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A story of foregone conclusions, if Latiffi hadn't crashed it would have been very difficult for Max to pass Hamilton, second scenario, foregone conclusion when the guy starting behind has new soft tires and the leader has worn out old hard tires. Two scenarios, two possible results, too bad the whole season ends up like this and not a plain battle at the end! Oh well 2022 only several boring months away!
Toto should have told Bottas he had a potential battery fire, “Stop the car! Get out immediately!”
Race finishes under yellow.
Not a bad possible strategy :o
And the FIA would have dived into finding out if it was real even before the podium...likely resulting in a team disqualification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harmison
Gents;Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Explain this to me as you would as a child, why Race Control elected to let the lapped cars move out ahead of formation to allow Verstappen (fresh soft) to hang all over the rear bumper of Hamilton (20+ laps on hard compound).
Because the rules say so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Iverson
Delete
In hindsight, it seemed like the perfect finale to a crazy season! I doubt anyone would have predicted the chase would be tied on points going into the last race, then that pole lap, then that start, then that finish! Pretty amazing!
While I like Lewis much more than Max, I was happy to see this result and the clean pass for the lead. Also, the glee I felt when Toto started having his fit on the radio was the most fun watching a race since forever!
Liberty Media??
Perhaps I missed something in this situation, but If I'm the first lapped car AFTER Ver, I would be wondering why I didn't get the chance to to unlap and potentially pass for a higher position. What made the cars between Ham and Ver special, other than the obvious "show"?
That may have worked, but not sure I’d include “ they should have” with inferences of “cheated like a lying coward.” ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harmison
Absolutely, provided we think “cheating like a lying coward” is no longer bad. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
For that matter, Perez could have wrecked Hamilton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harmison
I'm a Max fan and the race was gut wrenching but as far as this season went, Max was the better driver and Lewis had the better car.
Looking forward to next year
Not having a copy of the rules:Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
It's my understanding that the race director CAN let lapped cars pass the safety car to un-lap themselves, but doesn't have to.
It doesn't say you can choose to let SOME cars un-lap. But I guess it also doesn't say he can't do that.
Has there ever been this interpretation of the rules?
BUT, were there not other lapped cars behind Max? (there were)
Shouldn't they get that chance to compete against Max or battle for 3rd?
It appears they chose what battle they wanted to see - and there was no doubt about the outcome.
If Latiffi had crashed one lap later…..
taking into account Mercedes made 2 technical mistakes
a. Not running Hamilton long on the mediums,
b. Not covering Max’s 2nd stop (Max made 3 stops!)
I said this earlier, if Robin Miller was still with us, TGBB would have been replaced with TGMM.
Re Verstappen, I remember Skip Barber saying that some drivers are great because other drivers save them from their mistakes.
I hope the new generation of drivers don’t think dive bombing people is the proper way to race. I am semi-retired and cannot afford that….
Chris Z
ps - what should F1 (and other org) do for the future?
1. Safety car with 3 laps to go - race is over.
2. safety car with 5 or less to go - no wave around.
3. Under 10 laps to go, pits are closed. If you stop you go to back of the line.
I will leave the possibility of a red flag all as an option…
...I'm just glad it wasn't ended slowly behind a safety car or under red flags. At least there was SOME sort of racing there at the end.
That, in essence, is the source of my beef with the stewards. If they expect drivers and teams to follow the letter (and intent), of all rules, so should they.Quote:
Originally Posted by pleavens
Either Max or Lewis was worthy of the title, but the stewards should not blatantly change rules on the fly and expect no one else to do so.
that race was a farce.... manipulated bull**** to manufacture a new champion..
what a farce, and I kind of feel bad for Crash Verstappen, this is no way to win a championship.
good read on the last farce of the season for F1
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...taste/6880828/
My question for those that are unhappy with the decision to allow only half of the lapped cars to overtake, what would have changed with allowing all of the lapped cars to overtake?
It was consistent that all year the lapped cars were allowed to overtake the safety car. It would have been out of the ordinary for them to not allow them to do so.
The decision to not pit Hamilton under the safety car is ultimately what lost him the race. The lapped cars behind Verstappen wouldn't have made a difference had they been there or not. Sainz was not keeping up with the leaders on one lap pace.
To me the appeal that Mercedes intend to file wouldn't have changed the outcome.
I liked the result, but NASCAR would have been proud of how they manufactured the end of the race.
First of all let me say that I like both drivers for various reasons. Just a little tired of Mercedes world domination! But just for a minute think about the pressure the race director was under. Live action on the track with 2 laps to go and he had to make decisions with cars on track circulating and waiting to restart. The race director has ultimate control over the race and must follow the rules as closely as possible. The reason ‘someone’ must be able to ‘interpret’ the rules instead of blindly following them is largely IMHO due to safety concerns. Not all scenarios are created equal therefor the ‘judge’ must make tough decisions in real time. All this being done whileQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
2 team principals are yapping in his ear! Does he not have a mute button? I do not pretend to be an expert in these matters but I have been watching F1 for 45 years and miss the constant real wheel to wheel action of the ‘old days!’ So count me as a biased but frustrated super fan who would have felt robbed to not have at least one last lap to see an exciting shoot out finish!. There should be no shock that the final race where the 2 points leaders, who are fierce competitors would not be spectacular and controversial! After a crazy and unpredictable season the last race should not lead to a boring safety car finish. It has happened plenty of times in the past…. Yawn and guess what no nap necessary during the race! Bathroom breaks done under caution or pause only! All but the most cynical would have to agree that the fans were the big winners here!
This right here !Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
I have waited 24 hours to cool off and consider all opinions...
I thought the whole deal was a bogus Nascrap decision.
In effect the stewards allowed a competitor to pass 5 backmarkers and eliminate a 10 second deficit under a double yellow condition.
Say what you like about Mercedes pit decisions, but they had it won if the stewards had not of monkeyed it up for "the show".
Lewis had done a great job of getting enough speed on junk tires to keep Max 10 seconds back. Lewis had just managed to get past 5 backmarkers while maintaining that lead. Obviously he had it won if Max would have had to get past those 5 and make up 10 seconds. BS in my opinion.
Now back to your regular scheduled programming....
It would have taken too long to get the rest of the lappers by, and thus the race would have finished under yellow giving Lewis the win.
Really there was one outcome had the rules been followed. Either they don't let the cars unlap, and Lewis would have won under green flag as Max tried to get through the lapped cars. Or They let them all unlap, it finishes under yellow, and Lewis wins.
Instead, we got what we got.
I'm not salty about it really, I think had Max not driven such a terrible season he would have won it three or four races ago. He had the car to do it, he just kept stappen on track.
Racing for position for one thing. Possibly money for some team if they improved their standing.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
Yes, it was consistent to let lapped cars pass, but that has always been ALL lapped cars. Additionally, the procedure I have ALWAYS seen was to let all lapped cars by and do 1 more lap under the safety car.
To me, all this adds up to inconsistent race directing. If I was on a team with lapped cars in front of me on that last lap, I'd be protesting the procedure.
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2021/...-of-f1-horner/
oops that is only some rules! Bottom line the Race Director chose the winner. If Max had not pitted and Hamilton had, it would have ended under the yellow......same results, except Horner would have said Gotta follow the rules.
F1 cars and races are over optimized with the result being a boring show. The actions of the stewards this season has added unpredictability and made things more interesting. F1 is a form of entertainment. Anything that improves the show is welcome. Go somewhere else for a true sport.
Brian
One additional problem that could have cropped up if they added an additional lap before the green might have been running out of fuel or possibly not having enough fuel for a sample to be taken ala Vettel which then could have been really interesting if neither Max or Lewis had enough for a sample! Since they seem to calculate the amount they have on board including probably the vapor. Either way a messy way to end the season giving the press and fans something to argue about until the new season!
I think after he had a chance to gather himself, he realized that he screwed up at turn 5 of the last lap by not defending the inside line even though Verstappen was perhaps a little further back than Hamilton thought could possibly allow an overtake there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Iverson
My understanding is that all lapped cars are to pass the safety car. But in this case, only the 5 between Hamilton and Verstoppen were allowed to pass. I'm not a fan of either driver or either team, but this is suspicious.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
You are correct I recorded the race and watched the overtake several times. Max caught Lewis out with the quick and unexpected pass. You could have driven a semi down the inside of Lewis car. I think he thought Max was too far back and to me it looked a bit optimistic! But Max pulled it off, as he also did at the beginning of the race. This time it was clean and he did nothing wrong. Obviously the new tires helped but they both had the option of pitting for tires. As the leader trying to hold track position just in case the race did not restart Lewis was in a box with very few options. A classic example of ‘damned if you do and damned if you dont!Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
Really Nascrap!? I mean really comparing F1 with Nascar?! Wow tough crowd! F1 is a great sport and yes it is a show maybe SCCA can learn something from them. F1 may actually save open wheel racing. Do you know how many millions of kids want to be Lando Norris or George Russel alone? Not to mention Max himself. They have mass followings on social media. The Drive to Survive show is a bit hard to watch but it is making F1 stars household names. After that race you can all send Max or Latiffi a thank you note because the value of that hunk of metal and plastic in your garage just went up in value!
I think the reg says "ANY lapped cars may unlap themselves".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
So technically, a car MAY choose to stay lapped and in the middle of things.
RB argued it doesn't say "ALL lapped cars", which is correct, but it also says MAY, and in context it has always been interpreted as no emphasis on the word any. The procedure is supposed to be for everyone's benefit.
But apparently, in rejecting MB's protest, the FIA fell back on a regulation that said the RD may override the regulations if they deem it necessary. So, in this case the RD chose the champ by changing the interpretation and going against precedence.
Q: Does anyone know: Are the FIA Regs written in French (and translated) or in English first?
It went down exactly the way it should have.
Per the rules clear what ever lapped cars they could out of the way, and per an agreement made between all the teams earlier, restart the race as soon as possible, and let them race to the finish. Finishing under safety car would have made a joke out of the entire season. Just because they did it clumsily doesn't make it any less right that they did it. Rules specify the Race Director has right to restart as he sees fit.
Mercedes had the same chance to pit Hamilton for tires that Red Bull had for Versappen. They chose not to because they didn't want to lose track position to do so. They gambled, they lost.
End of story. What else is there to dispute?
Hamilton stops, Verstappen stays out, race ends under yellow…Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland
only answer is immediate red flag - Indy and NASCAR have this down.
okay Hamilton and Verstappen to VIR in Formula Fords - 10 laps to decide it.
ChrisZ
cares !
You have to feel for Hamilton, though. He was a sitting duck on that last lap with his older tires and Max' new soft tires (and no other cars between them). A HUGE change from before LAT's crash.
I have yet to find an opinion in the media that agrees with that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland
Please, post some links.
Hindsight is always easy, but the race director should have red flagged the race as soon as he saw the crash. Clean up the mess, then send everyone out in the same order they were in.
I would say a red flag would mean a standing start on fresh tires (changed during red flag). Grid position based on race order from last green lap.
They could have gotten in 2-3 laps of racing.
This was not a red flag situation under normal circumstances. It would have taken some pre-planning/scripting to have been ready to make such a decision in a timely manner. Is this game theory? The teams have all these types of events charted out and ready to respond.
Brian
And Perez should have been a "sitting duck" on 21 (22, 23; how many laps did he do in qualifying) lap old soft tires against Hamilton on nearly new hard tires...Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
...but he kept in front for one lap.
Hamilton left the door WIDE open at turn 5.
We're really only talking about 3 additional lapped cars. Had they allowed them to pass most would have been around by the end of the back stretch and 30 seconds clear of the leaders by start finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Livengood
Lewis had the call go his way earlier in the race and it went against him later on.
I agree that those not allowed to unlap themselves would have a gripe as they weren't allowed to fight for position the last lap but it didn't have an impact on Max and Lewis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
You're just reading all the English language Motorsport media (which is mostly UK based). I doubt the Dutch media in The Netherlands feels the same way. I'm not a Max fan. Nor am I a Lewis fan. I'm just being completely objective.
It went down exactly the way it should have. EXACTLY.
Here's some Dutch Press on it (from the Daily Express):
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...s-dutch-papers
And from Netherland Live:
https://netherlandsnewslive.com/max-...ampion/307910/
Not much crying going on from them it seems....
The "battle" that it split up was Vettel (in 12th) ahead of Ricciardo, and even with the retirement of Perez, neither one ended up scoring points.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
But there is no way of knowing in advance that it wouldn't matter. There could have been a pileup in front of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker
That's why the implementation of the rule has always been is either unlap ALL or None.
And that article says: With one lap remaining, Masi controversially allowed the lapped cars between. No other comments on the regulations being followed. No analysis of the regulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland
And that article says nothing about much - just a recap of the race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland
Neither say anything like "It went down exactly the way it should have. EXACTLY."
No one is saying the results should change, but most are saying the rules need clarifying and that Masi screwed up.
I didn't think Racer.com was British:
https://racer.com/2021/12/12/opinion...-end-this-way/
Even Max fan Mansell says it wasn't the right way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Ee0czVr5s
Peter Windsor is very much a Max fan and concludes the regulations weren't followed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4j-HOtNDMw
You stick with your "exactly" position. I'm open to finding someone to explain the interpretation of the regulations that say it was done right.
Why do you guys focus on one incident or decision when talking about the championship?
Because people spend a lot of time and money to race. Obviously F1 is the ultimate racing chess match with many decisions being made in the pits by the various teams utilizing statistics and data to optimize their chances within the current ruleset.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey
When they make those decisions they have an expectation of the sanctioning body to follow the same ruleset they have put in place for that year.
No matter who you are racing with when you lose because the rules you are playing by are applied differently on different days you've thrown away all of that time and money and for all intentions the game may as well be fixed.....
All right all right:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Daily Express:
Bernie weighs in
Former F1 chief executive Bernie Ecclestone has jumped to the defence of FIA race director Michael Masi despite suggesting that he is not the right man for the job on a long-term basis.
"In many cases he was overwhelmed with his job all season and maybe shouldn’t have had it at all," Ecclestone told Bild.
"In the end, though, he made the right decision to let Lewis and Max race against each other again on the last lap.
"It would have been unfair to end such a season and such a finish with the safety car.
"Hamilton would have been world champion and all the fans would have said: 'What are these stupid stewards doing?'
"No, he did the right thing in this case."
Sounds to me like exactly. That's just one example. There are others out there. But I got more important things to do than research all this.
When you're subjective you see what you want to see, when you're objective you see everything.
Interesting - Liberty stock near high but not done much since the race - either stock holders not sure or outsiders not paying much attention.
Just to summarize before I sign off this thread, I have been critical of decisions all year, not just this last race, as the driving rulings do have some effect on new driver’s attitudes. As an instructor and mentor, it was one thing to fight the NASCAR mentality, I really don’t want to have to explain why not to drive like a F1 driver. ????
Plus, as Motorsports enthusiasts, we are asked about racing from the general populous, and I like to talk in positive terms.
ChrisZ
I believe this is a forum used mostly by people who race open wheel cars or maybe did so in the last 30 years...
Put yourself in this example:
You are leading the Runoffs with only a few laps left. You find yourself not only in the lead but leading by 10 seconds and with 5 back markers between you and second place. Then another back marker wrecks and ends up parked in a dangerous location. Double yellow flags come out. During the next couple of laps the stewards allow the 5 backmarkers to get their lap back and pass you. They also allow 2nd place to move up behind you. Then they wave the green flag and white flag to signal one final lap under the green for the national championship.
What would you think of that deal?
I think you would be pissed that they took away all the advantage you had gained.
Mercedes had plenty of options to change the tires, they made a calculated error. Not a big fan of the out come, but stuff happens when racing and the team at that level with how many smart people (50) sitting at the table made a judgement call that was not good for the end of the race.
To many media people have opinions rather than talk about facts, so lets all go and make the call after the fact, because we now have all the details and can probably make a better decision. :debris: