Measure wheel rate and suspension rate. A good place to start is motion ratio squared. Should get you within 50 lbs of spring rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2BWise
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Measure wheel rate and suspension rate. A good place to start is motion ratio squared. Should get you within 50 lbs of spring rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2BWise
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You have progressed so far in this project. Are you sure you want to turn it over to a prep shop? If you stick to it, and keep learning, you will gain knowledge that will last a lifetime, no matter what class you progress to. There is a lot of joy in fixing the problem yourself, then driving the sucker around to a checker flag knowing you fixed it.
Purple raises a very good point; learn to fish rather than having a fish given to you. However using Lindstrand, or any prep shop that will provide information, could be viewed as a learning opportunity since they will provide a set-up sheet when they are done so a person who is new to the class has a good baseline starting point to learn from. They will probably also have recommendations regarding things that need to be corrected and what those corrections might be - such as the mismatched rock arms. All of this is knowledge that will serve a person throughout their racing career.
xmazdatracy you have been very open with the members of this forum and hopefully this information has been shared with you buy the Carroll Smith books look for them at your local used book store or from here : http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/
I've witnessed you progress quite a ways since you've come to this forum and there is not enough younger guys like yourself interested in the sport with the hunger for knowledge you've displayed.
Sure taking your car to a prep may help may help you but you are getting closer and closer each time I read this particular thread. Keep posting to this thread and this community will help you get over any mental or technical blockers you reach. There are multiple National champions sharing information that was hard won Dave W, Brian T just to name a couple and to be able to query their minds to get you pointed in the correct direction is invaluable.
If you already have the books then crack a beer and read "prepare to win", then tune to win, and engineer to win dog ear the sections that effect your current situation and digest the contents. 1 beer per book lol or you may not remember anything:thumbsup:.
I sold my Atlantic about five years ago and the Northwest Formula Continental guys put the fire back in my belly so I bought another car F2000 to go racing again, my first FC was a 1990 Reynard back in "93 after 4 years of running a Reynard FF.
Good luck and don't give up:checkered:. I'm not implying you're giving up by the way.
As many have said, the RF and LF suspension need to be the same and the RR and LR also need to be the same.
Amazing that you have done so well in a car that still has some issues that you have inherited from the previous owner.
Stick with it and you will be better off in the long run.
Kieth makes rocker arms for the front of Reynards. He can also obtain rears.
Also, did you disconnect the droop limiter when you were doing that setup? Just asking.
Don't panic without measuring. Many Reynards have rockers that appear to be different, but they are the same ratio.
Different shops use different reinforcement designs, especially on the rears, so they look different.
A quick check will tell you. Just measure from the centerline of the pivot points out to the attachment on the rocker, and centerline to attachment of the damper. Compare the two rockers that way. That will tell you a lot. i'm guessing they are the same.
It is possible for a rocker to be bent. A little harder to check for. Rare. If it happens there is usually an obvious kink in the metal. That could explain a radical difference in how the spring perches look on the two shocks. Just saying.
As a quick baseline... I set up Reynards to have very little wheel movement. In that setup "sweet spot" the motion ratio of the suspension is about .5. In other words if the wheel moves up 1" the damper compresses about 1/2". Therein lies the reason old rocker cars can't compete with modern push rod cars. Push rod cars get motion ratios of 1:1 or even higher. So, the pistons in their dampers move more and can better use the valving. In out old Reynards the pistons just "flutter". Sometimes we get better damping just running on the bump rubbers. LOL
Also, one inch of wheel travel only compresses the spring 1/2". With a 750# spring on a front corner, that one inch of movement is only resisted by 375# of resistance. So. though it seems like we are running heavy springs... not so much.
That said don't compare rocker car setups to some fast guy in a pushrod car.
Calculating corner spring rate on many fast reynards is sort of hard. We will run so stiff a spring that the flex in the rockers actually is the spring. That and the spring rate of the tire (pressure dependent). I one time thought that I could get the weight down by just replacing the dampers with adjustable rods. Much like the time I ran 1200# fronts and 1000# rears. :)
Reynards don't have to be crazy stiff to go fast. You are correct though in that you shouldn't compare a more modern car setup to a Reynard. They require different setup strategies to go fast. The newer cars are run way stiffer than you could run a Reynard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmazdatracy
Corner weights. Start by setting the rears, get them within 10lbs. Move to the front and do the same. Check the rears make sure they are still within 10 lbs. Adjust as needed to get front and rear within the 10 lbs. Job done, go race. Spending all day to get it exactly is not worth your time.
My current car, 1991 VD FC, it is a bit lower on the right side than the left (1 mm) when the corner weights are within 10 lbs. Should expect that on a chassis that is as old as mine and yours. Both are still great cars that are a TON of fun to drive!
Aaron
OK, DONE! I really appreciate all the help and the encouraging words too! I needed that. I felt that this was getting over my head but I did some more apexspeed searching and a phone call to Averill to get some finite numbers and shes done. I admit she sits way higher now. The car had no rake it it at all. And the car was 3/4" lower on the left front side, and who knows in the rear I couldn't even get under there to measure. I did measure all the rocker arms and they are indeed the same size. But most definitely not the same shape. Front has a slimmer arm and a boxier arm. Rear has a normal looking one and a reinforced one. Still from side to side the shock perches have 7 threads different in the rear and 10 in the front. :confused:
Any who last week I leveled her out, and could not get the corners to match and stopped, Tried it again a week later with a bit more knowledge and confidence and got the corners to match (within 2lbs) and then put a 1/2" rake in it (I cant get the front down as much as Averill told me to, so I don't want to go to high in the rear) and rechecked the corners. With everything set I then moved on to the alignment. Made my self some fancy alignment sticks and I got everything the way I want it. Rechecked the corners and all great! Not bad for $80 in scales $5 in hardwood (all I have laying around), and what ever I sucked down from the keg.
Also, I am now 2 1/2" below the broomstick test. But boy am I crammed in there! I hope I don't get a leg cramp :rolleyes: Lets hope I can put this stuff away.
https://newcontent.westmarine.com/co...318410_LRG.jpg
Thanks again for all the help and support guys. Three days of work and then a night time commute to the track for my next race on Sunday!
See you Sunday!
Best of Luck this weekend !
Sorry I wasn't following this until today. It helps that I am very short in a big car... Hope to be there Saturday. Dad will be crewing on Sunday....Quote:
Originally Posted by hdsporty1988
Cj aka Corky aka Cjahn (Black Stohr 71 FA; Hope to have more FAs this weekend!)
I thought I saw your dad signed up for the race with us? I hope he is doing well. I have spent many many laps with your dad and feet very safe to get up close racing with him (you can tell in my videos). I hope soon I can get faster and share the same with you. I unfortunately work today so I wont get to the track till tonight Please excuse any stupid thing I do as I am still learning to shift and find the best line for the Reynard. Hope nick lasts the whole race so you have someone to play with. :checkered:Quote:
Originally Posted by cjahn
Oh yes, i remember those regional racing days, passing just about everything on the track, and imagining that the next phone call will be from Chip or Roger. :)
Only thing bad about it; is that you lose the practice of needing your own mirrors. Enter a Major and you'll feel like the duck in the shooting gallery. But enjoy for now!
For sure, you have to feel great. Well deserved. i say. Look how far you have come since the start of this thread. Many congratulations!!!!
You have done good. You have proved again how much fun a CFC car can be.
Oh, and OBTW, Since you aren't wanking around, i may have to change my prediction about you moving up to a modern chassis. ;)
OBTW, saw the bike shop decals... I have a 1986 Torpado Super Strada (all Campy) hanging in my shop. :thumbsup:
Probably has more than 40,000 miles on the frame. Just did a full restore on it.
Too many bike nerds here. You may have 40,000 miles but have you been hit by cars 4 times? I just set my fourth yesterday. Apparently signaling to turn left here in Cali (land of the idiot drivers) is really a signal for the car to pass me on my left in oncoming traffic. Fortunately this one did not cause any damage (I cannot say the same for all of them).Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
Okay, on to racing. Two questions:
1) Is it normal for the exhaust to be that close to the bottom element of the rear wing? Seems like it would disturb air flow there. I know it is a low pressure area and so eases exhaust but there are other areas that have that trait as well. I know nothing since I drive FF and have no aero aids.
2) what is the collar on the steering rack that has a mind of its own and moves even when there is no apparent steering input? I was totally mesmerized by it for a while.
Eric Little
The white nylon bushing keeps one from turning the steering so far that it would run the rack off the pinion. A steering stop.
I too think the exhaust is too high, probably disturbing the airflow on the underside of the wing. Not a huge deal at this point in his career. Later when he's looking for hundredths of a second he can fix it. (upper element makes more downforce than the lower one) Its so obvious because he's running a muffler. We never ran mufflers, kept the pipe closer to the top of the diffuser.
I always thought car racing was way safer than riding a bike on roads shared with cars.
Nylon (or metal) stops on a steering rack are normally there to keep a wheel/tire from running into the lower a-arm, if turned too far.
The lower wing adds balance at those low to mid range speeds. While important for added rear grip, not as much as the uppers when it comes to higher speeds.
Blackhawk Farms... What a neat track. Loved it every time I managed to venture that far from home.
Congratulations!!!!!!
40,000Mi!!! Wow... I may have worked on 40,000 bikes, lol. And yes PF it is way way safer to race cars than it is to ride bikes. The day I moved back form college is the day my road bike went on sale. DeKalb and surrounding COUNTRY roads were much much safer. I remember I could spin out a quick 25Mi and see ten cars at most. Here I have customers weakly bringing in bikes after being hit by cars, and more popular... people. The "on your left" means nothing. We sell air horns and very loud digital horns. They are the only thing that works. Sadly. Its very rude but, some of my best customers are a bit older and for them to get into a incident means a great deal of down time. %90 of my riding is single track. I ride during the week. I see no one. 12-30 miles of pure apexing. Trees are a greater teacher than gravel traps. ;)
PF is right. I am out there still learning. 100ths of a second or 10ths of a second means nothing to me. Right now I am trying to master the MK9. And all the while just having fun. I have proven all I want in the last car I owned. I have nothing left in me that says my plastic trophy needs to me 1/2 inch higher than anyone else's plastic trophy (heck, I don't even bother getting it). I do however plan on removing the muffler when I get the back body work price from Averill. Till then It is keeping my neighbors happy.
One question is (and you can see in the video) it normal to wear grooves in the rear inner tires? Should I camber them out? All the rest of the tires are at the same wear, but the inner rear tires the wear marks are gone! They seem to be heat cycled out so I am not sure it this is just they way bias Hoosiers work.:confused:
On my Reynard, when it was setup well, it always used up the inner 3" of the tire first. The inner wear bars were gone and the outer half still showed life. The best way to counter that is to move your tires left/right over a weekend to maximize the tire life as much as possible. It shouldn't be cupping on the inside, which is often time an indicator of too much rear toe.
You can flip the tires on the rims after a few cycles to extend life.
Have you ever gone out on a brand new set of bias tires? You'll think you died and went to heaven. :)
Ha, yes these where new. I really could not believe the ability of them. Sadly this last time out it was slide city. 4wheel drifting in every corner. I was thinking about flipping them on the rim, just was hoping to avoid that cost. However that is what I am going to do regardless in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
Cupping = grooving ?
"Cupping" is a wear pattern that looks like someone used an ice cream scoop to scoop out some tire tread every couple of inches near one edge of the tread. Usually, it's not more than a 1/10" or 2 deep, and each "cup" can be several inches long, but you get the idea. It is usually caused by the tire/wheel oscillating due to too much flex or loose joints in the suspension.
Graining or feathering is a wear pattern that looks like circumferential, ragged-edged grooving. That is usually caused by too much sliding on an abrasive track causing stresses in the compound exceeding its tear strength.
OK, Think about it. Learn.
That last session... Were you faster?
Did the track temp rise?
What were your pressures coming off the track?
Was your session after that of FVees?
Did some big chubby motor blow in the session before yours?
All things you need to consider.
Tires could have gotten over inflated. Just saying.
Track could have gotten oiled.
Also, as you progress and get faster, you will leave behind that feeling of "being on rails".
Those bias tires have been developed to have traction slip angles ~15 degrees. If you wank around you might explore 5 degree slip angles at best. But, once you start hauling the freight you'll get more and more comfortable at the higher slip angles. And, with balance all four will be slipping the same (neutral steer).
Once you start exploring those slip angles you may start building more heat in the tire, thus more pressure, and you may have to modify your cold pressures to account for that.
Also, as the rubber pad gets thinner on the tire, it is less able to hold in heat as you fly down the long straight. So, going into the next turn the tire has cooled off more than when it was new and had a thicker rubber pad.
Sometimes in videos you can actually see the "complextion" of the rubber change as you load it and unload it. That video sometimes helps the engineers determine camber and toe angles.
My MK9 advice. Don't use the clutch. Left foot brake. Get good at throttle control to get those "blips" perfect. Easier to blip properly if you aren't blipping with the same foot as you are braking. Just saying.
I got to where dog rings lasted 5 years. Clutch discs almost forever.
Many of the fast guys clean all the buildup off their tires between sessions.
Really helps to see what the tire 'really' looks like coming off the track.
Buy a heat gun at the hardware store and a 2" putty knife, and start learning.
$80 to flip four tires at the track may be a good investment when considering the $900+ cost of the investment. Just saying.
The only Reynard I've seen that didn't run on the inside 3" of the rear tires was the fabulous FF Reynard Tony Kester won a national championship with. I believe Two Dogg modified the rear pickup points. Somebody smart like Lathrop could explain. Saw the car at the FF40th. Wow!
Last race of the season is at the end of the month. I was able to get some newer (still has rubber, but about the same heat cycles) R35s from HDsporty, This race will require me to pit, so even tho I am pretty happy with the walmart pump (one for oil and one for gas) it looks like I need to get that super expensive hand crank pump from Pegasus. But short of financial reasons this has been a great season.
But this is more of a fun race than a serious race as many will switch drivers at pit time just to share the experience (lots of father son stuff). I just hope it wont be in the 40*s. Thankfully since the car is so small I can sleep in the trailer with it. So we will both be warm in the morning. I have made some movements in the cockpit to hopefully keep my head down below the broom stick test and not have my feet go numb. Because in the last race I thought I was never going to walk again after being stuck in the car for over an hour while waiting to have oil cleaned up off of the track. This time the race alone is longer than a hour.
After that I will be posting up a few more items/questions as I will do a leak-down test and see if the motor should be pulled and sorted like the rest of the car (or just every off season the cylinder walls need to be addressed). Also I got a tail piece from CROWE Composites so I will try and get that to fit. Not to mention I need to fix the side pod properly and get that smoothed out (looks great from far, but far from great). So as some of you will be starting your on season stay tuned to read my off season. And please laugh at me if you feel like I am a dumb a$$, cause I dont take life to seriously. ;) Just want to help others who could use a nice starter guide or for the next guy whom might buy this car as in why I did what I did n stuff. So please feel free. So far there has been a tremendous amount of concentrated good info on this thread. Keep it up, and always thanks people!
Once again a big thank you to Averill Racing Stuff! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Car broke on Sunday, parts ordered Monday, and a box of goodies on Tuesday!!! Talk about your in stock Reynard parts source :).
Ok on with the questions. The lower front control arm bolt fell out, and I know this because I can see it come out and hit me in the head in the video. I however check these after weekend events. They where both tight before the race and now one is still tight and the other gone. What retention/prevention are you guys using (or remember using) on this Reynard?
I got the one conical washer/spacer thing from Averill that sticks in between the ball and the upright. But it looks like I have another one that is smaller on the bottom. Is this normal? if so where would I find the smaller one that goes on the outside/bottom? Is that just a giant safety retaining washer? Here is a couple of pics to help aid in remembering.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Qy...4=w477-h636-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GZ...Q=w477-h636-no
Patrick, it should be a retaining washer that allows the rod end to still rotate. Pegasus sells them. I have several on hand and will give you some on Sunday.
If the bolt came loose and fell out look closely. It could be that the rod end froze up and with each movement instead of the ball rotating in the rod end the whole rod end was rotating the bolt. After a while the nut would become loose.
So... carefully inspect that rod end!
I consider Rod Ends and Rocker Bearings to be 'wear items' When I have parts of the car dismantled that allow me easy access to wear items, depending on the age, I throw away and replace. If you don't know the age of this rod end, for me it is a no brainer... replace it with new.
The Swift uses a connection similar to this on the lower portion of the rear upright. I have struggled with these bolts loosening and allowing some slop in the connection. I had been soaking the threads in blue Loctite. Now, I have started replacing bolts and nuts that get loose. I use red Loctite on these bolts now. I don't use nearly as much of the red as I did the blue. One reason for changing nut and bolt is that you need good heads on both of them when you need to remove a bolt that has been set with red Loctite. It is a very stiff connection, but you can get it loose.
First of all, the bolt should be inserted from the top. Then, you need both rod-end washers of the proper size. If the rod-end is an unknown quantity, toss it and replace. Those nuts are designed to be used three times. After that, toss and replace.
Why not drill a hole and add a small cotter pin?
Bolt is inserted this way (on this car) for clearance issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
Should be able to use proper length bolt with half height nut.Quote:
Originally Posted by kea
It may be an optical illusion but it looks like your brake banjo bolts could be clocked to give a less stressful angle on the hose end.
I was debating between the red loctite and this idea, or even safety wire. However the cotter pin or safety wire might be too small and break.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
I'd suggest starting with a new nut and bolt first. These aren't joints that normally come apart. There were several tips above that should remedy any issues. New rod end, proper washers, and new hardware should solve it and while you're at it do all the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmazdatracy
As a comment to Mr. Warner's half height nut idea, half height or jam nuts should only be used when the bolt is in double shear. They don't have enough thread length for any other application.
Marty
My choice of terms was incorrect. I should have said an MS21042 jet nut with a thin washer and properly sized bolt. Thanks for the correction
ok, so a lot of the "jet nuts" spin on and off with my fingers... So I guess I will replace them all. Bolts too???
Also, what is the bearing preload for this car??? with everything off the upright it feels like the bearings are way to tight. All I have to go off of is the bike world. And if you adjust a hub to tight this is what it feels like. no flat balls just that horrible grinding of balls. I have two new bearings but not sure if they need to be replaced or just the old ones adjusted properly. I have loosened the hub bolts and the grinding goes away. However if I torque the bolts back up the grinding comes back.
If it matters this is the 90 with the aluminum uprights. I hate to keep the bolts too loose and have the hub come apart when driving.
Is this right?
Wheel Flange Retainer Bolts 26 "
Seems they would just back right out. But I guess that is what loctite and safety wire is for.
Yep, Bolts that hold attach the inner and outer hub to the wheel bearing are set to 26 Ft/Lbs.
There is no varying of pre-load on these style wheel bearings.
Jet nuts should not spin on and off with your fingers. Aircraft it is a one use and done. Most racers on a budget use them a few more times than that, but there is a limited life for them to be effective. I have worked on Reynards and Van Diemens, my preference is to replace every allen head cap screw with a correct length AN bolt wherever possible. Especially where the suspension bolts to the chassis.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmazdatracy
Aaron
Much better. Thanks! The drivers side is a bit more tight, but I would assume that sides upright will heat up more allowing for more tolerance.Quote:
Originally Posted by kea
So on a non driving incident. The side pod ripped. In a mid season repair I was able to fill the void with epoxy and backed the rip from the inside with a strip of glass. I thought everything would be smooth on the outside since the rip just zippered back up perfectly. That is until I flipped the piece over and found that the resin leaked out the rip and the rip itself is jagged.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2t...U=w477-h636-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FK...g=w477-h636-no
Question is; since this side pod is VERY flexible, what have you guys been using to smooth and fill the outside before paint that wont crack or flake?
If it's really flexible and you use it to push out of the car, add some honeycomb or foam on the inside and cover with additional glass to stiffen it up. A friend of mine gave me a "competition weight" set of sidepods, which are great for ultimate lightness and if you are going to re-do the car every year, but for longevity you have to sacrifice a bit of weight.
Scarf out the damage and then fill it with a paste made of resin a glass beads or micro fill. Putting a strip of release tape over it will help with the amount of sanding after it sets. You could also fill it with Hysol but that is a pretty expensive fix.
Did the proper torque eliminate the scraping in the wheel bearings?
oh yeah, right side is fine now. Left side is a bit tight, and at working temp I would assume it would be perfect. Back bearings have been perfect. No need to touch them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Michael
So just use the stuff I was repairing the diffuser with and not use bondo or anything like that then. Got it :thumbsup: Thanks
You might also try filling in the gap between the side pod and radiator or buying/constructing a duct if you are suffering any temperature issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmazdatracy