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fos have we broke the record? The next challenge cup event is Aug 28-30 I am preping my car and taking my uncompetive car and no driving talent to this event to race against the rest of the uncompetive cars and no driving talented drivers. We should be close to 20 cars I hope to see everyone there who is in.:greenflag:
Ray Carmody
115017 fv81
No worries Ray I have Vortec stickers for the hole pack
Dean,
Hopefully Ed's bringing the Budweiser stickers! :beer:
Mark
I went away for the weekend to a ultralight/light sport fly in and can't believe the growth of this thread. Flying has become what I want to do since racing is very expensive to do compared to light sport planes. I will be coming back to racing at the last Challenge Cup race in 2 weeks at NJ in a borrowed car just to have fun and help promote the series which I think will help lower the cost of racing.
After chasing the run offs dream for nearly 30 years and spending way more than I should have even though being a low budget racer compared to some of the top FV competitors I just became burnt out. I did do some Lemons and Chumpcar racing with some fellow NE vee friends but after getting into flying I have realized that being in my 60's I just don't need to have to do racing anymore and just want to have fun doing something that won't cost me a large sum of money that is about competition. There are plenty of vee racers that just want to drive their car because it is fun and don't need to race for 1st place to enjoy it.
The reason for a spec tire is to try to reduce one of the biggest cost to race cars anywhere in the world. Almost every pro series around the world has a spec tire and vee also dose since Goodyear's withdraw that left everyone on Hoosiers. I think going to a street tire based radial with the longevity it provides will significantly reduce the cost to compete if only engine costs and entree fees could also go down which I doubt will happen.
So if adapting the Falken tires and wheel package happens and some where down the road another tire is adapted for whatever reason as long as it is a radial everything will still be the same and the cost won't continue to escalate. This in my opinion would be the way to go since having fun and do what you like to do shouldn't keep people from doing something just because they can't afford the cost.
Ed
Mark,
I drink Milwaukee's Best Light while on the road and I don't think they have stickers!
Ed
I have been retired sense age 35 and live on a very tight budget. I have raced FV's for about three decades on the West Coast and have done racing trips to most of the famous US road courses. My son is the driver now but he is really not that enthusiastic about it. No push from him to make races. I get my enjoyment build the most sophisticated and complex FV's ever built. I am in the shop seven days a week. Building cars is much better use of my entertainment dollar than doing actual races. West of the Rockies Major events are the only SCCA races with any head count.Quote:
Originally Posted by AVR_Shane
I build manifolds and exhaust systems as requested and do engine and car development for limited clients. Have my own engine & shock dyno.. flow bench.. complete fab shop. FV is my only hobby.
I suffer from a mild form of Asperger syndrome and as such have what I am told is an abrasive writing style. I am mildly illiterate even though I have an MBA... spell check does not always save me.
On the spec tire topic I am trying to present the facts as I known them at this point. If the Falken package was chosen I would be the first to build a new car around their requirements. But based on the many contacts I have developed over the years I am pretty sure that is not going to happen. The main focus of my posts is to illustrate to rule makers how simple the choices are on this subject and get a fast decision. Falkens: low cost low performance and slicks: high cost high performance.
No need for my to drive on the Falkens as even my contacts are not going to be swayed by my opinion. You are going have to give everyone the opportunity to use the Falkens and that simply will never happen. So we are left with everyone making a personal judgement based on their racing experiences.
Brian
Brian, thank you for the response, I genuinely appreciate the way you responded. I personally agree with your facts given above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
btw, For what it's worth, I've never had an issue with your writing style :beer:
Stevan has a post on tires and wheels on the exchange:
http://www.formcarregistry.com/inter...p=32750#p32750
There is one thing that I want to caution about the big picture of everything. If FF decides to go with the Toyo's and we stick with our current slicks then that will mean that the operating costs of an FF would be far less than that of an FV. Of course the buy in costs of an FF are much higher and it is more expensive if you damage certain components on an FF but overall it would be cheaper to run each weekend.
Is that really what we want or how we want to position ourselves? SCCA isn't consolidating classes but the membership is, you don't see many FM, FSCCA, FA, or FC cars running anymore, now is our time to make a move for the good of the class. At the very least we need a Hoosier R60 type tire construction but if FF goes with the Toyos then where does that put us? I mean if they can consider going with a street tire with their purpose built cars and more sophisticated suspension then what is holding us back with our cars?
Just something to think about.....
Brian
Race cars have race tires.
Street cars have street tires.
Race cars on street tires = a crap experience.
Racing with fields of 1-2 cars = a crap experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmi16
The Falkens were a blast to run
Things race cars also don't have - drum brakes, link pin beams, swing axles, 2 gears, 60hp.
Someone should tell the spec miatas and the old UK FFs they weren't actually real race cars. :rolleyes:
That's a fallacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmi16
The most basic Smart Fortwo comes with more hp, disc brakes, wider wheels, rack and pinion steering and a 5sp. They haven't put a single barrel carb on a car/truck in probably 35 years.
In other words the equipment on a particular vehicle do not determine whether it's a race car or a street car; what you choose to do with said vehicle defines whether it is a race car or street car.
Set up a poll to see where everyone stands.Spec Tire Poll Link
This has been done and the majority wants a spec slick.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
Poll from 2012, times have changedQuote:
Originally Posted by fvracer27
Ok lets do a poll every yearQuote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
The poll didn't even call for the same set of tire packagesQuote:
Originally Posted by fvracer27
Carroll Smith said that a race car is anything you bolt a race driver into... what Carroll thought is good enough for me....
And the rest of the world have Vees on radials now for more then 50 years....you want to tell them they have or had a crap experience????Quote:
Originally Posted by mmi16
YES.... when compared to the performance of a racing on a slick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan W
Just as the rest of the world gas grown up with radials.. the US has grown up on slicks. Our judgements are made based on our history. The preference for slicks has to be over come before there is any hope of an acceptance of DOT radials.
Rhetoric and endorsements is not going to get the job down. How about buying some test time and providing wheels and tires at Daytona for a few of the top competitors to try? The Falken option needs some serious marketing to make the sale... Are you guys willing to invest in the future? Saying you will lend someone wheels/tires is not going to cut it.
Brian
Your judgements are based on your prejudices for a slick tire and your ignorance about DOT radials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Yeah, front runners at Daytona are going to waste motor and track time testing DOT Radials in preparation of a possibility for next year instead of preparing for their biggest race of the current year.
Don't be afraid of racing on DOT tires until you've done so. Many of us outside of the FV world have raced on a wide variety of tires and classes. The level/closeness of the competition is what gets many of us going.
If you just want to go faster, buy an old FA and putt around in the back going faster than any FV on the planet. Woo-hoo that would be fun. [/sarcasm]
at the end of the day we need a solution to make the Majority happy, having a Slick and a Radial will probably be the best solution.
Writing the CRB with the request ASAP is important to legalize/recognize/accept the radial as an option.
Those who want to race slicks will continue to do so, those who do not will have the option and sill be able to RACE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbrigido
A treaded radial is already legal. Any tire you want EXCEPT a SLICK RADIAL is legal in SCCA FV.
Yes, it is an alternate wheel we need approved with a DOT tire only. The 4" wide wheel does not allow for a reasonable DOT tire.Quote:
A treaded radial is already legal. Any tire you want EXCEPT a SLICK RADIAL is legal in SCCA FV.
Why are some so focused on performance difference? Yes the slick has more grip and you get quicker laps times, but who cares if everyone is racing on radials...? Every FORMULA VEE group around the world, except the US are racing on different wheels, radials, ball joint front ends, disc brakes, water cooled motors and I believe in Germany they even have wings... we are mired in the 60's, which is fine for and why we have VINTAGE...
I sometimes think, those that resist are unsure that they will be relatively as quick on radials as they are on slicks...
Those who wish Falcons as a spec tire must make it clear what you asking the SCCA for. The reason I say that is FF decision on spec tire is coming in the next few months however the DOT tire that the majority on poles voted for is not in consideration based on the RFP process put out by the SCCA. Toyo did not respond to SCCA RFP process so therefore excluded. Toyo does not have track support that was one of the requirements by racers according to other surveys and neither does Falcon.
If it gets to the point SCCS moves for a spec tire in FV, everyone asking for a Falcon will be disappointed unless the RFP that the SCCA puts out will be different then how they did the FF tire RFP.
I understand the process a little better now after requesting a FF spec tire so there are a few things to consider when asking big brother to make a decision as to what you race upon as spec.
Whether the FF guys get a spec tire or not for 2016 will depend on their responses to the recommended tire in Fastrack when BoD votes to make the proposed rule official or not in October, but I will tell you how it needs to work from an SCCA rules making process for FV.
First it needs to be driven from the bottom up. With the exception of a spec class like SRF and FE, top down from Topeka will not drive a spec tire decision for a Club Racing class. Technically Topeka does not drive SRF/FE tire decisions either, those come from Enterprises in Colorado, but you get the point I hope!
Second Internet polls while sometimes entertaining don’t mean squat. What needs to happen is a number of letters submitted to CRB www.crbscca.com requesting a formal poll of FV drivers to determine the desire and basic characteristics of a spec tire for FV. The poll would include feedback on need for track support, desire (or not) for contingencies, pricing, tire wear, etc. The FSRAC would devise a poll, SCCA sends it out and the results get published. In the case of FF this happened late 2014, CRB published a Member Advisory in February 2015 and now we have a specific proposed spec tire out there for member comment.
Next, assuming the survey comes back in favor, SCCA Inc in Topeka would issue an RFP to the tire companies. Typically the usual suspects, maybe a few wildcards mentioned (Falken, Pirelli, Bob’s Big O Tires). The manufacturer *must* be interested in the spec tire proposal and idea. We’re talking about all races across the US, not just a specific series where a tire retailer could support. If your favorite manufacturer is not interested in responding then that cuts them out of the possible choices.
Based on your survey responses, manufacturer response to RFP, a recommendation would be made by FSRAC, sent thru CRB and out to Members for comment as a proposed rule for 201X. In theory you could do all the above in 2016 and be ready this time next year to have BoD vote in October 2016 for a 2017 spec tire for FV.
The wrinkle in the above is possible tire testing. Tire testing costs SCCA time, money, resources and results are still going to piss some people off. There is very little interest at the National level or BoD level to have SCCA spend time, money, resources doing tire testing for Club Racing classes outside of spec classes. If it really came down to 2 or 3 viable FV tire spec candidates, it might have to come down to a class vote or generally agreed reasonable, independent, published tire testing and consensus building in the FV community. In other words, a bottom up decision and some degree of leadership displayed to help build that community consensus (OK agreement, consensus would be a stretch!). Not trying to be an a**hole about this but the community can’t be looking to Topeka and the other 60K members to help subsidize costs to field a spec tire for FV.
I hope the above helps. Tires are probably one of if not then biggest single expense over a season of racing for most of us competing as Club Racers.
Good luck guys…
Todd Butler
Area 13 Director (for 4 more months before parole!)
Todd has laid out the ground work and explained much of the process.
I could be totally wrong but I doubt Falkin is interested in the process that is required much like Toyo didn't seem to be for FV. Those wanting the Falkin tire should do some ground work to see if your proposed tire company will do what SCCA requires based on what Todd has written before you push for a spec tire.
Thank you Todd for explaining the process.
Thanks for the information Todd.
Currently, FV is allowed to run any tire other than a radial slick on our standard wheels. And we have one wheel variation, a 4.5" width rather than the standard VW width of 4". The wheel variation came about because there are no new VW type 4" width wheels. No trackside support is required by SCCA for the "any" tire. Clearly for a slick tire that will be used in multiples by many people over a weekend, support at the track is needed.
I see no such need for support if a second wheel with any DOT tire is approved as an alternate or a single specification.
It baffles me why SCCA would not approve a single tire choice without the trackside support as long as the tire is commonly available. I would be baffled even more if they could not approve an alternate wheel size and allow any DOT tire without trackside support.
YMMV,
Barry
Greg had mentioned it in a previous post, but everything has been moved around, Barry have an optional wheel/tires package approved is the best way.Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
We should not have to go through the "approval process" of getting a spec tire. I think we have to get the spec tire concept out of our heads as I don't think that is what is really being asked.
Ed,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
What ultralight do you fly?Ive always wanted one & have retired from F1200 and sold my car.I once saw ultralight WW1 replicas thought they were cool,so after trying to be Senna and failing miserably Ive a hankering to be the Red Baron:p.
It's funny, I was visiting my parents a couple of weeks ago. My dad pulled out the entry/qualifying list for a FV only race they held at Daytona in 1971. They were on radials, and had over 130 cars trying to make the 80 car field. That field included future Runoffs winners, F1 drivers, multiple European drivers...and even Steve Matchett of Benneton F1 and F1 race announcing fame (no, he did not make the field). An EIGHTY car field. Who really gives a crap what tire you are on when you've got that much sh!t going on out there on the track???Quote:
Originally Posted by mmi16
Exactly what are you guys afraid of that think that radials are going to ruin racing?? I don't want to hear any nonsense about car setup and slower lap times. Are you afraid of going back to the huge fields we had in the 70's and 80's? I'm confused.
The SCCA process is ridiculous, but it is the best reason why the effort should be made for an alternate wheel and tire package, not a spec tire.
Your comment perpetuates misinformation. SCCA doesn't necessarily require trackside support. In the case of FF, the survey showed competitors considered trackside support to be important. If a similar survey for FV showed trackside support wasn't an important consideration that wouldn't be part of the RFP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
Peter, since you quoted me I assume you directed your comment to me. I would suggest you read further up thread and then re-read my comment, since I am saying the exact opposite.Quote:
Your comment perpetuates misinformation.
I said, the current FV tire spec has no "trackside support" requirement. For our current Hoosier slicks it is needed however. But not for other (any) tires. I also said I would be "baffled" if the SCCA required trackside support to consider a DOT tire for FV.
You said it baffles you that SCCA would require trackside support. SCCA will craft an RFP based on survey results just as they did with FF. That shouldn't baffle you, unless, of course, you don't trust your fellow competitors to collectively arrive at your preference. The Club is saying it will give the competitors an opportunity to directly influence the outcome of the process and still you, and others, persist in misrepresenting that process.
What you're doing is misinformation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
And you're making a mountain out of a molehill.Quote:
What you're doing is misinformation.
It was reported by others that SCCA did not include a DOT rated tire in the FF class as a spec tire choice, presumably because the DOT mfr did not respond. I have no idea why or why not. Presumably it is because of a survey result for trackside support.
My comment was directed to that assertion, that I would find it baffling if a DOT tire required trackside support by the SCCA.
In fact, I find it baffling that trackside support should be required for a DOT tire. That is not misinformation.
I've not "misrepresented" anything. I did not say the SCCA would or would not craft an RFP of any kind.
The FF survey indicated that trackside support is an important consideration. Including it in the RFP produced the result that the DOT radial manufacturers didn't respond. It has nothing to do with whether or not DOT radials require trackside support and everythng to do with what those responding to the survey want.
No matter how you try to represent it, your reaction remains the perpetuation of misinformation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
What is the requirement for an optional wheel/tire choice in the GCR? Has any group been denied the option in a Region's Supps? Is this a difficult think to accomplish administratively?
Does the current use of Falken tires extend beyond the NE SCCA Division?
Brian