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Brad,
You should go back and read my post #25 in this thread, and you should have done it more thoroughly before posting your attack. I did slow down respecting the waving yellow and paid a price for it as that brought the 2 cars behind me back to me. The lack of waving directions was a BIG error by the flaggers in both incidents especially in light of the decision to no go FCY. Do your homework better before hitting the send button. Ignorance is bliss, annonimty is gutless.
Mike
If I had been in a tight race like Lew and Tim, and I saw a flag waved with the apparent disinterest and lack of concern as was being displayed at the time, I'd have assumed the road was essentially clear, and stayed on it. I might well have been killed for that interpretation. I give workers all the slack I can. I know they are volunteers and many have never had the opportunity to race themselves. I know I can't race unless they come out too. However, that was very poor flagging, and were it not for the skills of the drivers, someone could have been putting a FF into a truck bumper at 100 mph. The flagger should have been waving like there was danger involved, not like a distracted high-school cheerleader during a time-out. Someone should have been motioning the drivers away from the side of the track where the incident was, especially since that was exactly where they were headed by velocity and line. Better to wave BEFORE someone gets hurt. Don't save it for just when a driver or worker is injured. We depend on the flaggers to see and communicate with us. I hope in the future, they will communicate more effectively. We are not pros, we don't have spotters, and many of us have no radios, so the flaggers are absolutely vital to us. "Talk" LOUDER when the situation requires it. You may just save a life.
I am not fond of FCY, and with better flagging, I think staying green would have been acceptable, but not with this situation.
As for the flagger/ corner crew involved; There are few things worth doing that can not be done better with practice, and without critique, not much changes. I am glad you were there. I hope you are there next time, with an improved skill set. I hope you take this in that spirit, as WE CAN'T PLAY WITHOUT YOU! Thanks for coming out.
Frog: I like hot pickups too, but after 21 years of marraige, that referrs to Krispy-Kreem and souped up F-150s. Somewhat less exciting than the old days.
As a corner worker that was at the Runoffs for the week, I find this conversation interesting. Better yet, being at 11B when the incident at 11 took place, I find it even more interesting.
The safety team does a great job at RA, whether it be their staff or the region trucks. I have seen them do what they did at 11 1,000 times. Most of the time it goes well, sometimes it goes poorly. I would have to agree with most of you, that putting a truck there is a bad idea! I appreciate protecting the incident and the driver in harm, but at 11 one inch of a wrong line puts someone in the back of that truck. We were watching at 11B, holding our breath the whole time.
Swiftdrivr, appreciate your input and comments. We do need to flag the incident and send the correct message. For some color, let me explain a bit how 11 is set up as a station.
Find a flag that you can wave in your yard and do it with vigor. Now, restrict yourself to a 2 foot by 3 foot hole in the chainlink fence. Then, put that hole that you are waving the flag through at about waste height. So, now you either need to sit down, kneel over or shove your whole body out the hole to wave it affectively. In addition, as you are waiving the flag, have a buddy try to lean through the same hole and direct traffic to drivers right.
To simmulate 11A, lean up against the back of your couch with the top of the back cushion being armpit height. Reach your arm out over the seats of the couch and try to wave the flag. Now, your hole is 1 foot in height and couch/guardrail has no give to it.
For a final example. Go to any area that is largely fenced in with chainlink. Sit down in a chair at the end of the fence and look along the chain link towards the other end. Try to look down as far as you can and gauge your visibility. Maybe have some people start at the opposite end and run towards you to see if you can make out their face or even the color of their shirt.
These are not excuses at all and you are 100% correct, we need to communicate the situation. Some places are just harder than others to do it at and unfortunately, 11 is one of them.
We want you guys to be 100% safe, that's our goal and passion.
Thanks for that detailed description! I'd say that there are more drivers than flaggers posting on Apexspeed, so it's great to get your point of view. It sounds like RA should modify the station (if possible) so that the workers can signal more effectively and remain safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by cprevenas
David,
What happened at the Kink? I presume you are OK?
cprevenas,
I appreciate the feedback. I was actually referring to the T3 incedent. I didn't see the T11 flagger so I can't comment, but now I can see the other side. Thanks for keeping us safe!
Is there a place on the internet I could go to see the video mentioned? Sounds like a race worth watching..
Mike,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Scanlan
you have a PM
Brad
Tim,Quote:
Originally Posted by TimH
Here: http://www.speedcasttv.com/scca/#/races/309
You'll need to drag it ahead to about 266 as this is the video for all the Friday races and FF is last.
Back in the day (Bruce May) I remember once at the 1 minute mark on the grid they pulled us out of our cars so we could be addressed by a steward. I believe that grid was 48 deep. Steward starts off with look you A...h..s when you see a yellow you slow down. I am not kidding. I can appreciate Mike feeling that way. But as a driver first it is more than tempting. I have personally been on fire didn't know it, radioed to stop for smoke and as I stop poof! Guess what happens I bail inbetween stations and here comes 300lbs with a 15 pounder! Bless them but....
I did have a national flagger lic right up until I was the one putting out a fire and someone comments that I deserved that. I was working a corner and that's your comment! Thanks to those workers cause the poor guy may still have a car left.
Should we slow down. Is it too tempting when you will not be black flagged. If that were reality frankly it would have happened in this incident don't you think? So from a drivers POV what do you think.
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beartrax
Great race. Congrats to everyone!
Horrible call by race control. I'm all for not going full course if you don't have to, but two incidents, in two dangerous places, at the same time, and you don't go full course?!?!
Watching the video - fantastic race, wow - but seeing T2 and the Kink like that makes me wonder if I wasn't fortunate that my throttle linkage broke . . . Yes, racers don't like full course yellows, but . . . there are things we like even less, for sure.
The guys I talked to after the race couldn't understand why there wasn't a full course yellow - hindsight makes me wonder the same thing.
When I hit about where David did a couple years ago, the first face I saw was Brad Ellingson's, who was working rescue; he asked me if I was ok and I replied that I didn't know (duh!) - I want to thank Brad and cprevenas for their perspectives from working corners/rescue.
I paddocked with David and spoke with him Saturday. He was sore but fine. Already analyzing the incident and trying to learn from it. Surprise, surprise.
Congratulations to the FF crowd again. I got to see a terrific race live and now on video.
Umm...I've been doing this driving thing for a bit. I've also been a flagger at everything up to and including Formula 1 races.
There are a couple of things at work; 1) generally accepted protocall is "waving on the pavement, standing on the grass", but thats not quite what the GCR says. 2) As a driver, generally I want to know what's ahead and whether its on the track or not-1 above tells me that. I also want to know how serious it is and the actions of the workers; body language, arm motion, flag waving agitation all give me instant information. If the incident is next to the track and there are flaggers, E crew and the drivers all in harms way- wave the flag even if its not "on the pavement". What annoys me is a waving flag for a car parked 100ft off the track in no one's way (a full course yellow for such a car is infuriating and I've seen it done because of track requirements). It just requires a little common sense when to go FCY. Race control makes the call but relies on the station to relay accurate and timely information.
At the end of the day, as a driver you have to pay close attention to a standing yellow, and stop racing for a waving yellow no matter what until you see what it is. AND...you cannot assume the yellow you saw at that corner last lap is for the same incident. As a corner worker, you should inpart as much information as you can to the drivers without breaching the established and announced protocall. Also, what might appear to a worker to be a race car at full speed might in fact not be: back off 10% and the car is completely under control as far as most drivers are concerned.
I might add that the F&C group at R-A is among the best I've seen anywhere.
Swiftdrivr, my bad I was wrapped up in the one I saw. Really, at 2, you could do jumping jacks and flips and wave the flag. There is a ton of room and it should have been a huge flag.
Bob Wright is correct, we have lost our way a bit with standing versus waving. We are now in the habit of when ever people become exposed, whether that is on track or at the back of a gravel trap, we go waving. Sends a confused and inconsistent message to you drivers, which doesn't help anything.
As a driver, I think that this comment of Bob Wright's is spot on: "I also want to know how serious it is and the actions of the workers; body language, arm motion, flag waving agitation all give me instant information."
We are doing a number of things as we drive around the track, and we pick up cues in a number of ways, some of them almost subconsciously. Example: during testing for the Runoffs, a yellow flag at T8 was lazily shoved in front of the wall, just 'cuz. Every time I passed it, just the flicker of yellow made me take a bit off coming into T8. This is how brains work - taking in information and doing something with it.
Urgency in the corner station will trigger a response among most drivers. Unfortunately, if this situation is urgent, a lack of urgency at the station will also trigger a (different) response.
I'd never realized what the flagging "quarters" were for the knik; after reading cprevenas's post, I looked closely at the video and see exactly what is meant. That is very good information to have approaching the kink if there's a yellow. Thanks again.
Jim, your comments are SPOT ON !!! SCCA, please take note.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
Brad "Batman" Ellingson is one of our CenDiv SCCA treasures, Brad, thanks for your seasoned comments, but most of all your tireless volunteer help watching over all of our drivers.
Kautz Racing
www.kautzracing.com
Brad's actually a pretty good driver too. (he'll never let me hear the end of this) :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by pwd911s
I don't know if I'd go that far, but I appreciate the coment just the same. :D If I can't afford to race, believe me, this is the next best thing!!Quote:
"Brad "Batman" Ellingson is one of our CenDiv SCCA treasures"
Thanks Steve, that means a lot to me....and because you were brave enough to post this on a public forum, I will vow to never bring it up. ;)Quote:
Brad's actually a pretty good driver too. (he'll never let me hear the end of this)
A bit late to reply; but full on congrats go out to Tim, Paul, Don and Nick. Tim said he struggled with a loose car and fought it out neck and neck all the way with Lewis, but that's what a champ does. He overcomes adversity. Well done both of you. Sorry I couldn't join you on the podium, but Russ, nice job as well.
I actually had mixed emotions about a full course yellow; I knew we could catch up the leaders if they went FCY but I also knew Russ and I would be under fire from Reid if they did. Either way, I felt Russ and I did a good job of slowing down just enough to make it safely by, but not so much to dampen our race.
I did a little writeup on my blog:
http://ethanshippert.blogspot.com/20...d-elkhart.html
Again, congrats to the top 3-
Reading Ethan's blog makes it clear to me why I'm fortunate to know him,and to have raced vees with him before his lunacy lead him to ford. Oh wait...I got a ford too....Congrats on a great season.
[FONT=Verdana]It started in late October, Paul and I decided the program needed some big changes. So the plan was laid out and with the graces and support of team sponsor Glenn Moore, owner of Braeburn Thermostats and indoor air quality products the journey began. Ed Midgley and I loaded up the Piper and headed for Gainesville GA. Don Sievenpiper began the task of making room for the Honda, making a little more room for me and cleaning up some aero issues. I began my personal fitness quest. Ed would fly us down to Don's numerous times over the next four months to spend long weekends working on the car. Nick Fuhs joined us in January to take care of the welding...guys an artist fabricator and welder. Dale Carter was commissioned to machine the custom bell housing...absolute racing jewelry. In early April Ed & I once again headed for Georgia this time with truck and trailer to collect the project. Once back at the race shop, Paul was anxious to dig in and get the project done. We spent what seemed like an eternity fitting the body and prepping for paint. Ken Boyce of Boyce Body Werks had his talented painter Kevin spray the show car quality paint. Honda helped with our metric teething pains and even threw in a red valve cover. John Taylor of Two Dogg helped with the brakes and bearings. It ended in late April, the car 15 pounds lighter and I had lost 23.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]This level of support is overwhelming to me. The countless hours Don, Ed, Paul, Nick and John put into the project is staggering. Then they all volunteer their family and vacation time to spend a week in Elkhart Lake with me. I am so fortunate to have this talented group on my team. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I owe huge gratitude to all my talented friends and sponsors, without your help this simply wouldn't have happened. I also need to thank Honda for the technical support and an excellent lunch all week. Finally, thank you to my racing peers for all the kind words. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Lew, one hell of a race!!! by far the hardest I've worked in a race car all 13 laps![/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Ethan, No, YOU'RE the man! I'd trade it all in a minute to have that kind of relationship with my father...you rock![/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Tim [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]FF88[/FONT]