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I think the majority are running engine in the 3-5k range and many even less. Talking majors level runoff engines I don't know but saying FVs are running 10k + engines is not accurate, a few maybe but most no. I have less than 10k in my entire package and it is not entry level stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnovak
What does it take to win at the top level? That is one of the reasons FV is loosing racers.Quote:
Originally Posted by fvracer27
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69884Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnovak
Seems like a reasonable price
I think it's more driver ability, set up, preparation and dedication than anything else.
That is right. Maybe we should pay an additional two dollars with our entry to go toward the add. We have a great base we need to utilize them betterQuote:
Originally Posted by nbrigido
It makes sense ,I know in the southern Ontario region there were 5 formula vees that were sold to newbies ,in the last 2 years.
Yet not one of those 5 cars have been out since their purchase.
If any of those new owners are on the forum ,it would be nice to hear from them.
Obviously there is room for improvement on how we bring new blood into the sport.
Cheers
Desmond
Hitch Guide
These newbies need guidance and sometimes help. The easy part is making a purchase and if they are not in contact with a current driver that is willing to help a little, getting on track can be difficult. This is why we started the Northeast Formula Vee site to help as much as we can. If someone contacts us through the site where ever they are from even it it's not in the northeast we try to put them in touch with someone that is close to them that can give some guidance and information to help them get on track.Quote:
Originally Posted by fvhopeful
I really like this idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Curtis
The F1200 series in Ontario has a Drivers Association (FTDA). Drivers pay a membership fee to the association. This membership fee goes into funding Website, Car shows, Advertising, We inventory wheels for the drivers, Trophy for year end, year end banquets....
Jay - What classes is it easier to win at the top level? Anyone can go out and buy a top level FV package for less than 20K. Other than that, it just takes talent, seat time and dedication.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnovak
I can't see the a runoffs "winning" SM, FE, SRF, etc... going for less than 20K.
One of the things which might be of help promoting the class and encouraging new drivers would a series of introductory type videos which could include a small part of our history, perhaps some mechanical info, etc. Perhaps such a series would be a " trailer:" for the movie in current production. It could belocated on u tube or on one of the vee sites established already. This approach is informative, cheap, appropriate to 1200 and f/v alike, and would allow us to put our best foot forward while we settle the future of the class matters elsewhere.
No Negative Waves
Rob Henley
D13 Number 64
What would it take to run a street race? Sometimes it can be difficult to get people to come to the race track but you could also try taking the race track to the people. I'm sure it would cost a lot to run, getting all the safety barriers (maybe see if you can lease them from a pro series?), license from the city, insurance, and personnel necessary but it would probably entice a lot of racers to come out and try something different and would definitely draw a crowd. One thing I can say for certain, everyone in the city of Lancaster knows exactly what a shifter kart is.
What is surprising, and I think we cannot forget. There are probably many drivers that would do excellent or even win at the run-offs that do not go. For one reason or another financial, time, can't be bothered...whatever the reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs
There is some amazing driving talent I have personally seen that has never be there. You can have a 20K national package, means nothing if you can't drive it. it is what FV is supposed to be about, the driver...
As you said. Seat time, dedication, talent....
How much keeps people coming out for every event knowing they are running for a series championship? I know the SCCA still has their divisional winners however it seems the Majors are only used by the serious racer to qualify for the Runoffs. If you took it to the bare bones that is show up at three Majors and do one practice session and you are qualified for the Runoffs.
If you look at something like the Challenge Cup then it is a series and some people make a point of showing up for all or most to continue to collect points.
The F1200 Series is similar crowning a champion at the end of the year based on overall points.
Is this something that helps get FV drivers out to a few more events? Is this something SCCA is lacking for some? Just curious.
If I get the job I'm interviewing for in Boston I'll likely be tracking down a Vee for next season. Pretty much because none of the other classes have people in them, and I can afford to run there. It won't be the class I end up in long term I hope, but looks like fun in the mean time. It's worth noting I intend to race regionals, not majors/runoffs. I'd rather be out there more than racing in higher profile races. If I can afford to race higher profile events, I'd probably run more car and go back to regionals.
Currently I run a Miata at track days and have several friends that do the same. A few of us have discussed racing with intentions to move in that direction. There's a lot to like about track days. They're cheap(er), easy, frequent (good if you travel a lot), and still a lot of fun. They don't have annoying tech rules, and you don't have to worry about getting outspent by the guy towing a Miata with a semi truck. I suspect drifting's the same way. I want to race, but at this point I can't exactly give you a good reason why. 900 page rule books don't help.
I also wanted to start out slow. Track days allow for you to go out, figure out what you're doing and learn. I bought the Miata because that wasn't an option in a Vee/F500/FF car. One of my strongest recommendations is to work with local track day organizers to find a home for actual race cars. Then work to recruit at the same events. Also, documenting what it actually costs would be good as well as breaking that down per line item. I hear numbers of anywhere between $1000 and $6000 quoted for the same class of cars, how are you supposed to budget for that wide of a swing?
The engine rules are laughable. The fact that people are paying anywhere between $5-10,000 for a 60hp engine is insane, especially in a "budget" class where cars run positive camber in turns. The SCCA rules (not just Vee, but many series) seem to be a guide to spend the most money making the least power for any engine family out there. I don't know what the fix is, but if people start reading about these costs, it'll be another reason to go play somewhere else. In the mean time, modern brakes, beams that are better designed, etc, aren't allowed.
Also, to my eye the newish cars racing in Europe are prettier than the cars running here. I'm not sure what the difference is, but I suspect it has to do with the maximum vehicle size and floor pan requirements. Maybe it shouldn't matter, but to me it does, and I suspect I'm not alone. When you're talking about spending a pretty good chunk of change on a toy I'd prefer something I love the lines on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spengo
I believe we need to get butts in the racing seats, not the bleacher seats.
Street racing shifter karts is a good show. They are wicked violent and make noise. There's lots of them and the racing is close.
Watching a FV race is b o r i n g. Get folks who have raced 4cycle or restricted clutch karts to give it a try and let them know how cheap it can be and the class will grow.
Don't promote it as a stepping stone/rung in the ladder. Promote it to these karters in their mid 20's+ that know they aren't likely to race for a profession but would like to continue the life-long racing hobby without breaking the bank.
Somebody with a FV go to a kart track, find a young adult with a kart and offer to trade seat time in the kart for seat time in the FV. Just a thought.....
Try during the winter season when there aren't any big points series going on, someone will definitely want to give it a go then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Sorry but will have to re-butt this comment. When you have a good pack race in FV/F1200 it is amazing to watch, especially when all cars are running close, constantly passing, or crossing the finish line 4 wide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
But we need more buts in more seats to ensure this is always the case.
We'll have to agree to disagree. It is much, much, much more exciting when that happens for the participants than it is the spectators. The only spectators excited at a FV race are friends and family.Quote:
Originally Posted by nbrigido
A street race of vees would be excruciatingly painful to watch. IMO for a street race to be exciting the "street course" must provide speeds that are very similar or exceed what the cars would see on a more typical track for their design.
True most of the races I have wanted have been from "in the car" dam they were exciting...But isn't that what counts.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
We have been wanting to put a couple of cars together for rentals, just never get around to it after working on my own car. I think this winter we might finally get around to it. I'd love to have a few rental cars available for 2016. We'll see if it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
Yes, that's why we need them to try it before they see it. If they see it first, they won't want to try it. If they try it first, they won't care what it looks like to spectators. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by nbrigido
Patrick,
I just want to address some of these points. I think you might be over simplifying some aspects of club racing and FV. It seems you are not alone with these opinions and maybe it'll help for others that might see this post in the future.
I hope you get the job in Boston, we would love to have you join the NEFV group.
I'm curious what you consider to be annoying tech rules? If you feel safety related tech rules are annoying, such as roll bar sizing and mounting specs, harness mounting, helmet, fire suit etc...you should understand there are hundreds of good reasons why they have become standard and usually due to someone getting hurt. I think you'll find most all racers that race wheel to wheel, appreciate those annoying tech rules. Personally, I wouldn't do a track day in a car with only a 3 point retractable belt and no roll-bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff
Do you consider performance related tech rules annoying? Imagine spending all your money and time to show up to a race with a legal car, only to be beat by an obvious cheater. If there were no rules, racing would be even more expensive. That 900 page rule book is there so you can feel reasonably assured you will be competing and competed against fairly. It's part of the game...otherwise we're just driving around a track.
No two racers spend the same amount of money. There is no single price tag you can put on the cost of racing anything. Some people like to do things with great extravagance and some will be bare bones. If you try to budget for racing, without ever doing it, you'll never get started. Choose a level of competition you think you might want to aim for and figure out what you need to achieve it. There will always be someone that spends more money than you and that is one fact of racing you can count on. That said, per weekend, $1000 to $6000 is a pretty good, though very high-ish, range if you are doing Majors in a FV. Regional racing will be less than $1000, but not by much.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff
Yes, that is a lot of money for motors. It is where the class is with motors at this point but $5k isn't a lot to spend on a restricted rules, racecar motor. Plain and simple. It is also one reason why the class has survived as long as it has. But if you are planning on regionals, how many motors do you need? You certainly don't need a $10k motor and maybe not a $5k motor. A $4500 motor will be good and it'll probably come with your $8k car. Suddenly it's not so bad is it? You'll have to rebuild it every once in a while...but maybe it'll turn into a $10k motor someday! Again, you are paying for some of those "annoying tech" rules that keep the competition close and keep you coming back for more. Because that's what racing is. It's about competition. As expensive as it is, $5k is still cheaper than any other racecar motor. So we need to stop blabbering about $10k 60hp motors when they are far...very far and few in between. It's like complaining about $25 hamburgers. There will always be someone spewing **** about how stupid we all are for spending $10k for motors, when in reality they are talking out their ass and have no clue about the class. So stop listening to them. If you are going to do regionals you will not need a $10k motor.
You're right they do look nice but it shouldn't matter. When you are racing wheel to wheel, digging deep inside your soul to take yourself to limits you never thought you were capable of, it doesn't matter what your car looks like. Because nobody will understand where you just were and what you were doing, and the looks of your car won't convince them otherwise, no matter what it looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff
Soon you will be looking at Ferraris and Porsches and think "what a waste of money". Best of all, you'll begin to "love the lines" of a Ford F350, because you'll think about how nice your ugly racecar and trailer will tow behind it.
Anyways, the internet is great for a lot of things, but there is a whole bunch of BS that gets written by people that often are not even racing in the class. They don't realize that what they write, often gets read by potential racers. A potential racer such as yourself will Google themselves right out of the dream before they even get to the track and see for themselves what really happens. In my opinion, that is one very real reason for club racings decline in the past decade.
Again, if you come out east, please come to a race and hang out with the North East Vee guys and we can inject you with the FV KoolAid. If you move near Boston, you'll have NHMS, Lime Rock, Palmer Motorsports Park, Watkins Glen and Thompson Speedway all within a few hours drive.
AP
Okay, my previous post was a bit hyperbolic and not all of the statements apply to me. Much of my post was on how to get people into this.
My track car has all the safety gear. But to spend a weekend having fun you don't have to build the car around a set of performance rules. I get that performance isn't equalized, but if all you want to do is learn and have fun that doesn't matter and it's a lot cheaper. To get bigger fields you need to convince people that the competition is more valuable than the money you have to spend to get there.
In all likelihood if I need a new engine I'll build it myself for as little cash as possible. At the beginning the weak point in the car will be me, not the engine. That said, the fact that the rules allow for a pretty heavily reworked engine that at the end of the day only makes 60hp is pretty hard to stomach. Especially when there's a bigger, more common, more powerful engine available. For some people this will be a bigger issue.
As to the race weekend cost breakdown; I've been doing a lot of reading (roughly a year) across a number of classes and I'm just getting a feel for what percentage are race fees, what percentage are tires, what percentage is travel, etc. I've got a pretty good idea of what racing a small formula car in New England and Northern California will cost, but that's after a lot of research and I suspect many people would give up. Putting together some resources based on various people in the area would be a good starting point.
For what it's worth, the speed at which I learned accelerated rapidly as soon as I started racing in a giant field of equalized vehicles. I gained more driving knowledge in a couple months of racing than I did in a couple years of track days and autocross. Driving around against the clock can help you get the feel for things but if you want to be truly fast you gotta get on the grid and battle side by side for that checkered flag. :checkered:Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff
I don't post much, but have a few points to make, or remake.
First, everyone who wants to race, ends up racing somewhere.
I recently re watched the 1980 FV and FF races on youtube; it is the era where the world began for me in racing, so to speak.
A funny thing happened to that simple racing world over the next decade. The normal progression we had from entry level to the top was kidnapped.....about the time that Swift showed up in FF.
Barber Saab, Barber Dodge, Star Mazda and the current Mazda website shows their interests.
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wcss...heelseries.htm
Add in some pro FFord, F2000 and FV series and other sanctioning bodies on the APEX speed forum since the mid 80's and the kidnapping was on..
The SCCA helped with FE and other entry level classes to kidnap the future FV and FF racers... and take their money. As Mazda says--start in Karts, and rise through the Mazda system.
As I originally said, everyone who wants to race, be it drag, dirt, pavement, Road Racing, the man gets there, but he does not find FV/FST or FF, easily anymore. They are out there but kidnapped.
If we need to find the reason why or the enemy--it is all on the APEX Speed forums...we have the met the enemy and it is us....or the many options for us.....
It used to be so simple-- FV, FF, F2000/FSV and maybe Atlantic.......
There may actually be more racers involved today than in 1980.....isn't that a hoot?
They weren't kidnapped; they ran away.
I always thought this would be an interesting exercise. If an outside consultant from another Motorsports outfit, say IMSA, with lots of knowledge on how to run a class or division of racing but with NO ulterior motives, contacts or friends in FV, no parts to sell, etc. was hired and told to revitalize FV for the 21st century, what do you think his rules package would be? Forget setting up booths at trade shows or ads in magazines, but the Formula for Formula Vee. If people who are posting on this Forum could honestly and objectively put themselves in that position and not be afraid of posting their true conclusions, I bet a consensus will emerge. There is a good chance that consensus is what should be done.
I have already done it, I want to see how close I am.
Thanks,
Garry
I agree that part of the problem is that there are far to many classes. Why? You don't see this in Europe its more along the lines of 4 cylinder 2.0 or less. Or hatchback...
The SCCA structure should be closer to 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder. Formula vee, Forumula Ford, Formula Atlantic or some other.
I think less confusion will help out tremendously. Karts are easy to buy and run and the classes are simple. Same with oval track and motorcycles. Besides that the membership/license program to all these other forms of racing is much much more simple and it costs less to enter.
I'm talking myself into leaving vee!
The 24 hours of Lemons is insanely popular. This is the closest to SCCA type racing I can think of as far as safety gear and car prep so why are they so popular? I think its because you can bring any type of car you want and they put you in a class you don't have to figure out how to build a car to specs. Once you've gotten your feet wet then you can mod the car but your initial investment is low and guess what? You don't need to pay membership fees and go to driving school. This is ease of access again something that kart/dirt/oval/chump have over the SCCA.
People want simple. If they can't find it on the internet in 5 minutes or less forget about it. As previously stated the GCR is very large and I agree most of it is safety related and needed but the license process along with the GCR and entry costs are enough to scare people away in my opinion.
Do current SpeedSport owners get a discount?Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering
This is an interesting thought. My guess is that the IMSA guy would try to make what works for that class work for FV. This approach is constantly applied in the business world by very bright people and it ends up failing almost every time. What makes it fail is that they don't understand all the reasons why the approach was successful for them in the first place, and without that understanding they can't figure out how to adjust it to fit other situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Sharp
This is why the approaches we are using in the NE to grow the class may not work well for other areas in the US.
Having said that, it does not mean we should not try. John
But there should be a common theme everywhere: Less expensive and simpler to adjust/maintain. If someone read one of Brian's posts, they would think a FV would need $5,000 in new parts and a thousand microscopic adjustments if you changed the color.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpetillo
Ok, as funny as it looks, it still hits home. In this day and age this video would not cut it..low res, no cool music, but still "on point" and where it should be. Thank Ray for pulling this up again. Remembered it is also on the F1200 website.
Steve Davis I think is working on the 2015 Version. As we discussed before, "the view form in the car is different" somethines we need to show that experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvC6TjhUMnM
At the end of the day, I think each region will need to "organize" themselves, to ensure that their member needs are being met.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpetillo
But we should be able to take our cars to any track or any event, involving FV and race. We need the car counts, with that everything else becomes easier.
Time to start listing the ideas, borrowing from each other, and marketing the series to the potential racer.
Wave our arms in the air and say we are here...
I have attached a copy of the Brochure we have been using to get the message across. Again is in the process of being updated.
For curiosity, is there any other FV associations in the US? We found that the Association has been beneficial for the drivers and the series. They come across as a voice for the drivers, as well utilizing membership fee to execute a lot of what we have all been discussing here.Quote:
Originally Posted by nbrigido
ONe of the hardest thing I have noticed is having people to commit time to execute alot of the ideas, not becasue they don't care, but time is tight. let's face it they pay sort of sucks..
But if regions, groups, areas, how ever could get together the execution and consensus on many items would be easier, drivers would not feel alone, it becomes a source on information for potential drivers. Elect president, treasurer. It seems to help.
Just a thought
Garry, I appreciate your posts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Sharp
I don't recall Brian recommending $5K in new parts, although many others have certainly been greatly exaggerating the costs involved. They're describing a different class than the one I know. That bothers me because those kinds of exaggerations really turn people off from considering the class when they come to sites like this for information. But, this has been going on for years and I don't expect it to change. The earlier post by ajpastore was pretty much on the mark across the board with regard to costs.
But, with regard to your other point, many people like to tinker. We all think we have an idea that will make our cars better or our preparation and process better to help us beat the other guy - that includes the microscopic adjustments and buying or building just the right parts to pull it off on whatever budget - always looking for a better solution. We all do it to some extent, it's just that Brian and several others are just the culmination of that. This is one reason why we aren't a spec class - to allow curiosity and development to improve the breed. Without that latitude, some people would not apply. I'd love to have the time and opportunity to do that more. The competition is not only when behind the wheel.
But, I again agree with you - that FVs are mostly less expensive and simpler to adjust/maintain and this is the hallmark of what we like to promote. John
In the NE with the NEFV (http://nefv.org) we aren't officially an association. So far we've been able to run and fund things outside of forming an official association. I guess we act like one, otherwise. What you describe you do with F1200 is very similar to what we have done, and how we get it done. Yes, this approach has been successful for us as well. JohnQuote:
Originally Posted by nbrigido
It's amazing how much FV is like F1. The guys at the top don't want the rules changed because they have the expertise and budget to win. At the same time those same rules make it too expensive for lower budget teams to survive, or new teams to get in.
The problem is you can't run something like this with a "board' or "committee". I think it was Christian Horner who said F1 needs to be a dictatorship. That dictator decides what's best for the success of the class as a whole and if you don't like the rules, then don't race. That's kind of what I was getting at with the IMSA guy.
Thanks.
Garry
Well getting the word out I don't think should be that hard but even if you get people to come to the track once they find out how expensive it really is then they will want to go somewhere else.
That is why I think the Challenge Cup series is working and the NE FV association is working as well. But the reality of what it cost to get a car which can vary greatly and the real cost to go play can be a shock when you add it up. That being said if you ask any of your friends who do any other activity or sport what the spend and they honestly add it up they would also be shock what it cost to play softball go hunting or fishing which are nice activities but having done all of them as a kid I would chose racing any day.
Since I am a car builder I am going to give a list of what it would possibly cost to build one of my cars but don't start bitching until you think about the real costs.
Womer car kit $6800
Roxanne's headers $1000
Front beam nut to nut $1000
Transaxle nut to nut $1200
Fuel cell $800
Fire system $600
Hydraulics $400
Gauges, wiring, etc. $400
If you want me to assemble it for you add another $2-3000
So with buying most of the things already assembled you are looking at $12200 without assembling it and that doesn't include the engine. Some of the things I guessed at since I haven't built a car for awhile and don't know of the top of my head what things cost today.
There have been some of my cars for sale and the usually are in the neighborhood of $7000 complete. The ones for sale at that price should get you at the front of the grid if you are a decent driver.
So after spending anywhere between $7000 to $20000 you can have a car but don't stop there. You now need a tow vehicle and trailer and when I started I towed with my street car a 76 Datsun 280Z which I also autocrossed with and the race car an Aerodynamics that I think I paid around $2000 for also came with a trailer. So unless you are driving a street car with no power you can actually use it and just install a hitch and off you go. Get all the driving gear for what $1500-2000 and now you are ready to hit the track.
$400-500 entry fee and a couple of tanks of gas to get there and back and tent to camp in and cooler for food and beer and you could do a weekend for as little as probably $800 without buying tires. If you choose to do radials it is a one time fee for possibly 3 years and if want to do slicks which was the only option when I started in the early 80's you go to the tire pile on Sat. night and find tires better than you currently have and get them mounted the next morning for $50.
Yes if the car runs and no one hits you or you don't hit someone you will be living the life for less than $1000 for what maybe 1-2 hours of track time for a weekend! Unfortunately you know have the disease that as some say there is no cure for and unless you have a good job you will only get to play a few times a year and if you only just want to do it and are just happy to drive around at the back possibly by yourself, you are living the dream. If you did it like that which is how I started it will be a life long adventure that will have you spending most of you disposable income to pursue but I don't regret one minute of it.
So if you look at softball, hunting or fishing and actually add up their cost it would be close to the cost to go racing only you could do it more often. I don't have the answer to getting someone to commit to starting down the path all of us have chosen, but it sure has been fun and like I told a fellow co worker who ask me why I spent all of the time and money to race and my reply was when I am sitting on the rocking chair at the old folks home talking to all of the other people they will only be envious of me because I actually went out and did it while they didn't and now whish they would have.
Ed
To me, the fact that the shot callers in the SCCA watch classes steadily decline to the point of extinction and do nothing means that behind closed doors they WANT some of the older legacy classes to disappear. There can be no other explanation. Everybody complains about too many classes. One way to thin out the herd is to not feed some of them.
Garry
When you recognize there are way too many classes for SCCA to decide which ones get promotion and which ones don't, you'll understand that relying on the market to decide which class survives is the least intrusive way to manage classes. There haven't been too many successes, if any, when a top down class decision has been made.
Note to Spaceman Spiff and others, The time trials committee rewrote the rules regarding SCCA track days and if someone wants to run an open wheel car on a Club or Track Trials day, they can. Unlike NTIA, PDX and track days put on by other organizations, SCCA has several levels to do track days. On the higher TT levels, a GCR safety compliant car can run. For around $200 you can get on course, run any tire you want and get tons of track time. No side by side racing but passing zones give you a chance to run at your own pace and the clock gives you a challenge.