yellow flag clarification

Racing to the flag line is going to happen almost every time, regardless og how some people may feel about it - this is the scenario that I brought up with the CRB at the time that "line" was clarified:

Last lap at the Runoffs. Accident around a blind corner where the approaching cars cannot see it. Multiple cars battling for the lead, and are almost at their normal braking point when the flag comes out ( a standing yellow at the previous corner would be of zero effect in this scenario, especiall if it was a long straight back to the previous corner and flag station). Driver's instinct is going to be to try to brake as late as possible to be a nose ahead at that line and therefore win the championship.

So the Club needs to figure out a way to get people to slow well before that line. As to just how, i have no idea of something that would be practical and easy to implement.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bamford

im going by SCCA Pro rules covering F4 which are covered by FIA rules. I argued that it didn’t make sense in a meeting for ten minutes with a group of 40 plus people but I was clearly told we are to race to the plane of the first flag.

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Flag rules in Pro are different from those in Club. This thread discusses Club rules, particularly the changes in the 2018 GCR around local Yellows.

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Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

You were misinformed. Racing stops the instant that the Double Yellow is displayed. There is no racing to the yellow (all cars are already in a Yellow zone).

From 6.1.1.B:

DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course

yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO

PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off

pace (see 6.6.2.).

NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still

the same: SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING.

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That rule pertain OnlY to when double yellows are displayed at every station. NOT when it is a single or waved yellow:

From the GCR 6.1.1.

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)

STANDING YELLOW – You are approaching an incident where your and other’s safety are at risk. The
racing surface may be clear but there is immediate danger to you or others if you left the racing surface.
Slow significantly and proceed thru the incident at a reduced speed. There is no passing from the flag until
past the emergency incident.

WAVED – You are approaching an incident that has great danger to you and others. The racing surface may
be partially or completely blocked. Slow significantly and be prepared to stop. All efforts should be made
to proceed through a Waving Yellow Flag in single file order. There is no passing from the flag until past
the emergency incident.

The no passing zone starts at a perpendicular line across the track from the flag and ends at a perpendicular
line across the track from the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag. The last component
may be the car, driver, responding officials, other vehicles and/or large debris.

I just checked FRP double flag rules:

1.6.16.10.c YELLOW, DOUBLE
The flags will be displayed at all stations. Full course caution, slow down, use caution,
no passing anywhere on the circuit. This may be used with or without a safety
car. However in nearly all cases a safety car will be used. Gather in single file behind
the safety car or the leader and prepare for a restart. The course remains under
the full-course yellow condition until a green flag is displayed at start/finish.

It is essentially the same as Club rules.

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Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

Flag rules in Pro are different from those in Club. This thread discusses Club rules, particularly the changes in the 2018 GCR around local Yellows.

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Well im glad the Club got this rule right as I don’t understand the rational behind racing to double yellows.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bamford

im going by SCCA Pro rules covering F4 which are covered by FIA rules. I argued that it didn’t make sense in a meeting for ten minutes with a group of 40 plus people but I was clearly told we are to race to the plane of the first flag.

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Was that the decision of the Race Director (who has no prior Club Racing Steward experience)?

Perhaps I could offer some perspective from the tower.

When the call comes from a station about an incident triggering a local (Standing or Waving) Yellow, the operating steward does a triage. Based on the information flowing in real time, what do I do?

The incident always starts as a local Yellow. I may have to upgrade that at any moment.

As long as it is a local Yellow, or a local Waving with a backup Standing, I (the operator) let the drivers sort out the passage through the incident. The flagger on the spot may offer hand signals to help drivers thread the incident.

I know very well that drivers will see (register) the local Yellow at different instants (or maybe not at all), and will (should) prepare to be under control and not passing by the time they reach the plane of the local Yellow. How they sort that out is of (far) secondary importance to their arriving in the incident zone under control.

If newer information indicates escalation, I call for a Double Yellow, Black Flag All, or Red, according to circumstances.

