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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
Running a compliance check on an ECU is a *far* easier than tearing down an engine.
Front runners will always find ways to spend more money, but for everyone else, this will get them closer for less, and keep them there longer.
I don't doubt that there will always be people willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get that last 1-2 hp, it's true now with the Kent and it will be true with the Fit. But unless someone suggests that the gain from frequent complete engine changes will be worth more than just 1-2 hp, I don't think it's a valid reason to scrap the Honda proposal. The people who will save money are the rest of us in the class (which is probably 3/4 or more of active FF and CF drivers) who will not or cannot spend that kind of money no matter what the engine rules are. There's a big difference between dropping in a new engine every 4-5 race weekends and simply "making the grid." In between there is the compromise of a couple of hp in exchange for a longer interval between rebuilds. If the Honda means that I can put twice as much time on the engine before the power drop-off goes much past 1-2 hp, or if it means that my cost to replace the engine when the power does drop off is half as much (or both), I'm all for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
There's one other factor that I think has to be considered in terms of $$ savings. The cost of replacing a Kent due to a broken crank or some other major internal damage is several times what it will cost to replace a blown Fit engine. I've read enough on this forum about major Kent engine failures to know that it's not unheard of...
How long do you think it will be before engine builders get those engine costs to current FF levels? It won't take long and there will be weaknesses that will be found under competition conditions with Honda Fit engines, especially after they are tweaked.
Better get a Japanese Fit ECU ordered right now, along with your $12,000 conversion kit.
I do not see the engine swap/rebuild as an issue. As you note Tim, this has not been an issue with the Zetec. I hate to put solid number out that I can't verify, but think St. Clair told me they had close to 5k miles on the Zetec before it was pulled. I am certain some of the guys can verify their mileage figures and I can't see why those would be much different from the FIT. I am also in favor of sealing the engine to avoid the performance creep or perceived need for "blueprinting". The small up front cost as compared to the continuing cost associated with the blueprinting/performance creep will quickly be forgotten.
As for the clutch/flywheel, I would really hate to see that go. The engine ran so nicely with that in place I would hope we can map to accomodate the difference.
John
Either of these tricks could be easier and faster to check at impound than checking weight, wheelbase, carbs, fuel etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
And an infraction would likely be more seriously dealt with than the above since they could be "accidental". I think your post is much ado about nothing. :D
You're off base with that one. The ECM in this kit engine proposal is NOT a stock Fit/Honda ECM with a stock program on it. It is a racing application HPD ECU for multiple applications, using a custom map for FF equivalency. Read the rest of this thread—a lot of your potential sky-is-falling issues have already been addressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
Spend what you want on engine rebuilds, preps and whatnot. A 5,000 mile Honda with consistent performance over the lifespan of an already massivley durability-tested engine is light years ahead of the capabilities of the Kent.
One of the things people are forgetting to factor is the time needed for the engine swaps. For a small team like ours, we rebuild and refresh as needed. This normally ends up being head mid season and full engine each season.
Labor math for us as a two man team, with basic tools, who have to rent a truck to take motor to shipping depot breaks down as follows:
5-Kent engine removal/install @ 3.5 days each X 2 men = 35 man day over 5 seasons
10-Kent Head refreshes (Remove/deliver/pickup/install) @1 day X2 = 20 man days
That is 55 man days over the projected span of the Honda (Assuming 5 seasons). That is alot of time that me and my crew chief can spend with respective families/friends/work/etc and not in garage.
Maybe if the Honda is less stressed, I'm not doing valve lashes, compression tests, leakdowns, etc as often, savign add'l time. I belive the Honda has an alternator, thus I look foward not constantly charging battery and maybe not needign a jump abttery.
Now this needs to be offset by the initial install/conversion, but that is a one time labor. Once done, I'm hoping not to need the dollies to split the car for a numger of years.
If this were to go thru, we'd rejoin the FF ranks. We'd convert our FC Pinto, (If a kit were avail) or we'd buy a converted car or a convertible car (Something a bit roomier then a DB-1).
Really? I can know that my SRF hasn't had an engine change in a long time and can hang with ANY legal SRF in a straight line. The corners seem to be the issue for me:D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
Anyone who's been around racing for more than a couple of weeks knows that you can't make rules to eliminate spending. What you can do is make rules that will provide such small gains for big money that it really isn't a problem that can't be worked around. I think an engine cost 1/2 as much to replace as a Kent cost to rebuild is a no-brainer--even if it lasts just as long. Much less 3-5x as long.
Personally, if Joe Racer and I have anywhere close to the same budgets I would love for him to be putting a fresh Honda in all the time. Given our modest budgets I know he isn't spending the money I can on other bits and seat time that will make a bigger difference in lap times.
Oh, maybe 15 years or so - about the time that Honda no longer sells replacement long blocks.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
And just how are you going to tweak a stock engine? :rolleyes:
I spoke with the owner of one of the two shops in the US that are approved by RenaultSport to rebuild and seal FR engines, and he said that he has never seen an FR engine that has "worn out" or "gone soft" from high mileage. He said that he does rebuild a fair number of FR engines where the driver has downshifted the sequential box one gear too many. Apparently it doesn't take too many of these 'downshift overrevs' to hammer the cams and hydraulic lifters to the point where the engine is noticeably down on power. I asked him how long an FR engine should make the spec power if the driver doesn't bollocks the job, and he estimated at least 8,000-10,000 racing miles.Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleyjb
Remember, these new engines (Zetec, FR, Fit, etc.) are running within, or very close to, their design OEM output. In contrast, the Kent and Pinto are running about 50% above their design output, so it stands to reason that they will not last as long.
Contact Taylor Race Engineering and tell them the intended use. I did this years ago so I'm sure things have changed in regard to available materials, etc. If you already have the pressure plate the disk will have to be compatible in regard to clearances. I picked a release bearing size and pressure plate stiffness to make the clutch relatively long travel and easy to modulate driving around the grid, etc. Especially since neither my wife or I have especially strong left legs :). Taylor will know what to recommend.Quote:
Originally Posted by na94
PM me if you need more info since this is not the thread topic;)
Dick
A couple of questions that I'm not real sure about
-I can buy a Honda motor for 2,500 then buy the additional parts to make it meet the proposal performance for a additional 2,500?
-If I purchase another stock motor a few years later for, I can transfer the additional parts from original motor to new motor and save that orig 2,500.
-How often does the oil pump need service?
-Does the motor need to Dyno by a qualified engine builder before going in car, and can I use any engine builder I want?
-Could the mapping on the ECU be remapped by Honda now to meet or exceed current Kent performance?
-Were there any long term dyno testing done on Honda motor, that would give us a real good idea of it longivity?
-How long would it take for the engine and said parts to be available for car owners? And what is kind of output can Honda handle?
I'm all in favor to changing to the new engine that will cut cost. Cutting cost for me means more seat time.
Nope. You need the engine race conversion kit, which is roughly predicted to be $5050, give or take. This cost will take either a new Fit engine from HPD ($2500) or a used junkyard or eBay Fit engine (from $500 to $1000, that I have found), and add on the intake, exhaust manifold, dry sump, ECM and wiring harness, and all of the other bits and bolts to make it the race engine shown in those photos. They were talking like it was everything, right down to the fittings and hoses.Quote:
Originally Posted by TRhoades12
Yes, and no. You can buy a new engine at any time, and use your existing parts from the conversion package, but the cost is not $2500—it's $5050. Not sure where the $2500 cam from, other than the cost of the new crate Fit kit engine.Quote:
If I purchase another stock motor a few years later for, I can transfer the additional parts from original motor to new motor and save that orig 2,500.
Not sure if there are enough race miles on the custom dry sump system to know for sure. Sandy, Erik or the engineers form HPD would be better suited for that guestimate.Quote:
How often does the oil pump need service?
