The $3,000 Zetec Solution

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland

Stan, it was RIGHT THEN that I made up my mind that none of it even mattered anymore. The schedule, the parity, all the talk, etc, blah, blah...none of it. If the CRB is going to spring pro maps on us what's the point of the whole process huh? Say one thing, do another. Make pro maps club maps. How am I suppose to know what's coming next?

So why don't we give the Pinto the burial it should have gotten years ago and allow both ECU and carb Zetec in FC. It's a just a far cleaner way of doing it. Face it, you'll never get real parity between Pinto and Zetec. You're chasing a mirage.

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If it doesn't matter to you, Tom, why are you still arguing about it?

And while we've been over this before, it is worth saying again. The CRB did not "spring" any maps on the Zetec. We tested map and IR restrictor combinations to find a setup that put the Zetec at an initial competitive disadvantage, as directed by the BoD, but "CRIPPLING" was never part of the equation. That word, and the emotional response that goes with it is your invention, Tom. As it stands the Zetec is 2-4 seconds a lap off the pace in Club trim, although it will get closer and will achieve parity over the next year and a half.

We are not going simply "dump" the Pinto. And I reject your argument that we cannot achieve parity. Parity in this context simply means that they have the same or very similar performance potential, which I believe we can achieve, but the engines do not have to display 'exact equality in all respects' to achieve parity.

You have those cost data yet?

Stan

Man come on that is just flat out cheating! As far as riggin up the finish thats an old Sat nite dirt track trick and just another reason I quit racin stock cars.

What kind of satisfaction can a guy get racing a car like that? All that work just to cheat?
Were there other drivers that finished behind the 2 guys involved and did they know about the deal?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Douglas Brenner

My"certain friend" made a deal with this person not to protest him if he let my "certain friend" win the race. In the first race my "certain friend" lost two laps in the pits and the illegal car got the win. In the second race, the illegal car let my "certain friend" by to win, thus taking second. My "certain friend" didn't really care about others who race this class, just his own curcumstances.

If it is the competitors responsibility to point out illegal cars, than why do the tech people weigh and check fuel of the first few cars in a class at impound? I don't think this is because of someones protest. It is because the club has some responsibility to see that cars comply with the rules. This was not a subtle bit of cheating. It was very obvious.

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I just looked up the results on Mylaps. Just click on the results for the two Group 1 races to see who the FC competitors were.

Let me get this straight....someone comes on the board under a secondary screen name. Boasts about a new cheap, but ILLEGAL engine for FC. Turns out that he was the competitor that did NOT protest the illegal car....and now doesn't like the turn the thread has taken and only wants to discuss the merits of introducing this engine.

How about being straight up in the first place. This discussion would have never taken the turn it did if Randy Keen had shown up at a REGIONAL running as FS.

Thomas, you really expect people to overlook blatant cheating and collusion to discuss the merits of a cheaper engine while you sit there and brag about how this guy won a NATIONAL FC race? Yes, Virginia (see the original post) , THAT is what started this.

If the original post had left out all the crap about this being a national race and just focused on "some guy" that has put in a carburated zetech at a decent price then I think you would have received a much different response.

James

Mark, there were no other drivers involved. It was a two horse race. The only people who might have gotten hurt in this were some that had points in the the division. But like I said, if they are "finished" for the season and none of the rest of them are going to the runoffs who got hurt here? Is this really about bragging rights to how many points you earned during the year? If that's the case they can have all of mine. I'm on top of the standings in FC in the NW divison and I at this moment I couldn't care less. And I earned every point too. Legally. Like I wrote, I don't cheat. Never have, never will. I'm also over 100 pounds heavier with my car than the rest of my competitors which means I have to drive twice as hard as they do. And no, I can't just go on Jenny craig and lose it. I'm always going to be at a disdvantage.

Like I said, this was one time I just decided not to make a big fuss over things because it was only the two of us racing in FC that weekend. Nice to have someone to race against even if he has an illegal engine. I wasn't thinking about others in the division when I did it. My understanding was they were either done for the year or didn't have a bone in the points race anyway. If they did, then why didn't they show up? How geninue can you be to not show up for race and then piss and moan because somebody took your points away. Give me a fu&%king break!

But if the truth be known I lost out too. I could have had first place points from both races. All I had to do was drive 10 laps in each race to do it. So I lost at least 3 national points in all this myself. The person who probably got hurt the most in this was me! Don't hear me whining and crying about it do ya?

Stan, it's going to take me a little time to track the guy down and get those numbers. He doesn't exactly just live down the street from me.

And I wasn't boosting about a cheap Zetec engine. Simply putting it up for topic. But now that you see what has transpired, wouldn't you use a screen name too? Also, I outed myself a whole page ago so everyone who has read the first 1o replies knows SMC is me! So I'm not exactly being sinister here.

And the fact that this was a National race probably would have come out anyway. The topic is over as far as I'm concerned. I'm outta it. And outta this class too. Just ain't worth the hassle anymore. And none of you are either. Why should you even care? Doesn't really effect you directly anyway. Most of you are just piling on to satisfy your own sick twisted desires at this point.

Anyone interested in a FC Pinto car? Will sell it cheap,. Just want out of this now. Just want out. Somebody, get me the h##l out. email me offline cause I'm done here. Adios.

I agree this might be a package to consider but it is absolutely the wrong way to go about. I don't know who allowed it or why this car was allowed to run in National competition but it is absolutely wrong regardless of any other credible or incredible rationalization on your part or the officials part.The rule book whether we all endorse it or agree with everything in it I believe that any and all competitors with any integrity realize we have to uphold to keep any semblence of fairness intact.This is an aboration of our rules and direct insult to our club.You the person who entered and drove this car must realize that you have shown poor sportsmanship and it should not be tolerated.The fact that you mock the club and rationalize the rule book implies to me you are not the type of member we seek.Shame on you and shame on the officials of the race.

blase' attitude about cheating. postings under an assumed name. desire to dis-infranchise 100s of pinto powered competitors. from what i've read here today, i don't feel like thomas' decision is a big loss to FC.

mark d

Good for you Mark. Bravo. Thanks for reinforcing my decision. Interested in some spares? Got plenty. Will probably break up the car. But the Pinto will probably go where it belongs. In the trash.

As one of the co-creators of the Zetec FC proposal I can say that Rick and I evaluated the carburated version of the Zetec before presenting the proposal to the team and tabled it as a later discussion due primaily to lack of R&D. Obviously there was a significant amount of dyno and track information available for the EFI version so we chose to focus there. Additionally the EFI gave us a lot of flexibility to "tune" the engine quickly and easily in the quest for parity.

In terms of cost, there are some cost savings to be achieved by replacing the fuel injection with carbs but it's not significant. As already mentioned, the big costs are the engine, oil pan, oil pump, exhaust, oil lines, water lines, engine mounts, fuel pump, flywheel, clutch, engine cover, etc. The costs are outlined in the proposal. If you get a junkyard engine, buy a lot of used parts and don't count the time you spend you might get one together for under $5k. Keep in mind that the pro series has done a lot of R&D on the current EFI engine to ensure reliability. For instance we evealuated the stock fuel injection to reduce cost but abandoned it due to reliability concerns. I'm anxious to hear how the carb version holds up after it's been raced and crashed a few times.

On the cheating thing all I can say is if I'd been there he would have gotten protested no question about it. With that said I would have like to run with him to see how well it runs and begin to get some data but I would have done so only if he agreed not to run for points as was done when we tested the Zetec at Pocono last year.

Looks like some really good work was done here on the conversion, I'd hate to see us loose this opportunity to get data, it just needs to be gathered properly. I'd love to hear what parts were used especially the carbs, intake and ignition but also all the other stuff like oil pan, oil pump (and all the other stuff listed above).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland

Anyone interested in a FC Pinto car? Will sell it cheap,. Just want out of this now. Just want out. Somebody, get me the h##l out. email me offline cause I'm done here. Adios.

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So I went out and looked at the results and found an FC (in the hands of the NWDIV points leader, no less) going 5 seconds slower than all the FMs (and three seconds slower than the FFs). I'm sure there were extenuating circumstances, but don't get your hopes up for being able to sell your stuff at a premium price.

Are we sure this isn't the world-famous MattBerg under an(other) assumed name?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smc

Yes Virginia, it finished first in FC.

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btw... If you are directing this at me the name is Chas. How about posting your name?

Wow - this whole thing is pretty piss poor...

I don't at all believe the $3000 solution. BS. I do all my work and fabrication and have looked at converting my RF99 from Pinto to Zetec. $5000 seems like a more realistic figure for conversion to a carb version. But frankly, the Pinto bottom end is rather robust... I'd rather find a better head for it.

Copeland and his fake ID can take a hike. Tell me which dump you stick your Pinto engine in, and I'll come find it. Life is about courage, trust, and respect... All are lacking here.

Yeah Rob thats what my engine builder said
...put a Cosworth 2 cam cylinder head$$, the multi carbs, and a new header on the Pinto block, change the FC to FS in the SEDIV or go to a NORPAC national and make a deal ;) in FC. With the Oliver hole punchers and JE slugs, he said the MK-9 would go out before the bottom end?

As far as cost goes it has always been cheeper to run wrong than right....DAH? We are not reinventing the wheel here, everything that we race was developed 10-15 years ago...as in all lower classes.

And Chas your right too.... I would load up my own Son if he showed up at the track with that "over the top" cheatin setup! Now before they were leagel the guy that beat me at the ARRC one year, had an adjustable cam gear, he diden't even know that it was wrong and I just let it slide because I felt that I got beat fair and square on the track, by him not that gear. Still if I know that something is wrong on my car I won't race it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland

Can we get off the cheating nonsense now because it's childish, really. They do in pros, do it in club. Let's all grow up shall we? This should be more about getting a a cheap Zetec into FC. And besides, I'm not the one who was cheating. I have never cheated. . Think I just made my mind up about some things today. Thanks for making it all so clear.
.

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Yes, cheating is childish - no doubt about it. It is also wrong. You have told us more about your character and methods than any of us wanted to know, or care to believe. This is truly shameful. You feel you were not cheating. OK. You were deliberately breaking the rules and were cheating the rest of your competitors, whether they were through for the season or not. Whether they were going to the runoffs or not is also moot.

By ingenuously presenting this issue to the bulletin board under an assumed moniker and colluding with Mr. Keen in this sham, you have probably done more to scuttle your cause than you imagine. Had you presented this configuration in a forthright and open manner it would have done some good, as Chas has pointed out there is some interest in the data to be gained. I can quote you when I say "Thanks for making it so clear." And, yes, why not grow up?

And you were discussing ethics?

I'm outta of it now. What difference does it make? Give it a rest. Grow up. It's over.

[edit: removed comment was uncalled for.]

Well as a newbie to FC and a returnee to SCCA this last post makes me wonder if I made the right decision.

I am sure I have, but I sure hope that this isn't the type of attitude, behavior, and ridiculousness that is the norm.

But the last post I found pretty offensive and quite off target/topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whoomah

Well as a newbie to FC and a returnee to SCCA this last post makes me wonder if I made the right decision.

I am sure I have, but I sure hope that this isn't the type of attitude, behavior, and ridiculousness that is the norm.

But the last post I found pretty offensive and quite off target/topic.

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Curt,

This is most definitely not the norm. The individual in question is not representative of the group as a wgole or 99.99% of the members. I too find the last comment offensive. The reference to The Persecution is most odd.

I can bearly believe what I have read here !!! cheating is CHEATING !! thats IT ....... if you wanna run a cool fast car that is weird run THAT class!! with all the other run what you brung cars !! ...FS

this deal making in shadows for points is..... JUST well ........... WRONG !!

the stewards had a duty to DQ the car if it didnt pass even visual inspection...this one was a gimme for any MORON to figure out !! SHAME ON THEM

seems a certain guy showed up at a national at Laguna Seca with a 5 SPEED SQUENTIAL BOX ... he was questioned and SENT home!!! that day !!

run legal or what's the point !! .. I could easily show up with a legal looking 230HP zetec and win easy ............but whats the point !!!

if I want to drive wickedly fast car (and I might)...it will be entered in FS not FC ... geezzzz this stuff is SOO easy to figure out !! not EVEN GRAY at all ........:mad:


stan PLEASE keep on !! and to all the rest of the SANE people... Chas etc !! .... what can I say....??? there is a reason everyone dosent go home with a checkered flag !! lets not loose sight of the big picture .......... really!!

Greg,

I think that you have nailed the coffin -- nothing more needs to be said --

Regards,

David Keep

Crossle 63F
Reynard 90SF

Here is what happened as I know it.

[SIZE=2]Three FC cars were at the event: Thomas Copeland, Nicholas Belling and Randy Keen. Nicholas Belling had a large crash in practice and was not able to race but stayed to help Thomas. So only Thomas and Randy Keen were left, leaving only Thomas in a legal FC car. Sometime before the first race Nicholas and Thomas became aware (they saw Mr. Keen jetting his carbs and knew that a legal Zetec was fuel injected) that his car was not a legal FC.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]When Mr. Keen was confronted about this Thomas was told that "the officials" knew about his car and were going to let him race if no one protested him". He also told Thomas not to worry that he wouldn't finish ahead of him. If Mr. Keen was not there, Thomas only had to finish both races (which he did) to get two wins. Thomas had nothing to gain from a deal. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]So basically, Thomas was trying to be a good sportsman. He believed that the officials were aware of the car and didn't want to stop anyone from racing. He had nothing to gain by allowing Mr. Keen to compete. Thomas was also having many problems with his car and didn't really have the time to go pursue a protest. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]In the first race, Thomas had a piece of bodywork come loose and had to come in the pits for two laps to repair it, and Mr. Keen actually won the first race, so had Mr. Keen not been in the race, Thomas would have won it as he completed the requisite # of laps instead of finishing second.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Mr. Keen is totally at fault here. He showed up with an obviously illegal car and, if officials didn't condone this car, lied to Thomas. I feel that the evidence of the pictures and statements from Thomas and Nicholas Belling would be enough proof that the car is in fact illegal and to punish Mr. Keen for his actions. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=2]I also believe that Thomas Copeland should be credited with a win in the first race and given the points for this. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Thomas is a really good guy and, knowing him as I do, believe he was just trying to be a good guy. Mr. Keen took advantage of this to the determent of the sport and Thomas.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]This is now being investigated, so maybe something will be done. Thomas is really a good guy even though sometimes we out here don't understand his logic, and he doesn't understand ours. What we believe Thomas is stuck on is that he has twice had to pay a lot of money to rebuild his pinto and believes their is some cheaper way to do things. He has spent a lot of time and money getting his car up to "legal" spec, which makes the incident at Kent even worse[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]And by the way, Thomas has a really nice competative car, but the kinks aren't out yet.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]If there is any action taken on this incident it will be posted.[/SIZE]

I'm still hopeful that the guys who built the car will share the conversion process. I don't care if it cost $3k or $20k it's still valuable information and I'm extremely interested in learning how they did it and what parts they used. It's obviously a very nice conversion.

Rick pointed out to me that in the Zetec proposal there was a section leaving the door open to explore carburators. When the Zetec committee met there were members who were very interested in pursuing carbs. I think this is an excellent first step.

In defense of the guys who raced the car, I have to say that I'm reasonably certain they didn't think about the wide ranging issues associated with running the car. It sounds like they took the time to discuss it among the competitors and inform officials. In hindsight it obviously wasnt' such a good idea but I think that maybe they were trying to make a point by running the car and I hope some good will come from their efforts. I have to say I think we've all learned a lot from this as well and hopefully something like this won't happen again. I don't condone what they did but I would hope we can turn this into a positive. If it were my car I'd give up the points if there is some provision to do so.

Please share details of the conversion.

Douglas, thanks for the perspective on this. What you said makes good sense to me. I always believe in giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

Chas
I agree it is an interesting and well done conversion. There are plenty of regionals out here that the car could have been run legally as a FS. Also, as I understand it, the weather was bad (Washington, who would have guessed!) so not a lot of good data could have been taken, and as far as I know he did keep the National points.

Also, there is now a grey area having to do with if Mr. Keen did in fact inform the officials. This is all being investigated and the facts will be known.

Dave
Thanks!!

There may actually be more to the story as regards possible ramifications in the officials allowing an illegal car to be run in a sanctioned race.

If said car were involved in an accident that involved personal injury of a spectator, it is quite probable that the club could be sued for negligence (forget about the 'waiver' - it is worthless in a cout of law if you have a lawyer worth his/her salt). On that grounds alone, the race officials should be, at a minimum, repremanded severely.

This sort of 'looking the other way' should NEVER be condoned, regardless of the circumstances.

And, sorry, but a $3000 total cost conversion is just not possible, with one exception. The only remote possibility of getting the final cost anywhere near that sort of number is if all of the Pinto stuff was sold at a price that covered all of the conversion costs above the $3000 for the engine.

Douglas,
I don't condone what they did and I appreciate your post, I didn't see it until after my post. No quesiton there were much better ways to handle this and I think it's safe to say no one who reads this site will ever knowingly let an illegal car race again. Mistakes were made all the way around but I hope we can get past that at some point and learn from the work they did.

btw... I agree with you that Thomas should be awarded the win. I don't know if that's possible once the results are final but I'm sure plenty of people are scanning the GCR for a way.

Hey Richard, can you give me a call 703 919-9596 thanks

sorry for hijacking the thread

Thomas:

2 Things:

1) You were wrong and no rationalization will make it right.
2) You can't quit this class until you make good on your promise to spank me and Pizzo.

Still waitin'

Here was my reply exactly as it came in my email from Gary Meeker

Doug, you made some very strong statements to the Director of Club Racing (below) that should only be made when your information is first hand. After having called, or emailed exchanged with, the "officials" involved I find no basis for your third hand claims. I don't intend to exercise those people any further. They work hard, travel at their own expense and are proud of their work. You Sir owe them an apology and you need to do it very soon and without waffling around. You know that the process of Protest at an event is the way to resolve this, not by making claims that have no proven basis of fact.

I won't carry this any further by talking to Thomas Copeland. He had the right of protest and a National driver should know exactly what to do. The people at the event are a good deal better technically than I but they are mainly looking for safety items. To tell you the truth I would barely be able to tell a 'Vette from an FC but if I were dealing with a protest, with the GCR, a good Tech person and the protesting party I could render a decision.
[SIZE=5]Say now the names of the Officials and the details of the "deal" or do the honorable thing. And you would be well advised to do it very soon.[/SIZE][SIZE=5]

[/SIZE]Gary Meeker
Exec Steward, NorPac

So basically now I am in trouble! Isn't it funny the I, a National driver, should know what to do but he can't tell a Vette from a FC and he is an official!! Great

Hey Doug: I can assure you that Gary can indeed tell the difference between a Vette and an FC. He is also absolutely correct in his statements that a Nationally licensed racer should know the protest process. And the window for the protest has long passed.

Thomas screwed the pooch in a big way.

However, we're going to really look at my Burton Power catalog and dream of forbidden fruits. Maybe a switch to FS with a killer engine is the way to go after all. It's bound to be better than losing drag races to FM's.

How much Torque can an LD200 take anyway?

See ya Friday afternoon.

well that is MOST disappointing ............ I guess its okay to cheat as long as you make a deal ............ with the officals or whoever you need to

Doug is it okay if I run my legal looking 230 HP ecu'd ZETEC next national oh and BTW .. it would be really cool .... if you dont mind too much .....I've got this 6 speed squential trans axle with a Quaife diff ... PLUUEASE !!! ......................

call me stupid ...... but those pictures are pretty obvious anyone who has seen any FC race in the last oh well 20 years .......... should be able to tell that multi CARBS are now where NEAR leagal !!!

and that YOU DOUG shouldapppologize to anyone for questioning the fact that some "good ole boy agreement" was made to let this car run is proposterous !!!

Thomas may be a strange dude .........JK Thomas ;) but basically an okay guy like Doug says...........
MY BIG grief is with the tech officials and thier ........either lack of knowlage .......or lack of willingness to enfoce rules .........easy to figure out rules ... volunteer or not ... some one needs to be qualified to figure things like this out and not just leave it to a competitor to protest ....... obvious things like this should NOT need a trigger to get done !!!

this really shouldn't be over just because a competitor didnt have the bandwidth on a weekend to police the class single handedly ...........

am I missing something here ????????

[SIZE=2]Terry[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I have received a very threatening letter from Gary Meeker because of my letter to you. I should have said that "I was told" that officials were involved. I was basically asking for an investigation of the incident and I could have expressed this better. It should have been implied that I did not have first hand information, otherwise I would have said who was involved.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Here is the email I received:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][SIZE=3]Doug, you made some very strong statements to the Director of Club Racing (below) that should only be made when your information is first hand. After having called, or emailed exchanged with, the "officials" involved I find no basis for your third hand claims. I don't intend to exercise those people any further. They work hard, travel at their own expense and are proud of their work. You Sir owe them an apology and you need to do it very soon and without waffling around. You know that the process of Protest at an event is the way to resolve this, not by making claims that have no proven basis of fact.

I won't carry this any further by talking to Thomas Copeland. He had the right of protest and a National driver should know exactly what to do. The people at the event are a good deal better technically than I but they are mainly looking for safety items. To tell you the truth I would barely be able to tell a 'Vette from an FC but if I were dealing with a protest, with the GCR, a good Tech person and the protesting party I could render a decision

[/SIZE][SIZE=+2]Say now the names of the Officials and the details of the "deal" or do the honorable thing. And you would be well advised to do it very soon.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Gary Meeker
Exec Steward, NorPac[/SIZE]]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]It turns out that even though a person showed up and raced a very illegal car (there can be no doubt of this), nothing is going to be done by Mr. Meeker and I am somehow the bad guy here. Mr. Meeker states that officials [SIZE=3]work hard, travel at their own expense and are proud of their work". I also work very hard on my car, pay for EVERYTHING out of my own pocket too, and my effort is minimized by this car getting national points. I don't appreciate threats from SCCA officials.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Thank you[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Douglas Brenner[/SIZE]

let's at least keep the exchange while lively, friendly.

Thomas had the right of protest and chose not to do so. Period. No one lese did. You gotta be a driver or an entrant to protest the legality of a car.

If Mr. Keen agreed to let Thomas win, he should have done exactly that and stopped when Thomas did. If that had happened all this venom would have no real cause.

As far as officials disallowing an illegal car, I do believe that the GCR requires a competitor protest except in the case of things commonly checked at impound, such as weight, max wing height and the like.

Even at that, if the illegality of the car was pointed out to the scrutineering people at impound, I highly doubt that they would have ignored it.

So let's get back to the subject of how this car was converted for #3K, which was the start of this in the first place. No one has addressed that yet and I for one am interested.

Greg: One of the downsides of having an Annual stamp in the ol' logbook is that after the car is inspected you can do just about anyting you want to it and it won't be looked at again until one of the following happens:

1) Post Race Impound requiring body panel removal. (Some clever folks have their fuel ports accessible without removal of said panels.)
2) Post impact inspection.
3) Protest.

One more time with feeling: There should have been a protest filed. End of discussion. Had the protest been filed, any collusion (If There WAS Any) between the driver and officials would have been found, and dealt with. The car would also have been found non-compliant. And this thread would not have been started.

I am sure everyone is very amused by the goings on in this string (me included). I, as I am sure we are all painfully aware, have no political skills. But I can't help laughing a little when I see that Thomas wants to sell his car, I am chiding Thomas, who is a good friend of mine, I am in contention with Gary Meeker, who I like and respect, and I wasn't even at this race. And Mr. Keen, the catalyst for all this, is sitting up in the drizzle laughing his A-- of and waving his new checkered flag! Life is funny.

cat·a·lyst (khttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...GIF/abreve.gifthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g.../GIF/prime.gifl-http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...GIF/ibreve.gifst)
n.
One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences

I am sure everyone is very amused by the goings on in this string (me included). I, as I am sure we are all painfully aware, have no political skills. But I can't help laughing a little when I see that Thomas wants to sell his car, I am chiding Thomas, who is a good friend of mine, I am in contention with the SCCA and Gary Meeker, who I like and respect, and I wasn't even at this race. And Mr. Keen, the catalyst for all this, is sitting up in the drizzle laughing his A-- of and waving his new checkered flag! Life is funny.

cat·a·lyst (khttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...GIF/abreve.gifthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g.../GIF/prime.gifl-http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...GIF/ibreve.gifst)
n.
One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences

I was present ...Laguna Seca nat ... when a 5 speed squential boxed car .....a lot less obvious was sent home w/o a proper protest ... it was a tech steward's action

I was there..... and the car went home .........or was given the option to change its class ...funny they chose to go home ..... seems the intent was to pull one over on every one ...not just run ... as they could have run just not in FC

In Kent ...........
even tho the other driver didnt start the race I think he could have filed as well as he was entered .....and was on the track at one point ..........

but really I think that this is the same as a person showing up with a 5 speed or any other illegal car ...someone in tech should know enough to be able to tell what's what

I mean if they can tech fuel ............(not in any way a safety item) then the basic config of a car is not too much to ask I think ... especially if it is "known" ........or thats the way it used to be ....... maybe it's all different now .........

nuff said ..........

personally I cant EVEN believe that this was a $3000.00 conversion especially with how intimate I PERSONALLY AM with a pinto to zetec conversion.... NO WAY can it be done

Greg M, This thread was started to discuss a $3,000 Zetec carb solution and got horribly derailed. It was never suppose to be hijacked by bunch of raving lunatics (Sorry Doug, call me at home to yell later if you want).

Regardless of what happened at Kent. I gained absolutely nothing out of it. How can it be called cheating when you don’t gain anything? Some people like to play loose with terminology. Yes, I could have protested. Maybe should have, but I didn’t. Case closed. It’s over. I know how hard it is to prepare your car to even get to one of these events. You know yourself I never pay the heavy. Somebody else might have angrily sulked down to the stewards ranting and raving about cheaters and such. You know me. Can you ever imagine me doing it? Just not my style and it never will be. Some people may not agreed with that. Tough. I don’t do this to satisfy their needs.

The carb Zetec engine at Kent was put in for $3,000 give or take a couple of hundred bucks. I’m pretty sure of that. I don’t care what the so-called experts on this site say. Have they built one of these? Until you do you ain’t no expert! All I ever tried to do is present a possibility of getting FC a low cost engine solution. Not just for me but for everyone in this class. We all deserve better than the situation we currently have. And in doing so I have been verbal assaulted, denigrated, called names, etc. And I’m not talking about this Kent incident. What I’m talking about dates back 2-3 years when I first bought it up. Quite frankly, I’m pretty fed up with it all. Not so sure I’m in such a sharing mood anymore so anything I do know I ain’t telling. Doubt if Mr. Keen is in such a mood to share either.

As for my last post, I just felt my back was up against it and lashed out. Felt like I was being pursued by a lynch mob. Hence, the reference. I regret it.

May have to spank you in another class. Right now not real sure I want to stay in this one anymore.

Thomas my disappointment is not with YOU at all but more the officials that let something like this slide .......... it USED to be one would have SOME fear of penalty for doing something like this ......... I guess it is a different deal now ......never the less hugely disappointing .........YOU shouldnt have to be the heavy as you put it

Tom:

Some of us here have been building cars for 30 years or more, and can pretty much tell you the cost of a conversion down to the last nut and bolt off the tops of our heads (as pointed as they may be!). The $3000 doesn't even come close to flying, with the aforementioned sale of the Pinto stuff being the only possible way you could approach that number.