DB1 Side Impact

I thought this might be interesting for those who race with the FV/FST guys. It was no fault of either car. The FST had a small cage at the back of the transaxle, in fact larger than some I have seen. But still kind of pointy in design. If there wasn't a cage around that pointy shift linkage the results to the Swift driver could have been a lot worse. The transaxle went into the cockpit, between the frame bars, just above the hips by about 1/2 inch. The bruise he has is HELLACIOUS!

The Swift went sideways into the FST, so this was a slower accident than the FST going backwards into the side of a DB1.
Why am I bringing this up? Which is better? Thicker fiberglass, Kevlar, a combo of ?? for side protection? Along with making sure the VW guys have something larger covering the back of their transaxles? (I'm asking for some flaming there aren't I!)

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Originally Posted by T644HU05

Why am I bringing this up? Which is better? Thicker fiberglass, Kevlar, a combo of ?? for side protection? Along with making sure the VW guys have something larger covering the back of their transaxles? (I'm asking for some flaming there aren't I!)

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According to Fiberglast, the tensile failure point for Kevlar is more than 2.7 times greater than that for fiberglass for equal weights of the two materials, so I would have to conclude that kevlar is a better choice for anti-intrusion panels than is fiberglass. Blowing up this photo, it appears that the DB1's body panels are made of CSM with a layer of plain weave e-glass as the inner skin, which clearly did not provide much intrusion protection.

The rules for pre-1986 FFs do not require anti-intrusion panels, but IMO one is foolish to not take advantage of them.

Stan

The best combination is Kevlar and glass. I would repair the bodywork using a woven fiber glass of medium weight. I would then use 3 layers of 5oz satin weave Kevlar with epoxy resin vacuum bagged to soak up excess resin.

The Kevlar should run the length of the drivers compartment from top to bottom. It really should be vac. bagged to get the excess resin out because it is the resin that embrittles the fabric. More resin=more brittle. Brittle is, obviously, bad.

Or, better yet, have new side pods made out of Kevlar with a couple layers of WOVEN glass.

SEM

P.S. We can do that.

CCE, Llc
ccecomposites(dot)com
802-758-3233

Thanks Steve, but I don't own the DB1. I have a Lola. Aluminum lower side panels, fiberglass (thin) upper. It would seem easy enough to bond kevlar of an appropriate thickness around my shoulder area to the upper bodywork. But, the lower, being made of aluminum...it seems that anything trying to poke it's way through aluminum first would break the bond of the Kevlar to the aluminum making the point of having it there worthless. Am I assuming wrong or is the bonding agent better then I'm guessing?

Well, adding Kevlar to the shoulder area of your Lola would be a safe move. Bonding to the aluminum on the inside would not really be benificial for the reasons you pointed out in your post. However, bonding Kevlar to BOTH sides of the aluminum panel would be beneficial. How benificial? Tough to quantify but it would help.

SEM

Kevlar can be easily added as inside layers to existing fiberglass bodywork. Here's how we did it recently for a customer: cut out enough kevlar to make two (minimum) layers, making sure to have a couple of inches overlap if you can't make it from one piece. Cut a layer of light fiberglass as the final layer. Lightly sand the surface to be bonded to with medium sandpaper, vacuum off the dust, then clean the surface with acetone and paper towels. Acetone will not only remove the last of the sanding dust, but also softens isophthalic vinylester resins to aid with bonding the new layers to the existing bodywork fiberglass. Lay the side panel inside up on a table and position the first layer of kevlar in the panel. Weigh out enough vinylester resin to equal the weight of one layer of kevlar, mix in the MEKP and wet out the first layer of kevlar. Repeat with the second layer and subsequent layers of kevlar. Finally, position the fiberglass layer and work it into the kevlar with a roller. There may not be enough resin to completely wet out the fiberglass, so be prepared to mix up a small batch to ensure the fiberglass is completely wetted out. Vacuum bag if you can, but it is not strictly required. If not vacuuming, use a roller and stipple brush to work out voids.

Bonding kevlar to aluminum sheet is also straight forward, especially for non-structural purposes. Here's an easy technique: Thin epoxy (not polyester or vinylester) with acetone (try ~5% by volume), then scrub a thin layer into the sheet aluminum laying on a flat surface with a scotchbright pad and allow to setup (you want to leave a layer of it on the aluminum). This seals the surface to prevent the oxidation which makes bonding to aluminum difficult, and leaves the surface with a thin layer of epoxy ready to add laminates to. Proceed as above with kevlar and 'glass, except using epoxy in place of vinylester.

Be sure to employ all the usual precautions and safety equipment.

I would like to encourage every one to follow Stan's advice on the Kevlar panels in the cockpit sides, especially Swifts and any other cars without side pods. That should include FVs as well.

Each layer of Kevlar, when vacumed bagged, is about .008 to .010 thick. Aluminum and Kevlar are about equal strength for equal thickness. The rules recommend .060 aluminum, thus you should have at least 6 layers of Kevlar.

A friend described a method to do lay ups that gives excellent results and makes the process much easier to achieve professional results.

In addition to the Kevlar, resin, and hardner, you will need a sheet of kraft (or craft) paper and large sheets of plastic wraps. Lay the paper on a flat surface. Cut the Kevlar to the size you want. Lay the Kevlar on the paper and cover with resin and hardner. Take a squeegee and work the resin into the Kevlar. Work the Kevlar until there is no resin on the squeegee when you pass it over the cloth. Next cover the Kevlar with a layer of plastic wrap. Turn the paper over and remove the paper from the Kevlar. Repeat the proceedure only lay the second layer on top of the first and remove the paper. Now place a second layer of plastic wrap over the lay up and roll the plastic covered lay up and place in the fridge. Repeat the process for the number of layers you are doing. The lay up will last for a week in the fridge. He recommended no more that 3 layers of Kevlar to each layer in plastic.

Prepare the inside of the panels. Take the rolls of the lay ups and trim them to fit the panels. Remove one side of the plastic and work the lay up into the panel. The plastic can be removed after the layer starts to setup.

Good Luck and heed Stans advice.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Good Luck and heed Stans advice.

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I am the owner of the DB-1, and the possesor of said "hellacious bruise" which is just smaller than a compact disc.
i wish i had some kevlar. i am posting this so others take this seriously and think about it, and hopefully dont take a hit like i did.
if this was a few inches lower, my hip would be wasted big time, a few inches higher, my ribs would be more broken than they already feel like they are.
the dr. will check things out on wed. AM., but i think there is at least one ribs broken. i had broken a rib before playing soccer, and this feels just like it.
I think in the big picture, i got away easy.
note: i had to crop out my butt crack in the shot(sorry ladies), and the "fat" above the bruise is mostly swelling, and not due to my steady diet of snickers bars, and big macs.

I’m an “old” sedan driver looking at getting back into racing and FF or FC seems like fun – especially in the manner this group seems to do it. But I am also used to at least a metal door skin, large door bars and a fair amount of crush space between me and what ever hits the door (I’m also worried about my feet…). I don’t see that in a FF (at least in the vintage I’m looking at) and it has been a concern of mine.

So when I saw this accident unfold it was (at least for me!) a golden opportunity see how both the driver and the car held up. Car did OK, unfortunately it was one of those out of the ordinary impacts. If the side of the FF had not hit the “cage” that protects the shifter on the FST and then that “cage” pass between the frame tubes on the FF there would not have been any actual contact to Josh’s body and he’d feel much better today (hope you feel better).

So I guess the question is – how far do you (or are you willing to) go in order to prepare for every possible outcome? Especially when running a non-current car in a “gentlemen’s” racing series. I’d think some steps could and should be taken, but you don’t need to go overboard. Some of the suggestions presented here give me food for thought not only in my car choice but some simple changes that could be made to protect me without changing the car too much.

I wonder how the aluminum skin and fuel cell on a Lola would have held up under the same impact… or what if the shifter “cage on the FST had more surface area?

I would like to second any encouragement being given to those Swift owners thinking of upgrading to Kevlar side panels.

About 10 years ago I was heading up into turn 2 at Sears Point (Infineon) just after the green flag of a FF race. As we reached the braking zone I was punted in the rear and started a wild spin. At some point I contacted a few other cars and had the right front wheel, hub and upright torn off. This damage left a very sharp piece if a rocker sticking out as I contacted the main body panel of another Swift DB1 (I think it was Ken Rozeboom's), The rocker cut through that side panel like a hot knife through butter.

Fortune was shining that day and the rocker merely cut a horizontal slot through that panel and as I remember it his driver suit about where his kidney is located and no deeper. It was sheer luck he did not have his side sliced wide open as it wasn't anything other than a change in direction of my car sliding along the pavement that stopped that intrusion.

That accident really shook me up and I was not even on the receiving end of my razor sharp front rocker. I just sat there looking at that DB1 side panel realizing we had dodged a major bullet that day.

Kevlar side panels. :thumbsup:

It surprises me that there are DB1's out there that don't have the Kevlar inserts installed. We did this way back in 1987 just after Richard Wakefield (at Riverside) had a lower wishbone come thru the side of his DB1.

I believe we may have been the first to do this. It's an easy fix and it works. If your DB1 doesn't have this mod...do it soon.

Gary Hickman

In college I was on the Human powered submarine team at Texas A&M and we built the hull using Kevlar and honeycomb. Kevlar is some pretty interesting stuff. Unlike fiberglass fibers, Kevlar fibers do not break when the resin fractures. When we did some testing we found that even though the resin would fracture and break up, the Kevlar fibers did not break which helped to keep the integrity of the fabric intact. It is some pretty neat stuff. A word of warning though to those working with it. You cannot sand Kevlar!!! Imagine an old sweater that gets "bally" from washing it too many times. That is more or less what Kevlar does when you sand it. If you try to sand down Kevlar you end up with a horrible surface covered with tufts of Kevlar poking up. If you want to do any sanding or shaping afterwards make sure you put a layer of fiberglass over the top. The more you need to sand and shape the thicker the fiberglass needs to be.

I'm glad to see that where still able to walk away from the accident Fishguy. I will make sure I add this as one more thing to my checklist of things to look for in my search for the right car.

Hmm...what's happening here?:rolleyes: (Sorry Fishguy, I couldn't resist. I'm taking full advantage of your sense of humor...see you next week!)

Kevlar's strain to failure of 3% makes it a great energy absorber. That is one of the reasons why it is used for Commerical jet engines spinners. The FAA requires the spinner to take a 250knot strike from a 2.5 lb bird and continue flying for 20 minutes. That is why it is so tough to cut and sand.

John, I've been asking myself the same question with my RF78. How much hazard do you "accept"? Let's face it, some safety improvements can adversly affect performance, adding weight or aerodynamic drag. I do plan on improving intrusion protection, which is fairly low mounted weight. I am also considering a high front roll hoop or brace, which I believe RCCA calls an "anti-decapitation bar". But that is high mounted weight, and adds aero drag, and would only be of benefit in a freak accident. But if you have that freak incident ... ?
Steve

Stephen -

The RCCA Decap bars required if you run in one of thier club classes. I had them installed in my RF-85 by Formula Haus. They made them so they were removable in case I sold the car. That was the case as current owner removed them to save the weight (I beleive he ran Autocrosses exclusively). If I were to do it over again, I'd make them higher, so they ended at a point that was higher then my head.

I'm doing my bodywork now. Upper bodywork already has Kevlar, but I'm going to add at least one more layer topped b a layer of s-glass. If I have any scrapes left over, I my put sone kevlar on the outside edges of my seat. I figure, using 3 yards kevlar total, plus glass, plus epoxy, total weight increase will be less then 3 lbs...

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Originally Posted by stephen wilson

John, I've been asking myself the same question with my RF78. How much hazard do you "accept"? Let's face it, some safety improvements can adversly affect performance, adding weight or aerodynamic drag. I do plan on improving intrusion protection, which is fairly low mounted weight. I am also considering a high front roll hoop or brace, which I believe RCCA calls an "anti-decapitation bar". But that is high mounted weight, and adds aero drag, and would only be of benefit in a freak accident. But if you have that freak incident ... ?
Steve

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My concern is not the adverse affect any safety additions might have on performance as I’m not interested in racing flat out in a (how do I word this?) “Serious” race series – been there, done that. I’m just looking to go out & have some fun, but also within reason keeping the car as original as I can (in a way I’m living a second childhood – but this time with no roof or doors) while being reasonable safe. But if the car is not safe and I do receive an injury it definitely will not have been fun.

So there will have to be a compromise – how much can I change the car & still have it look as it did in the '70’s ~ ‘80’s? In the case of Josh’s Swift it seems that the addition of some basic side impact protection would not change the cars look significantly and given the type of racing he does with it the level of performance would not suffer. But his level of safety will be much greater.

As for planning for every “freak” accident – you can’t. If risk were the only issue we’d not be racing. What you can do is weigh risk and plan accordingly. I the almost 20 years I’ve raced I’ve seen only one fatality and the only thing that would have saved the driver was if he hadn’t been driving a right hand Pantara – how freakish is that??

Are there any issues with using epoxy resin to laminate the Kevlar to the existing bodywork? I normally use West System for any repairs to existing 'glass that is structural in any way. I use polyester for non structural repair to bodywork. I've never used vinyl ester that I know of...

Brian

Good question, Brian! :thumbsup:

I used the example of vinylester because that's what the bodywork we worked on was made with and because kevlar works so well with vinylesters. If you know that your bodywork is made from something else, then by all means use that resin when adding kevlar layers. Kevlar fabric will generally work okay with epoxy, but the sizing used with most kevlar is most compatible with vinylester. The common sizings used on kevlar are least compatible with polyester, so I don't recommend using it. Just use vinylester as it will form a decent secondary bond with the polyester and adhere well to the kevlar.

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Originally Posted by T644HU05

Hmm...what's happening here?:rolleyes: (Sorry Fishguy, I couldn't resist. I'm taking full advantage of your sense of humor...see you next week!)

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Not funny!

It could be you next time, this is a serious thread with welcomed suggestions. I don't know you, t644br549, but I think you might be a rookie in these cars, or extremely lucky if you think this is a joke. I respectfully suggest that you reserve your humor for the comedy page, and listen/learn from what is being said here. This is not a game, only a sport that some of us are trying to make safer. I hope that you don't get hit, or hit someone in your Lola like this during an on track session and suffer physical pain or worse, it won't be funny then to you or your family.

I'll leave it at that.

If you would like to speak further on this matter, I live close to you, call me, and we can discuss it.

Respectfully,
Marshall Lillquist

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Originally Posted by marshall9

Not funny, could be you next week.......WTF ?

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Yep, could be. Could be you...could be anyone. We talked for 45 minutes last night, if he has a problem he'll tell me.

Lighten up, if I didn't care I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. Do you have kevlar in your DB1? If you don't, did this thread help you in any way?

okay, i didn't know that you talked to Josh for 45 minutes. If I had known that, I would have not commented on your lack of humor. The mere fact that you talked to him for 45 minutes is the equivilant of fixing the side intrusion panels tenfold, please excuse me.

Sweeet! Side intrusion is now fixed! Now, I start on world peace. You're excused. Let's stay friends, we have to share the track. (BR459...now that's funny!)

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Originally Posted by marshall9

okay, i didn't know that you talked to Josh for 45 minutes. If I had known that, I would have not commented on your lack of humor. The mere fact that you talked to him for 45 minutes is the equivilant of fixing the side intrusion panels tenfold, please excuse me.

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marshall,
T644HU05 has been my pit crew for the last 2 races. He is my friend, and has expressed concern.
if i had a problem with any of this, believe me, i would say something to him directly.
i have no issue with his picture, other than it made me laugh hard, and right now, that hurts to do.
I also appreciate your concern for me as well marshall.
lets keep this about making the sport safer.
T644HU05, thanks again for helping me the past few weeknds, w/o that help, i am not getting out on the track. :thumbsup:
it was one of those things that happen, but are not that likely to occour.
my car was not prepared for this, and it doesnt matter if the club you race with has strict rules and tech, or no rules, and no tech, it was my bad for not addressing this prior to it happening. it will be taken care of before the car goes back out. i am actually thinking maybe some kevlar on the nose piece as well. some of the cars have bars coming out the back like sway bars. I dont care if its not "deemed neccesacry to need to be there, but i think fiberglass is not sufficeint for protection for anything other than the wind at speeds.

John,
High mounted forward braces like Ambrose mentions would be easily removed when you sell the car. Kevlar could also be added and not be seen from outside the car.

given this most recent "near miss", isn't it about time the FF community demanded the bodywork rules in the GCR be updated to allow Kevlar reenforcement of bodywork between the front roll hoop and the front bulkhead??? rules that do not allow Kevlar protection of legs, knees, ankles, and feet make ZERO sense to me!!!

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

Art, the use of kevlar is perfectly legal in any year FF. It's just that anti-intrusion devices are not required on pre-1986 cars like the DB1, as they are on all later cars. Stan

Stan-

required / not required isn't the point. carbon fiber in FF bodywork is NOT legal except Kevlar between the front and main roll hoops between the top and bottom tubes as a means of lateral intrusion protection. it's my opinion that legs, knees, ankles, and feet deserve the same opportunity for protection as the torso; ie: Kevlar between the front hoop and front bulkhead between the top and bottom tubes................


FF 9.1.1.D.6.b The area between the upper and lower main frame tubes from the front roll hoop bulkhead to the rear roll hoop bulkhead shall be protected by one of the following methonds to prevent the intrusion of objects into the cockpit.
1. Panels(s), minimum of either .050" heat treated aluminum (5051.T6 or equivalent) or eighteen (18) gauge steel, attached outside of the main frmae tubes.
2. Reinforced body - at minimum, consisting of a double layer, five (%) oz., bi-directional, laminated Kevlar material incorporated into the body which shall be securely fastened to the frame.

FF 9.1.1.D.7.g Carbon fiber is not permitted.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

Stan has given good advice in this matter,vinyl ester has excellent impact resistance,however a good hitemp epoxy has much better mechanical adhesive qualities/bond strength than vinyl esters or iso polys .(as Stan stated, you need to have a pristine substrate for ANYTHING to stick) Kevlar does not absorb resin say like e-glass does so you need a resin that encapsulates the fibers and has excellent adhesion in the mechanical state rather than relying on the open chemical sites present in original laminations which would give you the ideal physicals ,also I would recomend ensuring that ther was sufficient heat to cure the resin 100 f would be good with room temperature cure resins. We have fabbed many formula car bodies with the required kevlar layers using iso polyester which works well in the parent lamination as per the rules. For the highest performance I would reccomend epoxy for secondary bonding though.
Dave Craddock

Art:

Kevlar is indeed perfectly legal in the bodywork. The rule you quoted on penetration protection requirements is in the Chassis/Frame rules (section D.6.), which has no bearing on further bodywork allowances that are stated in the bodywork rules starting in section D.7.. Since the bodywork rules don't express any material restriction other than against Carbon Fiber, kevlar is permitted.

Also, since all but 3 DB1's are governed by the pre-86 rules, they can also use kevlar as there are no restrictions in that ruleset either. (Actually, there is no restriction against CF also!)

You can use kevlar ANYWHERE in the bodywork you want, OVER AND ABOVE the minimum requirements as stated for penetration protection. This is what was changed 13 years or so ago.

Gee, Stan - pointy tubular structures penetrating car side panels... Who would have thought that was a danger?:D

Richard-

thanks for the input and your opinion. has DuPont found an alternative for carbon in their formulation for Kevlar 49? last time I took a composite structures class the carbon in graphite and the carbon in Kevlar 49 were the same. if it's the Club's intent to allow Kevlar, the rules need changing. it's my opinion that unwritten gentleman's agreements and trick vocabulary is no way to run a Club that has a written rule book.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

Art,

The presence of carbon in kevlar doesn't make it carbon fiber, any more than the carbon in resins and paints makes them non-compliant. Kevlar is a long-chain polymer condensed from two monomers, mechanically drawn into threads with large numbers of N, H and O atoms in the polymer chains. Carbon fiber, OTOH, starts as an acrylic fiber which is then heated to a couple of thousand degrees to drive off all but a few non-carbon atoms, fundamentally changing the molecular bond structure. The end product has about 95% carbon. In short, there are substantial chemical and physical differences between CF and kevlar. Without there being any back room deals or other slight of hand, SCCA does not consider kevlar to be carbon fiber, and so far as I know nobody else does either.

Richard, the FST in question is noted in post #1 as having a protective tubular cage at the rear, but the post actually states that the damage would have been worse without it. FSTs, like FVs, have the stock pointy gear selector shaft sticking out the rear end as in this photo:

http://www.carstudio.co.uk/carstudio_img/formulavee.jpg

No lances here... ;)

Stan

Since it was mentioned, I dug around and found the only picture I have of the actual transaxle cage that poked Fishguy. (red car) I then found a picture of my old Vee's protective bar for comparison. (bright yellow) It seems that they are intended more for protecting the shift linkage from "bumps/pushes" from behind. I still prefer them compared to what's shown above!

By the way, I'm glad I asked! Lot's of great info. Thanks Apexspeed!

I am really glad the car had the protective cage on the pointy gear selector shaft sticking out the rear end. I would think i was much better off having the rounded cage which likely made it so that I was not impaled, or even cut.
IMO, that cage should be standard on all those cars, it made my encounter safer, and that tough little FV was back out the next session.
I have been looking at some pictures of other cars, i think it was a zink front end with the fiberglass bodywork removed............. pointy bars to hold up the bodywork. just more reasons to have my/your cockpit lined with kevlar. I dont want to think about getting t-boned by one of those w/o all the protection available.
The thing that amazed me most about this entire incident is that if i had not had the secondary side impact with the V, I would not have had a scratch or even a bruise on my body. the cars design did just what it was supposed to do. i was going ~60-70mph at the time of impact( i am guessing from my rpms at that part of the track, and looking at my gearchart). the corners got crushed, and kept me safe. I come from racing tin tops, and i feel very safe in the small light FF that was designed for something like this to happen.
Tire barriers work much better than i imagined also.
Either way, it looks like i am OK, i got away easy, and the car can, and will be fixed. i just hope its in time for the next event.

Art:

"Kevlar' is a registered trade name for a particular fiber material, not a description of its chemical makeup. As such, the allowance for the use of Kevlar is for a material marketed under that trade name. No semantic trickery there at all - you won't find a single person in the composits industry that would confuse Kevlar with Carbon Fiber or think of it as chemically or physically the same material, because it isn't!

Stan:

As usual, you seem to be in denial of facts, the laws of physics, and the history behind the rules. We argued before about the dangerousness of tubular structures on the front of cars when arguing over the mandatory crush structure rules for the front of the cars. Thankfully, you lost that arguement ( mandatory vs non-mandatory) and with the exception of the still-allowed tube nose frame on the FMs, the Directors saw fit to force the CRB to reinstate the rule last spring. The accident outlined here with a rear tube structure is a perfect example of why I argued for a ban on tubular structures on the front of cars, and the fact that you don't seem to recognize that example for what it is, is downright scary.

As an FYI, the reason originally for the rear frames on FVs was to keep guys from being able to purposely bump you out of gear - a pretty common practice for a while! :D A side effect was that cars were then able to safely bump-draft, and as a result, most of the protective cages were made with a tall vertical tube that extended almost as high as any frames out there. The manufacturers all pretty much agreed for many years - outside of what was said in the rule book - to use that vertical tube for exactly those same safety reasons I've agued about. The result was that in contacts like this one,(and we've seen many over the years) the vertical tube always positively contacted multiple rails in the sides of the car being hit, spreading the load over a larger area and pretty much preventing any meaningful penetration past the rails. Protective cages with reletively small area ends like the one here can and will punch through cockpit side panels, kevlar being present or not, unless they squarely contact a frame rail.

Unfortunately, we seem to be drifting towards rules makers/advisors who have little to no understanding of these issues.

Our old car (RF-85 FF) had a "Rear Bumper" (Required in club class). Below is a pic of it. To me it is a fine idea. Most of them are tublar like mine. Some guys have aliumiumn boxes. There may be a couple fiberglass units out there as well. One is even made of wood.

It is removable by pulling 2-4 pins.

It protects safty workers as it allows for an ATV to push the car out of an unsafe area (Having the option to Push, vs being Towed is alwasy nice), without the worker ever getting off his ATV. It allows for more hot retrievals and more green flag running. Anything to reduce Black all or Double Yellow is a good thing.

It can also be used to bump start a car if needed.

I can see how it can also reduce likleyhood of cockpit intrusion as the vertial bar will probably come into contact wiht some frame tube before entering the cockpit.

In one case it save me big $$$ when I backed into the wall, it totally protected my tranny.

Knowing most guys don't have this, and since I'm doing bodywork this winter, I plan on adding Addl layers of Kelvar to my Citation. Rather then just Epoxy it over the cleaned and scuffed existing Kelvar, does anyone in the NY, NNJ, PA, Southern CT area have the ability to do this right (Vacum Bagging)?

That's an exellent idea that someone came up with - it most likely wasn't intended as an impact safety devise, but it will certainly be a big help. While it won't do much in the way of reducing decelleration forces in a predictable manner - it isn't a "crush structure" after all - if you backed that car into the side of another, the chances of the sort of punch-through we are talking about will be greatly reduced because of the load being spread over a larger area that will most assuredly include frame tubes.

The remaining issue with tube structures impacting and collapsing is just what happens with the still-remaining broken stubs of tubes that can pierce the driver - we unfortunately cannot predict accurately just how the tubes will bend and/or break as they collapse. I had a long conversation about this last year with a well-known engineer that years ago was part of the Ford design team for their Safety Car research program many moons ago. That project originally started using a lot of tube structure, but they soon decided that the collapse rates and just where things collapsed or bent was way too unpredictable, necessitating a changeover to sheet materials instead.

If the Club CRB was smart, they would take the lead in sorting through these sorts of issues rather than waiting until after the fact.

just got back from the doctor, and i am fine. just a big bruise, and either I broke a rib, or just aggrevated a previously broken rib from last year. i guess i like to hit myself on that side while doing my sports(cars/soccer).
I did in fact get away very easy.

i was just out looking at the car for the upcoming repairs, and looked at my seat. it was brought up about having a bead seat vs. a foam seat. i had a foam seat that was made by/for the previous owner of the car. it was adequite for me, so i just used that. turns out that the section that would be just above the waistbelt mount helped me out quite a bit. it took a big hit, and it crumbled and is "gone" , other than a section remaining with the duct tape cover. its remains are broken in a straight line and clearly shows that it took some of the impact(most i think). w/o this "flap" of foam it would have been bare hip or whatever part took the shot.
there is no doubt in my mind that it helped me, how much, i dont know, but i do know that it helped me out.

I understand the bead seats are much better protection for the driver, so thats what i am going to use for the new seat that now needs to be made. I will also make sure that the seat comes up enough around me to give me some added lateral impact protection. if it happened once, it could happen again.
my responce to this ordeal is going to be the kevlar added to the cockpit side, and the bead seat. i also want to put some kevlar in the nose of the car to protect legs and feet in case of an intrusion.

When applying the layers of kevlar and eglass, should it all be cured in one shot, or cured in layers (ie using fabric peel-ply to promote bonding between layers)?

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Originally Posted by R. Pare

Stan:

As usual, you seem to be in denial of facts, the laws of physics, and the history behind the rules. We argued before about the dangerousness of tubular structures on the front of cars when arguing over the mandatory crush structure rules for the front of the cars. Thankfully, you lost that arguement ( mandatory vs non-mandatory) and with the exception of the still-allowed tube nose frame on the FMs, the Directors saw fit to force the CRB to reinstate the rule last spring. The accident outlined here with a rear tube structure is a perfect example of why I argued for a ban on tubular structures on the front of cars, and the fact that you don't seem to recognize that example for what it is, is downright scary.

As an FYI, the reason originally for the rear frames on FVs was to keep guys from being able to purposely bump you out of gear - a pretty common practice for a while! :D A side effect was that cars were then able to safely bump-draft, and as a result, most of the protective cages were made with a tall vertical tube that extended almost as high as any frames out there. The manufacturers all pretty much agreed for many years - outside of what was said in the rule book - to use that vertical tube for exactly those same safety reasons I've agued about. The result was that in contacts like this one,(and we've seen many over the years) the vertical tube always positively contacted multiple rails in the sides of the car being hit, spreading the load over a larger area and pretty much preventing any meaningful penetration past the rails. Protective cages with reletively small area ends like the one here can and will punch through cockpit side panels, kevlar being present or not, unless they squarely contact a frame rail.

Unfortunately, we seem to be drifting towards rules makers/advisors who have little to no understanding of these issues.

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I guess we have differing views of history, Richard. FVs had exposed pointy ends and tube frame front and rear structures for more than 40 years before I joined the CRB; Formula Fords for over 35 years, and F500s for at least 20 years. So please don't try to pin this on me. That said, I'd be happy to support revised standards that work and are practical without "outlawing" older designs, as we don't want the cure to be worse than the disease.

One thing I did resist was efforts to force the 1986 FF aluminum crushbox standard on FB, as I was in favor of multiple approaches for getting the job done. I'm glad my view prevailed, as now all non-spec formula cars have a variety of field proven and/or certificated options for meeting the requirement. I pushed for this approach since before coming on the CRB, but could not develop a consensus to enact it. Imagine my surprise and delight when a member of the BoD called me one day to say they were ready to move forward, and IIRC not one word of my proposal was changed when the BoD met to consider it.

Stan

The use of peel ply is to enhance secondary bonding,however if you are reinforcing an existing substrate you would have no need for peel ply as the surface is already established so you would put your new kevlar/carbon etc. on over the old surface that why the surface must be free of paint ,roughed up with sandpaper and cleaned with solvent before laminating then do all your lams at once. Peel ply is used between layers when you debulk the initial layers of reinforcement and subsequent layers /cores would be applied in a seperate operation or if you were bonding anothe piece of structure /brackets etc.secondarily.
Dave Craddock

here is a picture of the backend of the formula first and what penetrated my cockpit.
my foam seat got much more impact than i first realized. i took the seat out of the car today, and just was thankful the object coming into the cockpit had that cage.
without it, i imagine it would have gone through my foam seat like a spear.
bead seat is going in as a replacement for sure.
i will post pictures of the other mods to the car when they are done so others can get ideas on what, if anything, they want to do to help this type of impact.

That's still pretty pointy (my .02).

The majority of FV and FST constructors fab up something pretty much as Richard Pare discribed. The Evolution FST has pretty long vertical tubes that extend back much further.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/117/1010140ck9.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1...529a2cc05d.jpg

Again, they are described in the FV/FST world as "shift guards", but if made correctly, they could make life safer.

I had done a lot of work on this car. Including repairing this corner in 2003. Those of you who know what your looking at can see the kevlar.
This car has Kevlar (or what is an Aramid fabric trade name) installed on both side pods. By the mfg. of the parts. It is safe to say who ever built them did what was called for. Two plies 5oz. "Kevlar
Attachment 7966
I have read the posts, and agree with most of the recomendations and disagree with some.I will say that "preform" is "on spot" and do use epoxy as 1st. and only choice when working with Aramids.
My experience in advanced composites began in the mid 70's after leaving Gulfstream and spending 25yrs. with an airline as a composites tech. Then full time race car bodywork with helicopters thrown in. Now I'm GM of Zicron Composites & Laminates. The resins we used to do MD-11/etc. engine inner cowls where designed to use with Kevlar or prepregs. And are not readily available.
My findings from doing bodywork repairs is that most all of it is done with two kinds of resin.
Vinyl or poly esters and the Kevlar laid up with epoxy.
It's all in the weave! The pic of the DB-1 is a common plain weave. If you want a safe ply schedule go with a 5 or 8 harness cloth.
Attachment 7967
I still do all kinds of work at my home cave for the shear maddness of it. After work tonite I was going over this weekends work. 2 DB-2 noses, 2 WRF-1 fenders, 2 DB-1 noses, & ordering some stuff for Autocons Creation LMP1 car.:tire:

Anybody look inside the nose of a FB Speads? Ouch. How do yo spell shish ka-bob?

This forum is great because there is alot of infomation shared, and it never turns into who knows more than who, and childish name calling like i see on so many forums.
this forum is made up of racers who help eachother on and off the track.
that is going to be the point of this post for me.
I now see that my car did in fact have kevlar on the sides, for that i am happy, but i also know first hand, that the kevlar upgrade is not sufficient to prevent a cockpit penetration. I am sure that it helped in some way, just as my old foam seat helped in some way (its smashed at the point of impact), though i know the bead seat would be better.
I guess my question is how much protection is sufficient?
kevlar is better than no kevlar, but i can walk out into my trailer, or go look in the mirror at my side, and see that its not enough.
I am going to go the route of steel.
I am likely going to have some verticle bars welded into the cockpit area, and use some sheets of aluminum as well.
I dont think there are many things that will prevent something as in my incident from coiming through the side of the car, but i am looking at the possibility of getting t-boned by the front of a car at speed. thats what i want to have more protection from.
I think there are many ways to help with this issue, kevlar is an additional layer, but it obviously is not sufficient IMO.
lets figure out more ways to keep all of us safer in these car in this type of event.
the verticle bars on the back of the forumla first looks like a great solution.

.......

Problem I see is with weight...

I believe allot of guys don't make some of these saftey mods, not because of the cost or effort, but because they want to keep the car close to min weight in order to remain competitive.

If the min weight were 50lbs higher (Just to throw an # out there), I would install almost all the great preventitive measures suggested in this thread. My car would sport more Kelvar, more aliumiumn, steel (Where appripiate), More padding, better seat support, bigger fire system, bars in cockpit area, etc...

Racing can not be made 100% safe... however there are proven changes (Mostly available at low cost) that can be made to make the sport safer. A safer sport, should encourage more particiaption, both by existing racers and potential new racers. Finding ways to make the class/sport more appealing is something we always need to be striving for. We are competing with the perception of tin tops being safer.

I personally am going thru my car this winter and making incrrementail improvments (Seat, Kevlar, Padding), but am not doing ALL that I know can be reasonably done, due to not wanting to add the extra weight. As rules are written today, unfortunatly this is a compromise we have to make to remain competitive.

In addition, you don't want to simply mandate addition of certain weighty improvements as part of the rules. Then you will have a situation where racers will spend big dollars to save that weight elsewhere (Uprights, etc), increasing the cost of racing.

My 2c. When I do a bead seat, I plan on using aluminum sides to contain the seat. IMO this is a must so the beads don't bear directly on the frame tubes and "split" around them in an impact. If I fasten these sides to the frame with screws/rivets it should give some protection, even though the fasteners may be in tension and pull thru. With 90 deg. flanges at least the perimeter would be in shear.

I'm tall and fat (6'-2" and 220 lbs) so the first thing I do to try to fit into a FFord is take the seat out and put it in the attic. I usually then make up an aluminium seat so that I'm not sitting directly on the fuel cell cover. For whatever reason, I make it kind of like a NASCAR seat with big sides welded to the back, to stiffen the back and to hold in the insert if I ever make one to fit a smaller driver. I never really thought about it, but the sides of the seat are deep enough to completely protect my sides, usually from around my hips up to my chest. I make the seats from at least .062" 6061-T6, so that they are stiff, and they will act as pretty excellent intrusion protection for your soft bits like kidneys, etc. Food for thought, easy to do if you have some aluminium sheet and a Tig welder, etc. I will probably rely on the Kevlar sides that I'm going to install in my RF85 because with that car, even my aluminium seat won't fit...

Brian