Spec Car info

I like it. The shocks, suck. But so what. I have spent $1200 in track rental just to get a set of shocks setup for 1 track. Have spent money for new shims/pistons/dyno.
For what? A Formula Ford career? No, to try and keep up. TOTAL WASTE OF MONEY. Even spec shocks have to be developed. Give me some non-adjustable rubber bands, I dont care. I want an race car. I do not want to race cars for a living. I want to spend 1 night a week maintaining it and 1 or 2 days racing it. That is why my Ford is gone. Great car, pain in the ass. With a family and 10-12 hour days, who has that much time.

Take the spec racer off the side and I would feel better about it.

All in All...get behind me because I am next in line.

[size="1"][ September 24, 2002, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: JoeTovo ][/size]

I have to admit - It looks really cool!

Joe you are a Spec car guy I guess but you should understand what this kind of car does to fellow competitors and members.By the way racing of any kind takes dedication and diligence even a Spec Car.This car will not be good for SCCA racers save for a small percentage of members.The dilution of the sport only gets worse,track time gets more expensive and we all pay for it.The problems we have in SCCA are more inportant than Enterprises having some new sh-tbox to sell.How many workers do we have to work our races to help make it as safe as possible and where are our new crop of workers coming from ?How do we deal with the escalating costs of track rental,insurance and
racing costs in general?I guess diluting the sport with another spec car that there was no bidding process on. American manufacturers were not allowed to compete.The whole process is tainted.No bidding,no regional class status to become a National class just rubber stamp it through so Enterprises get a chance to screw something else up.We as members should be outraged.We should have a say in such a huge undertaking.I personally am disappointed with Joanne Jensen.I expected she would have more insight than to allow the process to be circumvented this way but it appears none of the directors asked any of their constituants what they thought.At the comp board meeting there were very few people that were not vehemently against it.I hope the people that are against this yell as loudly as they can.Maybe it will do some good.I am not against spec cars but I am against socialized racing and unfairness without the correct process.This is wrong!

Mike, I cannot rebuttle all of your points, but I will on some.
I am not the minority in SCCA Racing. I am the majority. You are the minority.

I am 29 years old and have been in SCCA since I was 18. I have raced SRF and loved it. Went to FF because I had the money. I found out that it is just as much fun as the SRF, just more money and more work.

Now, not all of us own prep shops and work on race cars for a living. I get up for work at 0500 and get home at 1900. I spend 1 hour with my son before he goes to bed. Hang out with the wife, discuss life and bills. Watch some TV or read a book, go to bed between 10 and 11.

Now, how in the hell did I run a Runoffs effort while I was doing that? Worked on the car in the morning, went to work at 0800 and left at 1700. Got home, worked on the car and ate with my family. Then worked on the car. This was between weekends that were back to back races. Then I missed work. That style played hell with my family life and work.

My goal, a nice easy car that is not a FM or a SRF. Why, they are not cool looking. This car is. It is pushrod, good gear box (ONLY 1 set of GEARS...NEED I SAY MORE?) and should be fun.

With this package, I do not need to worry about shocks and gears and other crap. My spec racer was geat in that way.

It is about time Mike, not "real racing" and the American businessman. I respect all of the people trying to make a living in racing and will try and buy parts from them whenever possible.

But this is about my money and my time. If SCCA can put this together, am I going to pass this up to help you? Sorry Mike, no. I like you and have enjoyed all of the races we have been at. You can stay at my house anytime you need, (just don't bring dave) but this is about me.

If you were to sell your car, ready to go for $30,000 and would offer the same package...I would buy yours. But, you will also have to get a series together.

I might be wrong and my idea about time and money and family might not be on the mark...but I doubt it.

I want to race and enjoy myself and my rose colored glasses (or blinders, you choose)

When did I become your whipping boy Joe?

Joe,I appreciate your position.I understand the time it takes for the guy who works all day away from his shop and race car at a normal type job.I am not your typical manufacturer of cars.I do it because I love it not to make money.I also prep cars because i like it not only to make money.I too have a regular job.I built a car for the challenge not to have a racecar empire.I am not against the car because it is a spec car.I am against it because it is wrong for the process to be circumvented to satisfy special small interest groups that won't be around to clean up the mess later.Many prep shops,car builders,parts suppliers and car owners are going to be hurt by his car.Track time will be diluted and ultimately costs will go up for everyone.I was told they are targeting the FM as far as performance .Do we need another FM class with updated bodywork?

The car will need parts, rod ends and such. A-arms will be built and wings will brake. Parts will need to be fabricated, they have to. People will want data and new belts, seats, steering wheels. So, this will not stop parts, but create more sales.
Track time will not be diluted, they are going to run them with FA. Also, only so many people are going to attend races, I doubt that this car or any car will created an attendance surge. So, this should not change corner workers, track time or the registration process in anyway.

Dave, you became my whipping boy when my wife called and said...
"Dave and I just went for a walk to town. We went to the store and bought stuff for dinner tonight. He is really nice, I like him."

You are lucky you still have legs! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[size="1"][ September 24, 2002, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: JoeTovo ][/size]

Joe-Remember you have to buy all the parts from Enterprises.They control the horizontal and they control the verticle.You will not be able to purchase anything from anyone except them.Welcome to the world of spec cars.There will be no free thinking or business with anyone but them.That all would be ok if they had allowed any American manufacturers to bid on the construction of SCCA's spec car.If they had not circumvented the normal process.If they had done the right thing.Do
you think you could ever purchase anything that you knew had been stolen from your racing community?Even if it seemed like the best deal ever?Maybe I just see it differently.

Just because I've been to the grocery store more times than you with her doesn't make me a bad guy :D

Mike, coming from SRF that is simply not true. I bought many parts from outside vendors. I bought suspension pieces from junkyards and rod ends. Fire bottles, dash board, data, sheet metal all kinds of stuff. Now, I am sure that people are going to make A-arms. Trust me on this, it will happen. It will not be different that VD now accept you are paying the SCCA. Now, do I agree with you that the SCCA is in the racing business not the car making business? YES. HELL YES. But they did well with SRF, maybe not on the books...but those are books. Look at Enron.
My company lost 40k last year...it was a good year for my s-corp.
I know it can look doom and gloom, but it is not that bad.
These cars are for the guys that are tired of the SRF. Trust me those are the target market. I do not think that FF will be effected. FF has people that love to build and work on cars. Cars that love to pay prep shops like St.Clair money to prep, deliver and maintain their cars. That is great and nothing is wrong with that. But what about guys like me? I want to prep the car and work on it, just not as indepth as you. My race car knowledge is good, but not nearly as good as most.
Your points are good, but I think that you may be going too far on SOME points. Some you are dead balls on.

The money will be spread around, just as it is now.

Dave, shut it. Don't push your luck. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Joe, actually No, It was rumored at Mid-O that the suspension (A-arms etc) would have some sort of magnetic strip that would be scanned for authenticity (you have to buy your parts from ENT no Knock-offs) to ID them as Spec parts on the car.

I don't think there will be a lot flexibilty here on buying from outside sources with this deal.

Dave

[size="1"][ September 24, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Dave Hopple ][/size]

Dave, that may be true. But we did it in SRF and besides, when I was running my VD...we bought the A-arms from VD anyway. They were cheaper and better than most others I tried.

On a side note, it has been to my attention that the personal coments between Dave Harris and I may be upsetting some people. I am sorry if that is true. Dave is a good family friend and I am having a little fun.

Mike,
Let me ask you this and answer honestly. When SCCA approched you about this project, how did you feel then? Would you be backing it if they had you as the car builder? Enterprises would still force you to build the cars and parts with minimal profit? You did not come forward when they asked you about it, only when the decided to go with VD. This makes me think that you kept it under wraps in hope of getting a piece.

This is the same way I conduct business. When someone needs a quote for a big project, I keep it under wraps. If you let out info, you are hurting you chances of getting the job.

Would you be behind this car if it was built by Suace/Stohr/Prince? Or if parts were built by the parties mentioned?

I may be cynical (I'm at the right age) but I can't imagine this spec car will ultimately be classed in FA. The buyers won't want to get their doors blown off by a 10 year old Atlantic. They will demand that their new spec car be at least competitive in its class. If the decision hasn't already been made, there will surely be a new class coming down the pike, since SCCA/Enterprises wouldn't be able to sell cars that weren't at least as fast as the other cars in the class. So there will definitely will be dilution of everyone's racing. When I bring guests to the track I always have to explain why there are so many classes. So SCCA addresses one of their biggest PR/perception problems by adding another to the mix?

I am sure that we have many other people on this site with more knowledge about track time and regulations that me.
If a car is run with FA, that is not a bad plan. The FA class is normally very small. When the bigger numbers do show up in Cendiv, it is for bigger tracks.
I also think that the FA guys are, in theory, more heads up drivers that SOME of the guys in FF/FC/FM. I need to stress some. Because each of these classes, FF/FC/FM has excellent and professional drivers. But it is easier to get into these classes because they are cheaper and easier to maintain than a FA.
So by having fewer drivers and more aware drivers in the mix it should make for a safe grouping.
I don't want to discuss grouping indepth, because you can find pages and pages of what I want to say, spoken by others at the FF Underground site.
In a nut shell, it makes a good grouping.

Runoffs.
When the SR becamse the SRF, the SCCA invited all of the Ford guys to the Runoffs. I was not around for this, but I think if you had a Ford, you were invited. I am sure that this will be the same for the Runoffs again. Why? Some people don't normally get the chance to go. It might be because of points, time, who knows. But this is a selling point too. I am surprises that they have not brought this up yet. Maybe to soon in the sales process.

Joe -What Enterprises asked me about was not a car like this it was a spes racer with no fenders and no competition for any Formula class.They wanted a 1300 Lb. car that a 250 lb driver could get in with 120 hp.Now does that sound like what they are selling now?I was not interested anyway.I am not your typical car builder.All I wanted was for the builders who could mass produce a spec car like this to get a chance to bid on building the car.SCCA did this all wrong because they knew that there would be major opposition.By the way I would not have even bid on this type of project.I have no interest in mass producing cars.Joe -They want to control everything in this class.You will not be able to buy anything but your oil from someone other than Enterprises.Believe it.

Mike, you may be correct on the parts. We will have to see how that pans out. If it is handled in the same way as the SRF, then we will have the oportunity to buy parts from other sources. They cannot and will not try and capture all of the parts sales. That would not be a money maker. For that to happen, SCCA will have to either make or get rodends and all parts from VD. That is not going to happen. You will always have that option. Look at your car. If I was to buy one, what parts would I HAVE to get from you. Well, the suspension pieces and chassis pieces. All else can be bought from any place that will accept the money.

Is the new car going to bring in NEW racers, or will it feed off existing racers and detract from existing classes? The truth is probably a little of both. The price is attractive enough to appeal to some new racers, and it has already attracted 20 or more experienced racers from different classes (as witnessed by sales at the Runoffs).

Joe, I can guarantee you that, had I been contacted, International Racing Products would have submitted a bid to produce and support the class. It would have been a business decision. As a member and supporter of SCCA, I am very unhappy with the way this entire thing was carried out. It still calls to question whether SCCA exists to serve its members...or whether a segment is dedicated to the preservation of SCCA Enterprises.

...however, all the reports that I have heard on the car sound very positive. Perhaps it will be the boost the formula car racing needs. We've already endured Formula 3, Formula Renault, the "new" Formula 2000, old FM and now new FM. FF and FC persevere in spite of these other entrants, but they don't appeal to many new drivers.

Personally, I'm hoping for the best out of this new class...

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

Joe, while I don't agree with high dollar shocks or new tires every weekend, I also have a problem with another "spec" class that allows no suspension tuning. How can you have a "drivers" class when the only way to tune the chassis is with the wings and a-roll bars?

Having driven many different VD chassis, I can tell you that the chassis needs tuning. The cars are so rake sensitive its incredible. You will have to have a good setup on the ride hight, camber, caster and wings. These factors are still open. The shocks have been removed. That is a blessing. Not everyone wants to study dyno sheets and pay someone for the latest updates. It takes alot of testing to know what shock changes effect. If I were to remove 2 turns of rebound from your car, would you know? How many people would? Now non adjustable bilsteins are a little more stock than I would like...but what the hell, why not.

Trust me, you will never find a pushrod car that has a setup that will go fast each weekend at different tracks. You will always be chasing a good setup and the wings will just confuse you even more.

