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There is nothing wrong with SCCA using its clout to work a deal/discount for the racer, however in this instance the point being made is that SCCA subsidized the car. That type of activity is not appropriate. If they are going to subsidize those cars why not every other new car?
While part of the job is to work on behalf of the membership in collective procurement, it needs to be done in an honest, open, and forthright manner.Quote:
Wow, so all along the SCCA was trying to get us a good deal on racecars! Someone should be thanked. Isn't that the club's job? To use the collective purchasing power of all its members to get us cheaper things (insurance, track fees, cars, etc)?
If all the allegations are true then they were subsidizing the class, since after all its is a spec series.Quote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
Additionally they were doing it at a time when they could have taken the lead in the open wheel feeder series and grown the club. That is their job. Due to politics, everything was delayed and now you have Star Mazda, Formula BMW, and Formula TR (all spec series!) diluting this market.
Why is everyone against building a successful single-make open wheel series with affordable cars? Apparently the club leadership can see that this is currently the most viable and successful option (SM, SRF) to grow the club.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrace27
Then spend your own money, not the clubs!!
The entire purpose of the club is to collect members money as dues, then decide how to spend it in their interest!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by LJennings
I still have no idea how people can think that the club spending money to provide us with a low cost, reliable, and fast race series is bad.
Ah yes - the Socialist Racing mindset at work : Everyone else has an obligation to pay for my pleasure. :mad:
As with most people, when I pay dues onto an organization, I expect the dues to be spent across the board for the good of all, NOT for the good of a few, NOR at the expense of those of us who have dedicated our livelyhoods to the Club and its members.
For the Club to use ANY portion of my, or anyone elses, dues, to subsidise the racing pleasure of only a few members, or to set up private businesses AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BUSINESSES AND CLASSES THAT HAVE BUILT THE CLUB TO WHERE IT IS TODAY, is totally dishonest and unconscionable. They did it with SRF, and again with the Canned Spam, and every one of you have subsidised those screwups.
You want someone to give you money to go play with your toy? Go scrounge it up yourself, or revert to using strictly your own, like most of the rest of the Club does. Or maybe actually try out the thought process of doing only what YOU can afford, and only on YOUR money.
The rest of us are NOT here for your pleasure.
The club spends everyone's money in order to recruit new members. If they didn't do this we would all eventually pass on and there would be no members left. To recruit new members they need classes that appeal to a large number of people. You apparently think SRF is the worst thing to happen to the club, yet the numbers show it is one of the most popular classes around.
The club spends lots of money funding other people's racing habits. When you pay only a couple of hundred dollars for a race weekend you are benefiting from the low rental fees, insurance rates, and emergency medical services that the club can bargain for. Lots of people get towing incentives for traveling long distances, etc, etc. Which other of these so-called socialist practices would you be in favor of ending?
If you want to take your complaint of socialist racing and prove a point, go ahead and quit the SCCA. Just rent an entire racetrack, arrange for insurance, and hire all the workers to put on an event for just you and your car. That would be expensive wouldn't it? Want back in the club now?
In all seriousness, why are so many of you in the FSCCA forum anyway if you so anti-FSCCA?
The Club does indeed spend money to recruit new members and put on the races, but the monies for those efforts comes equally out of everybodies fees AND is spent for the benefit everybody in the Club equally.
The monies that come out of everybody's fees to subsidise YOUR racing habit by subsidising the purchase price of YOUR car DO NOT benefit everyone in the Club equally - it is solely YOUR benefit, and in fact adds an extra cost to all of the participants in the traditional established classes.
There is a place in the Club for spec cars, and most who post here have no problem with that. The problem comes in when, for some reason, you seem to think that you are entitled to partially fund your pastime on MY (and everyone else's) dime!
I thought this thread was about getting a national class for FSCCA not rehashing the debate over Enterprises that has been going on for years ad nauseam. It's history......regardless of what happened nothing can change it now.
Check your facts and numbers please.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Pare
Enterprises is profitable. That profit comes from the people who buy the spec cars. That profit pays back the loan PLUS INTEREST to the club.
Therefore, the people who buy spec cars are contributing more money to the club than everyone else (dues + purchasing cars and parts from Enterprises).
With profit going into Enterprises, Enterprises pays back the loan to the SCCA plus interest. So SCCA gets extra money that it can use to keep dues and entry fees low FOR EVERYONE. SCCA also gets new members paying dues, helping lower the fees FOR EVERYONE.
So the people paying money into Enterprises should be the ones upset that the rest of the club partially funds its pastime off of their dime!
