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McMaster-Carr
Search for "button head flange cap screws." Material steel, black oxide finish. The range of lengths is limited, though, to 1". And they will rust if not maintained. They have them in SS, but, IIRC, they were not hard enough.
The nuts I used are grade c lock nuts (distorted thread hex lock nuts). They are available with or without flange.
Many months later, I finally assembled a full set of four for FF. Many thanks for the posters who offered good suggestions in this thread and others.
Great work Russ, they look great!
I agree ............. see my labors on twelve just finished this past weekend -- and stilll looking for some "215s" centers if available.
Nice work EJ they look great too.
I had a few sets I needed to strip. I bought a plastic feed tray at Farm and Fleet, Round and deep enough to fit a wheel center. Then I soaked them in acetone for a few days each. I covered the pan so the acetone didn't evaporate or cause my brain to rot further. Once I soaked them for a few days the paint came right off. Maybe a slight scrub with a nylon brush. If your wheels have the original paint it will come off easily.
After you store the acetone in the original can for a few days most of the paint sediment sinks to the bottom and you can use it for the next wheel.
No abrasives, no hassle and acetone soaked metal is ready to paint.
BJ told me laquer paint but I just used krylon spray cans. A thin coat to avoid obscuring cracks.
A real headache to put them together without leaks. BJ also told me a thin coat of 832 on the mating surfaces. I have had pretty good luck doing it that way. Yes it makes a mess of the bolts but once the silicone squishes out to the center section you can smooth it with your finger and form a good seal.
BJ also told me 12 Lb/Ft for my 1/4 inch bolts.
Finally, he told me that the 202's and most of the old wheels had more than enough hardware. Apparently similar wheels have been made with 6 bolts and worked fine so the bolts and number of fasteners are not an area for concern in terms if a hardware failure.
John
Does anyone know of a media other than Soda that can be Safely used to clean wheel centers for NDT? I was considering buying one of the $200 blast cabinets from harbor Freight, and doing it myself, but it appears you need a Soda conversion kit to blast with Soda, and this is only offered with the more expensive blast cabinets. ---Jim
walnut shells?
For a detailed, sometimes opinionated, sometimes self agrandizing, sometimes informative forum [No, not the Kent vs Fit thread] about soda blasting, see below. Sounds like plastic bead is an equivalent, non volatile, not a threat to lungs, but more expensive media C/W soda.----Jim
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/soda...-128088-5.html
My Hyashi wheels [ also shown in the post above ] are giving me problems. I removed the nuts, but the bolds won't come out, or even turn. I am bending a 5 mm metric allen wrench, and they won't break loose. I 'gently' tried hammer therapy without effect. The nuts look like they have loctite or some other sealant on them. I suspect I need to heat the wheels to 500 degrees, as loctite suggest to break loose loctite red. As my wife isn't going to loan me the oven, the only way I have to accomplish this is a propane torch. Does anyone know if this will harm the wheel or make it unsafe? Any better ideas?---Jim
First determine whether they are ally or mag. Makes a big difference.
500 degrees sounds a bit excessive, at least initially. Even 200-250 degrees F will soften the Loctite a lot. A heat gun can locally heat the bolt enough to soften Loctite. Also, a good penetrating oil will help to loosen the bolts and maybe make them possible to be removed. Have you tried an impact driver (the ones that twist the bolt when you hit the driver on the end with a hammer)?Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
WD-40, heat, impact wrenches. Nothing has done anything but strip the allen heads. Next idea is NDT on the wheel as it is assembled. Not ideal, but probably helpful. Any other ideas / thoughts?---Jim
Have you tried to hit the thread end of the bolts with a hammer, or hammer with pin punch? Heat to expand the Aluminum/Mag in combination with hitting the thread ends could work. It is not likely they are threaded into the wheel material. You may have to destroy the bolts to get them out - they are likely corroded in place from years of use.
I used an old 1/2 inch extension and a sledge hammer, but I imagine I can be a bit more aggressive than I have been. I considered drilling them out, but there are a bunch of them [48 I think.] I originally thought it was loctite, but the nuts came off easy enough, so I guess you are right. Ccorrosion is probably the culprit. pretty impressive corrosion, though. I think I could race the wheel without the nuts!I'll give it another shot. Thanks for the suggestions.---Jim
Can you mount a tire (maybe a relatively wide street tire that will "want to spread")and CAREFULLY apply air pressure to help spread the inner rim away from the center and outer rim? I assume for your wheels that both rims are on the inside of the center. Mine straddle the center. If you go the bigger hammer approach I would sure be careful to support the center around the bolt being hammered. ;)
Dick
Hyashi welded the wheel halves together [And the bolts in place, apparently] I've beat on it as much as I dare. If I break a wheel, I have no spares. I'm going to strip the paint with Jabsco, and see if they can xray and dye pen the center in-place. Thanks for the ideas.---Jim
IMO, it's not possible that the steel bolts could be welded to the aluminum/mag rims/centers. And, it's unlikely that anything but corrosion on/around the bolts is holding the rims to the centers, especially if the rim halves are welded to each other. There may be some differential thermal expansion adding to the difficulty, especially if the rim halves were welded together in place. You may have to drill out the bolts. If this is necessary, you might be able to make a drill-guide to screw onto the threads so that the drill-bit is centered on the bolts while you drill them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
That must be some severe corrosion! If it were me, I would not want to run these until they can be disassembled for inspection and, probably, bolt/nut replacement.