There's this incredible feeling you get as a driver when you hit upon the sweet spot in setup that a spec car driver will possibly never experience. One or two clicks on a damper is the difference between sweet or not so sweet. It's a pity that someone embarking on the path to a pro ride, or even a hobbyist, won't get to experience that. That feeling is what I (we?) do this madness for, getting the whole package of car and driver working together. Seems kind of a perverted concept, no external damper adjustments. Assuming rebuildable dampers, how much wasted time will be spent changing shim stacks at the track or getting pissed off at an ill handling mush-monster? Time = lots of money. I guess I'm not the target audience.

Dane,
You are right about that feeling when you get the car just right, although I think I get more enjoyment out of the actual wheel to wheel competition in a race, when you don't have time to think about what change to make to your shocks. Luckily, this year I've had some intense wheel to wheel racing, probably some of the best of my career (16+ years). Kind of like that race you and I had a couple of years ago at RA. This year I had three or four races like that - passing two to five times a lap, etc. To me that is what racing is about, and if this spec class (car) can offer that, it will be worth being in. I know I can get that in FF, so that is where you'll probably see me. However, if these spec cars provide similar entertainment, I think you'll see a lot of them, maybe with me in one!

Thoughts:

New car= new members? Maybe, but few I bet. More likely many other cars will be for sale soon.

New car= buy all the parts from Ent? You bet, and if they can get the oil spec too you can count on it.

Ent to take over= control of the classes? That's the plan from the info I've come to get. They want it all, not some of it. The plan may include taking a run at FM again next year too. Lost round one, but wait until after elections.

New FM= A threat? (sorry had to mention the car) No way. This is a Pro (read IMSA) car only and not about to have an SCCA decal on it, save for those who choose to run it in FS.

New car= A bad idea? Not really, the people will speak with their wallets. I'm interested in what it has, but I doubt we'll see high numbers anytime soon.

Few adjustments= A bad design (and NOT a drivers class??) I don't see that. If anything it's much more of a drivers class than what many have now. Few changes place the emphasis on the driver rather than the engineer. Yea, I know, don't start with the training engineers stuff. The SCCA is not about training engineers.

I'm toying with telling you all a short story about the new Ent tech director. Suffice it to say the SCCA has few scruples.....

[size="1"][ September 25, 2002, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Todd TCE ][/size]

Todd- You are dead on about the lack of scruples.I talked with MS.Jensen and it is like talking to a recorder with a tape loop.Same exchange back and forth with little understanding that SCCA is for the members not just the Board of Directors.The dilution of classes started along time ago when many of the current members were not around.Remember the Shelby Can Am.It was pushd through by a small special interest group(the Board of Directors).It died but in the process almost killed S2000.Too many people have used the strength of club racing for there own personal and financial gains usually screwing things in the process.It just makes me sick.Racing costs money.We have classes for people who don't care how much they have to spend to be competitive and we have classes where a reasonable budget can keep you competitive and everything in between.We don't need any more Spec classes or any other classes period.The quality of SCCA's product is diluted and compromised every
time the BOD's think they know what is best for us the members.

All of this about this new car/class turns my insides. If they are trying to create a training/drivers class, a driver must be allowed to at least turn the knobs on a damper if he/her is going to learn anything. The big formula cars are all about the drivers feel. If you take away the abilities of a driver to shine because he/she has that 'gift', it is like slowing down the education of a 'gifted' child so all the others can keep up. This mentality of the SCCA is why F1 cannot and will not find an American driver, at least one from our soil.

Let Dominic Cape test the car, the package has never even turned a wheel. He is the best I know, and I know a lot of them, then let the scca seal the shim stacks specs, BUT LEAVE THEM ADJUSTABLE. Then dump a produstion car class. There are only 6 of the 24 classes that are for formula cars. Then they need to bind the regions to hold sanctioned SCCA races with those race groupings. LET THE MEMBERSHIP WITH COMPETITION LICENSES DECIDE. We are the ones racing in these groups, let us decide. FA/FC, FF/F500, FM/FS, FV.

As Joe says, if it's worth having, work for it!

Jon

And Todd says: "Suffice it to say the SCCA has few scruples....."

Methinks taking over the whole formula car classification is in the works OR we too can be a "Skippy" using the Trans Am as a base. If you get enough players to dilute the National entries, then everything else becomes a Regional Class anyway.

Plus

Just where did the idea of Enterprises, Sports Racer Renoo (and the Le Car Pro Series), Pro Trucks, etc. come from anyway?

John is right on the money in his statement about driver training. If you put a new driver into a car that is developed to only 70% of it's potential, then you get a driver that can only drive a 70% car. Put him/her into a car that needs to be tweeked to 90%, and MAYBE a few naturally gifted drivers will learn how to do it, but only with the help of an experienced (read: expensive) engineer/coach. Put them into a car that needs to be tweeked to 100% to be competitive, and that 70% driver will be useless, and probably useless forever if they spent too much of their formative training time in that 70% car.

Spec classes DO have their place in club racing (gads, how I hate to admit that!) because of the number of people who look at race driving as just another form of entertaining themselves - like buying a wave runner - but to think of them as being a savior of the Club is a big mistake.

Richard-Dead on Richard,You can see the downfall of American drivers linked to 2 happenings,when Spec race cars were introduced in the early 80's and the downturn for Formula Ford.The two happened together.Now how many Americans are successful in Europe.Very few.In Europe they start in Formula Ford.But even now thats changing because too many Spec cars have been introduced.The people who don't know where to start have many choices and money is the first consideration.I don't think that we will ever be able to create the caliber of driver necessary for F1 without a stationary ladder system.There are too many spec cars and spec series, not because it creates great drivers but it makes money for the car and series providers.It all comes down to money.

Trackman.
If you want to post anything on this forum, that is fine. Your opinions are welcome. If you want to criticize someone personally or there post, give us a name or an email...something.

I will not allow for people to slam others and not stand up to there own words.

* 3M *

[size="1"][ September 26, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: JoeTovo ][/size]

Steve S.,
I'm glad the new car may be right for you, an important fact is you'll still be RACING! For some of us the shoe doesn't fit, but don't let our opinions take away from anyone's enjoyment of their new ride.

See ya at Indy.

Dane, if the spec car was a 2001 williams, you would still want something more advanced! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Joe -Have you put your order in yet for the new Spec car?What if it is a really cool looking car and it handles like crap?How much will it cost to have an engineer figure out what is wrong with it?
Good luck and have fun.Maybe someday I'll even want a Spec car.I hope they at least make them use an American tire manufacturer.

Mike, I am not spending a dime until after next season pans out.

If it handles like crap, that would suprise me. It is a VD chassis with a few changed. It is a proven car, I am confident it will work.

But yet, I am waiting a bit to order one!

I don't think I agree with what is being said here. I believe that when cars are more equal and money isn't playing all the cards then it is more of a drivers competition. Sure maybe the car can only become 70% of it's potential with the tuning available but that's not a disadvantage. If everyone has to deal with 70% maximum then you factor it out and everyone is on the same playing field.

A Formula Ford is not a 100% car, and an F1 car is much closer to the 100% mark. Does that mean that the drivers in FF aren't as good or that competition won't be as good? Actually it's totally opposite then that. Not everyone has the money for an engineer, not everyone has the money for the best equipment so what it should come down to is the driver. A good driver can balance a car on the edge of it's theoretical limit and there's where the skill comes into play. When you push the envelope of technology and money cars go beyond the capabilities of human abilities. Therefore technologies like traction control and launch control are used to do something a driver can't. So what it comes down to is the person with the best car and money will win the race UNLESS there is some big problem but on the average that is what happens.

Sure racing isn't cheap but if you open your eyes and look at the way racing is going... it's down the tubes for the people that think money, engineering and 100% tunable cars are the way to go. Without fans, sponsors and close racing the fields will get smaller each year. As much as I like technology I can't deny that racing is also for the fans and the people giving the teams money to play. CART is nearly dead and where did all their technology and superb engineers and lousy marketing? No where..... people want to see close racing and drivers that they can relate too. They could care less about what is under the hood or what types of shocks we would be running. Sure it may matter to us gurus but unless you want to be sitting in your garage making engine noises because the series are dead then change is the answer.

A spec car with limited adjustability will level the playing field because the expensive engineers, expensive data logging, and massive amount of track time to "approach" 100% tuned will not be as big of a deal. Go-karts don't have shocks or suspensions and there races are close and have good competition.

Sex appeal is also another big point... sure our FFs still look decent but they don't compare to the looks of the spec car in this article. Looks make the world go round and it can be found is almost any avenue of our existence. We can explain to people all day that some of the looks of the spec car don't do much for it but in the end they will still look at the better looking car as superior. Would you buy fruit in the store that had a label saying it was high in some vitamins that other fruits didn't have but it was ugly looking fruit? Probably not…

Remember that thing called computers… remember when it came around and everyone said that they can do things fine without it and that there needed to be no change? Remember fighting with people about the advantages of it but just watching your thoughts go right out the other ear? It’s interesting………

Chris More

Chris-I think the point trying to be made here is this:SCCA is a club (non-profit).It is supposed to be controlled by it's members for the good of it's members.Spec cars will come and go because it is only profit that is important.You think FF is expensive,try owning a FM or even a FV.If you want to be competitive in any class it costs money.Tires are the single biggest costs besides entry fee and travel.If you want a top notch Nationally competitive engine in FV you have to pay around $3000.00 for a good rebuild.FF costs are only marginally higher.If you want to buy a car to run in any class usually the acquisition costs are the biggest chunk of change you spend.A spec car is a more expensive acquisition but the motor costs are cheaper.But even with the spec car you still have the constants,ie Travel,entry fees,tires etc.I run my FF for about $750.00 weekend.Thats based on 1/2 set a tires and motor costs and chassis parts.The rest of my cost of racing is travel,motels amd food.I figure 1 set of tires every other weekend except at the Sprints,double Nat. or Runoffs. If we had a tire rule it would help bring down the costs of tires on a season.Ask any guy who has a Spec car,he will tell you it is not much cheaper than what I spend on a FF.In fact I bet most of them spend more.The problem with FF is not the costs of it but the way many of the people think that own them.Racing is expensive and it is not for everyone.Why should it be.There are other alternatives,Go karts autocrossing etc.FF is not expensive in comparison to almost any other open wheel class.I get really tired of listening to people complain about things they don't try to change.If you want a Spec car go and buy one, for some it may be the answer but I have watched Spec cars come and go over the years and the only two classes that I have seen little or no change since 1974 is FV and FF.FF has had downturns in participation and we need to address those issues.
Alternative motor parts are in the works which will help the reliability and longevity and other issues will be addressed as well.I hope we can all do our parts to help FF prosper in the future.
Spec cars serve a purpose in this case to make money for Enterprises but they are not cheaper to race.

Mike,
I will rent your car for $750 for every weekend in Cendiv. I will even do your region.
If you can run the car for $750 per weekend, I will pick you and the car up and go to the track.
Gibby charges $200-$300 per day for assistance. I will give you the same. You don't even have to do anything. Just hang out and have fun.
So, $750 per weekend and I take the car to the track.

Sign me up. When is the next race?

JoeTovo,

You wouldn't happen to have Gibby's email would ya?

Mike,I've been in CFF and FF in Central Div.for a few years and have always found a way to race for
$750. or even less.Sure I will get used tires and camp out also track showers.
As far as the expence of owning a Formula Ford I've reacently converted a 2 liter car to a 1600
for under $10,000. If one has the drive and determination one can do this sport on a limited
budget. John Vlasis

Joe -The deal is I own my own car.I take the depreciation costs and my labor costs out of the equation.I race for about $750.00 a weekend plus traveling expenses and that spec car is not gonna be much cheaper because the traveling,motel entry fee and food expense is basically the same for everyone.I figure $3-4k engine costs annually about $400.oo per weekend and $300.. or so for tires remember 1 set every 2 weekends and remember I build all my own parts and repair my own car and do all the labor.I went to the Runoffs this by myself and cared for my car and my brothers car basically alone.I don't fly in friends and family,I drive the truck myself and cut costs wherever I can.I bet you dinner at the Runoffs next year that the Spec car tires are more expensive than FF-FC tires and you have to have a new set every race to be competitive.Ask the Mazda guys.The only thing you will possibly save money on is the motor and that remains to be seen.Joe I hope you realize I not against the Spec car I against the the way SCCA is doing it and I am against the misinformation that flys around at the site of a new pretty face.