You're right...it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckj
But when others hijack the thread with all the old Enterprises bashing you can either be quiet and let them speak ill of the class or speak up for it.
Do a search for Mr. LJennings posts and you will find that many of them are simply bashing SCCA, Enterprises, or FSCCA with no constructive input.
"in fact adds an extra cost to all participants"
By my calculations, my entire membership fee is a whopping 7/10ths of a percent of my somewhat meager racing budget. Wow!! You are right! If it were not for these FSCCA guys, I might be able to buy an extra Lug nut next year.
Since you are supplying us with the " facts", can you compute how much race entry fees would have to increase if you were to remove FSCCA and that other bunch of spec freeloaders, the SRFers? I think we're talking real money now; not the beer change you so fondly whine about.
Do you actually have any " facts" to back up your statement? Please enlighten me.
Thats actually what started this whole thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe horvath
This was a thread about getting National status for FSCCA in 2007. Then others came in, contributed nothing positive, and gave the old loan, subsidy, and anti-spec car arguements. They were challenged to show facts, but all they could come up with was a document from a race series that never happened and a tax stub from a loan.
A loan that is paid back is not a subsidy. Its profit for the one giving out the loan.
So for all the anti-FSCCA crowd that for whatever reason feel like they have to keep posting in the FSCCA forum, either show how your dues go directly into FSCCA owner's pockets or give it a rest and just go out and race!
I'm beginning to think that some members simply hate any race series that they are not participating in and want to see it fail. That's a shame.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
The first real hijack of this thread occured with your post on reliability of motorcycle engines. Until then each post either addressed the desire and process by which to get FSCCA its National status, or was a reply to a direct question from another post. If you want to get back on topic, then post something on the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrace27
I'll send my email to the CRB.
Dave
I'm flattered that some people I really like and respect read and post in our little 'ole FSCCA area.
However, I won't be defending actions or decisions prior to June 2005....nor defending the existance of Enteprises itself. That ship sailed (I was throwing rocks along with many of you 20 years ago) and you can debate what it has meant or "done" to the club forever. What I can do is make sure that we run efficiently, professionally and always always ethically.
If you don't know me PERSONALLY, don't know my Board, haven't spoken to one of our CSR's or at least a few of our active racers since I took over....you don't have ANY facts relevant to current life and the future. I love this club, I love this club MORE than I love my job (which is saying a lot). I will do what I perceive as the right thing...openly... and suffer the slings and arrrows along the way...I WILL make mistakes, learn from them and make better decisions every day than the last...if you can do better, write Chairman Porterfield of the Enterprises Board.
On subject: over 400 race entires is a NATIONAL level of commitment from our racers. We will prove it as soon as the club gives us the chance. The class creation rules and Runoffs class philosophy changed, the door was wide open, and I drove through it....that is how it is SUPPOSED to work.
Mr. Skirmants,
Thank you for your dedication and hard work
Thank you for sending the email. I have done the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Belz
Please check this thread again, I did not change the direction. Others came in and started listing reasons why they were going to run F1000 and then others started questioning their reasoning. I simply added another post trying to give them a more realistic expection of the cost of motorcycle engines converted to competition in cars.
Shortly thereafter the usual anti-spec car, ant-enterprises crowd came in and started firing away.
To which I ask again, why does the anti-FSCCA crowd feel like they have to keep posting in this forum?
Erik,
I don't believe that any of the comments were directed at actions taken since you took over.
John L.
Erik you are bad news,I blame you for a lot of left over 94 ff parts.And I blame you for the success that FSCCA is about to enjoy.You know that I for one believe that Enterprises should have been turned into a 7-11.
Would you like a "grape slooshie"? It has only been marked up 7000 percent (gosh I hope everyone finds that funny).
Hello Mr. Larue, I just had to say something as to why I wouldn't "defend our honor" over the old issues. I can be blamed for plenty of stuff....not crashing my '94 VD FF enough "back in the day" was one (I almost got a black Swift DB1 at IRP once, short breaking SOB:eek: )....I just wanted to make sure everyone knew there is a process or contact if someone really smart wanted to offer a better solution than I represent to the Enterprises BOD.
I said you were bad news.that is a "Slurpee" or have guys spec'd this already with my membership wad and changed the name?Remember guys there is nobody dead, but there are people getting killed in the world.This racin deal is a gift.
As usual I came in late,so I went back and read the other 3 pages.Bob did you give me credit for doing something right?I normally only get credit for my mistakes.Thanks if that was positive.I have to caution you that I'm also the creator of FSCCA[and yes my intention was to kill a lot of fragmentation and in the begining it was cheap and would have worked if not for my one big mistake] so do I still get the "SLURPEE"?If not thanks anyway,we are heading the right direction,that is what matters.
