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If I remember it says you have to pad the part that your head could come in contact with. Norm Marx used to have a Crossle FF with a full roll cage (can be seen in the now infamous Bridgehampton Youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQDSmvPbcKE 11:12). Unlike a closed car where you can pad a roll hoop to your hearts delight, if we have to now put padding on an entire cage it will discourage its adoption.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Pare
ChrisZ
I leaned a couple of tubes in about that position in the garage and can't imagine it blocking a race view. Looks good.
Quality discussion guys.:thumbsup:
After the Dan Wheldon accident I thought that maybe there would be more revolution at least talked about in OW drivers' head protection. I thought maybe the days were numbered when a helmet is part of the car's silohuette. In many ways the short trackers are ahead of us--those full roll cages offer real protection. It wasn't popular at first. Cages on sprinters, midgets, champ dirt cars, and supers were considered ugly, unmanly, and invitations for recklessness. But you know, USAC stopped killing a driver a week.
I envisioned something a lot like Stephen is working on. I really think that to make a measureable move foward in formula car safety this sort of thing should happen, along with canopies in the upper levels. Perhaps if a spec class implements this, so no performance penalty is involved, it might get the ball rolling.
This doesn't change my desire to race, and I will always accept the risk of strapping on a car every day that I do it. But I hope that improvement in this area never stalls.
Stephen,
is that your 'primary' racer or something else you have in the works? It clearly starts to address the real issue the rest of us are worried about, but not addressing. When it comes time to pad those bars you should cut the FIA/SFI padding so that the padding is narrow enough to appear the same width as the bars to your eyes and still be interposed between any allowed helmet trajectory and the bars. You could even make the padding taper from full width at the bars to something a bit smaller at the point where the helmet will contact. Spray Glue and tape or tie wraps and you are good to go
Cheers
Steve
Chris, you may not have to pad every square inch, if you look at the ISP Top Fuel solution: http://ispseats.com/id125.html The only addition beyond the "standard" horse-collar type surround would be a top pad directly overhead. Though I would make it lower profile.
I really looked at a sprint car cage, but ugliness aside, I was worried about the mounting base being narrower than the top of the cage, and the inability to sufficiently triangulate it. Those tall front bars have lots of leverage on the chassis mounting points.
Long time no see Steve! The "stick-on" padding you describe is exactly what I was thinking of. It won't present it's full width to the wind, being at a 45? angle or more.
I still have my RF78, this is a beat-up RF80 frame I bought and repaired. It will be my primary if I ever get it finished!
On a related note, I was also looking at FIA-8860 spec helmets, but $3500 is out of my price range. Though Sparco seems to have one for $1200 I'll look into.
I would like to see how these helmet collars are installed. They must be easy removed I would guess.
Eric
Working with "experts" such as Eric Langbien and Fred Clark, I modified my Reynard rollhoop with forward facing bars that can also act as side head restraints (with the FIA padding installed). They are slightly behind the eyeport on my Bell helmet, so no restriction in sight lines.
Also you can see the matrix of side impact bars i added below the top side rail.
That looks pretty sensible.
Ralt RT40 modified cockpit opening
I'm just seeing this thread for the first time, and spoke with purple frog by email, but you guys should really consider doing this!
I did go back to Lime Rock a few months ago to personally thank all the first track workers. My head DID contact the huge tire wall designed to withstand a heavy Busch grand north car. My car only weighing 1100 lbs with me in it, didn't fair so well. The grid worker who was there first, told me that she had somebody spray down the wall to remove the paint left by my helmet when it made contact with the wall, because it was a constant reminder of my crash to all the workers. I was driving a Swift DB3, which the frog is 100% right saying Those cars need some attention. I made contact with the wall around 90 mph, and the damage done wasn't very bad to the car at all (Sadly it was a lot worse for me). I've seen cars wrecked 10 times worse, and seen the driver walk away. My head hit the tire wall to not only chiped the custom paint job, but crack my helmet. It wasn't cracked nearly as bad as John's helmet, but my injury was a lot worse. I'm still in my recovery mode, as I'm still unable to drive a street car, or return to work because of my double vision problems. I will need eye surgery in the next few month to repair it. The eye surgeon told me that neither of my eyes are straight right now, because I hit my head hard enough to make my "eyes spin in my head". He said that they didn't completely spin around, but there both off by a few millimeters.
