New FF Tire Rule Implemented 3/1/25

Today March 1st, marks the first day that the new FF tire rule will be implemented.

For those that are unaware, if you have a older "rocker arm" car or an even older car with "outboard suspension" - you will be allowed to use the VFF tire or Bias R60 tire or Radial R60 tire (please check the official rules). Cars with Pushrod / Pullrod suspension must continue to use the R60 Radial only.

I'm personally in the camp of put the radials on the DB1, go out and drive the hell out of the car and compete. Others with these type of cars, have gone else where outside of SCCA, because of the illusion that they need a "bias construction tire" for their older car, or others prefer not to diverge from "bias construction tires" for personal preference.

As a group, we have come to the conclusion that this tire rule will please many of those with the "older cars". I hope that this rule will bring many entries for SCCA Major Participation, and the significant amount of time and energy that the Formula F USA group has put into this, will pay off.

SCCA is stepping up their game, realizing that we need less classes and groups at their "premier events" and now provides Livestreaming at many of the Major / HST events. I'm a big fan of the "Bonus Major" format, that gives us better track quality, scheduling, and cost, when compared to the Hoosier Super Tour format.

The SCCA, although a little behind is embarking on a improved plan as they look towards the future and have a clearer idea of what it is going to take, in order to provide a place for the next generation to race. Let's be a part of that journey as a class, and strive for another 50 years of FF!

I applaud all your efforts, and now those that have requested this should show that that was a real issue for them and SHOW UP!

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Originally Posted by Alan Oppel

I applaud all your efforts, and now those that have requested this should show that that was a real issue for them and SHOW UP!

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In my many years of experience I found that very rarely would a rule change have a positive effect upon participation despite the amount of support that was behind it. If there was a positive effect, it was usually short-lived. Let's hope this is the exception.

So there was an SCCA Majors event running with our Crossflow Cup event this weekend at Thunderhill Raceway.:D
I was was racing my new to me '75 Crossle 30F for the first time so I decided to run in the Majors as an FF for the additional track time and maybe to help the national FF car count. Thanks to Tony and the Apex crew for putting the change through to allow me to run with the Hoosier VFF tires.
Since I didn't do a frame up after I bought the car, the extra track time was very needed as the car had issues in every session I ran except the final Majors race. Special thanks goes out to Colin Ivey for fixing my carburetor and Larry Oka for supporting me.

*I did finish first in class but I was the only FF to finish the race, the others were DNS or DNF. There was an initial desire to disqualify me because of the VFF tires. Thanks to Dan Wise for advocating on my behalf and the new tire rule, I was able to keep the victory (I fully realize it wasn't a win in anyway other that it was only 1 of 2 sessions all weekend that I actually took the checkered).

I think that ultimately the rule is not that well written as the VFFs are only allowed as WET TIRES. I had to make the case that I can run wet tires anytime regardless if the chief steward declares a rain race or not.

Again thanks Tony for allowing me to win a national race for the first time since 1990.:cool:

Steve

Says a lot about the state of FF in the SCCA. Thanks a lot to for the Honda saving the class!

I am glad you were able to get out on track with the Majors!

Thank you for getting out to join us, that was the entire goal of implementing this tire rule change in the first place.

Though I was surprised when you said there was some issues with the officials and the way the rule was written. But upon looking at the wording of the GCR, it is different than what was written in the Fastrack for February.

In the Fastrack I read it as listing:

• Dry tires
  
  • ...
  
  
• Wet tires
  
  • ...
  
  
• Or
  
  • VFF tires

Whereas in the March GCR it lists VFF under the wet tires.

Because of this confusion, and not wanting to add any sort of potential complications for more people coming out to race like Steve did, a letter was sent to the CRB to ask for clarification on which version is the proper wording for the rules. As it was very possible someone had a differently formatted page to look at when editing the GCR or the Fastrack. I do not know what day the monthly CRB meeting is, so I do not know when they will read the letter and respond to it.

As said in this thread, you can race on wet tires whenever you wish. But convincing someone of that is never a fun time.

-Tazio Stefanelli

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Originally Posted by SteveG

win a national race for the first time since 1990.:cool:

Steve

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Steve - That is so cool and fun!! At our house, we celebrate good results with a trip the ice cream shop. And thanks for helping out the class, we all know its important.