So Roadrace - who died and made you moderator? Try posting your real name, and if you are going to bash other contributors, you might be on firm ground yourself. I read all your previous posts. Other than praising other people's efforts, I don't see a lot of contribution there. Try actually helping someone with a technical problem for once.
These forums have always been a place for lively discussion, not a 12 step support group for a particular class. That attitude brought down the old Formula Ford Underground five years ago and spawned this site in response. You want a love-in? Buy a Porsche and go to Rennlist.
While Eric may be doing a great job of turning enterprises around, and Jon may have put together a good concept in FSCCA, there's a deep seated animosity about Enterprises that will probably never go away as long as it's still affiliated with the club. There was an opportunity to do that earlier this year in finding a private owner, but it looks like that has passed for now.
I inally got a close look at a FSCCA at the Laguna Vintage race in September. Very nicely done, high quality stuff. I don't like the looks though, and it seems there are still some driveline issues, but overall, a nice lump.
Might be a pretty sweet ride with a Gyrodynamics diffuser and Zetec bodywork......
If you guys have the numbers you ought to be a national class. In fact, the whole problem of class dilution could be solved by upping the bar for national participation. That would in itself drive out undersubscribed classes faster and take the BS Topeka driven politics out of the whole situation. So would Rennie's FA, FB, FC, FD solution.
Rick I dont know where you are getting your info from on drive line problems but my car has run all year on the same set of gears .the only thing Ive changed all yr. was one dog ring .. I just checked everthing after running Laguna last weekend and put it all back together. we have spent less than 10grand to run the 12 regional races including entrants fees and fuel to get there not to bad...???? maybe you should get one and find out for yourself..I for one am thankful enterprises is there or I would not be racing with my son thank you enterprises and yes I am paying back your so called dues back thru entrants fees and buying parts if needed thru enterprises that wouldnt be there otherwise also we have just completed our 3rd. yr on the same motor ....... Dan
Now that's about the best news I've seen in a long time. I'd sure like to know the whole story of Jon's involvement in the development/creation of the car. I wasn't even aware of them until the roller showed up at the Runoffs 3 or 4 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by buudrow1
And Richard, I know you are at least ten times smarter than me - you sound like you are smarter than anybody on this forum. But despite your arrogant omniscience, I want you to know that I don't believe I am entitled to a damn thing from anybody in this world - even if I was so ignorant as to purchase this spec car that has driven you and all the other members into the poor house. So please let me know how much of my car you and Steve have paid for to this point, and I'll gladly send you a check.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Pare
I'm also guessing that Jim Julow is about ten times smarter than either of us when it comes to running a business, and if his anaylsis had shown that Enterprises was sucking the cash out the pockets of Inc. and therefore its members, then they would've been sold this year.
And just as I advise people that whine about the "unreasonable" profits that [Exxon, Shell, BP, etc. - insert favorite evil oil company here] are making to go buy their friggin' stock and make some of those windfall profits for themselves, then go out and buy an [FSCCA, SRF, SRSCCA, insert favorite evil Enterprises car here] and stick your hand in all of the other members' pocketbooks and pull out all of that free subsidy money for yourself. I guess that's what I did, and boy does it feel good.
Erik is right - we are where were are, and it is what it is. And under his watch, things are being done with integrity. Look to the future instead of whining about the past. You guys are supposed to be racers, for chrissake. You ought to start acting like it.
Best regards,
Eric
Dan - there were a number of posts over the past few months regarding gearbox issues. The last series I remember had to do with the input shaft shearing at the splines - that was what I was referring to.
In the beginning there were a few other issues like shift barrell wear but sounds like they've been fixed correct?
Actually I wouldn't mind having one as a basis for a FS, but these things will be way out of my price range for some time to come. Was your's the blue car at the Laguna Seca vintage event? It was co-located with a Formula Holden that had the same color scheme.
Yes- that was indeed a compliment- You did do it right and you had the right instinct for FC with the motor change in 2002. My only gripe was that the zetec moved away from FC club spec too far and I'm a very big fan of class vertical integration. We can argue the finer points of that all night. Come over and have a beer at the PRI show next month.
no mine is red white and blue the one at the race you refering to is Tom minnich from monterey he had just purchased it and was sorting it out or lap times at laguna average 129s Ive broken 1 axle in 3yrs ....Dan....
