT to wait around for the SCCA or anyone else to come up with an alternative. They're proactive in their decision making and will continue to be proactive. If you're not interested, so be it but the train has left the station and you can either buy tires once every 3-4 years, or continue to buy them every 3-4 weekends if you're a regional racer and every weekend if you run the Majors program. It's your decision on how much you want to spend but don't complain about costs when alternatives already exist. Letter writing and waiting for the SCCA to arrive at a decision five years from now is old school way of doing things and as Greg said, we need solutions now and not five or ten years from now. :tire:
Mark
What FF's decision has to do with FV is that, if Vees continue running $900 tires that last two weekends, while FF's move to a tire that lasts all year, there is very little reason I'd stay in FV. Sure, we all love the class and the racing is usually close, fun and intense, but are you kidding? If running costs are the same or cheaper in FF, I find it hard to believe most folks wouldn't seriously consider making the jump.
The drivers in FF are no different than those in FV. The restricted rule set criteria is the same as FV. What the FF class does is indicative of what the average SCCA driver wants in the way of tires. It is not the cheapest possible package but the best compromise between cost and performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by nbrigido
In fact do the NE Regional competitors really care what SCCA does for the rest of the country in terms of a spec tire? I gather it is 'our way only' from the NE Regional competitors.
Brian
The current FV slick does not last two weekends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago Santos
The new FF spec tire will be good for 3 events/weekends at the most.
Brian
I'm from NE and I couldn't agree more with the Falken tire.
I'll buy a set for the next race if I could get 2 other guys to buy them too.
If I had to run at the back by myself I simply wouldn't run the car. $385 for race entry to drive around by myself? I'll go to autocross for $50.
I wish a few of us back markers would just agree to run them since we can't catch the front guys anyway.
I would compromise with American Racers as well.. why not start saving $300 on a set of tires now?? It's just crazy to not switch to at least the AR even if they last just as long as Hoosiers its money in my pocket for the next race.
I'm easily one of the lowest budget racers in FV maybe some of you other guys don't feel the same but I've seen most of your trucks and trailers you haul with don't tell me the cost of tires doesn't hurt.
These cars are slow anyway and they have drum brakes for crying out loud lets just run cheap tires and be done with it!
On one side you are saying that FF is indicative of what the SCCA driver wants, on the other had the FV guys made a decision that is good for their region and they don't care about SCCA?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
The fact that the guys in the NE made a decision to go forward to increase fields, car counts, and secure single grid races?should not be held against anyone..Yes drivers have gone forward a put an investments into this. All the series and regions have been promoting this.
in the end...instead of waiting around for this winters debate that usually goes no where on SPEC tires, something was done about it and a group of people started the ball rolling.
BTW this is the last place anyone should be arguing about this. This is a place we want potential drivers, returning drivers to see how well the series and groups are flourishing, as well as the positive changes we are all making towards the future.
I missed the announcement of the new FF spec tire. Please provide a link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
The real question is what is the FV ad hoc committees stance on a spec tire and what work is being done?
It was a straight forward question. At this point goes it matter to Regional competitors in the NE which way SCCA goes on the subject of a Spec FV tire? You have the spec you want through the sup regulation process. Is that correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by nbrigido
Brian
That is nonsense. A new FF costs triple what a new FV costs. Cars at the various levels of preparation would maintain that ratio. Operating costs would be proportional except that they both have open tire rules. With appropriate spec tire rules, the FF would maintain that ratio in increased operational costs. As it stands now, CF with spec tires, is arguably similar, or cheaper, in cost to FV. With a good spec tire, FV will absolutely be the cheapest formula class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
There are people racing in F1200 who have never bought tires. The car came with tires. They went racing. Two years later ......
That is your opinion. I know many FV drivers that would race on wooden tires, as long as everybody had the same. Lets find out what the community wants. Once that is determined, as I suggested before, the choice becomes quite clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
B. Farnham:
The real question is what is the FV ad hoc committees stance on a spec tire and what work is being done?
The Minutes from our last meeting will be posted in a few days on the Interchange.In the meantime, I can say that the Committee will address the issue when the Committee is formally asked. Brian McCarthy has suggested that people write a request to the CRB simply asking for a spec tire to be considered. Nothing else. It will then be up to the CRB and hopefully they will pass on the request to the Ad Hoc Committee.
Dietmar
Brain, this was a statement you made..as far as I know the SCCA is not even discussing the subject at the moment? Is there another SPEC on the table that provides that same outcome, and has been tested to work, that everyone could have chosen from? are we missing something. So back to your point "which way SCCA goes on the Subject" current it is not going anywhere. and that is all our faults.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
The Competitors that have adopted a spec have done so to ensure survival and increase participation in our sport. Sure everyone can wait around for the status quo to do something.
As mentioned above, if everyone is REALLY serious about getting something done, then everyone chip in and follow the process requested by the SCCA. in the meantime regions have moved forward using tested technology, until something formally gets put in place.
Also this forum probably represents 10%, if that, of active drivers in FV so getting the opinion of the drivers will be a process.
Great Point! "The committee will address the issue when the committee is formally asked".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dietmar
So if everyone is serious about putting a SPEC tire in FV the let's start the process. or we can all sit around tying responses that will go no where, and get nothing done.
Dietmar has put it out there...
I can guarantee everyone that what ever decision SCCA, region, group. come up with..not everyone is going to be happy with it. This is about growing FV..
So Brain reading your post i assume that you would like to see the Toyo Tire option. let me askQuote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
- Has it been test on a FV /F1200?
- What is the anticipated Costs?
- What is the Differential of a Virgin tire vs one with 10 Heat Cycles?
- What is the performance compromise vs the current "slick"
- How long will they last?
I could be wrong, but I have not seen or heard of any data on these for FV, for FF yes, lots of Data exist, the Canadian FF Series haas been using them as a spec tire for years, but their data is useless to FV.
Brian the Toyo's are a great tire, do you have anything to look at to see if these should be considered? if it is something the drivers want to look at.
BTW, if we don't start the SCCA process, we will be here 5 years from now asking the same questions, except there will be less of us.
Yes. Let everyone write a letter asking SCCA to consider a spec tire for FV AGAIN. Make sure you explain why they should consider a spec tire for FV AGAIN. Then they can refer it to the committee AGAIN that has not successfully completed a task since it was created. Over 5 years ago, that committee conducted a poll and found that 2/3rds of the FV community wanted a spec tire rule, to which SCCA responded by deeming the poll inconclusive, and worthy of no action.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
"Status Quo: Extending the Process Forever" would make for a great reality show. You could do one episode and then repeat for 10 years. :meatball:
I love the implication that the FV Challenge Series organizers are the selfish ones that won't back down and are compromising the ETPF game. During the time since that poll was taken, who else has done anything?
As we say back ome!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
"Its like talking to a bloody brick wall":confused::rolleyes:
Perhaps, instead of playing the ETPF game again, people that want to use the Falken tire package, should just write the letter requesting that the wheel/tire package be approved for use within the FV rule package. That would allow anybody to go to any SCCA race with 14" Falkens and run as a legal FV. It would require no local politicking and modifying supps, etc. Since the elitist crowd consider these tires so inferior, there should be no pushback from them. Those who want to play ETPF can do so, and those that want to participate NOW can do so with a minimum of fuss. One would think that such a step would be a no-brainer for SCCA leadership. It could certainly happen for 2016!
The groups taking matters into their own hands by adopting a spec tire are on the right track. Waiting for the SCCA to act is a folly. Half the people racing FV today will be retired before the SCCA takes any action (which is probably exactly what they want).
Anyone on the West Coast interested in trying the Falkens - Just let me know as I have a set of wheels and tires for anyone to try.
I made the investment last year as I was tired of constantly paying for tires. For the same price as a set of Hoosiers, I was able to purchase a set of the Diamond wheels and a set of the Falkens - now I am good to go for 2-3 years.
I have raced on Hoosiers, AR and now Falkens. Yes the Hoosier is the fastest. Yes the AR is faster than the Falken - but not much at all. The biggest difference is weight (20 lbs). Handling on the Falkens is terrific. The is no waiting for heat in the tire and there is no degradation in performance throughout a 3-40 min session. Recently at Willow Springs on the Falkens I was off my normal times on the ARs by less than 1/2 second - and I had a BLAST. They are so predictable and I did not need to make a single change to my car. Bolt them on a go. I am still looking for the downside to them. Just last month at Cal Speedway in Fontana I were able to run competitively with the rest of the field that was on ARs while I was on the Falkens - and yes beat them as well !!
And here is the best part. No longer am I worried about pushing the tires too hard in practice or minimizing my track time to save my tires for the race. No longer am I scrambling between sessions to changes tires. I push them as hard as I want knowing that there is plenty tire there for the next 2 YEARS !! Talk about maximizing your racing investment.
The best racing anyone will ever have is when the competition has all of the same equipment and the dollars you invest does not make the difference on the track. Let your driving ability and prep work on the car do the talking. Who cares what tire you are on as long as you are on the same playing filed with everyone else. I refuse to put new tires on every weekend just to be competitive. That is insane !
Again my offer is open to anyone who wants to try the Falkens. Free to use because I know 1) you will love them and be surprised how fun they are and 2) no matter how hard you push them or how many laps you run, there will be plenty of tire left for me to run on for the next 2 YEARS !!
For all of the people against the Falkens - PLEASE take me up on my offer. Then you can make an educated decision.
Thks!
Well said!!F1200 Assoc: will send you the $50 we promised you for your post(In canadian $ tho);):thumbsup::beer::checkered::checkered:Quote:
Originally Posted by rvrrat
What is the weight of a set of Falkens compared to Hoosiers?
Post #37 has the information, 19 pounds for the 14" and 21 for the 15", Vs 12 for the hoosiers. Wheels are about 2 pounds more.Quote:
What is the weight of a set of Falkens compared to Hoosiers?
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64836
I fully agree we need something new!
I don't thing the falken tire is the best answer as the level of performance is less than the hoosiers I'm not looking for a tire that will run 3yrs but if we can be competitive for less than a $1000 a year vs $3000 a year I'm all for it.
the American racer is open to the use of tire softeners which people will use to get an edge up. radial tire can be shaved to get an edge so rule need to be put in place to keep it under control. like outlawing softeners shaving an maybe limit tires per season unless race damaged can be proven.
I have found a nitto tire nt05 205/50/15 that would most likely keep most of the performace but would most likely last a year at less cost of the hoosiers. Toyo tires has the prooxes 880 a tire that is close to the same class.
the real problem with all of this is actually our wheel bolt pattern .
the falkens from what I understand have a heavy steering feel this is do to the offset of the wheels so an aluminum wheel with an offset keeping the center of the wheel more in line with center of the king pin this may have a better feel.
not that im looking to open a can of worms with this but a change to disk brake opens up a whole world of options for wheels and tire combos
part of the expense of our tire is the limited production so a better more universally used tire would be a start. below are just the 2 tires I mentioned
http://www.nittotire.com/passenger-t...formance-tire/
http://toyotires.com/tire/pattern/pr...n-tires?cat=11