Anyway, I've had to relearn just about everything that most people wouldn't think twice about doing. I had to relearn how to walk (still can't run or jog) right down to taking a leak. It's a strange feeling knowing you have to pee and standing in front of the toilet, and nothing happens. I just would stand there and stare at my dick saying come on and work already (it's works fine again LOL) My life was totally flipped upside down from my injuries that I'm about 85% recovered from. I had a great job, living my dream of racing, lived on my own, and could drive a damn street car, all those things are gone at the moment.
After losing just about everything, I'm thankful to even be alive. The lady that was at my wreck first said I wasn't even breathing when they pulled me out of the car, so they thought I wasn't gonna make it in the long run. The doctors even pulled both of my parents aside in a room, and told them that I may never wake up let alone live, so they shouldn't get their hopes up. I went back to the hospital in NY to thank all of them, and the doctors all came out to shake my hand, one doctor said that my recovery "is beyond words". When I went to the eye surgeon first, a lady nurse (I think) came to do the first tests, and walked into the room looking at me and shaking her head. I asked her what, and she said that she couldn't believe I was even there after she reviewed my MRI and saw the amount of brain damage I had. She told me that she's seen half as much brain damage on others and they can't even walk or talk, so the fact that I was having vision problems wasn't a big deal in a way. I truly think that my uncle (who I was racing that race for that recently died of brain cancer, and I had a sticker made up RIP uncle Danny and put it on my car) and my grandfather who died about a year before, told me I wasn't welcome and pushed me out of heaven.
Having said all of that, I still have a huge desire to race. My parents were against it at first, but I've worn them down. If I can find another good paying job, then I'll start saving for another car again and more gear. I told my parents given my massive brain injury (The doctor said those exact words) that I still want to race, and that I'm a slow learner haha. IMO, if I do die racing, if I can afford to return, then I'll die with no regrets and that I'll die doing what I love!
I hate that this injury happened, but I hope I'm a reason for all of you to become safer so you don't have to go through all of this. I will personally find the purple frog to shake his hand and thank him for bringing this topic to everyone's attention.
Sorry for writing this much and taking up your time to reed this, this is the short version.
Brian
Brian,
Thanks for the update on your accident and recovery. I followed the thread about you following the accident and it was a great relief when you were finally able to post on it yourself. It is GREAT to hear that you are making progress with a good attitude and goals. I worry about things like that happening to me too.. especially as I was spinning towards the concrete wall (NO TIRES) at Atlanta a few weeks ago (also at about 90 MPH). It is a staunch reminder that things DO happen and we all need to do our best to control what we can going forward. Fortunately, in my case, it was the CAR that took most of the damage.
We all wish you the best in the future and I certainly hope that you regain the ABILITY to race again regardless of whether it actually happens or not.
Steve, FV80
Brian ! Glad to hear you're on the mend. As for the brain damage, many would suggest that's a pre-existing condition :) Racers understand the desire to race, no matter the risk. Non-racers simply can not... Keep smiling, don't listen to the nay-sayers. Keep astounding them with your progress ! In the meantime, some sim racing will help satisfy that need-for-speed & help your 'motor' skills ;)
my noggin' added to the batch.... incl. new fangled dual density padding - i highly recommend if your rattling around anywhere near the bars..
Guys, everybody that did, thanks for pulling for me.
Once I 'm able to drive a street car again and start working, I won't just buy another race car. I plan on doing some of the Skip Barber Racing School again before buying another car and more safety gear, to see if I still have the same reactions. If everything goes well, I fully plan on returning to racing if I've got the money.
