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Was it really more expensive to allow the teams to develop the engine of their choice? Each team could try to develop whatever engine gave them the best chance to be competitive in their budget. This isn't saying that each team would actually be competitive but atleast they could do what they could afford instead of being required to purchase these enormously expensive PU's.
I agree whole-heartedly.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEComposites
In fact, I thought the race was pretty good. Even though Mercedes was way ahead (good on them for doing a better job than the others) the rest of the field was much closer than it has been of late. Impressive new drivers (although I give a rat's patootie about how old Verstappen is) that showed very well. Toro Rosso with their act together for the most part - Sainz would have been much further up the order except for a botched pit stop. Williams third on the grid. Vettel and Raikkonen quite close in performance, Sauber doing well with some good racing towards the end.
Some people just want to gritch. They want to focus on the negatives (of which there are several) and ignore the positives (of which there are several.)
I have to agree about Leigh Diffy, though. Pretty weak and hyper-excitable. Hopefully someone like Roku will start showing the BBC feed.
I think I'm just grumpy about how much of a let down the race was (IMPO) when I've been looking forward to it all winter and so I am piling on all the problems I see with F1 both big and small while venting my frustration. I felt like I was fast forwarding through the whole race because of the ads and when the race was running full screen there wasn't much to see except all the problems the teams were facing which were numerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
Sure, it is easy to see it as complaining about everything I can but it really was a very unimpressive event. Not a single lead change in the top several cars the whole time except for when they pit.
Hell, even the drivers and team owners are complaining out loud for the media to hear which is unusual in such a closed door kind of process F1 wields these days.
Problem is even a backmarker budget is completely unsustainable. How many people are willing to burn hundreds of millions of dollars for the privilege of fighting to make 107% or to score a point? The turnover at the back of the grid is the main thing that is hurting Formula 1 right now and it's a symptom of the rules and distribution of money/power.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmithwc04
And a USA team is planning on joining that fiasco? :eek:
How about an "Inverse Token System"?
Everyone starts the year with a certain number of tokens.
If you finish in first, you receive 1 token for development and/or testing time.
If you finish 20th, you receive 20 tokens for development and/or testing time.
F1 has a reputation for developing new crazy looking cars and awesome sounding engines. While the relevancy to modern road cars is great, that does not play to the fans. Sure there are some diehard fans that love the technology and stay tuned in for it. But I think a lot of people used to tune in and root for their favorite driver, or to see if the 6 wheeled car would work etc. Now its about as exciting as going to your local track and watching a lapping day.
If the racings stays boring and predictable, eventually the fans will stop watching, and maybe the powers at be will take notice.
With the previous engine rules, when someone came up with a clever aero solution, (double diffuser, exhaust blown diffuser, F-Duct) it got outlawed to keep the cars close. With the new engines, they are keeping the status quo.
Paul
The question then becomes how do they go about equalized performance? With constant development/improvement all season, it will be a never ending exercise in sandbagging to try and get a slight advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulT
Sad thing is that would likely be more interesting than the current set-upQuote:
Originally Posted by Ty_Handke_83
I'm not sure you can equalize the different engines. There are too many variables (fuel rates, etc) and too many components (hybrid/KERS, etc) for there ever to be an apples to apples comparison now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty_Handke_83
How did they do it with the last engine formula? During the last stint they got the engines close, way closer than they are now and it only took about a season. If I remember correctly, Renault lagged that time too.
I realize that now the engines, sorry PUs are more complicated.
Paul
The V8s kind of equalized themselves and they were pretty much at the limit when they capped the RPMs. And any 'disadvantage' was probably around 1-2% or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulT
I'm pretty sure that's not true. Where's you hear/read that?Quote:
Originally Posted by allof6
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/re...90864/?v=2&s=1
Sadly it is true. Christian Horner completely ignoring the years his cars dominated. Now that the shoe is on the other foot he's not happy.
http://m.crash.net/f1/news/215593/1/...gulations.html
Not Christian Horner as he has no power to take Red Bull out of F1. The Billionaire owner is the one making the threat and who knows how much out of context his words were taken or how serious he was. Never trust media who relies on sensationalism to sell copies...... AKA all media.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEComposites
whilst the on-track show put on by the f1 circus has declined in many peoples' eyes at least the off-track product is becoming increasingly more entertaining.
at least in a more and more absurd way.
these people amaze me with their tunnel vision.
The engine formula was very simple with an RPM limit. Worked very well imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulT
All F1 needs is about 900 to a 1000 hp and who cares how you get it. Make the cars light and powerful without too much Df and give them big tires and people would flock to the races and watch on TV.
Sounds good to me:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnovak
Nascar small block Chevy should do it then.Quote:
All F1 needs is about 900 to a 1000 hp...
I seem to recall that four teams have Mercedes engines. If you believe that they are all of equal spec (large grain of salt, but they said that is indeed the fact) then the Mercedes car has to be given a large part of the responsibility for the performance. Williams shows signs of being close, but Lotus and Force India are in the also-ran category, even with the best engine. So I think the Mercedes package - PU and car - is the reason for the superiority, and having two of the four or five best drivers doesn't hurt...:greenflag:
Brian
F1 is woderful!1 love it!! of course just like any sport it can be a boring race at times same as a boring Hockey game,soccer,football etc,etc......unless you are talking curling of course:o;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolling Stone
Curling YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS that is exactly what F1 reminds me of, why i do not watch
You want the F1 to consider using small blocks from Chevy? :(Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
Quote:
Originally Posted by provamo
I'm reporting you to Bernie AND the Curling Association HA!take that;)
funny aside.....i recently drove cross the states and saw an ad for curling club in some unlikely Great Plains state like Missouri or somewhere out there..........freaked me outQuote:
Originally Posted by Rolling Stone
"Today there are over 15,000 curlers and 135 clubs in the U.S., most in the north central US. but also in about 20 or states. Still more clubs are forming in the wake of the Olympic popularity."Quote:
Originally Posted by provamo
They may be "freaked out" that supposedly intelligent human beings waste their time and a lot of money driving around race tracks in noisy outdated cars.
A little consideration for others' choices of activity?
like i said i was freaked out, no disrespect impliedQuote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
I would be freaked out if there was an auto racing organization near the south pole. Doesn't mean I don't give consideration to those poor souls who would attempt such a thing. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
http://www.icerace.com/DSC06603.JPGQuote:
Originally Posted by dsmithwc04
No Charles - that's not any of the poles - north or south. Its a yellow cab in NYC.
JeffW
Teams should be limited only on the amount of fuel they use in a race. Any PU they want as long as it only consumes so much. It would make for more diversity and more likelihood of actual racing.
Charles, I award you the win sir. :beer::thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
I responded to the request for less costly 900- 1000 hp.Quote:
You want the F1 to consider using small blocks from Chevy? :(
Small block Chevy will do it, last way longer than the current F1 engines, and cut costs. So you tell me, why not?
something no one has mentioned yet. Winning race pace and fastest lap was over 4.5 seconds slower than qualifying pace, and almost 1.5 seconds slower than Mercedes pace in FP1. Mercedes was absolutely driving to a pace far slower than they were capable of. Ignoring fuel limitations (for who knows how full they were fueled) they probably had a second a lap in the bag and could have easily lapped the field. I recall Hamilton even commented that he could have lapped the third place Ferrari if he'd felt like it.
Brian
Spoken like a true curler:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
I'm old enough to remember the Can Am and the Bruce and Denny Show....really boring.. and IMO the end of the Can Am.
I think Christian Horner has a point in that when Red Bull was a run away the FIA made them change previously approved parts because they were illegal.
I agree with the big hp, big tires...
I'm not sure what NBCSN is thinking with the AMERICAN coverage of F1 with four (04) Brits...The Speed lineup with Varsha was good...
The series should be renamed the Formula Engineers Challenge Event...please do not call it a race... if you want to see a race go watch a Spec Miata, Formula Ford (sorry F), Formula Vee or F 1200 RACE... maybe all the teams show up and each driver gets a few laps in each car and see which driver can get the most out of a particular car... We'd at least get to see the real talent ..
A number of years ago I heard Bernie say that 'it's not the amount of passing, but the anticipation that there may be a pass...' the ink from counting all that money has apparently caused some lapses in the thought process..
I wasn't necessarily commenting on if its a good idea or not, but more on the chances that F1 would ever consider American engines based on 50 year old technology. Believe me when I say I'm not bashing small block motors from our big three, I've got an '08 Shelby GT500 sitting in my garage to prove the point that I love the sound and performance they provide. :):beer:Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
Personally, I prefer they go back to the previous V8 motors and cap horsepower. Heck, they can go to any engine they want as long as the put a cap on the power to keep it up to the manufacturers to provide a quality car and driver to win. Maybe there would be an actual race as an added bonus?
Brian, the second I read your comment I immediately remembered Hamilton's qualifying time being several seconds faster than the race pace. Not sure why nobody including myself brought that fine point up before but thanks for doing so. I went back and watched some parts of the race again earlier today and I did notice Hamilton looking like he would pull faster lap times only when Rosberg "challenged" him and then immediately let back off to keep him a little more than a second behind minimum. At one point Rosberg knocked off 1.2 seconds of the gap between the two over 3 laps. Hamilton responded by getting every bit of that back within the next 2 laps with Rosberg keeping his pace. Perhaps this season will be worse than I feared. Hopefully Ferrari and Williams will provide some quality entertainment for the next best team this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Replace F1 with a new forum of F5000. Small block Chevy's with 900 HP limit and carbon fiber tubes. Would be great racing. Could actually have cross over between Indy cars and F1 again.Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
I'm under no illusion that F1 would ever make a decent choice...Quote:
but more on the chances that F1 would ever consider American engines based on 50 year old technology.
It is not however, 50 year old technology, anymore than any ICE is a century old tech...:)
Please no limits on fuel consumption. Its just a phony tip of the hat to motor racing being green - which it never will be - even FE or whatever it is called.
When fuel was limited the canny Mr Prost used to lay back in his McLaren-with an economical Porsche motor - and then zip from 5th or something to the lead in the last few laps while everyone was trying to get home on fumes. You could call it race strategy but somewhat artificial. If the LM prototypes run almost full race pace for 24hrs, why can't the F1 cars do the same for 1.5 hrs? Too much regulation has had a negative effect on the racing. If fuel limits returned we would have to listen to the likely lads speculating all afternoon as to who was using more fuel than the next.
JeffW
There already are fuel limits in place. The 100g/hr rate and the fuel tank size are already limiting the engine performance. The spec'ed rev limit is higher than anyone runs.
Paul
Would like to toss this in, it's a catch 22, you want the best and the best to win, but now you are semi-bored of the same people winning ...... go figure ...... Franchitti n Elio/Aussies n Zealand n the Dodger (Rodger) (think it's not chip) ......... course Shumi n Ferrari ......... n a friend I worked with that followed Nascar said the days are numbered for the sport a while ago with Jeff Gordon's domination w/Effringham's sp? help. Hammi and Rosberg as well
Watching racing can be boring, actually racing can be more than exciting ( don't have to go ski diving, jumping off mountains after that, that's enough)
TV- even with the speed cameras, your eyes never really travel from the one box in the distance, no speed sensation, not like personally walking the corners at the Glen and watching the drivers work the car thru the corners or trying to figure out the number of the car that just flew by ............
I know we were worried about tech stuff, oversized go kart tracks instead of simulated highway racing ...... but you know F1, sometimes when they string out, unless you are there, it can be boring ... ( race may be in the qualifying) by the way, NHRA is not racing, it's a physics experiment!!!!! JMO damn cutsy wutsy acronyms
Personally, I don't mind the same person winning over and over again until the end of time as long as it was a close, hard fought race. As I've said before, Hamilton is the guy I root for but it's no fun watching him win without even having to push the car past 9/10ths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo
SPOILER ALERT! ...there will be an F1 race again, and the FIA and the troll will spoil it.
I watched the Australian broadcast and Mark Webber was in the booth.. At one point after Max Verstappen had retired, they showed him talking to one of the engineers in the pit wall. Mark Webber said something like "that's XXXX (can't remember the name), he was one of my engineers at Williams. Well.. I'm sure Max will be working with better engineers than that at some point in the future"
:ha:
so you are not going watch DSsmith, ......... did we lose a viewer, gonna watch watch some Baja, really, cool, bumpy, effing cars, ............. boring ........
Think the RA friends of mine would like this, ........the above entry by me, ....Mike O is dedicated to Duane Allman, actually Duane N Greg, Duane, why did you have to go out on that wet Georgia road on a motorcycle and leave us alone, Dammit, Dammit Dammit ............listening to you now .... live from the Fillmore East N Eat a Peace ......
Cannot, I say Cannot do any better than that for Jazz-Rock-Blues Fusion
Dammit Duane!!!!
Modo, what language are you speaking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo