2024

Printable View

Show 50 post(s) from this thread on one page

10.19.23, 11:30 AM
Fred Michael

The SRF exemption is just a silly straw man argument at this point.[/QUOTE]

If it's a safety issue for some Sports Racers (it is) then it's a safety issue for all Sports Racers
10.19.23, 12:20 PM
Jim Nash

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Michael

The SRF exemption is just a silly straw man argument at this point.

If it's a safety issue for some Sports Racers (it is) then it's a safety issue for all Sports Racers[/QUOTE]

So, you're saying the speed of the cars, the design of the bodywork and the effect of diffusers and wings have zero impact on the spray generated behind the car? You believe all Sports Racers are the same.

They are not. BTW, the lights on a SRF are 3 feet off the ground.

Jim
10.19.23, 12:56 PM
Raceworks

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJennings

Wondering if Billy Munger’s 2017 crash or Colin Turner’s 2020 crash had anything to do with the change?

Monger was in a pack of cars that blocked his forward view & had no time to react when his line of sight cleared. That's pretty clear from his in-car video (https://youtu.be/MHa6LnGb6IQ?si=Yu3eo_9Zu_04UKPi). The video isn't the best quality but it looks like dry conditions and nobody had rain lights on anyway. Not that it would have mattered in his crash.

The fallout from Monger's crash wash they mandated front bulkhead reinforcements on all F4 cars.

Turner crashed into an already crashed car on the pit straight on the first lap of a race with 104 entries. I'm not sure rain lights were much of a factor there either.
10.19.23, 1:17 PM
Raceworks

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamuwere

There seems to be so much random ire here.

So many cars have abysmal rain lights that I have passed over the years. If it takes me spending a bit to force everyone that has a terrible rain light to fix theirs, then I am all for it.

The anger over SRF3 makes no sense. I am in both classes and it doesn't upset me.

SRF3 was able to demonstrate a light that was brighter and met specs. It isn't like this light is much cheaper than the new required light for a formula car. If they had used the light required, it would have been more expensive with a new required mount and whatnot. There is no way this light would work on the FE, so they didn't try to make an exemption. The SRF had great visibility in the rain prior and it will only be better. So many terrible formula car lights though.

Actually, I think the next step for me is going to be finding a way to add a forward facing light. I think that is the next big safety advance. I simple white light flashing forward would help me so much when passing in dense rain spray. People move over just not knowing you are there behind/beside them.

The SRF exemption is just a silly straw man argument at this point.

The ire is far from random: there are plenty of alternatives to "abysmal" rain lights that don't cost $200, or even $100. Nobody to date has provided any hard evidence that the 2019 FIA spec is so much better than the other FIA-spec lights or other LED lights on the market.

In fact, the only comparison anyone provided was Steven Davis' video (which while unscientific as hell was at least somewhat informative and had a killer soundtrack).

All that we get are glib statements about how the status quo sucks and why not use the most expensive option possible because it's really not a lot of money. I tell you what, every one of you jokers that says $200 isn't a big deal can send that amount to my paypal right now: sam@lockraceworks.com. Hell, send me $200 a month since that's pocket change to you. :)
10.19.23, 1:24 PM
Raceworks

Quote:

Originally Posted by problemchild

You could turn the light on in the dry too, which would provide absolute protection from ever being run over. ;)

The one and only time I ever got run over from behind in a rain race in 400+ starts was two years ago at Mid-Ohio. Buzzbomb decided to try passing half the pack on the first run into China Beach. He ended up climbing over my right rear, and landed on both my right front and Albani's right sidepod. Ended Albani's weekend and I got to run around with about 3/4" of toe out on my right front.

Just think, if I had a marginally brighter rain light that flashed, it would have made Buzzbomb not-retarded and no incident would have happened!
10.19.23, 1:59 PM
Hardingfv32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyPip

Without opening up an endless list of expensive items, Formula Vee is supposed to be ENTRY level wheel-to-wheel racing. There are plenty of items that are prohibitively expensive, but we all find a way.

About $200 or so for an expendable item(it will get destroyed the first time you get rear-ended, wet or dry) just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of club racing.

FV is entry level in SCCA. That does does not mean it can be called affordable. The affordabliity of SCCA racing is dictated by the actions of SCCA competitors. The vast majority of 'active' SCCA competitor have no concern about affordability.

If you are so worried about the safety of your rain light, then mount it to your roll bar.

Brian
10.19.23, 2:15 PM
Hardingfv32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raceworks

Nobody to date has provided any hard evidence that the 2019 FIA spec is so much better than the other FIA-spec lights or other LED lights on the market.

FIA is the only major organization with a standard for a 'motor racing rain light'. FIA is a motor racing oriented organization.

Those against the FIA rain light have absolutely no organizations that match FIA's motor racing credentials. DOT, SAE, etc. have no motor racing expertise. They all so do not have a category of lights listed for use on race cars operating in the rain.

In other words there is no other organization that can challenge the FIA on the rain light specification.

Brian
10.19.23, 3:44 PM
DaveW

3 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveW

I am going to mount my new Cartek round rain light just above and near the rear of the trans to allow it to be easily seen over the support wing AND to hopefully prevent its being destroyed in a rear-end impact. I'll post photos when I've got it installed.

Light is installed in 4-hz flashing mode. Here are 3 photos, one off, one during a flash, and one from 30-degrees to the side.

It's way brighter than my previous 20+ YO LED rain light. It hurts my eyes to look at it. And it's mounted in a MUCH more visible location. Also, most of it is visible from 30-degrees to the side.

I soldered and shrink-wrapped on the connector and wiring from my old light to hook it up.
10.19.23, 4:48 PM
J Leonard

Motorsports UK regulations had approved lights and I don't think all were FIA. They also had regulations on how when and where they are used so you needed a three position switch. Maybe a UK member could comment. SCCA says on/off at stewards direction.
10.19.23, 4:51 PM
Mike B

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveW

Light is installed in 4-hz flashing mode. Here are 2 photos, one off, and one during a flash.

That looks really well-hidden and only visible from directly behind. The rule doesn't address anything about this other than it needs to be near the centerline so you're compliant, it's just a poorly written rule (shocker).
10.19.23, 5:17 PM
DaveW

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike B

That looks really well-hidden and only visible from directly behind. The rule doesn't address anything about this other than it needs to be near the centerline so you're compliant, it's just a poorly written rule (shocker).

Actually, I included view angle in determining the mounting position. Most of the light is visible at a 30-degree angle to either side and at least half of it at more than a 45-degree angle. It's not as far back inside the body as it looks, only ~2.5". View from 30-degrees to left below. Beyond 30 degrees, the light intensity falls off rapidly, so more viewing angle is not very useful.
10.19.23, 6:31 PM
BeerBudgetRacing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike B

That looks really well-hidden and only visible from directly behind. The rule doesn't address anything about this other than it needs to be near the centerline so you're compliant, it's just a poorly written rule (shocker).

Look for a revision of the rule. Part of the FIA spec is view angle.

If we put a tinted lens over it would it still comply?

I suspect we'll get a revised rule stating it has to be within a certain distance of the last structure or axle or something.
10.19.23, 6:58 PM
DaveW

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Look for a revision of the rule. Part of the FIA spec is view angle.

If we put a tinted lens over it would it still comply?

I suspect we'll get a revised rule stating it has to be within a certain distance of the last structure or axle or something.

I could have mounted mine more rearward, but any of those locations that were practical would have had the light far less visible to a following driver than where I put it. Having it up higher makes it much more visible than where I had my previous one, down below the support wing. There were a very limited # of locations that were not in danger of the light being destroyed with minor off's or contact and still met the intent of the GCR mounting rule.
10.19.23, 7:46 PM
problemchild

This thread is such a reflection on SCCA in the year 2024.

All we need now is some TikTok action and a You Tube channel to help us with the installation.:)

Some days I am thankful that I am not a young person having to deal with 2 wars and a FIA rain light installation.
10.19.23, 9:23 PM
DannyPip

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

FV is entry level in SCCA. That does does not mean it can be called affordable. The affordabliity of SCCA racing is dictated by the actions of SCCA competitors. The vast majority of 'active' SCCA competitor have no concern about affordability.

If you are so worried about the safety of your rain light, then mount it to your roll bar.

Brian

I know, I'm just a stupid noob in a crappy class.

Hey, how about I treat you the same as you treat me?

Thanks for that, Captain Obvious! You're about as easy to digest as battery acid. Your need to be the smartest guy in the room is exhausting.
10.19.23, 10:02 PM
Tom Grossmann

So I get that folks may be upset about the way the rule was Instituted and having to possibly fabricate a mount but the cost aspect holds no water for me.

The approved light is $175 which is nothing compared to what we spend in a single weekend.

I do this cheaper than 90% of people; I'm spending $4500-$5000 a season. I'm spending between $900 for local races and $1200-$1400 per weekend for out of town events. This my all in costs; including amortizing the cost of tires, fuel and even the registration for my tow vehicle.

Note I'm racing a $6700 Formula 500.
10.20.23, 9:01 AM
problemchild

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Grossmann

The approved light is $175 which is nothing compared to what we spend in a single weekend.

Simple math shows us that the light is 19.5% of a $900 weekend, and 15.5% of a $1200 weekend.

As suggested by several people already, this situation seems to require a buddy system. Everyone who considers this an insignificant expense should buy two and give one to a fellow racer who considers it a significant expense. For aspiring buddies out there, I will need four.

This buddy system would solve all our problems and save OW club racing. ;)

If this is truly an insignificant cost, there will be no objections. Perhaps we could develop a similar buddy system for the FT cash grab.
10.20.23, 9:17 AM
Mike B

Quote:

Originally Posted by problemchild

Simple math shows us that the light is 19.5% of a $900 weekend, and 15.5% of a $1200 weekend.

As suggested by several people already, this situation seems to require a buddy system. Everyone who considers this an insignificant expense should buy two and give one to a fellow racer who considers it a significant expense. For aspiring buddies out there, I will need four.

This buddy system would solve all our problems and save OW club racing. ;)

If this is truly an insignificant cost, there will be no objections. Perhaps we could develop a similar buddy system for the FT cash grab.

Can we extend the buddy system to tires? And entry fees? I'll stop short of suggesting it for hotel rooms... :D
10.20.23, 9:24 AM
bassracer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike B

Can we extend the buddy system to tires? And entry fees? I'll stop short of suggesting it for hotel rooms... :D

"SCCA Runoffs Appearance Fund".
10.20.23, 9:27 AM
problemchild

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike B

Can we extend the buddy system to tires? And entry fees? I'll stop short of suggesting it for hotel rooms... :D

Now you are just being silly.

But I am sure people would remove the "insignificant cost" label if they also had to buy one for their buddy. Or perhaps they would remove the "significant safety issue" label. If someone believes both labels are valid, then they should have no trouble opening up their wallets to help make it happen. After all, remember that SCCA is a club!
10.20.23, 9:52 AM
John Nesbitt

Quote:

Originally Posted by problemchild

This thread is such a reflection on SCCA in the year 2024.

All we need now is some TikTok action and a You Tube channel to help us with the installation.:)

Some days I am thankful that I am not a young person having to deal with 2 wars and a FIA rain light installation.

Look on the bright side. I recall some time back, your lamenting that you had not made the 500th post in this thread. On present rates, the 1000th post will land just about exactly on Christmas Day.

Stand by your keyboard! :D
10.20.23, 9:58 AM
rockbeau25

Quote:

Originally Posted by problemchild

Or perhaps they would remove the "significant safety issue" label.

The SCCA already did that for us when they drew an arbitrary line in the sand for which classes need it and which can use $20 trailer lights.
10.20.23, 10:07 AM
Terry Hanushek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike B

Can we extend the buddy system to tires? And entry fees? I'll stop short of suggesting it for hotel rooms... :D

I admire your restraint .. :)
10.20.23, 10:07 AM
lowside67

Quote:

Originally Posted by problemchild

Simple math shows us that the light is 19.5% of a $900 weekend, and 15.5% of a $1200 weekend.

As suggested by several people already, this situation seems to require a buddy system. Everyone who considers this an insignificant expense should buy two and give one to a fellow racer who considers it a significant expense. For aspiring buddies out there, I will need four.

This buddy system would solve all our problems and save OW club racing. ;)

If this is truly an insignificant cost, there will be no objections. Perhaps we could develop a similar buddy system for the FT cash grab.

Simple common sense reminds us that a rain light is not a per weekend cost, aka a consumable. The person your simple math is based on is spending $5,000 a season and it is certainly reasonable to expect this to last 5 years at minimum (though I expect MUCH longer). Therefore, the cost of this rain light is approximately 0.7% of the cost of racing for 5 years. This is literally a rounding error and I cannot even believe this has gone on for this many pages.

-Mark
10.20.23, 10:15 AM
problemchild

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowside67

Simple common sense reminds us that a rain light is not a per weekend cost, aka a consumable.

"The approved light is $175 which is nothing compared to what we spend in a single weekend."

I did not establish the context for his comment. Tom did.
10.20.23, 10:19 AM
problemchild

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

Look on the bright side. I recall some time back, your lamenting that you had not made the 500th post in this thread. On present rates, the 1000th post will land just about exactly on Christmas Day.

Stand by your keyboard! :D

Much better to resolve this important issue than be wasting time discussing how to keep OW racing alive, reforming SCCA, reducing costs, or actually making the racing safer. And Peter assured us that SCCA race operations does a perfect job, so no need to discuss ways to improve that department.
10.20.23, 10:24 AM
lowside67

Quote:

Originally Posted by problemchild

"The approved light is $175 which is nothing compared to what we spend in a single weekend."

I did not establish the context for his comment. Tom did.

That is a silly interpretation. The first weekend you go out with it, it will cost you +15.5%. The second weekend, it will cost you 0%. Third weekend, 0%. Tenth weekend, 0%. What's the point of making this "analysis?"

Here's another way to analyze this - as a % of your initial asking price of $75,000 for your Mygale Formula Ford, this rain light upgrade will cost 0.2% of the car's purchase price. As a % of your reduced asking price after 6 months, it is 0.3%. As a % of your further reduced price after 9 months, it's 0.31%. After 10 months for sale, it's 0.32%. After 11 months for sale at $50,000 it's now 0.35%.

Ironically a much more accurate way to measure it, but equally silly.

-Mark
10.20.23, 10:39 AM
problemchild

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowside67

....... but equally silly.

I believe that was my point. Thanks!

I think somebody should take this thread from silly back to stupid ;)
10.20.23, 10:45 AM
John Nesbitt

Quote:

Originally Posted by problemchild

Much better to resolve this important issue than be wasting time discussing how to keep OW racing alive, reforming SCCA, reducing costs, or actually making the racing safer. And Peter assured us that SCCA race operations does a perfect job, so no need to discuss ways to improve that department.

Greg, I agree. We have squeezed all the juice out of this topic. The rain lights appear to be a done deal. Maybe time to move on to more productive topics, as you suggest.
10.20.23, 12:33 PM
J Leonard

The 1000th post will land just about exactly on Christmas Day.
Maybe whoever makes the 1000th post should get a free light.
10.20.23, 2:25 PM
John Nesbitt

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

Look on the bright side. I recall some time back, your lamenting that you had not made the 500th post in this thread. On present rates, the 1000th post will land just about exactly on Christmas Day.

..

Quote:

Originally Posted by problemchild

..

As suggested by several people already, this situation seems to require a buddy system. Everyone who considers this an insignificant expense should buy two and give one to a fellow racer who considers it a significant expense. For aspiring buddies out there, I will need four.

This buddy system would solve all our problems and save OW club racing. ;)

..

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Leonard

..
Maybe whoever makes the 1000th post should get a free light.

Let's make this a sporting proposition. If the 1000th post (i.e. 999th reply) lands on Christmas Day (Eastern Time), I shall buy the poster an FIA rain light, including delivery in the Lower 48.

Have at it, boys! :greenflag:
10.20.23, 6:33 PM
Terry Hanushek

1 Attachment(s)

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108863&stc=1
10.20.23, 8:32 PM
TimH

673
10.20.23, 9:38 PM
EYERACE

I stopped reading this thread long ago......just go out and buy one....by now as this thread has gone along I figure the average reader of this thread has spent more on beer than the cost of a new rain light.
10.20.23, 11:20 PM
Tom Grossmann

Sorry but it is a small cost. The estimated life of an FIA ran light is something like 30,000 to 35,000 hours. It will last the life of the car.

In 1990 I was towing a $2000 Formula Vee ($4700 today) with a 8 year old mini pickup. I was spending about $800-$1000 ($1900-$2300 today) to do 4 regionals a year. The rain light would represent about $80 back then. Even with my limited budget I could have swung it given it would be a one time purchase.

Do note I get the rule being / feeling arbitrary.
10.21.23, 6:24 AM
924RACR

Quote:

Originally Posted by EYERACE

I stopped reading this thread long ago......just go out and buy one....by now as this thread has gone along I figure the average reader of this thread has spent more on beer than the cost of a new rain light.

Somehow the beer feels like a better investment... ;)
10.21.23, 9:51 AM
Ed Womer

Quote:

Originally Posted by EYERACE

I stopped reading this thread long ago......just go out and buy one....by now as this thread has gone along I figure the average reader of this thread has spent more on beer than the cost of a new rain light.

I enjoy the beer!
10.21.23, 2:13 PM
Tom Grossmann

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Womer

I enjoy the beer!

I find Guinness to be a particularly good investment.
10.21.23, 7:41 PM
EYERACE

:beer:
10.21.23, 8:58 PM
SteveG

I like beer

:beer:For less than the cost of the rain light, I can buy a sixtel keg of an excellent local IPA. While the rain light will last longer*, my friends and I will enjoy the beer much much more.:beer:

Steve

* I don't own rain tires and I no longer race in the rain but I do need a brake light. And I'm just trying to help the thread post count.;)

Show 50 post(s) from this thread on one page

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:46 PM.