Sorry about the tire rule confusion but very happy it got worked out. Two things: (1) I put a presentation together that is supposed to be making its way to all the tech inspectors to help them understand the rule - probably has not made it everywhere yet. (2) As Tazio, noted, asking about the language change they made and if they can help tech inspectors understand that wets are allowed anytime - or - maybe they should reword the rule a bit. I'll work to get better clarity.

Taz, thanks for pointing me to this thread.

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Originally Posted by RideMore

Sorry about the tire rule confusion but very happy it got worked out. Two things: (1) I put a presentation together that is supposed to be making its way to all the tech inspectors to help them understand the rule - probably has not made it everywhere yet. (2) As Tazio, noted, asking about the language change they made and if they can help tech inspectors understand that wets are allowed anytime - or - maybe they should reword the rule a bit. I'll work to get better clarity.

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Tony,

I'm a nationally licensed scrutineer that works San Francisco Region. So, everyone at impound was on my side and quite happy I was there. As I said Dan Wise was there as my and the rules advocate. Ultimately the rewording of the rule between FastTrack and the GCR was what caused the confusion, Dan used FastTrack to get me the win, the chief of tech used the GCR to harass me for running wet tires. If the GCR matched FastTrack the wet tire issue would have never come up. And it was friendly harassment, she knows better than piss me off if she expects me to run impound at the next regional race.:)

Steve

Team, the CRB recognized the bit of confusion on the VFF being listed as a rain tire and have agreed on a clarification for us. Please see the attached. It was noted in the May technical bulletin (the attached is a snippet from that document) and will be effective 5/01/2025 in the GCR.

Thank you Steve and CRB and FSRAC.

I have no dog in this discussion, but I am curious about this..
"front tires may not be used as rears"
It was lined out in the first section (presume that's the SPEC TIRE RULE... oddly LINED OUT there,
but then added back at the bottom which seems to apply to ALL ..and "no mixing" of tires. Other than the spec tire, what's the purpose of that? Why not allow fronts to be run on the rear? I can imagine a case where a track configuration might make that an advantage.. but everyone could do it if it wasn't illegal...
Why disallow running 3 wet tires and 1 dry tire? Doubt anyone would do that, but why a rule against it?
Steve, FV80

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Originally Posted by Steve Davis

I have no dog in this discussion, but I am curious about this..
"front tires may not be used as rears"
It was lined out in the first section (presume that's the SPEC TIRE RULE... oddly LINED OUT there,
but then added back at the bottom which seems to apply to ALL ..and "no mixing" of tires. Other than the spec tire, what's the purpose of that? Why not allow fronts to be run on the rear? I can imagine a case where a track configuration might make that an advantage.. but everyone could do it if it wasn't illegal...
Why disallow running 3 wet tires and 1 dry tire? Doubt anyone would do that, but why a rule against it?
Steve, FV80

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There was a period in the late '90's-early '00's where fronts were being used as rears in an effort to reduce drag. It required very careful tire management. When fronts on the rears became overheated there was a significant loss of balance and control.

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

There was a period in the late '90's-early '00's where fronts were being used as rears in an effort to reduce drag. It required very careful tire management. When fronts on the rears became overheated there was a significant loss of balance and control.

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So.. you're saying it's now a rule.. as a safety issue? I was racing in those times and remember it being done. I do NOT recall any safety issues though. It was done in both FF and FV and I never saw or heard of any loss of control issues. I do recall that sometimes the fronts didn't quite work as well in the rear handling wise, they still seemed to work well ENOUGH to maintain control of the car.. even at Mid Ohio - pretty 'handling track'.
I guess the SPEC TIRE rules specified specific tires for front and rear. In the vee rules it says we can run rear tires on the front. No mention of fronts on the rear, but no specific rule about fronts on the rear like in the FF section. Guess that could be argued by 'if it doesn't say you CAN, then you CANNOT.
Steve

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Originally Posted by Steve Davis

So.. you're saying it's now a rule.. as a safety issue? I was racing in those times and remember it being done. I do NOT recall any safety issues though. It was done in both FF and FV and I never saw or heard of any loss of control issues. I do recall that sometimes the fronts didn't quite work as well in the rear handling wise, they still seemed to work well ENOUGH to maintain control of the car.. even at Mid Ohio - pretty 'handling track'.
I guess the SPEC TIRE rules specified specific tires for front and rear. In the vee rules it says we can run rear tires on the front. No mention of fronts on the rear, but no specific rule about fronts on the rear like in the FF section. Guess that could be argued by 'if it doesn't say you CAN, then you CANNOT.
Steve

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This might be a better question for the tire manufacturer. I suspect the rule originates with them. Read into that as you will.

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

This might be a better question for the tire manufacturer. I suspect the rule originates with them. Read into that as you will.

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The tire mfr doesn't write our rule set .. or do they?

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Originally Posted by Steve Davis

The tire mfr doesn't write our rule set .. or do they?

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Not directly, but if a tire manufacturer were to say "front tire X is inappropriate as a rear tire," I think it would be prudent to listen and write an appropriate rule.

The word you're looking for and my not realize it is, "Liability."

When it became En vogue to run fronts on all four corners some of the cars were ill equipped to do so and those that could likely required some manipulation of the rear suspension geometry to deal with the shorter tire and its different spring rate. Given that the FF membership was looking for a spec tire that would be more economical and would improve participation it made sense to the FSRAC to plug that spending opportunity for the class. I don't recall the tire manufacturers being involved in that discussion but could be mistaken.

If memory serves...Coello was the first to put FC fronts on the rear of his VanD. It worked well at Road America if it was cool but not so much anywhere else. Others followed along at RA for the Cat, Sprints and Runoffs.
I'm sure Reid can elaborate since he was a "Skinny" back in those days.

In 2015, after a lot of car development, Rick Payne won the Runoffs in FF using Avon fronts on all four corners.

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Originally Posted by alangbaker

In 2015, after a lot of car development, Rick Payne won the Runoffs in FF using Avon fronts on all four corners.

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With 150+ mph trap speeds.

Being that Dan Campbell’s as good of a formula car engineer as anyone in the States, for half a century now, not at all a surprise.

He was making Herm Johnson fast as blazes in Super Vee when I was 15 — not to mention everything he’s touched since — and I qualify for Medicare this summer.

Ahhh yeah, so we've come full circle back to fronts all around. I feel relevant again!

The standard cantilevered rear tire was a turd. It was heavy and way to much tire for an FF. I was something like 8 lbs lighter, each, I think. I ran the skinny tire at every track and it had more advantage at short tracks than Road America because of how much lighter it was - that's a lot of rotational weight at a pretty long radius you can ditch. The skinny rears made the car get off the corners really well. They were a lot of fun and made the car move around and feel like a real FF (treaded tires...). On tight tracks it was a blast. I am not sure how much of an aero difference it actually made being at the rear of the car and the dirty air is all discombobulated at that point.

The bad part was the cost. It was pure insanity to have an open tire rule on FFs. The skinny rears were good for one race - at most tracks the left rear was one-and-done. I sat out several practice sessions and only did 3 or four laps in some qualifying sessions because I couldn't afford the tires. And because it was an open tire rule, if you wanted to be prepared to run at the front all the time you needed a set of rains, a set of inters, and two sets of drys - maybe some spare left rears. But man, those R35s were a blast! Even though I knew I couldn't get radials on my car, I helped heard the cats to get the radial as the first spec tire after Tom Valet took a lot of preliminary attacks the year before and set the groundwork with his full-hearted attempt. It was a move in the right direction.

There were no safety concerns. Hoosier's quality is fantastic. The tire was meant for the front of an FC (which most people ran as front tires on an FF) and when it was put on the rear of an FF it worked just fine. To me, that's a testament to how well made modern tires are and how much abuse they can take.

If memory serves me correctly, Tony Coello was the first to run it but I think he and myself might have come up with it at the same time. My 92 was not cooperative at first and it took me several test weekends to get it to work. I think he got it out on track a year sooner.

Marc Blanc tried doing super skinnies (the 6" conventional FF front) on all fours on his DB6 but I don't think it was enough tire to last a race. They heated up a bit quicker so starts were decent, but after 3 or 4 laps they were pretty toast. I tried it once, and gave up. Marc stuck with it but I think he bailed on it after several weekends.

Good times.