The absolute/absolute/absolute key to all of these flags is that drivers see, and respond, to them. If that happens, we can get through this incident in reasonable safety and with minimum disruption to racing.

If that does not happen, I will be merciless. :mad:

To expand a bit on some of the previous comments, the ability of corner workers to provide supplemental information via their physical behavior, while important information, is not always possible. Tracks with extensive barriers and catch fences provide only small openings for flagging. In many cases, they are so limited that waving a flag is challenging.

The critical issue is driver awareness of the location of each flagging position and making note each passing.

With ProAutoSports, our outlap is a full course yellow. Idea is to see where the stations are. That helps a lot in seeing flags when they are shown. Also, in assessing track condition. Of course, this has to be done while warming the Tires and Brakes. Some pro racers seem to come out on warm up lap at 90 percent :mad:

Virtually every driver in a FRP session is at 90+% on the first lap....just reality...and we as a rule do not have double yellows out. We do, however sometimes put a white flag out on the first lap of the first session for corner locations. It catches out some club drivers, but we try to let them know before the weekend starts what to expect.

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Originally Posted by marshall9

With ProAutoSports, our outlap is a full course yellow. Idea is to see where the stations are. That helps a lot in seeing flags when they are shown. Also, in assessing track condition. Of course, this has to be done while warming the Tires and Brakes. Some pro racers seem to come out on warm up lap at 90 percent :mad:

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SCCA Club Racing standard practice is to use a white flag on the first lap of each race group's first session of the day.

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

SCCA Club Racing standard practice is to use a white flag on the first lap of each race group's first session of the day.

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Understood. I was just sharing an alternative to what has some folks upset here.

Just so we are not missing the context of the rules: (GCR 2018 January)

6.1. FLAGS
Flags convey the commands or information indicated below. They must be obeyed immediately and without
question. The content of this section cannot be amended by any event Supplemental Regulations.

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – You are approaching an incident where your and other’s safety are at risk. The
racing surface may be clear but there is immediate danger to you or others if you left the racing surface.
Slow significantly and proceed thru the incident at a reduced speed. There is no passing from the flag until
past the emergency incident.

Now 6.1 says they need to be obeyed immediately, and the command is you are approaching and incident and you need to slow significantly.

If someone wants to race me into a yellow zone (and I am not talking about a pass in progress or a late flag) then by the rules:

8.3. PROTEST PROCEDURES
8.3.1. How to Protest
The following are requirements to protest. A Protest must:
A. be in writing;
B. must specify the sections of the GCR or Supplemental Regulations that are alleged to have been violated;
C. be signed by the protestor;
D. be accompanied by a fee of $50, if at a U.S. Majors Tour race; $25 if at a Regional race or Drivers’
School. These fees may be returned to the protestor at the discretion of the SOM.

I can afford that. I might even type it up ahead of time......

Now for you corner workers out there. If there is an incident in front of your station but not past the plane of your station, and there are cars coming in that have passed the previous station, If you just happen to wave the flag as a warning, I see nothing in the rules that stop you from doing that, just that I cannot pass from after the station and the incident (which could be the same thing).

If the flaggers are out there to save our hide, what are they taught? They do not wait for Control, they have the authority to do a standing or waiving yellow, I would assume, until the Corner Captain overrules them. Is a copy of a flagger's handbook on line so we can see how they are currently trained?

ChrisZ

If you elect to slow more than someone else and the driver behind passes you before the plane of the flag you are in a difficult situation with a protest. Undefined in the rules is how to determine when a driver sees the flag. That's why the practice has been to use the plane of the flag to determine things.

This isn't to discourage you from filing a protest or appeal. It may not be the kind of thing a Runoffs Driver Advisor would encourage, but ultimately, it's your decision.

The rule is very clear - the "no passing" zone starts at the line where the flag is.

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Originally Posted by FVRacer21

Just so we are not missing the context of the rules: (GCR 2018 January)

6.1. FLAGS
Flags convey the commands or information indicated below. They must be obeyed immediately and without
question. The content of this section cannot be amended by any event Supplemental Regulations.

