Opinions become fact on the internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom Duncan
Responses to replies in order of appearance:
Bill,
As I outlined in a reply in the "Proposal..." thread, if AR were to get the contract I think they would have to raise their game, which would increase the cost of the tire. They would have to tighten up quality control, provide at track support and a knowledge base, and make a rain tire.
Tom Duncan
Tom, I love you like a brother but do we know the price will go up? How many times do we read someone's opinion and take it for gospel? Perhaps the inconsistent size, compounds, etc. between lots can be tightened up by merely getting AR to look at their manufacturing process? I will admit the nonsense the AR guy gave you about bead seat pressures being at the heart of their size issues from lot to lot was not encouraging.
As far as the rain tire issue, I will admit given the infrequent rain we deal with I am probably less sensitive to this issue than I need to be for a National tire. I am pretty sure if half our race weekends had some sort of rain, I would want rain tires that worked as perfectly as possible on my car setup. Out here, many take the occasional rain race as a novelty but certainly less serious than the normal dry race. So I understand and support the notion that any vendor that gets selected must supply an acceptable rain alternative.
As far as someone putting a number like .5 seconds on the cycle to cycle times for any tire, let alone an AR, well, I just plain disagree. This has not been my experience after I got to know the AR tire. As you know, I keep pretty detailed records.
As to those that have pointed out the obvious that we already have a class with a hard tire I have to say, excellent point. I really have been thinking about my tire budget for next season and have serious second thoughts about my decision to move to FF from CF. The racing in CF was as close (at least here in the SF Region) the cost about as low as it gets and still be racing. When I made the comment about a spec hard tires being an IQ test I was referring to myself and my numbskull move to buy that DB6.
To be honest, I love how cool that DB6 is, but I am already missing the no brainer costs of my Crossle. Maybe I will just go back to CF. My total budget for 12 races in CF will be less than my tire budget will be in FF.
Anybody want a really low time DB6, zero hour Loyning, needs a little cosmetic stuff to make it perfect, just ignore the invoices from your tire guy. :mad:
Camel's came from this kind of stuff..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom Duncan
Bill,
However I do disagree with you in calling the idea that too much bead seat pressure could be contributing to dimensional differences "nonsense" in the AR. It has been clearly shown that one can easily change the dimension of the tire by doing just that, why would the same physics not apply when mounting?
The .5 seconds estimate (suggested difference between a first and second cycle AR) is from my own experience of the tire and also discussions with other users. So what is your estimation?
In our region if the arguments for a medium compound tire rule to stay in place prevail (or even go away and we go back to an open tire rule) I think we should still accommodate those that have FF's but want to run on a harder tire due to budget limitations by creating a subclass open to the AR133 and Hoosier R60A, at least for next year. As a regional championship we can do that, as we have done with the GY430 rule that has been in place for the last 3 seasons. Of the drivers (7 of the 19 that ran last year) I have interviewed all have been in favor of the idea.
Tom Duncan
Tom, the reason I call the bead seat pressure answer to the inconsistent sizes from lot to lot on the AR tires nonsense is the problem is largely a lot to lot issue. In addition, the bead seat pressure used by most tire dealers tends to be pretty consistent. Finally, putting 50 lbs in a small tire alone doesn't do that much, you have to get it hot as well (leaving it in the sun with the high pressure). The inconsistent sizes on the AR tires from production code to production code is a quality control issue, not a bead seat issue. GY and Hoosier also have these inconsistent results on their bias ply tires, it is just smaller because they have better quality control. Anyway, this is a moot point because it is clear the AR will not be a National spec tire.
On the .5 second dropoff, without getting into things I have learned in the last season of keeping detailed notes, I can only ask you to go back and find out how many CF track records have been set in our region in the last 4 years on sticker tires. That will give you some idea of the scope of cycle to cycle dropoff nonsense.
On our local front. I just would rather not have yet another class, FFX? If we at the region level can't agree on a hard compound spec tire why on earth would anyone think it is a good idea to try and get one Nationally? Creating a class for every subset of tweak someone wants is what got SCCA to the alphabet soup nature of its run groups now.
Frankly, I am thinking maybe the SF region is about to lose one of its potential FFX drivers. I will say it again, anyone looking for a low time DB6? CF is mo betta.
It is always darkest before the dawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darren Brown
For what it is worth, I ran eight nationals this year (excluding the run-offs), and used 4 sets of tires. That is not a new set every race and I was more than competitive with three and four cycle old tires. Albeit I did have to work on the set up a bit more and drive a little different. My point is new soft tire are not a necessity, but they do help and feel great :D.
Darren
I know I have been pretty sarcastic at times on this thread, but I say this in all seriousness, to run 8 Nationals competitively on four sets of GY160's total is a pretty nice accomplishment.
Although we will likely be running on GY430's next season, if I could get 2 flag lap capable races per set, I would be so thrilled my blood pressure on the hard compound subject would drop about 90%.
I realized it is the same challenge!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darren Brown
Thanks Bill,
The whole reason I can get that tire life is the way I run qualifying. I will only run until I get the lap I need to start on the front row. My normal time on the track for qualifying is probably around 10 minutes or less (on tracks I know). That saves a lot of time on my tires. The other thing I do if I get held up getting around some cars, I run the rest of the lap at 80% until the last corner so not to burn the tires down on a lap I know will be slow.