Hey Eric Cruz looking forward to meeting you next week at the arrc long trip but we will be there Dan
In addition to hooking me personally on Van Diemens back in 1994, the original discussions and introduction to the Van Diemen chassis destined to be the FSCCA had Jon's name all over them....
Lot's of water under the bridge (with associated "floaters" from time to time) and stories since, but thankfully I know Jon and have enjoyed knowing him for a long time.
Nobody did...but does that mean that all of us have to roll over and take it when someone comes in here and posts false, misleading or incorrect information? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
I still have not heard an answer as to why people from other classes feel the need to post negative comments or attacks in the FSCCA forum.
Maybe it is our badge of honor ;) to carry on and prove "ourselves" in the next...what do I usually tell people....ten or so years? I'm happy to have many of our customers "back on board", the non-customers just don't get any information from me to change their opinion (or solidify it). In time maybe that is something I should add to the bottom of the LONNNG list of things that need to get better! step by step....just trying not to "step in it"
Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly: take while the taking is good, then blow it off because it's not really that much and you can't change the past anyway? Nice...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cruz
I don't mind the Club engaging in a little capitalistic economy of scale, and pooling resources to get good deals on cars that can be utilized by all of its members. However - despite the fact that you have tried to paint just this rosy picture over post numbers 39, 43, 45 and expecially 47 - this is not what's happening. If the Club pooled its resources to give us access to parts everybody uses - driving suits, helmets, belts, fire bottles, etc - at wholesale cost, then fine. It's doing a service for the whole community. But Enterprises does not do that - it is in the business of selling cars and parts which are usable only by the competitors who subscribe to one particular national class, soon to become two if popular sentiment is any indicator.Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrace27
My understanding is that with the exception of the last year or two, Enterprises has been operating at a deficit. Is this correct? As a sometime FA, CSR and DSR competitor for the last 10 years to the tune of 8+ races a year, I feel that I've been paying my fair share into the SCCA till. If Enterprises has been operating at a deficit all this time, how was that shortfall paid for if not by our collective dues? I have not personally been the recipient of any of the benefits provided by Enterprises, since I do not compete in the monopoly classes for which only Enterprises-sold cars and parts are legal. So, to answer your question, since the original loan and subsequent operating deficit are being sustained in part by my dues, and as such I have a financial interest in the outcome of the discussion, I am posting in the FSCCA forum. If you don't like that, feel free to ignore me.
This is just my frank opinion, so take it for what it's worth, but you might want to consider that this position you've taken of not providing information to non-customers is possibly more effective at changing or solidifying their opinions than giving them information. For better or worse, as the case may be - hopefully that doesn't qualify as stepping in it, but history will be the judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Skirmants
I respect the fact that you are in a difficult position, however if you're serious about loving the Club more than you love your job, doesn't it make sense for Enterprises to at least support the existing classes instead of insisting on a private sand box in which to play and contributing to the spiraling escalation of class dilution?
Cheers,
Rennie
Rennie you are very articulate in your postings,and I must say that I enjoy reading them.You get right to the meat and that is good.Maybe what we should do is give this whole Enterprise thing with some new leader's and a new board a chance to see if they can overcome the pile of xxxx that they have inherited.There buying power,because of the membership that the club enjoy's is without rival in the world.To date it may have been abused and so with it some of the members.You have a lot of knowledge it seems about the industry,offer some of it to the new folks.I have lost more money on enterprises than all of the 7/10 membership dues put together.But that was with a bunch of tosspots that were pretending to know what they were doing.I believe if done correctly it will serve a purpose to the new blood that is needed.It might even make some doe for the members.The club is very grey, and the old deal in 5 years will be very much a minority.Spec racing in 5 years will make up the majority. The bickering about such trivial items such as a spec tire and petty issues like the weight of a piston,and all the conspiracy theories shows that if the membership is the only voice.Progress will be the same as always.Slow The club should in reality be 100,000 strong but have lost out to better value in other venues.I was at the NASA deal that Bryan and Mid-Ohio put on.I think they had over 450 folks there done with a quarter of the staff used at the Runoffs.It ran like a train in 4 days.This will be a force in the future,as they grow more into what the new guy wants to drive and own. All this BS about dues being used to fund a subsidy of the chassis is I can tell you absolute crap.Van Diemen was left holding the bag,and Primus Racing period.If anyone has proof to the contrary I would suggest that you show me.Enterprise lost money,but it was because the old regime would not listen to what was right in front of them.Carl Haas is no fool,if he and his people were not sure that he could make money,and I mean not just enough to fuel the jet he would have not been a player.You may want to use your knowledge to lend a hand in the direction as this club needs it.I think your pop has it right, run it all see what sticks,it may take 5 years to find out,but at least it may be forward motion.The other way has already shown that they are prepared to argue for 5 years and then agree on what they said was wrong 5 years previous.Vision>Enterprises will have 3 more products before 2010.And thus some new blood.
Haven't been on this board for a little while so I had to read this entire thread from the beginning to here in one sitting. Whew! Wonder what I can do to make it longer??? Hmm...how about:
"(AP) Washington DC- The CIA has just announced in a surprise press conference that they were behind the creation of the FSCCA and Sports Renault (AKA Spec Racer Ford, AKA Spec Racer) cars. Apparently these cars were their main tools in a secret plan to wrestle control of the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) away from "All The Other Formula and Sports Racers". Unknown to all these other racers, the CIA provided behind-the-scenes funding to SCCA in the form of "Race Entries" and tricked many racers into buying these cars under the illusion of lower costs, equal equipment, reliability and close nose-to-tail racing. They even had CIA undercover agents (known by the code names "CSR") traveling TO THE RACETRACKS with parts and expert assistance to keep these cars running and on the track. This diabolical plan resulted in a large number of existing and new racers moving into these classes where they were brainwashed into Enjoying Themselves with little to do between races other than enjoy the comroderie that has always been the hallmark of this club while discussing all of the close racing they had just enjoyed on the track all the way back to last place. For Deep Cover, the CIA named the corporation that runs the Spec program after the famous Starship Enterprise figuring correctly that most of the new racers had never heard of it. Most recently, the CIA was behind a plot to "pretend" to offer Enterprises for sale in an extraordinary attempt to deflect the suspicions that various racers were voicing about the true motives of Enterprises and the SCCA. Apparently they had finally "broken the code" and figured out that something this much fun could only be a government plot or a conspiracy at the highest levels of government. With their secret identities now officially made public most if not all of the CIA agents working for Enterprises and in the highest levels of the racing industry are expected to announce their resignations. In a related story, Formula 1 driver Juan Carlos Montoya and Champ Car driver A.J. Allmendinger amazed the racing community by announcing that they were moving to NASCAR."
Yeah...that oughta do it.....;) ;)
Just a thought, but it seems to me that the SCCA is under better, more honest stewardship than in the past. The addition of Jim J. as President and Erik S. as Enterprises President are both very positive development in my humble opinion.
Were many bad decisions made prior? YES! Some nearly inexcusable. Many made me question my membership and committment.
I see the candor of these new leaders as a sign that we are entering new times for the Club. I may be an irrational optimist, but I doubt it.
Sean
Good positive comment Sean. I will state once again, history is history and no one can change that, although some John Kerry and Al Gore clones on this board haven't quite figured that out yet. Lets get on with making a better club, not whinning about what might have been done in the past. Enough said, it is what it is!
Chuck
Iwill say this again THE ONLY REASON I AM RACING IN THE SCCA IS BECAUSE OF THE FSCCA CAR. Why? The car fits my needs (ie. spec car).
So......add up all the entry fees I have paid over two years and realize that those would not be there otherwise.
If you are concerned about your dues subsidizing Enterprises (which I don't believe), I will say this: If you are racing cars, the paltry amount we pay for dues is INCONSEQUENTIAL.
In the short two years I have been in this club, I have seen things that make me agree with buudrow. If we don't attract new members, we will continue to decline.
Well, I could just about quote Mark in his last comment. I too moved to SCCA because of this car as well.
I share the car with another driver and we run the heck out of the car doing racing and track days sometimes 8 times a days for several days in a row. There a not a lot of cars around that can either run that much and last, or do it at a price I can afford to run so much.
I'm sure everyone loves their particular car and the group they run with. I'm sure mistakes were made in the past. I'm sure mistakes will be made in the future. I'm sure there are a set of current rules regarding what qualifies a car for a National Class. I'm sure FSCCA has this past year and will for the forseeable future put up the numbers for inclusion for a National class. I'm sure that many of the comments in this thread, while interesting, are not really germane to the topic at hand. I'm sure having a National Class and this post will upset some people.
To all this I say good!
Racing first of all is about competition. Racing is not some predetermined outcome, there is preparation, hard work, skill, and luck. FSCCA owners competed by buying cars and running them. We put up the numbers and placed accordingly. To other car owners who placed above or below us, I hope you enjoyed racing your car as much as we did and we'll look forward to the next year of racing and see where we fall out then. I'll tell you we have many more new owners coming on board with new cars selling fast!
To Chet,
Funny!
Cheers to all,
Jim