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Gerry, a few questions on the Duratec. It has have been explained to me that the Duratech is a "throw away" engine. Is it true that if you seriously overheat these, you pretty much need a new engine? Can it be rebuilt?
This isn't an attack on Duratecs, I've just heard so much stuff and thought you might know.
Steve
Hi Steve,Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Thomson:
Gerry, a few questions on the Duratec. It has have been explained to me that the Duratech is a "throw away" engine. Is it true that if you seriously overheat these, you pretty much need a new engine? Can it be rebuilt?
This isn't an attack on Duratecs, I've just heard so much stuff and thought you might know.
Steve
As I understand manufacturing processes, most everything is built with an expected lifespan. An item will last "X" amount of years or "X" amount of use cycles then considered to be worn out or obsolete. Fifty years ago, a car engine would need internal maintenance...valves ground, a re-ring of pistons, bearing replacement, overhaul, etc. after a short period of miles to maintain top performance...similar to Formula Ford 1600 engines.
Modern casting and machining technology and metalurgy plus superior oil and filtering systems have allowed engines and other components to "live" a very long time without the need to rebuild. A point where they are considered to be "throw-away" as it is often cheaper to replace with a brand new engine then to try a restore a used engine to exacting tolerances. The current Formula Zetec engine proves this point as a regularly maintained engine can be raced for years until wear reduces it's performance. It is less expensive to remove the exterior race components and transfer them to a new Zetec engine.
Of course the type of racing is relative to a component's life cycle. The life of a Top Fuel dragster engine component might be five seconds of hard use then it is discarded. An engine block, cylinder head, crankshaft, etc will have so many cycles then be replaced. That being said, a Duratec engine (or Zetec engine) can be rebuilt but it might be hard to duplicate exacting tolerances within a reasonable and affordable cost.
As for overheating issues...it does appear that alloy engines are more prone to suffer damage than iron block and head engines. There is no indication that a Duratec engine has design flaw that makes it more prone to overheating.
I hope this answers your questions.
Regards,
Gerry Dedonis
The thread's gotten so long and rambling that there's hardly a point any more. [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img]
The Comp board came up with some options. There are really only two questions:
Are those the options you want to voice your opinion on?
If not, what else?
Fail to answer and the Comp board will let us peter away like Formula Ford, figuring we don't know WHAT we want. [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img]
To refresh:
"The options being presented by the comp board are as follows:
1) Leave it alone as a Pinto class
2) Add a restricted version of the Pro Series Zetec engine to bring it back to the current Pinto 2 litre engine, possibly with a weight penalty.
3) Solicit engine manufacturers for a replacement engine to be phased in.
4) Return FC to an open engine formula (similar to FA) as it was prior to 1984 with the Pinto as the performance standard. This would have the advantage of accommodating some other combinations (motorcycle engine single seaters for example) in the National Program"
This is like a high-school exam. It doesn't matter if you provide a great and well thought out answer, if it's not the question on the test.
Let's try to bound the problem. Keep a couple of things in mind:
Regardless of the decision made on the Zetec, you'll be able to count the number of pre-98 cars that convert on one hand. So, how many cars did Van Dieman produce between 1990 and 1997? That's a good estimate of the number of total older cars out there that can't realistically convert.
How many 1998-2003 cars have been produced to Pinto Spec? These are the cars suitable for conversion.
How many 2001-2003 cars were produced to Zetec spec? Double it, and that's the maximum pro trickle-down that we would ever see.
With those numbers in hand, and the conversion costs presented by Sandy and Baytos in previous posts, the picture ought to get clearer. Mr Baytos - care to provide some numbers? I figure the total production of all other manufacturers combined is less than 10% of Van Dieman's and the write-off/CSR/FS rate is probably close to 10% as well. Call it a wash.
But looking at the four options as presented, I haven't seen a lot of support for Option #1 as written. Frog offered up the Marshall plan, and I attempted to build on that with a poll on engine mods, which has garnered not a single response. :mad: From this I'm led to believe that the majority of the folks discussing own '98 and up cars, and are really weighing the alternative engine issues.
Option #2 seems to be possible, but again, not as written, and the devil is truly in the details. If someone has data showing where a pro trickle-down worked to the advantage of the existing cars, please present it. An while you're at it, take a good look at the ratios of the production numbers if we get them.
I've seen no indication that Option #4 is what folks want.
Option #3, in one form or another, is where the thread has gone for the last couple of days. While I would love to see a more modern alternative to the Pinto THAT FITS THE PRE-98 CHASSIS (after all, 98 and up have the Zetec), that option is DOA. There's no need to solicit another manufacturer - the FC of the future is the FSCCA. Why would the club consider any option that threatens to take away sales from Enterprises with a nearly identical product?? That decision has already been made - both by the comp board and the marketplace when one considers the number fo chassis sold already. Better get your deposit in the mail, because in five years FC nationals will be dominated by FSCCA cars.
So lets get on with discussing variants of Options 1 and 2.
Option 1 is for all the pre-1998 cars and a great number of the 98-03 cars.
Option 2 is really about making sure the pro guys don't get stuck with a bunch of hardware when they move on to the next big thing. But since I don't own one, I don't have a dog in that fight. If I were you though, I'd be looking for ways to get that conversion down in price.
You are somewhat incorrect with your statement Rick, the CB is not lettting us "peter away" they have been a huge help. WE do know what we want and have got it approved by the Comp Board in the last 2 years. (we are actually being more proactive getting parts approved by the CB than FC)carefull what you guys say here, we read things too and we can also write letters.Quote:
Fail to answer and the Comp board will let us peter away like Formula Ford, figuring we don't know WHAT we want.
:confused:
New Parts for FF1600
Aluminum aftermarket head
Electronic Ignition
2 aftermarket cranks
15.5 OEM Flywheel and a new aftermarket flywheel
3 different aftermarket gasket kits
aftermarket rocker pedastals
Moroso Oil Pans/valve covers
soon we will have forged pistons when they are proposed and new cams (see Jan fastrack). IF and when we get somebody to cast blocks most of our problems will be solved.
Read Mr. Baytos's post a little closer. :D (237) the car I work on in the Zetec pro series was originally a 01' Pinto Pro car that was converted to Zetec specs in 2002, the 15K number is pretty close,(probally low) but this is racing always assume it's going to cost more than you think (it always does). BTW, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that 3-4 of the 237 98-04 cars have been converted to Kent Formula Fords ,I doubt they would want to go to Zetec ;) -DaveQuote:
How many 1998-2003 cars have been produced to Pinto Spec? These are the cars suitable for conversion.
[size="1"][ December 27, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hopple ][/size]
Thanks for clarifying it for me Mike! That's exactly what I meant. Nothing else believe me!
I did obviously miss JB's stats on the 98 and up cars. If there are roughly 230 98-04 cars remaining, and roughly 60 are Zetecs, figure by 06 there might be something like 250 total, and 80 of those Zetecs if nobody converts.
But the number I was realy looking for was the 90-97 quantities. If the production rate was roughly the same on average, there should be something like 300 of those, and maybe another 200 or so of earlier vintages going back to 84. But those numbers seem too small, like half of what I'd expect. On the other hand, there were a number of recession years in there where production of a lot of makes was in single digit quantities.
All,
First a belated Merry Christmas.
Second,
The whole thing comes down to money.
with enough money pretty much anything can be done.
Ztech, Duratec and Pinto can all be made comparable in performance, by whatever means (bring Pinto up, bring the Ztech and Duratech down).
The question is how much people are willing to spend.
If you are a pro guy, you truly do want a competitive place to dump your Ztech when the series moves on without taking too much of a beating on selling it.
To me this is a perversion of the club racing system. Club racing is just that CLUB RACING. I have been doing it for a long long time and have seen this happen with wet Super Vees and the Pinto cars, both times at great expense to the CLUB racers in FC (or FSV) at the time.
Thwe wet Super Vee thing did not last long at the club level. The Pinto car came along and the wet SV's went to Atlantic to more or less die. There weren't that many of them in club racing at any one time any way.
But the Pinto, Ahhhh. It has been in this class since 1984, if memory serves me correctly, and it is a fine engine.
Now there are a LOT of them, the class is huge (I believe third in last years National perticipation count).
So the question truly is: Do the CLUB racers in FC want to spend a ton of money to obsolete their equipment to turn the class into a dumping ground for the pro guys when they move on. Remember previous posts have indicated that there are about 1000 Pinto cars out there and less than 100 Ztech's.
My humble opinion is let the pro guys dump their "old" equipment somewhere else and keep FC Pinto powered with improvements to enhance reliability and reduce engine costs.
If you want the latest high tech engine and car, there is a class in CLUB racing for that. It is called FA.
Maybe it was the multiple [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] guys that threw me off... :D Sometimes it is very hard (myself included) for people (newbies to racing also, remember) who come here to read the posts to decifer what the facts are and what is somebodys personal opinion.
The participation levels this year for the Zetec series ( I'm guessing without going back and looking at the results) was around 23-28 Zetec engined cars showing up at each of the races. Granted there were some cars bought out on the left coast that were going to run in the west coast pro series that didn't work out in 03, hopefully a west coast series happens in 04'.
Sorry for the rant- Dave
Rick
Keep in mind that the Zetec cars have wider wheels and tires compared to FC. I believe that their minimum weight is 1175lbs compared to 1190lbs for FC. These two points, in addition to what has already been mentioned, need to be factored in when trying to equalize the cars. I'm not sure if there is any difference in the brakes. At one time, they were talking about going to vented rotors. Perhaps someone will chime in and clarify.
Dennis Cleary
VD RF94/95 NER#37
Nope, Unless things have changed we are all using the standard rotors, if I remember right, they are made by PFC, one of the series sponsors.Quote:
At one time, they were talking about going to vented rotors. Perhaps someone will chime in and clarify.
-Dave
Dave I think what Rick ment was that FF has declined over the last decade not that you guys haven't tried and to some degree been succesful in making your engine formula viable.
I have read JB's post carefully several times and the one thing that keeps sticking in my mind is that he contridicts himself.
Quote:
Chassis Stability: We are not planning on any changes until '06, we are working on something with a V-8, but if the Zetec owners group want something different we will look at it.
These statements make me nervous. Pro team have no loyalty to SCCA rules they go with the series. I heard from two of the Ztec teams that the V8/Carbon tub car was planned for the '06 season a year ago. How many new pro cars will be bought in the next two years ten? Twenty? At twenty that would give us just over 100 total cars in the country. Weight that against 1000+ pinto cars....well you see where I'm going. This Ztec thing is the tail wagging the dog in my eyes I'm voting for option #1 if we can't come to some sort of consensus on the Marshal plan.Quote:
Who said anything about the Zetec Series dumping the engine or changing the chassis. Where do you guys get this stuff!
Steve - I was going to write a bit on the WC SV trickle down in the eighties, but the post was too long. It is a good lesson learned, and a good reason to have folks reason this stuff out carefully. It is probably the only case where a class of ex-pro cars was introduced into a lower class and then moved UP.
So, under the headline of those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it, Steve, correct me where I'm wrong.
If I recall the history of FC, we started with tube-frame F3 based cars with a high-RPM crossflow engine. I don't know for sure, but those chassis could be FF, F2(FB), or F3(FC) just by changing the motor, brakes, and wheels, so I'd bet that when they got too expensive to run, guys converted them to FF (I know a couple of vintage FB guys who found their cars advertised as FFs).
In any case, the pro SV guys needed a place to get rid of their old cars starting with the move from 1600 TyIII to TyIV motors and the introduction of tubs in '72, so they were allowed into FC sometime thereafter (not sure of the date). Sometime after the rabbit cars arrived in '75, they were allowed into FC running carbs. Then later, the wheels got bigger, the 1800 engine arrived, and injection was allowed, and these cars were just way too fast for FC, so they were moved to FA, and I believe the older WC cars were forced to follow, because the current rules in FC only allow vintage FCs, Air Cooled SV, and F2000. If memory serves me right, these cars (Ralt-RT5s, Shannons, a couple of Marches, and Martinis) did OK in FA until the arrival of full-carbon tubs and the Toyota motor. But, if you had a flat-bottom, carburated, 1600cc WC SV with 6's and 8's (Ralt RT1s, Lolas, most Marches), you were pretty much hosed.
And the air cooled guys, well, you could spend a boat-load of money on new aero stuff and hand-grenade motors to run near the back of the F2000 pack. The best AC SV chassis technology was barely comparable to the early 80's rocker arm F2000's. The board never allowed good rods and custom pistons (all stock VW!), so you got the compression by flycutting the heads, which takes out the first cooling fin and causes the heads to crack - AND you had to do mickey mouse stuff like turning valves into cutters to make reliefs in the pistons, cutting rods in half to make stronger rod caps, etc, etc. Nobody was going to put up with that for long - and I guarantee you there are few truly legal Vintage air-cooled SV's (at least in terms of rods and pistons) because it makes no economic sense whatsoever. VARA recently split SV into three distinct classes:
1700cc air cooled non-winged chassis on treaded tires (essentially 1972 and earlier) FSV-1
1600cc water-cooled flat-bottomed chassis, and air-cooled winged cars with 2000cc motors (a combo never allowed in the SCCA) on 6s and 8s - FSV-2
Everything else: ground effects, injection, 1800cc motors, 8s and 10s, FSV-3.
Maybe the older cars do need to go away, for safety issues if nothing else (my AC SV is a deathtrap). But it should be done on a well thought out, scheduled basis with appropriate input from the affected parties, and not by decree from above.
My point in all of this rambling, and it's a little different than Steve's, is that pro trickle-down is a tradition in this class, BUT! It's been done badly in the past. The only guys that lucked out were the early FC/F3 guys that converted to FF (hey, that could still happen!). I remember a lot of butchered AC SV tubs converted to WC or with strange ground effects added. My '72 Royale was butchered up that way.
Dennis - that's why when I said option #2 was a possibility, I said the Devil's in the details. It has traditionally been done, and IMHO, done poorly.
Dave - I was told there are 10 Zetecs on the west coast. I've only seen one, a CARBIR, run by Jonnie Crean. DT Benner has another. Don't know if all ten are still out here.
Brakes? Shoot - my latest results show that I would go faster if you took the brakes off the car! :D :D
[size="1"][ December 27, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Rick Kirchner ][/size]
Rick
Regarding the wider wheels/tires on the Zetec, why not have them run the same wheel/tire size that FC runs and eliminate trying to equalize one more very significant difference?
Dennis Cleary
VD RF94/95 NER#37
Good commented history Rick - I also have an AC SV - a Tui. It was (attempted) turned into a WC SV before I bought it. I ended up selling the box, engine, and rear uprights getting back whatever money I had in it.
Dennis - Seems to me the Zetec's should run with the same specs as a Pinto car - wings, wheels, etc - but somehow try to equalize the engine torque curves.
I'm also for the SCCA writing specs for engine parts like rods and pistons etc and let us pick the manufacturer. Those Crower rods are very nice for the money.
If you look at the lap times this year from last, there wasn't a whole lot of difference. So yes we have bigger tires but we make a lot less downforce now as well. It worked out pretty well to change from the high downforce wings that are on FC cars and skinny tires to what was run in 03, plus the tires last much longer. (I think I had about 15 fewer sets this year, that would pay for a good chunk of the conversion dont you think) Also, who ever said the tub/V8 car was to replace Zetec and not to challenge Atlantics so there was a ladder of SCCA/Zetec/V8 ??
Rob
Agreed on the wings/wheels/tires. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that any expense to equalize the Zetec and Pinto should fall on the Zetecs. This may not be a popular opinion but there are a lot more Pintos than Zetecs so it seems only fair.
Dennis Cleary
VD RF94/95 NER#37
Bre86 this is all well and good but if the rules are written to allow pro cars to run in FC with pro specs what happens when the pro rules change?Quote:
So yes we have bigger tires but we make a lot less downforce now as well.
Pro rules are fluid and sometimes change within the same racing year. How do suppose Joe tech inspector will be able to keep up. What if the spec tire you run on now is replaced by Yokohama and they give you a softer compound? Suddenly you are 3 sec a lap faster. If (and I am against it) we allow Ztecs into FC the Ztec cars must conform to current FC rules and run the proper restrictor. I personally think that if the Ztec cars are allowed they should be choked down to 5-10 hp less than a National Pinto motor untill the Ztec powered cars become 50% of the FC class. FC has thrived with the pinto as it's choice of power and allthough things have slowed down some it is still a very popular class.
Mr. Baytos started his intitial post by saying he didn't want to upset anybody. Well I don't want to upset him but frankly his agenda is not ours. Steve said it best we are CLUB racers and the pro series is just that, a series for up and comming drivers with proffessional asperasions. Pro drivers for the most part do not own their cars and the teams buy the equipment with hopes that they will be able to unload it at some point. Mr. Baytos needs to have the Ztec car in FC to continue to keep his series viable.
Well with the current chassis freeze there is not a huge cause for pro teams to unload their cars on club racers. Granted I know the freeze will end at some point but for now pro teams dont need to sell their cars off. Also I know it wasnt your point exactly but with Coopers involvement as series sponsor I dont think we will be switching manufacturer's anytime soon. Changing compounds could happen sure but I put 250 miles on my right side race tires at Road Atlanta this year due to the new rules, granted I didn't have to run that many laps in qualifying but I did and I really dont think that they are going to make the tires softer because of the way the rules are written. Typically the pro tires have been harder than club tires anyway since club tires are open. I admit that rule changes happen, thankfully though there are fewer and fewer rule changes happening. The reason for that is the Zetec is getting more and more developed. Obviously there will be an abundance of rule changes the first year because it is a whole new deal. Rule changes happen every year with practically any form of racing. If you are so worried about it then make sure you (anyone running in the class) know the rules so if you see anything or suspect anything then you can notify a tech inspector instead of relying on them to find it.
Rick,
Essentially 100% accurate, except for a few dates, but the content and point I was trying to make were right on the money: Any time in the past there has been a "pro trickle down" done, the club racers lose because it is done poorly.
Oh and btw, the Comp Board did in fact allow any rods and pistons as long as they met a certain weight and had the geometry and were made of the same material as the originals. But they weren't allowed until after a couple of years of water cooled dominance.
But, I can guarantee you that they did considerably reduce the cost of racing and infinitely improve reliability.
I used the same set of Carillos for more years than I care to admit and they still had the original bolts and they were totally trouble free.
Yes I did have a set of those trick rods with caps made by cutting the beams off of another set.
I'd really have to see a back-to-back comparison before I believed this. Track conditions vary from day to day so how can you possibly compare times from one year to the next with any degree of precision :confused:Quote:
As for the tires I've spoken with a couple of the teams that ran this season and they say the same things you've pointed out. The tires are bigger but are also harder so there is no real benefiet.
Let's be realistic, if someone is serious about running the Pro series, their race budget is in 6 figures. I would think that they could afford a couple of sets of Club wheels/tires if they really wanted to. This is one difference between the cars that is easily rectified so that there is no question about the equality of the wheels/tires.
Dennis Cleary
VD RF94/95 NER#37
Andy why should I have to learn the rule book for the pro series just to let a few cars run with us. I can't even keep up with the SCCA GCR so I don't think it should mine or any other FC drivers responsibility to keep abreast of a pro series rules.Quote:
Rule changes happen every year with practically any form of racing. If you are so worried about it then make sure you (anyone running in the class) know the rules so if you see anything or suspect anything then you can notify a tech inspector instead of relying on them to find it.
As for the tires I've spoken with a couple of the teams that ran this season and they say the same things you've pointed out. The tires are bigger but are also harder so there is no real benefiet. My point was more that sponsors and race promoters come and go. Baytos could sell the series next year or Cooper could discontinue it's involvement. Mr. Baytos said in his post that the chassis and engine package could change in just two short years. Pro racing is very fickle this way. In 1997 who would have thought Penske would leave CART for the IRL and CART would go bankrupt? Another example is the promised West Coast series that never materialized. I can name 3 ex-Cal Club FC drivers that sold their Pinto cars to buy Ztecs to run the West coast series. Well Mr. Baytos promised a west coast series and he didn't deliver. I'm sure he had sound reasons for it but that didn't help the guys who bought the cars and were forced to travel thousands of miles to race them.
If the Ztec boys really want to be a part of FC then I'll say it again. The Ztec should be restricted to 90-95% of a National Pinto motor hp until the Ztec numbers are at 50% of Pinto numbers.