I just had another thought - how about a press to push on the thread-ends of the bolts while supporting the opposite side with a socket or something that supports the wheel while clearing the bolt heads?
Yet another thought - from hard hex stock, make a blind-end nut that contacts the thread ends before tightening on the rim half. Then you can try to start screwing out the bolts by turning these blind nuts.
Dave, I was just kidding about the welding. I like the blind nut idea, though. Come to think of it, it kind of sounds like me.
Thanks,
Jim.
HAHA... blind nut - in some cases I've fitted that description...:D
I thought of a better way to make this:
1. Get some pre-hardened hex steel (4140, 4340, etc.) and cut off a section ~1" long
2. Drill the tap size drill all the way through
3. Tap the hole all the way through to the thread size of the stuck bolts
4. Get a hard (GR8) bolt and a hardened nut, same thread
5. Thread the hex onto one of the stuck bolts, but not all the way to the wheel
6. Thread the hardened nut (to be used as a jam nut) onto the GR8 bolt
7. Thread this into the hex until it bottoms on the stuck bolt
8. Lock the jam nut firmly
9. Turn the hex (or maybe both the hex and the hardened bolt at the same time) until something happens.
This is easier to make than a bottomed out thread, and less likely to strip or jam together.
Maybe this was already tried, but what happens when you put the nut back on the stuck bolt (screwed on enough to be flush with the end of the threads), then whack the nu? And/Or, using a press in a similar fashion (after whacking and penetrating oil to loosen)?
Maybe a combination of your and my ideas would work... Hit or press on the end of the ass'y I described - this would be less likely to strip the threads...Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
I was kinda thinking the threads were not worth trying to save. I'm assuming all new fasteners will be used when reassembling. In other words, go ahead and smack the crap out of the bolts/nuts. :-).
I agree with not re-using, but I was thinking of a better chance of getting them out (part of the impact load is transferred to the thread end, and the thread end doesn't get directly hammered, so maybe easier to get the hex off than the nut) before the thread end of the bolt stripped/flattened and made it worse to get out.Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
I think I have figured out why I'm having trouble. I managed to get one of the bolts out. See below.---Jim
Then pressing them out is the solutionQuote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
Pressing does indeed seem to be the solution. 12 tons of hydraulic pressure beats a sledge hammer. Next question; Is it necessary to reassemble with press-fit bolts, or would standard bolts as used in my 215s work safely? Anyone have an opinion?---Jim
PS; The down side is, I have no way of telling when the bolt bottoms out. They are in a hole. The press ram obscures the top, and the support piece prevents measuring from the bottom. I surely can't snug them down with the nut, considering the pressure required to insert them. It would seem the likelyhood of going too far and cracking a center would be high.
It is probably not necessary to use the splined bolts, as long as the substitute bolts fit tightly and locate the components properly. A loose fit would allow possible runout. The splined bolts were probably used to speed up the assembly process by keeping the bolts from turning while tightening the nuts from the rear.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
Also, I would bet that the splined bolts originally were pulled tight using only the nuts to pull them in. Otherwise, in this application, I see little advantage to using them. Pressing each one in individually would have been a tedious process.
Without a close inspection my gut reaction would be to ream the spline grooves away and eliminate the stress risers created by those splines.
That would require using a larger bolt however which may not be feasible with the counter sunk head.
Jonathan
I used Jabsco paint stripper on my wheels. The Hayashis did great. The 215s showed no effect at all. Not a ripple. Then I used acrylic bead blasting. Again, the Hayashis are ready for NDT, but there was no effect on the 215s. I think perhaps the 215s were not painted, but maybe given the chromate conversion treatment. This is a guess, as I have never even seen this used, but it would explain the lack of results.
So, the options I see are;
1] NDT as they are, assuming the treatment is bonded to the metal and won't affect the results.
2] use glass bead or some other more aggressive media and try blasting again.
3} Insert your idea here.
Question 2;
The Hayashis have distinct grooves left from the splined bolts. I have had no luck tracking down a source for thse bolts [ see picture in post 76 above ] Placing smaller bolts [3/16 may fit, posibly smaller required] seems reasonable, but leaves the problem of the grooves acting as stress risers. How big of a risk is this? Is it worth the expence of having a machine shop ream the hole, then finding a shoulder bolt to fit [if I even can?] Or should I just resign myself to having really nice looking trailer wheels and part with the cash for panasports.
Thanks for your ideas,
Jim
I would just NDT as they are - it will still detect any cracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
I would drill out to #10 or 1/4" if necessary and use #10 or 1/4" bolts, depending on the original hole size. The area the spline grooves are in is not a highly-stressed area, so any groove remnants will not be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
Remember that they originally had the spline grooves, and the bolts were a tight fit, so the stress there was higher as they were originally assembled.
Don't use shoulder bolts - they are not good for clamping (in tension they will be subject to fatigue at the reduced cross-section at the end of the shoulder), and clamping is what you want the bolts to do in this application. Also, shoulder bolts are a VERY tight fit if the holes are reamed, and you would likely find that the tolerances on the bolt locations would not allow the wheels to be reassembled..Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
[FONT=Verdana]To get the facts organized, I've redone EJ's original post with what I think are the answers given in the thread.
The final "truth" when it comes to the process and material(s) to be used to refurbish and re-coat racing wheels. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]
Remove the centers from the rims –
Strip off paint, using " JABSCO PREMIUM or AIRCRAFT stripper, someone soaked theirs in ACETONE[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Get them "blasted" by "SODA. I used ACRYLIC, However, EJ used sand at low [35PSI] pressure [ prior recommendation was NOT sand or glass]). [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]
Then to crack testing or x-rayed at a NDT* Service- OR AT HOME[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]
Paint them with " DP90 and EPOXY [some disagree on the epoxy] or RUSTOLEUM or use ALODINE. Carol Smith apparently says LACQUER ONLY.
Then CLEAR COAT for ease of maintenance , NO POWDER COATING. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]
Afterwards, re-assemble with new Allen’s and metal locking nut (w/ Loc-Tite). [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]
SEAL with Dow Corning Silicone Adhesives/Sealant 832 on the crease AFTER the wheel is assembled ONLY[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]
Hardware: button head flange cap screws in steel with black oxide coating. [NOT stainless due to weakness concerns ] and Grade C lock nuts.[/FONT]
Good summary. I only differ in one respect - I would not use Loctite. Using it will make it difficult if you ever want to check for "tightness," and metal (Grade C) lock-nuts won't come loose by themselves, anyway. If you use other nuts (Nylocs, plain nuts, etc.) then Loctite may be necessary, because those COULD come loose, but the Loctite will still defeat tightness checking.
In my experience, however, once the wheels are assembled as above with metal lock nuts, I have NEVER had one where the fasteners were loose when I checked, even years later, even after severely damaging a rim half. And this is without Loctite.
the wheels I re-restored worked PERFECT -- Jason put narrow bead of the 832 after assembly and the wheels held pressure -- Before I entered this reply I went to the trailer and measured the tires from the Sebring and Homestead Nat'ls the pressure were still equal (+- 1/4 lbs) on the fronts and then the rears for each set -- alot of work BUT work rewarded.
EJ
Fastenall has "grade 12" bolts built to ASTM A574 and ANSI-B18.3. Anyone know if these are adequate quality for wheel re-assembly?---Jim
I forgot to mention, they are metric, hence the 'grade 12' designation.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Bolt quality for wheel re-assembly
Fastenall has "grade 12" bolts built to ASTM A574 and ANSI-B18.3. Anyone know if these are adequate quality for wheel re-assembly?---Jim
I forgot to mention, they are metric, hence the 'grade 12' designation.
I'm no expert, so you can ignore this post, but I've got to think other things are going to bend/break long before you'd have a bolt failure.
Russ is correct. I've seen wheels from wrecked cars that had the rims torn to pieces & none of the bolts had failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
Bolt and nut failure is NOT a true concern provide you use top quality/grade - preventing same from coming loose and leaking (or worse) was mine.
If you look at DW's pic of his wheels in this thread he skipped very other bolt/nut for weight ! The wheel that broke on Jason had ALL the bolts still attached and tight. I believe I used the following (BOLD) from McMaster Carr
Oval Lock with Flange - Black-Phosphate Grade G Steel
1/4"-20 7/16" 9/32" 35/64" 0.06" per 100 p# 90949A016 (Course)
1/4"-28 7/16" 9/32" 35/64" 0.06" per 100 p# 90949A018 (Fine)
I torqued in sequence in three (s) steps - finger tight - then very snug w/ torque and final torque using an inch pound torque wrench.
Make sure you check clearance to the brake caliper ......
EJ
Thanks for the replies, guys. EJ, did the box refer to any ASTM standards? Do you know what they mean? I have no way to evaluate brittleness or strength on the Metrics for the Hayashis. I agree, it seems unlikely that any bolt built to reasonable standards and good quality would be likely to fail, but standards only mean something if you understand them. I don't speak engineering. I might be buying something that has a big flag on it saying, "strong in tesion, brittle in shear." I guess we will 'test' them come spring.---Jim