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – You are approaching an incident where your and other’s safety are at risk. The
racing surface may be clear but there is immediate danger to you or others if you left the racing surface.
Slow significantly and proceed thru the incident at a reduced speed. There is no passing from the flag until
past the emergency incident.

Now 6.1 says they need to be obeyed immediately, and the command is you are approaching and incident and you need to slow significantly.

If someone wants to race me into a yellow zone (and I am not talking about a pass in progress or a late flag) then by the rules:

8.3. PROTEST PROCEDURES
8.3.1. How to Protest
The following are requirements to protest. A Protest must:
A. be in writing;
B. must specify the sections of the GCR or Supplemental Regulations that are alleged to have been violated;
C. be signed by the protestor;
D. be accompanied by a fee of $50, if at a U.S. Majors Tour race; $25 if at a Regional race or Drivers’
School. These fees may be returned to the protestor at the discretion of the SOM.

I can afford that. I might even type it up ahead of time......

Now for you corner workers out there. If there is an incident in front of your station but not past the plane of your station, and there are cars coming in that have passed the previous station, If you just happen to wave the flag as a warning, I see nothing in the rules that stop you from doing that, just that I cannot pass from after the station and the incident (which could be the same thing).

If the flaggers are out there to save our hide, what are they taught? They do not wait for Control, they have the authority to do a standing or waiving yellow, I would assume, until the Corner Captain overrules them. Is a copy of a flagger's handbook on line so we can see how they are currently trained?

ChrisZ

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I would never discourage anyone from filing a protest. However, I would not rate your chance of success very high. As you point out in your quote from 6.1.1.B., the rule specifies, "There is no passing from the flag until past the emergency incident." If a car passes before the flag, it has not violated the rule.

There is great merit in what you write about slowing before the flag. The challenge is a real-world implementation.

First, not everybody sees the flag at the same instant, so not everybody can slow up in sync. Imagine two cars racing nose-to-tail. The lead driver will see the flag first. If he "slows significantly", we have a second crash - not what we are really looking for.

Second, "slow significantly" is subjective and open to interpretation. One driver's 'significantly' is 3%; another's is 30%.

In practical terms, having the no-passing zone start at the plane of the flag is the only feasible (i.e. safely enforceable) point. The critical outcome is that drivers traverse the incident zone under control, without passing, without endangering responders, and without contact.

You are correct that the introduction to 6.1 specifies that flags be obeyed immediately and without question. The meaning of 'immediately' is context-dependent. For example, if I encounter a White at a station, I know that there is a slow-moving vehicle somewhere ahead. I do not have to do anything at that moment except to be ready to overtake a slow vehicle.

Similarly, for a local Yellow, the rule as written does not forbid me from passing right now. It does forbid me from passing once I reach the plane of the flag.


On Edit: If I were the Driver Advisor and you were minded to protest another driver for something that happened before your cars crossed the plane of the local Yellow, I would offer you three pieces of advice:

1. You have an absolute right to protest and appeal. Any steward who tells you different is guilty of malpractice. By the same token, no steward can guarantee you the outcome that you desire.

2. If the burden of your complaint is simply that the other driver passed you before crossing the plane, I would advise you that you had a very modest chance of success. However, see point 1.

3. If you allege that the other driver committed some additional wickedness, I would advise you, in addition to citing 6.1.1.B. (Yellow), to cite also GCR 2.1.4. (Reckless and Dangerous Driving). Video would help your case.

I would be very happy to help you navigate the protest process. Please feel free to contact me. See: https://docs.google.com/a/johnnesbit...MjRiM2IxNjRjZA

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Originally Posted by farrout

The "slow significantly" on the standing yellow is generally not happening by all competitors from what I have seen in recent races. Can anyone (i.e., F&C, Stewards) define significantly? Slow down by 10%, 25%, 50% ????

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I am kinda thinking the similar lines here.... The rule is now going to say "slow significantly", but what is significant? And "significant" is a huge difference to a FV vs a FA.
A FA slowing "significantly" is still arriving at the EV scene faster than a FV at max attack. FVs slowing just a little is more than enough, as long as the car is under control.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Racing to the flag is, IMO, the only practical way to handle a yellow-flag situation. Anything else leads to driver confusion and misunderstandings, let alone any way for officials to make a decision on where any fault might lie.

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I agree with Dave about when you start to lift for a caution, there has to be a hard & non-subjective point at which it is in effect (the plane of the first flag). Just seeing a flag is not sufficient. In a tight FV draft, the lead car may be able to see it, but the 5 cars tucked up under him will not.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bamford

im going by SCCA Pro rules covering F4 which are covered by FIA rules. I argued that it didn’t make sense in a meeting for ten minutes with a group of 40 plus people but I was clearly told we are to race to the plane of the first flag.

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FIA Rules.

"b) Yellow flag: This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two ways with the following meanings: – Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track. – Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track. Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshals? post immediately preceding the hazard. In some cases however the Clerk of the Course may order them to be shown at more than one marshals? post preceding an incident. Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the green flag displayed after the incident. Yellow flags should not be shown in the pit lane unless there is an incident of which the driver should be made aware."

This clearly states the conundrum of the situation, and gives race-track-lawyers fodder for comment. All regulations (I have seen) clearly state the driver is to reduce speed (significantly?) when the yellow situation is communicated/observed. There is no reference to racing to the flag. The only reference to the plane of the flag is that there is no overtaking from the flag to either past the incident, or, in the FIA rules (more logical to me), a green flag/light is displayed.

Again, I find no reference (in the regulations) that you can "race to the flag." There may be interpretations to that effect, but the mandate is that you slow down. To me, that means you are no longer racing.

I understand the nature of the beast - "if I can pass the guy in front before I get to the flag, I can make a position." (Discussion of what a "pass" is will occupy another lengthy thread.) However, I can assure you, from experience, when you are sitting dead-in-the-water, across the track, on a blind corner, you certainly hope the rest of the drivers on the track are sensible enough to not "race to the flag" and possibly not be able to stop before they T-bone you.

As far as blindly checking up when you see a flag, it is part of your job (and certainly should be part of your skill set) to have enough situational awareness not to suddenly slow when someone is a few feet behind (unless you have to, based on the situation). Raising your arm and waving (yes, you should be able to raise your arm to the top of your head - another lengthy thread, here) and, possibly, even pulling over a bit to allow the following driver to become more aware of what is going on, is an option. I realize, the following driver might think you are an idiot and simply take the position - "because he can race to the flag" - so what. (A gentleman racer would give that position back as soon as he realized what you had done.)

IMO, as soon as you see the flag, you should concentrate on doing everything you can to make sure everyone is as safe as possible, and be ready for any possibility. I'm sure your wife and kids would appreciate that attitude.

To paraphrase Carl Jensen again, Roger Penske is not at the track looking for the next hot shoe. If you are a professional racing driver (or wanna be) then you can take all the chances you wish. Do it in the appropriate sandbox. It may seem that Dave W and I disagree on this subject. I contend that we do not disagree that much, as we both place common sense and logic above any hard-and-fast rules.

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

...It may seem that Dave W and I disagree on this subject. I contend that we do not disagree that much, as we both place common sense and logic above any hard-and-fast rules.

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Absolutely. Common sense and logic rule!

Honestly, I don't know why this is so hard to figure out.

The rules have always been pretty unambiguous, and they're now such anyone who doesn't understand them at this point is either a moron or they're just trying to lie their way out of a penalty.

Waving or standing yellow means you can keep racing up to the flag, and then you have to slow down enough to get past the incident without becoming a part of it.

Honestly, trying to say "slow down 30%" and actually thinking we can enforce that with the resources available is ludicrous. Yes, F1, IMSA, and IndyCar can do that but they have way more resources than we do. In part this is because even their feeder series charge more just for entry fees than most club racers spend on an entire season budget.

If you're one of the lucky few that's never had to hop out of a wrecked or broken race car under a local yellow, you have no idea what some of these idiots look like from trackside. They say they're backing off but I've lost count of the number of times I've been extricating myself from a wrecked or broken race car and people are locking wheels, countersteering, or WOT from the flag to the incident (AKA me). One time a worker and I almost got run over by an FA at an incident site that had been there for half the session... on the cool-down lap.

You need to have your car FULLY under control for a standing yellow, and for a waving yellow you have to do that plus be able to avoid something that is blocking at least part of the track.

If it's a situation where they are doing a hot pull or somebody is still in their car, keep in mind what things are going to look like from the side of the track. Back off, coast through the yellow zone, move off-line away from the incident, wave at them, or otherwise do something gives the people trackside some shred of information that lets them know you're actually aware of the situation.

If you're afraid of getting hit from behind, try not to make your decision to slow down at the absolute last instant or pull way off line before braking early. If you're not slowing down because you're afraid of getting gapped or passed then realize what you're telling me is that a $5 piece of wood or prize money worth maybe 10% of what it's costing you to race is worth more to you than not ending up sliding under a tow truck at speed. In other words, you've just told me you're a moron. In all cases, you're the one ultimately responsible for controlling your own race car. If you're basing decisions on what the other drivers are doing that's just bad racecraft: it's not only dangerous but it's going to make you slow. If it's not in font of me or beside me, it doesn't actually exist in my mind. I've had enough idiots clobber me from behind enough times to teach me that no matter what I do stupid people will be stupid, so the best I can do is just maintain control of my own car. That's the only way I can achieve the mediocre level of performance I'm famous for.

If you're finding yourself constantly coming up with schoolyard excuses for your stupid behavior ("the flag stations are hard to see!", "he made me do it!"), or you're trying to come up with these incredibly lawyerly interpretations where the stupid thing you want to do isn't actually stupid, I suggest maybe you think about selling the race car and taking up an activity that doesn't involve high speed decision-making. Especially if you're planning on doing it anywhere in my vicinity.

When I see a waving yellow I instantly change my focus from charging to corner,to caution, to take in the situation and in my many years have been passed by numerous drivers who "didn't see the yellow", funny how it's always the same guys.

" Drivers need to be aware of what they're doing and what is in front of them. A driver can tell a lot by how much agitation the flagger has as he/she is waving that yellow- "

Flaggers should be trained to do this. Unfortunately, I have seen many cases where they failed to show appropriate "enthusiasm" to communicate the level of danger I perceived [say when cresting roller coaster to find an ambulance parked inches from my track out point, or coming out of the carousel to find a driver standing mid track, next to his car, blocking 90% of the track]
I like the idea of a mandatory radio, with open channel to race-control, who only talks on the line when an incident occurs. I also like the idea of lights upstream from every corner, that can flash yellow upstream of an incident [not cheap, but not really that expensive either, I'd guess] Neither of these options are as quick, cheap or intuitively effective as a flagger who is obviously trying hard to get you to slow down because badness awaits and they are concerned.there will be people in danger. Good flaggers are a godsend.

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Originally Posted by swiftdrivr

" Drivers need to be aware of what they're doing and what is in front of them. A driver can tell a lot by how much agitation the flagger has as he/she is waving that yellow- "

Flaggers should be trained to do this. Unfortunately, I have seen many cases where they failed to show appropriate "enthusiasm" to communicate the level of danger I perceived [say when cresting roller coaster to find an ambulance parked inches from my track out point, or coming out of the carousel to find a driver standing mid track, next to his car, blocking 90% of the track]
I like the idea of a mandatory radio, with open channel to race-control, who only talks on the line when an incident occurs. I also like the idea of lights upstream from every corner, that can flash yellow upstream of an incident [not cheap, but not really that expensive either, I'd guess] Neither of these options are as quick, cheap or intuitively effective as a flagger who is obviously trying hard to get you to slow down because badness awaits and they are concerned.there will be people in danger. Good flaggers are a godsend.

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I agree with the radios, almost every one has one. Not sure though how since we are all on different frequencies that you could have race control patch into them? However the standing flag upstream of the incident is the cheapest, easiest and possibly the most effective fix. This is what driver meetings are for. Can we ask for the extra flag?

https://racingelectronics.com/collec...eceiver-switch

Here is a cheap and effective way. You set the race steward's desired channel and lock it in. Use a splitter to pipe this output to your headset if you have a radio. If not, you use the simple ear bud to listen.

IMO this should be required, and used.

I don't have a radio [nobody on the pit wall, so no need], but I'd be willing to get one for this. Also, a flag upstream won't help if it's, say, T1 [long straight back to the prior flag] A light 50 ft upstream from the flag stand, activated by the corner that has the yellow, moves the line back away from the incident a reasonable distance, [and allows you to race to the light safely too] shows up for work every weekend, and pays for itself quickly, I'd imagine. Still won't replace an animated corner worker if you are following close behind the incident. Of course, nothing helps if you don't watch the flag stations, so that's on us. God knows I've been guilty at times, usually when in close competition.

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Originally Posted by swiftdrivr

I don't have a radio [nobody on the pit wall, so no need], but I'd be willing to get one for this.

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Don't need a radio. This is a scanner that would simply be tuned to the Race Director's frequency. It's a stand alone product if need be. Keep it charged (with included charger) is all you need to do.

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

Don't need a radio. This is a scanner that would simply be tuned to the Race Director's frequency. It's a stand alone product if need be. Keep it charged (with included charger) is all you need to do.

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I like the scanner idea. The driver would know instantly what porential trouble lies ahead and where. It is a listen only system so you would not need complicated PTT switching if you already have a radio. If you already have a crew radio you would require a second listening device. Say ear buds for crew and maybe a built in speaker for race control. It is mandatory in oval racing (dirt and asphalt) to be in constant touch with race control. The purists (old guys - sorry Jim) will hate it and wax on about the old days when drivers paid better attention to flags. We can talk and talk or we can make a good plan and ask that it become mandatory. You cannot say no due to cost. How much does only one collision cost? Technology has arrived lets use it.

The line is the only thing that makes sense. As Bob said above one of the eagle eye young kids may spot that yellow from a mile away while my older eyes need to get a little closer before I see it. Does that mean I get extra racing room to make up for my age?

I was protested once for passing under the yellow. It was pouring rain and the car in front of me was just a ball of spray. As I went past on the inside I didn't see the yellow (on the outside of the track) till going past so I assumed I was past him before the line. The driver protested and said he put his hand up which of course I never saw with all the spray. He won the protest and I was penalized 60 seconds. Was not too upset as I still won the race with the 60 seconds. I still think I was in the right though - sorry Mike

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Originally Posted by marshall9

Understood. I was just sharing an alternative to what has some folks upset here.

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Double Yellow is being displayed on the Pace Lap in Club Racing at ALL Flag Stations.

"Does that mean I get extra racing room to make up for my age?"
It's going to take more than that for me to be competitive.

We should definitely do the radio link. It doesn't even have to be mandatory; I think most of us would do it on our own, and race control would be all for it. However, that is a delayed system, since it requires the corner to communicate with race-control, perhaps some clarification, then the word goes out to the drivers. This is probably going to occur after the flag has been thrown, so more delay. A light, tripped by the corner workers when they see the event and wave the flag, is nearly instantaneous. This also gives us a line that is safely removed from the incident, that we can race to but not beyond, and still slow down well before coming up on the incident. That will, of course, require the cooperation of the tracks, so not as easy as it sounds, but it effectively increases your flaggers, adding one upstream of every corner station, that never fails to show up for the day.. Still, nothing replaces a good corner-worker.

II think the idea of a yellow line designating the same point as the lights would be easy to implement and enforce. (What happens if the light is not turned on in time and with limited flaggers who does it?)

I am proposing to people in the NE that we work with certain tracks to write it into the supps at and maybe try it at one turn per track this year in order to see how it would work. We could do it at turns where the corner is blind, but the corner station is very visible.

The exact rules are not yet written but it would show the SCCA that the drivers want to take a proactive part in safety.

The feedback from the drivers can be instantaneous and the line and supps can be changed at the track, unlike the GCR.

Anyone interested in discussing it more can pm me.

Chris Zarzycki
FV#23
MoHud

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Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

You were misinformed. Racing stops the instant that the Double Yellow is displayed. There is no racing to the yellow (all cars are already in a Yellow zone..........

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PS: Steve isn't misinformed, he's CANADIAN!!! Different rules in the land of ice (different club)

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Originally Posted by rickb99

PS: Steve isn't misinformed, he's CANADIAN!!! Different rules in the land of ice (different club)

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What is this strange and magical 'Canada' of which you speak? Ice racing? Sled dogs? Molsons-fueled cars (drivers)?

"I think the idea of a yellow line designating the same point as the lights would be easy to implement and enforce. (What happens if the light is not turned on in time and with limited flaggers who does it?)"

How do you know the line is "on"? It doesn't seem to provide the upstream warning a light would.

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Originally Posted by swiftdrivr

"I think the idea of a yellow line designating the same point as the lights would be easy to implement and enforce. (What happens if the light is not turned on in time and with limited flaggers who does it?)"

How do you know the line is "on"? It doesn't seem to provide the upstream warning a light would.

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The line would be before the corner, but the flag station would be visible. I envision it like Turn 3 at Thompson, where the flag station is visible from 1/2 way down the straight, but the turn itself is somewhat blind. Last year we had an incident where there were emergency vehicles at the track out point, but you might not have seen them until you got parallel to the corner station. If you raced to the "no passing line", which is past the turn in point, you would not have time to get the car under control. (and indeed we had a spin in the waving yellow zone!)

If we are talking a truly blind corner (over the Uphill at Lime Rock, then a light or the station prior to the flag station would be helpful.

Many tracks have or are trying this (Thompson has one before the bridge) but it has no authority in the GCR unless it is considered a flag station.

This is a work in progress.

ChrisZ

At the Sebring Majors race this month, there were yellow lights at the entrance and middle of turn 17. They were advisory lights only and it was made clear in the drivers meeting that the perpendicular line at the flag station governed the flag. These lights covered what was essentially a blind corner both at the entrance and middle of 17. They are expensive according to the region, but I think helped what is generally considered a fairly dangerous corner.

The above in an interesting discussion- other racing bodies use an onboard yellow but primarily on ovals, not road courses. There is some technology being developed for local yellows (FRP is looking at it) but it is not proven yet. It is also more expensive than I think the average club racer wants to spend at this point. The flag system works quite well as long as everybody pays attention. Also the flags are not subject to the vagrancies of technology glitches

For blind areas such as the uphill at Lime Rock it has always been the practice that if there is an incident over the hill a yellow is show at the corner station at the base of the hill along with the one at the top. So the yellow flag zone starts down there.

Though that is not practical when it is a long distance between flag stations or as on many race weekends now, where not all the flag stations are manned due to a shortage of flaggers.

Ed

How are passing under the yellow judgements made with these these yellow lights? Are there observers stationed next to each one? There is a good reason for the perpendicular to the track rule.

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

How are passing under the yellow judgements made with these these yellow lights? Are there observers stationed next to each one? There is a good reason for the perpendicular to the track rule.

Brian

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Typically, using a light to signal the start of the no-passing zone will be called out in the supps.

For example, at Summit Point, we have used a yellow light under the bridge before T10 (the flag station is poorly sited wrt drivers line of sight). We specify in our event supps that the no-passing zone starts at the light. (When it is working, but that is another thread.)

It wouldn't be perfect, but then, neither is the current system. The corner workers who make the call now would still have to make their best judgement, but there would be a lot less danger to the people at the scene of the incident. This should outweigh any missed close calls on "was the pass complete before the line." Big violations would still be easy to spot. The rest would rely on driver's honor. I certainly wouldn't want credit for an illegal pass that endangered corner workers or my fellow drivers.