I should point out that Lime Rock DID make some changes to where I crashed. I only say this because I read in my injury thread, that the track should install a safer barrier. They installed another tire wall in front of where I hit, and they put it a few feet in front of the wall I hit. They put it in front to give the wall room to move and take the impact, instead of the tires being right against the concrete like where I hit.
Brian
Hey Brian ! I know, first hand, how important your Faith, Desire & Attitude is to your recovery. Having survived many "you'll never _________ again" & "No, there is nothing you can do" diagnoses from many doctors over the years I can say, " Keep your eyes on the goal & you'll get there ! "
Radical Racing offers this head retraint, very universal looks like it would be great for a sportracer.
Eric
Good info
If your Jay Novak you make your own!:p
http://baldspotsports.com/products/headrest.html Perfect for the newer VD's and I am sure they can make something for most any car. No they arent cheap but.......
Any ideas about how to attach one of these to a DB-1 and have it do some good?
I'll apologize in advance for bumping an old thread, but it seemed relevant, especially as a lot of this discussion is to how to assemble something to existing cars. I found this photo of Lotus's F1 car with head surround up on the UK Daily Mail's site. Designing something like this with a hinged tube, padded surround, and some 3M dual lock Velcro shouldn't be rocket science, would add to safety and ne easy to get out from.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...76_634x341.jpg
From The Daily Mail
I've also been looking for details from F1 footage. Some teams use a 1/4-turn fastener at the front, others seem to have some sort of snap-in stud. They don't seem to use velcro, just 2 pins in the back, and some with additional guide pins in the side, in addition to the "latch".
Works for F1 where the corner workers can presumably work with each team before the race and know the systems. For a club race I don't want a corner worker having to figure out how to get me out of a burning car. To my mind something like a velcro attachment point and an obvious handle would be reassuring. The dual lock velcro is pretty tenacious stuff, you're not going to pop the panel free in a bumpy section, but could likely get out without problem.
Or maybe there's an FIA spec that would provide a good starting point.
I was thinking about these with a small red strap:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...asp?RecID=4660
Maybe a 3-4" sticker saying "pull here" or "push here" with an arrow point to the attachment point would help safety crews know how to get you out. FA's use a cotter pin. I think a cotter pin or a 1/4 turn would be the easiest fasteners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen wilson
If there is any load on them they are near impossible to unlatch. My car uses them in several places to hold bodywork. Just the ordinary misalignment tension from that will cause the need to have to use a big dowel rod (wood) to get enough force to pop them loose.
Not the item to use if you want it to be quick release.
Just curious, on the FAs, do you need a second person to get out or are the cotter pins accessible from inside the cockpit?
The cotter pins had a wire strap on it going to the stationary pin. So the slack in the strap allows the driver to pull the pin and exit the car quickly and prevent the cotter pin from being lost. I hope this makes sense. I'm not at a computer to post a picture sorry
Actually working with Bald Spot and Jeff Horton one of the engineers for safety stuff with IndyCar for a piece for Citations.
Made out of the same multiple hit foam they use in IndyCar seats.
It's probably going to be about the same price as the fiberglass ones we use now.
So not all that much. Beside whats cheaper $300-500 dollars or a hospital bill for a concussion or cervical spine fracture that you won't walk away from.
Same for your head when spending money on a good helmet.
Very good discussion.
Here's one of our head surrounds for the 2014 Phoenix F1000. We used FIA / SFI approved foam. Built in the same manor as an F1 surround. Easy to remove and doesn't weigh much. Covered with Kevlar and a special resin specific to this use.
Thanks for the heads up, I wasn't aware of that issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
Gary,
Could you show details of your mounting, alignment pins and retaining hardware?
I'm just wondering if a bolster shouldn't be totally flexible & attached with Velcro only for ease of removal when the car is not sitting in the upright position. Maybe even constructed in more than one section to aid in quick removal. Good quality Velcro definitely will hold it in place.
I don't think you want it totally flexible, you want it somewhat limiting in motion effective at absorbing energy. Also, you want something that won't bounce you back out like some of the more flexible materials would. Much like helmets, seats, etc. And you want it robust (part of why they're glassed over) so that they last more than a race or two.
I am planning on building a head surround for the Stohr. I am using a couple of simple square edge / corner connectors at the two back corners, and a pair of wedge connectors at the front corners. The air stream forces at speed, trying to remove the head surrond from the body work/ frame are mostly up. With the double lips from the two corners at the back the head restraint and body will stay together. With the double wedge at the front I should be able to pull the head restraint forward. That will release the rear corners and allow me to remove it over my head. Comments, criticisms and condemnations will be considered. I would really like to see Gary's attachment system.
What I mean by flexible is, not totally rigid. I needs to be able to bend or fold enough to be moved out of the way by the driver if the car is rubber side up & he would prefer to exit the vehicle before help arrives. Not much room to work in there with the roll bar dug in the dirt & your head against the ground. Been there, done that, got a T shirt. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff
An idea I have been playing with for DB-series cars. The side pieces are so close to the helmet I can barely turn, so they can't really be much thicker than a half inch [2-3 pieces of cardboard thick] It could be made integral to the hoop cover, but you'd need a different way of attaching the hoop cover to make it easier to remove [and this option negates removal in an over-turned car, so really, not a great option]. Any other ideas?
Jim,
IMHO, your "bolsters" are too far forward. One of the goals of this sort of "advancement" is to make sure that it doesn't make your racing MORE dangerous than it already was. Blocking side view is NOT a good thing. It doesn't take much to grab a glimpse of a WHEEL beside you ... if you can SEE it. If your view to at least 90 degrees both sides is blocked, that does not seem to be a good idea to me. Maybe the camera perspective is off, but you could have someone crouch beside you and 'ease up' to the point where you can see them and see where that is...
You can pick up substantial improvement in side 'bounce' protection without going past the helmet centerline (fore/aft). Going beyond that would improve the 'bounce' situation .. but at what cost ??
Just another consideration.
Agreed. Too much too far forward.
I agree, but I mistakenly showed the wrong picture. I cut the side back an inch or so after I shot this picture. The question is really, will something that thin [CF? Tegris? Fiberglass?] be adequate to achive the goal, and how to attach it where it can be removed easily
Jim,. do not use carbon fibre. It may fracture and splinter in a crash, embedding cf strands in the drivers shoulders, neck etc. You should consider using kevlar...a much better choice as kevlar has a much higher resistance to fracture; if the panel made of kevlar is impact damaged it will not tear or fracture like carbon will. That is why it the material of choice in intrusion panels. I would not recommend "pure" cf in any cockpit panels unless as part of a composite structure (tub). My side bolsters are high-density closed cell material covered in two layers of 4 oz kevlar, painted to match the bodywork.
Be sure not to build any structure that could act as a fulcrum in side impacts, where a support could act as a force multiplier in side motion.
Best, Tom
Seems to me you need to rethink the 'lines' of the whole project. F1 cars do not use high cockpit surround like that. Want to give drivers as much side view as they can safely give.
On the other hand you're headed more in the direction of Indy cars. They have higher more 'view blocking surrounds then I care for. But notice the way they slope up from the front cockpit and allow a smoother air flow. Air flow control rather then safety seems to be the real purpose of this design.
Seems like the big thing is that new cars were designed from the git go to accommodate head bolsters or whatever. Structure in the right place to have something to attach to without creating huge blind spots.
I previous posted a photo of the head restraint offered by Radical Racing. It is a very universal piece and could be used in formula car or sport racer. I hunted one down and had it shipped from the UK. The cost was $750.00 plus shipping and duty. I don't need it and will part with it for $700.00. Best Eric/esakuma@aol.com
old thread but thought it good to link to other thread
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61619