It's not a spec engine proposal, but a proposal with engine specs that are very restricted. They didn't say that the plan was for sealed engines, but that hasn't been determined as of yet. The plan as it sits, according to Sandy and Marc, was to have any engine builder be able to provide you with a Fit engine to race with. Sandy claimed that you could tighten up the tolerances here and there, according to the long side of the manual spec limits are, but you aren't going to get a whole lot from it. He said, it might be 1 hp all said and done, and might be in the range of $1000 worth of labor. They might be able to paint the intake plenum and plastic valve cover their engine colors and call it a day. :)Quote:
Does the motor need to Dyno by a qualified engine builder before going in car, and can I use any engine builder I want?
It would seem that the potential would be there, but according to the HPD engineers, the engine is really only capable of about 117hp without the restrictor and other electronic limitations. There isn't too much remaining up above where it is at with the parts that are on it.Quote:
Could the mapping on the ECU be remapped by Honda now to meet or exceed current Kent performance?
I was told of the testing that Honda does to all of their engines before they are put into a street car. From the bizarre tests done to determine the breaking points of this engine, I would not hesitate to bet that this engine would have very little issue in the way of longevity and durability. Racing conditions are a whole different ball of wax from street cars, but the things they did to engines under durability testing would make racing look like a life in an ice cream truck.Quote:
Were there any long term dyno testing done on Honda motor, that would give us a real good idea of it longivity?
Parts Kits and approximate costsQuote:
Originally Posted by TRhoades12
Part # 06200-F21S-A00 KIT $12,000
Complete kit for DB-1, which includes the following kits.
Part # 10000-F21S-A00 ENGINE ASSY $ 2,500
The base engine
Part # 06015-F21S-A00 KIT $ 5,050
Engine conversion kit
Part # 06020-F21S-A00 KIT $ 4,450
Chassis conversion kit
Thanks Guy's...trying to get educated on the topic
what you are saying here Peter, if I'm correct, if you are clever enough, and many here are, you could do this for $5050, if you got your own wrecked engine, and fab up your own gearbox adapter (not hard), this would be a cheap conversion IMHO.
Roger
Do you have any examples of problems like this from, um, this century? Those cited are from the 80s or perhaps early 90s. Seems a better example to avoid that is ocurring today is specmiata. How can the rules be written to avoid that and be more like the benefits of the zetec (ally head pinto notwitstanding).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
Ironically, a new "stock" SM engine from Mazda costs around the same $2500 as the proposed Fit, yet a top "massaged" but still presumably legal SM engine runs over $10K. How does Honda or SCCA propose to curtail this phenomenon in FF, or do they even intend to? A top Kent is well over that now, so maybe that is acceptable to the class.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
My guess is the guys with money to blow, are not even going to touch the Fit engine. They are going to continue to have kent engines built and rebuilt, because they want to win at any cost, and the kent engine makes more HP then the Fit. Trust me the sky is not falling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianf
Look at the rules proposed. Not much you can do to eak out more power. Yes there will be guys that drop the coin to extract as much as they can within the rules but I think it will be a waste. Damn I think the new Fit engine for $2500 will be a waste when a junk yard special for $500 is probably just starting to break in and making more HP then the new engine. :D These engines are coming out of Fit's, not 'stop light racing' mustangs.
Doug,Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Carter
I was searching E-Bay for Fit motors as part of the education process. Where are you seeing these 09 L15A7 engines listed?
I have only found 07 & 08 L15A engines, which are a different generation engine than that proposed by HPD for FF.
I will have to look at the SM engine rules, but if it's written like the proposed honda engine rules you will most certainly have $10k fit engines, but I think it will be a waste of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt King
Does anyone have dyno sheets of a crate SM engine and a "massaged" SM engine? Really curious.
This has been a very infirmative thread. I thought I was slow. As it turns out, my engine is weak because I don't do all that maintanence, and I am really not at fault!
Seriously, I don't see any real downside to this. I am a history buff/traditionalist, and I'd rather have a Ford engine in my Ford, but more than that, I rather have someone to race against, powered by any equivalent powerplant available, of any make at all. And, as I understand it;
1 ) It drives like the KENT, Handles like a KENT powered car, and sounds like a KENT.
2) No one will be forced to convert.
3 )If we don't use the engine, we may see Formula Fords converted and run in a different class [FS I believe was mentioned ], costing us in numbers of participants.
4 )ANY manufacturer would be appreciated if they would give us even a little promotional help. [but I don't see how they can promote Formula Ford, powered by HONDA!}
5 )Cost MAY rise eventually, but probably not to the point they exceed current cost. or people would just put their Kents back in.
6 ) incresed availability should mitigate increasing cost for performance gains.
If any of this is wrong [except for my rationalization in the first paragraph] somebody enlighten me.
Jim
I believe the proposal includes an offer for HPD to provide the SCCA regions with the appropriate tools (download cable and software) to police the ECU.
Another thought is to do what they did in the old Cooper Series with the Zetec. At the beginning of first qualifying session collect all of the ECUs. Put them in a box and everyone blind draws an ECU. Who would cheat when there is a better than even chance it will just hurt you?
Sean
Sounds about right to me. Well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
You are quite correct. We have built several Spec Miata motors (1.6L). We have chassis dyno'd many. We have dyno'd ours, homebuilts, several junkyard motors and several big $ motors from the big names. In our inertial runs in 4th gear all of these motors were invariably within 4 HP. While I will give you the corrected HP numbers keep in mind that these are from our Superflow chassis dyno using standard temp and pressure correction. Actual numbers may vary across dynos. The biggest motors have come in at about 116 RWHP. The lowest at 112. The lowest motor we have ever seen is a 91K mile pure stock untouched (untuned with old plugs, etc.) motor with none of the allowed upgrades at just under 100HP. The curves were very close. (Note that these motors use a Vane type air flow sensor that you are permitted to open and tweak.) So tuning that alone would have probably brought the junkyard stock motor up to 106+Quote:
Originally Posted by Formula2
We have had 2 dyno customers that went from homebuilts to big name motors. One got 2 HP and one lost 2 HP.
Yes, we have seen people spend big money for them in belieiving that alone would put them on the podium. And I am sure that will happen with any motor, thus the price increases. However, it won't hurt the guy who doesn't spend the big dollars.
BTW, since we have a chassis dyno it's a simple cheap operation to dyno one. So we usually do a set of runs after each weekend on some of our customers cars. After 1 weekend or 5, it doesn't make much difference. The HP stays just about where it was when built.
With the Honda, there would be no allowed a/f tuning and a restricted inlet, with the miata there is a/f tuning allowed and multiple intakes. That limitation alone would keep them closer. Not to mention that designer fuels are probably more valuable in a Miata.
Also keep in mind that the Miata is still well over a decade old in machining technology.
I won't argue that price will go up as each builder touts his wears and convinces people his is the hot one. That is racing. But comparing the Miata and Fit is still a stretch.
Jim
SR
From what I can see, while the ECU in this proposal might be special for the race application, the HP/Torque appears to be the same. So it would seem the a/f and timing maps etc are the same. IF that is the case an ECM burn might get you up to another 3-4 HP. However, that is not on the table, would be illegal, and is very easy to check.Quote:
Originally Posted by TRhoades12
The manufactures always keep a/f ratios at WOT in the 12:1 area or less. Peak performance usually is at 12.8 to 13.2 : 1. So that change would increase HP. Also typical timing maps are a little retarded from peak torque/hp.
This assumes that this ECU has maps in it that are close to stock and they are from what I can gather.
Over on the Spec Miata forum, they are quoting HP figures of around 112 hp for a stock Miata engine, and as much as 125+ for a pro built engine:Quote:
Originally Posted by Formula2
http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/u...ic/2/4387.html
What we heard at the 40th from various sources was that the tolerances on the Honda engine are so much tighter that a) the stock hp range is much smaller than for the Miata and b) blue-printing will produce significantly less gains than on the Miata.
That said, there are lessons to be learned from the Miata experience, and we should assure ourselves that the phenomenon of $10,000 engine builds will not become necessary with the Honda engine.
There is also a mix and match of 1.6 and 1.8L motors on several different types of dynos (in probably several different environments. I would expect a wide range. It's also not clear whether they are all talking flywheel, chassis, inertial or brake power. I wouldn't give much credence to those numbers. (It also appears most don't know the difference between a HP and BSFC, etc. :D )Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Valet
Jim
I can verify John's statement re: Zetec mileage. When I got my RF02 from then Andersen/Walko in 04 it had an estimated 7500 miles on it. It finished 2nd and 3rd at Road America the last season the Cooper Series was there with Steve Welk driving. When I sent it back to QS in the winter of 08 it had about 11500 miles on it. John Church had at least that many miles on Julianna Gonzalez' engine that same year.
The Fit thing is a good idea. It's really nice to gas and go and be competitive.....
Part # 06200-F21S-A00 KIT $12,000
Complete kit for DB-1.
I assume this does not include the longer tranny input shaft.
I understand the longer input shaft is included in the turnkey kit for the DB-1. The only item not covered is the tailpipe extension.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Rozeboom
SteveO
For those of you worried about remapping of the Honda ECU I'd say it's the least of your worries. The Honda ecu isn't an open book like the GM ecus. Only a select few have had any of the code broken and usually that's the OBDI models.
Since you are using the factory ecu and not an aftermarket checking for cheating is easy. And as others have said, you could just choose our ecu out of a box and turn your race ecus back in after the race.
In the Honda S2000 world, a similar engine in regards to how much extra power is available thru tuning, it is next to impossible to get any more power out of the ecu. For that matter it's next to impossible to get any more power out of the engine except thru forced induction. The Fit engine is similarly tuned. If you're worried about cheaters you need to be looking towards hardware not software.
I came over here not because I have a FF but I was sent this link because I'm interested in the Fit motor for a Locost. I'd been hoping you guys would get some good stuff to get me to 125hpish, but looks like you're just as locked into a set power as anyone.
If you feel strongly about this proposal in part or in full, one way or the other, be sure to write your thoughts and opinions down for the CRB to consider.
crb@scca.com
Do it! Speak now, or forever hold your... :ha:
Any idea when the crb will meet to discuss the input it has received?
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by carguy123
:D I have yet to see a stock ECU that tables and logic aren't available for. OBD1 or 2.Quote:
Only a select few have had any of the code broken and usually that's the OBDI models.
BTW, it is very easy to intercept ECU input signals and change them. Effectively accomplishing the same thing.
I almost hate to comment since I support the Fit. However, I can gaurantee you that I can get more HP out of this engine via a ECU tune. First, like all factory burns it is certainly relatively rich at WOT. Probably in the 12.0 range. Moving that to 12.8-13.2 will get more HP. Since it is fly by wire, I suspect this is also some torque limiting in the ECU. This can also be adjusted. While any of these changes can be easily implemented, it is even easier to check for cheaters.Quote:
In the Honda S2000 world, a similar engine in regards to how much extra power is available thru tuning, it is next to impossible to get any more power out of the ecu. For that matter it's next to impossible to get any more power out of the engine except thru forced induction
The ECU is not a stock unit. It will be a bespoke, sealed unit.
Dave
As well as the ECU being a racing specific unit developed by HPD, the racing version will not be fly by wire like the production car. Both according to the engineers at Road America.
What I would also suspect, which they did not state, is that the with the distribution of the maps being significantly more limited than a production car and dealer network that the maps & software can be strongly encrypted when stored outside the ECU or in transit into the ECU without all the public/private key issues that would occur in a larger environment.
Tim
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Gomberg
Key words in the sentence are WILL BE . My lips are sealed! ;)
It WAS a motec unit in the demo DB1.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20