Is that strategy for everyone, probably not. I do think a lot guys burn their tires down for no reason just to finish the session.
Yes I know if I had a hard tire I would not have to worry about all this, but this is part of the fun for me.
Darren
Darren,
I understand totally, I spend most of my time thinking about how to use my tires more intelligently. Guys I race against walk by my pit and shout, "Love your tires!", kidding me. While I am sitting there, cleaning the pickup off, looking for problems, looking for what they are telling me about how the car is handling, how I am driving. It is another dimension to racing, to some degree something you do within yourself.
Last year after I started to figure out the setup on my car (Crossle CF) and started running pretty good, I looked around and noticed some of the fast guys were getting lots of cycles out of their tires. I set about learning my tires and how to make them last as long as possible, while going ever faster.
I am in the fortunate position I can afford new tires if I choose, but the challenge to learn the tires to go faster and not be buying new tires was so much fun. In the process I learned a lot about tires, setup and driving at max velocity while still loving your tires. That is what struck me about what you had done. It does add another dimension to racing, this tire challenge.
Anyway, thanks for sharing the results. It helps keep things in perspective, reminds me what I am doing in this racing thing.
BTW, I was running on hard tires when I did all the above. So it is the same. The only difference is the number of cycles you get between new sets. Love your tires!
Everyone start at the same point.
Dan,
The really cool thing about a newcomer who is smart is you teach them everything you know and then when they start going faster than you, they move over and let you by.
Remember this last lesson It is really important! ;)
Most gusy don't even know how to take their foot off the brake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darren Brown
Bill,
Question for you. Once you set the car up the way you liked it, how much longer did the tires last compared to before you really concentrated on tires? Is this the 430s or the American Racer tire you are talking about?
I forgot to finish my post, the first tire guy I dealt with used the line "love your tires and they will take care of you", funny that people were saying that to you.
thanks
Darren
Darren,
The tires I was talking about in my post above are AR 133's. Before running CF on AR's I ran FF on GY160/430's where it always seemed impossible to run up front on a set that had more than about 3 cycles. More on that later.
When I came to CF, the first season I spent learning to set the car up (chasing your tail in circles every time you changed a single thing like ride height, etc.) and also driving the car on the hard tires, it is different. As John LaRue so aptly pointed out, when the track conditions start to turn a little, the work load goes up pretty fast on hard tires.
After I got going and could keep the fastest guys in our region within range, I started to notice most of them were not putting new tires on each race or so. In fact the fastest guy in the class would often buy a single tire or a takeoff to run the rest of a weekend on a set of tires he had ran for many. many races. When I came into CF I carried all the normal notions that a tires fastest lap was its first and it was all down hill from there, so I was buying tires way too frequently.
That is when I decided I needed to learn a lot about tires in general and specifically a lot about how to make the tires work to their optimum and also how to keep them working to their optimum. I spent a lot of time talking to people like Richard Pare, Ron Chisholm, the guys in the region that ran fast and also got a lot out of their tires and then set about a strategy to manage my tires. This included really getting in touch with setup (most guys think setup is all about lap times, but you can run many different setups to yield a fast lap, but probably only one of those will treat the tires best), how I drove the car (especially in certain corners where the tires were under the greatest stress) and also in the case of the AR's what a given set (or pair) was telling me about themselves (AR tires are a little inconsistent, so you also have to get to know the specific tire a little, some will work better at Laguna (low grip, not very abrasive), some better at TH (high grip, very abrasive), etc.) I also learned some processes I do to the tires between races that really seems to help them stay fresher longer and most importantly helps in getting the older tires up to temp quickly in challenging temps/grip. This makes a big difference (thanks Richard Pare).
Anyway, what all this did was get me really in touch with my tires. It had the added benefit of also getting me in closer touch with my driving, setup and approach to running sessions I never had before. To many, all this would probably seem to be all too much, taking something that is relatively simple and over complicating it. For me, it was a satisfying learning experience, one I hope translates this season as I move back to FF and will be much more challenged to get even 2 races out of a set of stickies. I will also be running against the Porter cars that are basically the same cars Neil has won 3 Runoffs with (not to mention Tom Duncan, Dave Stillwell and a couple newbie's that will be coming on strong).
The problem with all these debates is guys want to keep it simple and get an simple answer. It is like the guy that says, "hard tires won't bring more drivers to the class", or "it is the cost of tires that are driving people away" or "open wheeled racing is in decline because of Tony George" or... The truth is always infinitely more complex and will not be answered with a simple one liner. Kind of like the mess we call Washington, everyone wants a bumper sticker answer to a problem that can't even be quantified in an unabridged dictionary sized tome.
Anyway, I hope somewhere in that rambling post, I answered your question. Wish me luck next season while I will be trying to "love my softer tires!" Ha!
New thread from Marc's suggestion
Branching off from a suggestion by Marc (mblanc) in reply #63 of the "...your forum awaits" thread, I have started a new thread inorder to "hear from those that are running a hard compound tire on a 'modern' push-rod or rocker FF (we know they work fine on CF cars) as that is the type of car being addressed by this effort."
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36991
Tom Duncan
