Please can we keep this thread on topic, and not get into tit for tat point scoring.
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Please can we keep this thread on topic, and not get into tit for tat point scoring.
All of the offending posts were deleted by the adminstrators so you will never see one. Please don't start up a hate campaign - we are here to exchange helpful ideas.
Jim
Godwin in one post. Huzzah!Quote:
Originally Posted by F500
HaHa! Made me use Google, couldn't figure out how Duck Dynasty fit in this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian.Novak
LOL! I had to google it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Question: If I point out the fact that this post is a lie, will I get banned too?Quote:
Originally Posted by jim murphy
I searched for the offending thread on Apexspeed and I couldn't find it.
Maybe I'm just an unrealistic optimist, But I'd like to believe F500 and F600 can play nice together.
Now I don't know quite all the details of the throwing everyone's toys out of the playpen saga, but I will say this:
I'm trying to get on track next year in F5/F6/F_cheap__open_wheel_race_car.
I'm straight out of college with my generation's typical student loan status. I DID do my homework and an unhealthy dose of FSAE to get a pretty decent job. I work a lot of overtime to support it. Needless to say I have a little work ethic, and the one thing that I'm willing to pay even more money for than racing is not putting up with all the senseless bickering. Too bad my tax dollars weren't enough for that either.
Please, take it to PM's, phone calls, whatever.
I Do NOT care who said what about who in the past. I don't care who is at more fault than the other. I don't care who was the bigger baby, and I don't care who started it.
Grow Up.
Believe it or not, your behavior in a public online forum IS advertising for the class, and it's not easy to attract my friends to this class if this is what they are going to see.
I could not agree more. Some people on both sides of the argument don't realize how damaging it is to the class, especially to potential newcomers.
We are looking at building a dedicated F600 car if the decision is made to allow 600's in. Fingers crossed!
Chris, everyone has a right to an opinion, you included. However your best bet is to send a letter to the CRB stating your opinion. This will produce better results than trying to start an argument on this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by F500
Go here: www.crbscca.com
Jay, granted everyone has a right to an opinion. But things that are demonstrably false are not opinions.
I've been folowing F500 for a while as a place for when my daughter is out of karts. But if it ends up merged with F600, I'll probably start looking elsewhere as the cost factor will likely go up. Also, since I'm not an SCCA member yet I don't think it's my place to write any official letters to the CRB at this time.
It looks like a nice F600 you are designing though.
There were exactly two. And no posts were ever deleted from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer360
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45583
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45518
So much for Godwin's rule appying.
I would think that the f6 package will be restricted below parody for some time but will still have appeal to those that like these motors. The 500 package should not cost any more that it does now. We will see.Quote:
Originally Posted by F500
Thanks Chris. Our new car is available with a Rotax too.Quote:
Originally Posted by F500
I am personally one of F500s biggest fans. I was there nearly at the beginning in 1984 and have been very involved ever since. My reason for promoting the MC engines is to make certain that the class survives in a form that will maintain F500s low cost and bring more people to the class.
Last season there were 47 different drivers entered in F500 Nationals and Majors. That means a total of 47 different drivers in the entire USA that entered Nationals and or Majors. It is my opinion that F500 is not very healthy, but I do give the F500 racers a TON OF CREDIT for what they continue to accomplish. I simply think that the class needs some new drivers coming into the class and I hope that the MC engine merger with F500 will do just that.
F500 is a great class and I want it to be here in 10 years.
I am very proud of our involvement in F500 since 1984. we have built over 20 cars for the class and 9 F600s. Our 2 biggest accomplishements were when we personally arranged for the Rotax engine to be made available to the class when the AMW engine deal went south. I personally spoke to the President of Bombardier and convinced him that Rotax should supply engines to F500.
The biggest deal for me personally was when my son won the Runoffs in 2007 with a car we designed, built and developed along with Don Hamilton and his Dad Dennis.
Keep racing your F500 and get your daughter involved when she is ready. The combined class will be waiting for her in your 2 stroke powered F500. 2 strokes and 4 strokes can co-exist in the same class.
Wow, one post and you are taking shots at how I choose to run my forum. Welcome, and thanks for joining. I see you haven't figured out out my personal tongue-in-cheek User Description yet, so I'll help you out a little. I take great pride in how this community is maintained, since day-1, and refuse to let people looking only to cause trouble track mud through our living room. I have little or no patience for adults behaving like children, and I don't ask anyone to leave—they just mysteriously never come back.Quote:
Originally Posted by F500
The muddy foot prints were a mess. It took a while, but they have all been summarily removed from the public view. I have this OCD thing about keeping a clean house. ApexSpeed wasn't the only place to escort that very small group of individuals from the premises, either. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...Quote:
Originally Posted by F500
You (as well as everyone else here) agreed to follow some very simple forum rules here when you registered for ApexSpeed. We take that agreement very seriously. However, we are not in the habit of removing opinions or stifling the expression of ideas in our community. That's not why we built ApexSpeed over 14 years ago. We have absolutely no problem with you expressing differing opinions (I have many that most people here wouldn't agree with)—but this isn't recess, and you have to be an adult about it. Your first post comparing me to Hitler was extraordinarily rude and close to the edge. No, I don't have any tolerance for name-calling. Save the name-calling and personal attacks for elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by F500
We take great pride in the very minuscule number of people banned here on ApexSpeed since 1999. The very few people who couldn't play nice, were escorted and not allowed back. Far less banned users here than most other forums anywhere on the internet.
There is a lot of familiarity in your tone, and anyone that heads over to the other F500 forum will see a lot more of the same. I would prefer to not exclude you from this discussion, so please do consider this your first and only warning to play nice.
dc
I am a potential newcomer. Can you explain why this merger wouldn't be in my interest?Quote:
Originally Posted by SEComposites
I'm a long time F1 fan (I've Been to Monza, Canadian GP and the COTA race last year). I know "the sound" doesn't matter, and I have no problems with 2 strokes buzzing or their smell, but to have a 6 speed sequential gearbox (like the pros) and that high revving F1 like sound would be fantastic.
I had a friend that raced F500 for years, and his stories got me interested in the series. F600 sounds like the progression to me. If I were to go out and start racing and had the choice between F500 and F600, I would choose F600, because the next step would probably be F1000, and so on. If you choose F500 and want to progress, is there a 1000cc snowmobile class out there?
I will say I do not have any SCCA road racing experience and my comments can be taken with a grain of salt, but..... as a newcomer F600 sounds like an awesome place to start.
For the record, the username "F500" was discovered to be Wayne Dixon, again. He just can't keep from calling people names and picking fights with everyone who will engage him. It was a nice touch to call me names, too, as a fictitious puppet account, then run away to never respond. He can go back to his cesspool website of poison and vitriol and call me more names from far away, because that's what people like him and Foamy (George Muggee) do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F five hunj
Hooray for the club. The devil will be in the details, however.
Jim
This is terrific news IMO, so congrats to the Board and the F500/600 community for their decision. I really, REALLY hope this can stimulate some growth for what should be a much more popular class. :thumbsup:
Old timer here.
I think this was the right call. I saw a number of the 600's at Mid Ohio lat week and they all looked well prepared and sounded great. I had the chance to talk to a number of them, many were old friends and the enthusiasm for the class has only increased. It will all work out in the end and I think the competition will only increase to the levels seen in the early 2000's when we had 15-20 guys going for ten spots to gets to the runoffs. It made me a better driver and was ton of fun.
The great things is that is told most people that I would be back in a two stoke car as that is what I know and all were for it. We'll see you at Mid Ohio in 2016 for the runoffs as I will be there.
For the sport,
Jeremy Swank
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim murphy
So what are the details Jim or Jay?
No details yet. For sure we will be running restrictors at a heavier weight than any of the 2 strokes. There may also be a limitation on which engines can be used but I really know no more than anyone else.
This is great news IMO as I think it will help the new class grow.
Leave the rules like they are now and maybe only allow drivetrains older than 2 years, thus the current production drivetrain has to wait 2 years for the next generation (new every two years). What this does is to allow us to check them out to see if there is any unusual advantage. These four bike makers are constantly looking for some small advantage as they all race against each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by allof6
Jim
I don't see any "DEVIL" in that. You made it sound that there was going to be some off the wall engine changes or something. If that's what they do than its not a bad thing and they are least doing some rules definition the beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim murphy
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by allof6
This is what I am hoping for - the Devil is the unknown at this time.
Jim
When will we know?
November Fast track will be the updated rules.
http://www.scca.com/clubracing/news.cfm?cid=51653
Now let's focus on racing.
Huskamp
Thanks Chris!
I sure hope the designers for this class don't optimize for a heavy car. I hate to see weight strapped to a car to equalize them down to some old car that is down on power. I understand it, but I just think a light car is so much more fun to drive. In other words, there will be a time when the 494 and older engines are not around much like the 440's, but the 600s (two and four stroke) will still be lugging around led, but when people say let's drop the weight we can't because a good designer would have built the weight into the car in the best way possible. I know we put a thick steel pan on our karts and cars, so that is easy to drop. I hope others do the same. :) Us short people have long since gotten used to adding weight to our rides. ;)
Congrats to all and I hope to join you all in 3-5 years with a 600(four).
i believe if we stick with the current rules that are being run right now, things will be slightly unequal to the two strokes advantage especially when someone has the 593. Most of us running mc motors have seen this first hand this year.
And some the two-stroke owners are equally adamant the four-strokes will make their current cars immediately obsolete, so the real answer falls somewhere in between.
This is not unlike the introduction of the Honda into FF or the Zetec into FC - somebody somewhere will feel their opinions are not being listened to.
I think that the M/C engines being controlled by individual spec lines in the rules is the difference that came out of the feedback on the proposal. Now its unlikely to be the engine of the year. My biggest heartburn with the original proposal was controlling the M/C horsepower arms race and this seems like a tidy way to do it. These controls certainly overcame my reluctance to merge the two classes this year
If it works out equitably amongst the F600 runners maybe it will be a template for future F1000 engine rules.
Phil Creighton
Area 12 Director
As long as we don't end up with ONE specified engine like the Two stroke folks have suffered with for all these many years. Allowing only MC's 2 years or older on a rolling basis will allow all to find out if anything sneaky has shown up in one bike maker's 600. So far over the years all four makers are pretty equal and the IIR's will make them equal. One MC engine builder says that the only technology not employed by the bike makers is direct injection and he does not think that will happen because there is no room in the cylinder head of a 600 to fit it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Creighton
AND the older the bike motors age the cheaper they get - this is a good thing.
Jim
Do the motorcycle manufacturers sell 2011 spec engines? Or is the only way to get one from the used market?
One nice thing about allowing new engines, is that you know the complete history of the engine and don't have to worry about some idiot riding it at 120mph doing a wheelie and starving the engine of oil, ect. (in some cases)
None of the MC makers that I know of sell a crate engine. Your only option is to buy used or the occasional parted out new bike. As long as you get the engine from a reputable supplier, a used engine isn't an issue.
Find a brand new bike thats a good price and part out everything else. I did that with a GSXR 1000 and if l had sold the motor i would have made money as crazy as that sounds.
I did not know that. I just did some searching and it appears you are right. I read you can get them from Europe possibly, but shipping probably costs a ton.Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer360
I've never suffered with the specific engine rules in F500, just enjoyed the low cost and rules stability. Never had any problems sourcing used engines. Even bought several 494s and 493s new. Conversions from 494 to 493 to 593 were cheap and simple - they even share the same mounting pattern. Maybe you are referring to something that happened before I joined the class in 1995.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim murphy
Cory
The thing I like about the inclusion of an engine on a spec line rather than a rolling two years old addition is that it will lead to a greater degree of stability and make it easier for the committee to ensure parity. It was my greatest concern with the criticisms brought up by the feedback. This way they can delay or not allow an overdog - if you think they can't get that much improvement ask the F1000 guys about the 14000 rpm BMW engines. Its amazing the constant HP advances in M/C engines
Phil
Refering to them going out of production too soon over the years since 1982.Quote:
Originally Posted by cory mcleod
Every engine change required T'n'T'ing all over again to get the correct pipe, gearing and clutching. Time and money consuming too often. Many mandays were spent at my "secret test site" running the car over and over making changes to see what happens. I still remember two of us spending hours under a 10x10 portacover with a lap top connected to the data logger in the car on a hot day. It paid off with my car winning two solo national championships and Clint running up front when he was in F500 (several podiums at the runoffs). This is nothing new as this is what Q told us to do back in the 1980's if you want to run up front.
Jim
I need to be sure I understand this, are there plans to have only one engine manufacture in the rules or will the rules allow for different manufactures and year models? On a seperate comment, I wouldnt mind seeing motors limited to a five year hold meaning the newest motor allowed for the 2014 season would be the 2009 models. The newest motor in the class to my knowledge is a 2009 gsxr .I currently have a 06-07 gsxr in two of the cars and a 03 cbr in the other. All three are dead equal in a straight line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clint
I know of a KAW and Yammi car being built in the midwest as well. This will suck if they go down that road and have to change. Wait till the 20th to find out I guess as no one wants to say anything.
I believe all the current engines will be accounted for on an individual spec line for each one. It was not the intent to exclude any current engine but to put in place the ability to keep the latest and greatest under control for the future. If you have an engine that is a little off mainstream it would probably be good to let the committee know in case it gets missed. An 03 CBR would be just such an engine!!!
The actual engine spec lines may not be done by the 20th Fastrack as there was only just an agreement in principle at the weekend - that's why I'm answering as many questions on this as I can.
Phil
I would like a kawi run. It would be fun to see how they compare.
It was the first F600 on the track, I dont know how it was over looked as most of the comparisons was done with it and a 06-07 gsxr. The 03 cbr is the same as the 04 and 05 cbr. What needs to be done to insure that someone currently running a motor is not left out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Creighton
To be quite honest with you the rules are pretty limited as it keeps you on the 4 jap makers. limit it to the -4 and older and it will cover items that the F1000 didn't plan for.
You wont have the exotics like the aprilia or ducs as most of them are over 600cc anyways.
No reason this has to get complicated.
Clint
Contact the Formula/Sportsracer committee.
phil
I agree as this was the origional intent to have the class as affordable as possible and to keep it as simple as possible. I also strongly agree to having the flexibility of being able to adjust motors on a case by case basis. I believe if a new "hot" motor comes into play that it will be obvious as everyone knows how close cars are currently in a straight line. Theres always going to be differences between the areo of the cars but thats true in any class. I like having a 03 honda thats comptetive with a 09 gsxr:D It makes for good racing and it seperates people that can drive the turns rather than just being fast in a straight line.Quote:
Originally Posted by allof6
Yes - lots of testing, data analysis, dyno work (and the associated $$) are required to win the Runoffs or Solo Nationals. How is that a result of having a short list of legal engines?Quote:
Originally Posted by jim murphy